Pagan Coffee Talk
We will discuss topics related to the Pagan community. All views are from a traditionalist's point of view. The conversations are unscripted (no preparations have been made ahead of time). A special thanks to Darkest Era for the use of their songs: Intro- The Morrigan, Exit - Poem to the Gael. Check them out at http://darkestera.net/.
Pagan Coffee Talk
A Tapestry of Spiritual Exploration and Acceptance
How can a family of mismatched souls transcend traditional labels and politics to form bonds as strong as blood ties? Join us on Pagan Coffee Talk as we sit down with Papa Onyx, who offers a captivating glimpse into his unique spiritual family. Papa Onyx shares how his circle defies the norm with minimal rituals and no formal acceptance process, creating a space where each member interprets the divine through their own cultural lens. Unveiling the layers of this unconventional group, Papa Onyx challenges our understanding of community, spirituality, and enduring connection beyond societal confines.
In an exploration of spiritual identity, we recount a compelling interaction with a young woman grappling with her own spiritual uncertainties. Her story becomes a springboard for discussing the often solitary nature of spiritual journeys, where the path back to oneself is deeply personal and unbound by traditional labels. The conversation stretches further to embrace diverse spiritual and philosophical perspectives. Papa Onyx and his family exemplify an openness to all forms of spiritual exploration, respecting the validity of every individual's journey and reminding us that the quest for understanding the divine is as varied as humanity itself.
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Speaker 2:We're talking today with Papa Onyx about his family tradition. Alright, the idea that I have a history you know in the pre-record we started talking about history is moving forward. I agree with you. I agree with you, lord Knight, history is moving forward and you know in the pre-record you kind of just drop the ball right in front of me and and unfortunately you know me too well if you drop the ball in front of me I have to pick it up and run with it and you put me on the spot and we'll have this conversation later because you've extended the offer for me to come down, me and my lady, to come down and be with you on Samhain and we've accepted and I'm gracious, I'm grateful for that.
Speaker 2:One of the things about we have a little bit of a different, we have some different terminology. So if I throw some terminology at you that you don't use, then draw me back in. We have different terminology. We don't call ourselves a tradition, we call ourselves a family, and one of the reasons we do that is when you're born into a family. There is no mechanism for removal. It seems that in more especially today, more and more, if you're initiated into a tradition, there's a lot of politics. There's a lot of. I like this person. I don't like this person. This person has done something that ticks off. What's our rating here?
Speaker 3:It's put out for adults only.
Speaker 2:Okay, so okay, we've got too many people, this person has done this and I don't like them. And there's too many politics. There's politics here, there's politics here. I've blacklisted, we've blacklisted, we've done this and it seems like the new PC term is warlock. I'm warlock, this person's warlock.
Speaker 2:Well, in our family, just like in a biological family, if you're born into a family, you don't get out of it, I don't care how much you don't like your brother, your brother's, your brother, there is no mechanism for release, there's no mechanism for relief on that. Once you come into our family, once you're chosen, and you have chosen to become a part of that family, then that's it. You don't get out, you can't get out. You may not be liked within the family, you might be the black sheep of the family, but you're still family and those bonds don't change, those commitments don't change. You might be reprimanded, you'll say you might be pushed into the corner of a pivotal slingshot, but you're still family regardless. So we don't call it a tradition, we call it a family, all on a side, tangent, and people that know me know that I'm really, really good about that. Another thing we don't do is we don't go out looking. So we operate a little bit differently. We talk about ourselves as a family of the thrice denied and I won't go into that. I've heard your talks quite often about there's things we don't talk about. Right, we are a family of the thrice denied. Those who know know. Those who don't know don't need to know, right. The other thing that we talk about is we don't take students. We may, you know, members of our family may teach classes and I guess, if you would call it that, you know if we have a, if we have a group of people in a classroom, I guess technically you call those students, but that's not what we call students. We just don't take students. Another thing we don't do is, interestingly, a lot of people when they do get to know us, they realize that we don't have specified rituals. We do, but there's very few of them, very, very few of them. We also another thing, and I was listening to several of your I keep up with a lot of your broadcasts, a lot of your podcasts and everything, and one of them that touched very close to some things that we do and we believe One of the podcasts, oswin, actually centered around where and how you came to the craft, the things that we in our family talk about, how you came from Christianity and understanding the underlying mystery of what God or the divine represents to you, or how God and the divine presents to you.
Speaker 2:It's very central to a lot of the ways we look at things. Our family is actually not specifically or in straight actuality pagan or neo-pagan. There are different iterations that actually present in different ways. Each head of the family chooses how that iteration presents, chooses how that iteration presents. So while this iteration led by me is presenting very specifically neo-pagan, another iteration might present neo-pagan-ish or pagan-esque and it may look a little bit different. Each iteration, each head of the iteration or each head of that family chooses to represent or to bring forward that mystery of that. Here we go. I'm trying to work around things that cannot be talked about while at the same time talking about them. Each family iteration chooses how to present or how to guide toward those mysteries based on the current culture.
