Representing Missoula County and helping victims find justice: A glimpse into the Missoula County Attorney’s Office

Missoula County Attorney Kirsten Pabst shares her personal journey of becoming an elected official. The constituency elected her to represent the County both in civil and criminal cases, and she explains how her office works to increase transparency and use resources efficiently, and how the office works with community partners to ensure all participants in the system are treated with respect and human dignity. 

County Attorney Pabst’s team often deals with emotionally difficult cases, and she paints a visual picture to help listeners understand the work they do and how their lives are often enriched by helping others through a difficult case. 

From prosecuting felonies to enforcing zoning and building code violations, the Missoula County Attorney’s Office serves as legal adviser to county commissioners, all elected officials of Missoula County, the Health Department, Community and Planning Services and all other county departments. 

The Missoula County Attorney is a public prosecutor and oversees prosecution for all felonies in Missoula County and a portion of the misdemeanor crimes. The office is responsible for criminal prosecutions, youth court proceedings, special victims unit cases, child protection cases, involuntary commitments, guardianships, junk vehicles, community decay and others.

Learn more about the Missoula County Attorney's Office at http://missoula.co/calibrate.

Thank you to Missoula's Community Media Resource for podcast recording support!

Transcript

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Well, welcome everyone back to another edition of Tip of the Spear. I am County Commissioner Dave Strohmaier. I am joined by County Commissioner Juanita Vero and our very own Missoula County Attorney, Kirsten Pabst. Welcome, Kirsten. Thank you very much. Thank you for having me. Oh, we're delighted to have you. So we've been having conversations with various department heads, other independently elected officials, others in the community who have expertise in various topics that folks might be interested in. And one of the little known facts that is here in county government in Missoula County is that there are 11 independently elected officials and you are one of them. So I guess if you want to just start off, talk to us a little bit about who you are or what inspired you to get into public service here in Missoula County government and anything else that will give folks a window into Kirsten Pabst. You bet. So I am the Missoula County Attorney, and in that role I represent the Board of County Commissioners and the County in all of its civil actions and all the departments, as well as take the responsibility for prosecuting all of the felonies that occur within Missoula County. So is the county attorney, the equivalent of what you might hear some folks refer to as a district attorney. Yes, but it's that and some, Oh, OK. The district attorneys generally are the prosecutors, and I think that's what people associate my role with as well, because that's what makes the news on a daily basis. This trial in that trial, but county attorneys in Montana, it's a little bit unique in that we have the added responsibility of the civil representation, which takes up a whole wing of our office, as you know. Let's see here. I was first working for Missoula County back in 1994 as a legal intern. Dusty Deschamps hired me and I absolutely loved it. I had been, prior to that, living in Great Falls. I was a single parent on public assistance and I was waiting tables part time at a little Italian deli, and one of the waitresses asked me to cover a shift for her and I thought, Oh yeah, sure, I needed the hours and I said, What do you do? And she goes, Well, I'm going to school and learning how to be a paralegal, and I'm like, Well, what's a paralegal? And she explained it to me and I thought, you know, I might be able to do that. It definitely would be better than what I'm doing now. And so I enrolled in the paralegal program and really fell in love with the law. We started doing some pro bono work for victims of domestic violence, and I was working under the mentorship of this really incredible woman from Chicago who was an attorney and had moved here and was a legislator. And she really took me under her wing and said, Look, you know, I think you need to go to law school. And I grew up kind of in rural Montana where we were sort of the folks that ran from the cops. Anyways, I ended up in law school. I went here. It was the only school that I applied to and right away got this incredible internship with Dusty Deschamps, and I was sort of hooked. I love the work and knew that I was sort of born to to be a prosecutor and born to do this. Most of the time since then, I've actually been a prosecutor. I took a brief time off back in 2012 through 2014. But other than that, I've been here at the County Attorney's Office. So why is the county attorney an elected position? Can you explain that? And then, I guess explain how it impacts the work you do to? Yeah, for sure. That's a great question. A lot of DA's across the country are elected officials, and a lot of them are appointed as well, and I see the big difference. My boss is the constituents of Missoula County and the people that I work for. It's sort