Speaker 2:Icons, metaphors Metaphors is a word that I use a lot. Don't get lost in the metaphor. Each story is different to each person and how that story presents and how they find themselves understanding or trying to understand something that is not understandable. I believe that we are all looking for, and at the same, ineffable mystery. And I believe that we are all. We all understand it's there and we all feel it and that, regardless of how we try to understand it and when I say we, I'm talking about all of us, all of humanity, throughout history, throughout every culture, I don't care what year, what part of the globe, what culture, it doesn't matter we all feel it. We feel that pull, we feel that draw toward something. What that something is is ineffable. And as soon as we try to describe it, as soon as we try to name it, as soon as we try to put any adjective or any explanation to it, we've already put God in a box, we've already limited it. As soon as we try to picture it, as soon as we put any adjective to it, we've already limited it. But we still try, we're driven to try. We're driven to try and I believe that that numinosity, that numinous which in and of itself already limits it, that numinosity is what we're looking for, that's what we're driven for. But just because we understand that we cannot understand doesn't mean we shouldn't try to understand that striving toward that understanding is the journey and the journey is the destination and that journey is what enriches us and that everyone's journey is different and that's the beauty of it. And that as long as we respect that each person's journey is different and that as long as that journey fulfills the soul, broadens the horizon and fulfills the soul and builds the heart, then that is the right journey for that person. That doesn't mean it's the right journey for me, but as long as it fulfills the heart, fulfills the soul for that person, and that journey is not impinging on the journey of another, then that's a good journey for that person and that's what I feel is a good path.
Speaker 2:I was approached by a young lady young to me, which doesn't narrow the field a whole lot, but I was approached by a young lady in a shop, a medical shop. We were talking, a medical shop, we were talking, a few of us were talking, and she comes to me and she says I don't know what path I'm on. I've looked all over the place. I've looked at the Celtic path, I've looked at the Norse path, I've looked at this, I've looked at that and I've looked at that. And I looked at her and I said hon, it's easy to know what path you're on. It's this very simple thing. She goes, really. I said, yeah, just look at your feet, she goes. What I said look down, look at your feet, she goes. What do you mean? I said look at your feet. What path are you walking? Because that's the path you're on. What other path you're walking? That's the path you're on. She goes. Well, I don't know what to call it.
Speaker 2:I said well, therein lies a rub. Every single one of us are looking for a label to put on the path that we're on, because you're on your own path. You can be on no other path, but you're on. I said the label of your path is nothing more than the label, and that's the starting point for the discussion when you're trying to explain what you believe. That's all it is. It's just a label, it's just a starting point for the discussion. It doesn't matter what you call it, it's your path.
Speaker 1:Well, and I think a lot of times we get stuck on the labels. It's too many people. Well, what do I call it? What do I call it? Don't matter what you call it, you don't even have to call it anything, it's your path.
Speaker 3:You see, most people nowadays seem to be obsessed. I have to have a label yes, that's what we were coming. We were all like no, we all reject all labels. What happened?
Speaker 2:I don't know what the obsession is with labels. I don't, I don't realize, I don't understand what the obsession is with labels. Everybody's got to have a label and I think that one of the problems we have, one of the challenges. I don't like the word problem. I always go to it. I guess it's because it's programmed into me about culture. I don't like the word problem. I'm trying to reprogram myself to say challenge or hurdle or something like that, the whole NLP thing, right. But one of the challenges that I see in today's world is that everybody seems to have to have a label, but they reject the fact that if I say that I'm Celtic well, no, not really. So they had to put an adjective on that. Well, I'm Neo-Celtic? Well, no, not really. I'm Paleo-Neo-Celtic Well, not really, no, no, well, not really. And then they sort no, not really, no, no, not really. That's why we've got 15 billion types of Celtics or 15 billion types of North. No, just be you. This little joke. In a world where you can be anything, be yourself.
Speaker 1:Exactly.
Speaker 2:Unless you can be Batman, be yourself Exactly, unless you can be Batman, always be Batman.
Speaker 3:There was that song that came out and it was I'm trying to be nobody else but me. That was real popular. Yes, I'm sorry, that's what we're talking about. Just guess, be yourself.
Speaker 2:Here's an interesting thought that I threw out many, many years ago and it seemed to catch on for a little while and then people rejected it, of course, probably because it fell out of my mouth. You know how that is. Of course it can't be true. You know, our spiritual path is unique. Everyone's spiritual path is unique. Everyone's spiritual path is unique. And we can only walk it ourselves. So doesn't that make everybody's spiritual path the hermit's path?