of bottom up supervision and it tends to localize what's going on in the DA's office a little more than in offices where the DA is appointed. So, yeah, I answer to the constituents here in Missoula County, when I first decided to run, the constituents said that they wanted an office that worked together with community partners. And so we did that. Constituents said that they wanted an office that would use resources efficiently, and we've really made a huge effort to do that. The constituents said that they wanted the county attorney's office to treat all participants in the system with respect and with human dignity, and I'm really proud of the work that we've done in that regard. And then finally, they said they wanted an office that believed in transparency. And so we've taken pretty significant steps in not just being proud of the work that we do, but showing the community the work that we do and talking about it and answering questions and being as cooperative with the media as we absolutely can be. So how what's your experience like with or insight into smaller counties in Montana that also work in the same framework of government as us and that we have independently elected officials serving in different roles? Are they able to sustain a full-time county attorney? And in some of these very sparsely populated counties? There are several counties in Montana where they have a half-time county attorney. There are others where one county attorney represents three different counties. Really? Yeah. Well, let's let's talk about a bit about your office here and staff in Missoula County. You guys have a tremendous amount of responsibility and diversity in terms of what you do from civil to criminal. Maybe breakdown for us, just just what your what your office and staff on an org chart looks like. We are up to about 46 employees, which is 10 more than we had when I took over in 2014, and we're continually growing. Unfortunately, we're sort of following the spike in in crime and adjusting accordingly. So I have about 13 attorneys that do criminal prosecution. That ranges from justice court traffic offenses, DUIs. We've got a drug prosecutor that really focuses on drug trafficking organizations. We work with HIDA. I've got a special victims unit that now has soon to be five full time prosecutors that deal with special victims, which means children abused women, victims of violent crime and things like that. And then we have a general crimes. We call it General Crimes Unit that deals with a lot of criminal endangerment homicides, more major crimes that don't involve family. Talk to us a little bit about some of the major challenges you're facing right now and just given your long tenure in service, public service here in Missoula County, how those challenges have maybe changed over time. I would say our greatest challenges right now are substance use disorder and domestic violence. And sadly, those things are not new. They're not emerging concerns. They have been there since the very beginning. We are seeing a shift in the substances that people are addicted to. I think that when I started, we saw most of our crimes that involve substances. It was things like alcohol usually and or a combination of other drugs. And in the last, I would say, five years, we've had such a spike in the use and abuse of methamphetamine, as well as heroin, which is slowly surpassing methamphetamine. And then lately, in the last year, it's fentanyl and carfentanil, which is so much stronger of an opioid than even heroin that we're seeing a huge a large increase in the number of overdose deaths and overdose hospitalizations. So substance use disorder, although it changes its profile from year to year, has been one of the consistencies that we've seen over the years. Interpersonal violence is not new, either. Family violence, domestic abuse, whatever you want to call it, it has always been something that we've dedicated a huge chunk of our resources to because it's so pervasive. But what I've noticed, at least anecdotally lately, is that although the numbers proportionately haven't increased that much, the severity of those crimes tends to increase with use of drugs like methamphetamine. When I was going to ask this a little bit later, but it seems like a good segway right now. How has COVID-19 played into some of these challenges that you've described? Has it exacerbated some of what you might have seen pre-pandemic? No correlation? What are your thoughts? There's definitely a correlation. We have experienced quite a spike since the pandemic started, and it's sort of exponentially getting bigger and bigger. That's not unusual. That's consistent with the data that we're seeing around Montana as well as around the country. But it's obviously concerning, especially particularly with the domestic homicides that we've seen lately and then the tragic homicide case that we saw over the weekend. Going back to challenges in the office, not just the environment that you have to work in, but can you talk about shortages and stress on your staff? Yeah. So our staff is really, really dedicated, hardworking, talented group of attorneys and paralegals and legal assistance and victim witness coordinators. They're really dedicated and they're dealing with subject matter that is, I'd say, more challenging than the average job. They come to work and one day they could