Speaker 3:Yep, yes, it does.
Speaker 2:Everybody's spiritual path is lonely. It is by yourself, it is only on your own. It is the hermit's path, and everybody's path is different, but everybody's path eventually leads to the same place, and that same place is back to yourself.
Speaker 2:Because if we look at a lot of texts, if you look at a lot of texts, if you look at a lot of texts you're not going to pull out references and everything but if we look at, if we look at the charge of the goddess right, and I'll paraphrase you're not having it in front of me and and and both, both, both you, oswin and Knight, both correct me on the exact wording of this, but it's the charge of God says something to the effect of you know, know that you're seeking shall avail ye none, unless you know the mystery, that that which you seek without never find.
Speaker 2:but then you know exactly yes you know, you look all over the place. It's not in the cupboard, it's not in your friend's eyes, it's not in your lover's arms, it's not in that circle, it's not in your friend's eyes, it's not in your lover's arms, it's not in that circle, it's within. Uh, she's there, she's been there since the beginning and she's there. You know she will be there then. She's that which is attained at the end of desire. Um, if you look in the bible, there's plenty of references about the kingdom of heaven lies within. You know, uh, even when we talk about you know a and that's another thing that I get on my soapbox about. Everybody has this knee-jerk reaction to Christianity. One of the wisest people in the world that I, in my opinion, has said it's not your Christian, it's not your Christ that I have a problem with, it's your Christians.
Speaker 3:What was the old saying God, please save me from your followers or Jesus, please save me from your followers.
Speaker 2:You know, even in one of the most awful, I shouldn't say that, oh my goodness, I shouldn't say it that way. But if you look at the translations and the translations and mistranslations and the misinterpretations, even the King James Version, if you look at that and you just take the red letters away, just take the red letters away, there is not a whole lot there that I can take that issue with. There's not much. Probably. It's been since Christ was a corporal since I've looked at it, but I'm not remembering too much.
Speaker 2:I'm not remembering anything in the red letters that I can take issue with, but by the same token I pick up LaVey's work and if you take the Carnian, speak out of it. You know you take the Carney, speak out of it. There's not a whole lot there I can take issue with either. You know, if you take the Carney out of it, lavey was a Carney and he came from a great point of view.
Speaker 2:But if you take the Carney speak out of it, you talk about things like you know, you don't disrespect a man in his own house, kind of stuff. I can't take issue with that, you know. I tell people that one of the main differences between if you can call LeVay's work, the theology behind LeVay's work because the fact that he's, you know, non-theist or atheist, he's not non-theist, he's atheist. No, actually I guess you would consider him non-theist because he's humanist. I guess that would be non-theist.
Speaker 2:But if you take LaVey's work and you boil it down, take the carne out of it and look at what he's actually saying For those out there, for listeners out there, I'm assuming most people who listen to Pagan Coffee Talk know who LaVey is.
Speaker 2:But just in case, anton LaVey wrote the work that underpins the Church of Satan. If you take LaVey's work and you read it and the reason I say the carny is because Anton LaVey was a carny and a lot of his work is written from that perspective, so he's trying to get under the skin of people. He's intentionally writing from that point of view, especially in his early work. So if you take the carny language out and you look at what he's saying, there's not a whole lot I can take issue with. I tell people that one of the major differences between the way I look at the world and the way he looks at the world is he is a non-theist and I am a theist. I believe that there is a divine and he believes there isn't. If you look at it from those two perspectives, there's not a whole lot of difference in the way he looks at the world and the way I look at the world. That's probably going to get me shot pretty hard.
Speaker 1:Well, I was going to ask how has that shaped the way you present your family?
Speaker 2:I don't present my family, that's the entire point. I don't present my family, that's the entire point. My family does not publicly present. And there's a reason for that, a very definite reason for that Because we feel that everybody, tradition, every religion, every presentation, every journey to the divine that brings fulfillment to the soul is valid for that person. And we, going back to the family of the thrice denied, we don't present the family.
Speaker 2:Uh, and that's a very critical difference in the way we go about doing things. We, we don't do anything publicly. We're, you know, and there's a big difference between, you know, we're not all secret, squirrel or anything like that. Um, you know, you know, we are very free to join traditions, to join churches, to join synagogues, to join whatever there are family members who are members of the Church of Satan. Because the Church of Satan, being secular humanists, secular humanists, the Church of Satan believes that the highest part of creation they don't call it creation, but the highest part of us is us. If that fulfills the soul, if that fulfills the part of the numinous seeking, then so be it. If that makes the person fulfilled by feeling that Appalachian came out of building and building.
Speaker 1:It's that southern speak.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you gotta get the mountain out. You can take the boy out of the mountain, but you can't take the mountain out of the boy Right.
Speaker 2:If that fulfills the feeling that we are special, if that is the fulfillment of that seeking of the numinosity and that brings that numinosity to them, then so be it. Luminosity to them, then so be it. If that's where they are on their path, that is what brings that blossom of spirituality to that person, then so be it. Who am I to question that? If this person feels that they are more comfortable in their spirituality and this may sound like a contradiction, but follow me on this If this person feels that feeling that humanity is the pinnacle and that is what makes them feel that numinosity, feeling like they are the epitome, they are the top, humanity is the top. That's what makes them feel special and that's what individualizes themselves in that Maslow's hierarchy, then who am I to tell them any different?
Speaker 2:let them as long as they're not stepping on anybody else, as long as they're not out there beating down Christians and beating down Muslims and beating down pagans and beating down Muslims and beating down pagans and beating down whatever you know, and let them. Let them, and the divine love them for being out there fighting for my right of separation of church and state. Divine, love them because they're out there fighting for my constitutional rights, right? You know, whether I, whether I agree with how they're doing it or not, they're doing a good job. They're doing a good thing. So how does that play into you know? How does that play into my beliefs and my family? Well, I disagree, you know, I disagree. I believe, I feel, I know that there is a divine presence I grok To use a science fiction term dating myself here.
Speaker 2:I don't believe. I know I grok, but am I going to trash them for their belief that there isn't? No, because I've met some Levaeans that know that there is no divinity as steadfastly as I know. There are Right that there is and at the end of the day I have to understand that neither one of us have any data to prove the other one wrong.
Speaker 3:Trust me, we understand it is a stalemate argument. You can't prove it one way or the other. I mean, we realize this, but it's fun trying sometimes.
Speaker 2:And as long as you're talking to someone and debating and arguing with someone arguing in the classical sense, not the verbal fight Right, and a lot of people don't understand that in today's world, repetition and volume does not win an argument. You know, argument does not mean in its classical sense verbal fight. But as long as you're arguing with someone that has more than two living brain cells, it's, it's very fun, it's I enjoy a good argument. You know where you're attacking the idea and not the person let me ask you have you noticed this?
Speaker 3:it seems to be that people seem to have gotten it into their head that if people don't believe the way I do, somehow that affects the way I believe. Oh, absolutely, I've seen that. I don't understand, because how does my beliefs affect you?
Speaker 2:I just recently did a blog I don't like that word, blog when I use it done a book on logical fallacies and how they play out in paganism on my site, onyx Ponders, might be very interesting. If you haven't checked it out, you probably have, but if you haven't checked it out, it's onyx ponders and it talks about some of that kind of touches on that tangentially.
Speaker 2:And you know it talks about ad hominem attacks, it talks about straw man, it talks about no true Scotsman, it talks about a lot of logical fallacies. And what I did there is took the classical logical fallacies that a lot of us back in the day, that a lot of us at back in the day, uh, young man, um, logical balances and things, especially those of us that that that did debate classes and things like that and rhetoric classes, uh, did in high school. And then of course they moved it into university classes because, you know, kids just weren't paying attention. And now kids in university are not paying attention either. But in rhetoric and debate, philosophy and things like that, we study logical fallacies, slippery slope and all this kind of stuff.
Speaker 2:But one of the things we haven't done, or at least I haven't seen happen, is how those classical logical fallacies play into neo-pagan philosophy and thought. So what I did is I took those classical logical fallacies and took that template and played it over into how our arguments happen in the postmodern neo-pagan world, into how our arguments happen in the postmodern neo-pagan world, because, let's face it, we're in postmodern neo-pagan thought right now. It took us 70 years to get there. 70 years, can you figure that? 70 years.
Speaker 3:Well, I've never seen we move fast.
Speaker 2:History moving, moving Right and we're starting to coalesce things. Well, I never said we move fast, start the history moving, moving Right, and we we're starting to coalesce things Right. And you know, we still like to just pluck one out of the air the no true Scotsman fallacy. We see that all the damn time. For those of you that are not familiar with the no true Scotsman fallacy, we see it all the time right, real witches, don't do that.
Speaker 2:Why do you do that when I'm over with drinking? Real witches don't do that. Well, I've been a real witch since I stepped into an initiatory circle back in November, and I've done that since day one. Your parents weren't even born when I stepped into a circle and you're telling me I'm not a real witch.
Speaker 1:All right, Y'all need some coffee. I need coffee. Thanks for listening. Join us next week for another episode. Pagan Coffee Talk is brought to you by Life Temple and Seminary.
Speaker 4:Please visit us at lifetempelseminaryorg for more information as well as links to our social media Facebook, discord, twitter, youtube and Reddit. The end of our day, so walk with me till morning breaks. And so it is the end of our day. So walk with me till morning.