be poring over crime scene photos. The next day they could be going to a crime scene. The next day, they're interviewing a child who's been abused by a person who they love or admire, and it's the kind of work that really can take a toll on you after a while. It's difficult and challenging like any job. And so we have kind of some cool, unique programs to deal with that and to help people process it in a healthy way. And we're trying to increase the longevity of our prosecutors and we want people to make a career out of it. But we also want that career to be rewarding and sustainable for them. With the numbers, the way they are and government jobs, the way they are, it's hard to attract and retain talented people. We've been pretty good at that lately. It's been a little bit more challenging, but it's one of the great things about living in Missoula is that when there's a need or a gap, we kind of all stand shoulder to shoulder so that we can address that need and fill it. And I so appreciate that about working in Missoula County government. It's just been, it's neat to see how much we care about each other and how much we want to take care of each other. So you've done a lot of work that's been recognized nationally. Do you want to share some highlights or how that's impacted Missoula or this region? Sure. So we have a group called Secondary Trauma Group, and it's basically a group where my line prosecutors go and they learn skills to be more resilient. They learn how to work with difficult subject matter. They learn how to understand and work with people that are in the throes of trauma. And it's just been a really great program. We've been on hold for a while because of COVID, but in 2017 we won a National NACO Award, National Association of Counties, where they recognized it as a really important program that was worthy of repetition. And then, unbeknownst to me, they submitted that to another round of scrutiny where it received one of the top new government programs or something like that. So we got two awards for that program, which was really incredible. Because of that, then the National District Attorneys Association reached out to me because they had been experiencing across the country sort of the same things that our office was, with prosecutors really burning out and having professional collapses because of the difficult subject matter that they deal with. And so they had me come and give a presentation to their board. And then they like that so much, they, I'm just so honored, they invited me to be part of their board. So now I'm the vice president of the executive board of the National DA's Association and chair of the Well-Being Task Force, which is a really active group. I've got people on my task force from all over the country, which is one of the benefits of this whole pandemic is that we've learned how to meet without actually meeting. We're doing some really neat things through that task force that are benefiting prosecutors across the country. Last year, we received another NACO award for our Calibrate program, which is our prosecution led diversion program. Our coordinator as Ray Riser, who has just years and years of experience in this kind of work, and it's Montana's first formal prosecution led diversion program, so we're really proud of it. What that does is it, Ray, through some sort of vetted screening tools, identifies people that would end up in the criminal justice system, but who probably don't need the intervention of the criminal justice system. And so he scoops them up early. We take them off the criminal justice track, get them the resources that they need. The program has been hugely successful. When did Calibrate start? 2019. Oh, great. So we're still in the early stages, but it's been successful. Yeah, and we were shooting for 20 participants. We're almost up to 40 now, and we've just gotten such great feedback from people who have benefited from it. And you know, it's this idea of focus deterrence where if you take the criminal justice dollars that you have and of course, there's never enough, but if you focus them on a group where it's going to make a difference and away from folks like this who probably don't need a whole lot of intervention and you're directing more supervision or even correctional resources towards those highest risk offenders. The data shows that the recidivism rates in both of those groups improved, so it was an idea that we'd started, Lucy and I kind of started working on back in in 2016, and we rolled it out with some help from the Center for Court Innovation and the Association of American Prosecutors. And it's actually, now, it's not just an idea, it's a living, breathing, thriving program that is doing exactly what we hoped it Would without divulging any names. Is there anything can you paint a picture for us of the sort of person who would be a good candidate for this type of diversion? Oh, absolutely. So say someone is experiencing hunger and is unable to, for whatever reason, get the resources that they need and engage in maybe some theft or stealing some food or resources or money from an employer. What we're looking at are these lower risk first time offenders who don't need serious court intervention. With this tool, we're able to find those folks and then have them pay restitution, have them do some mediation. We definitely get the victims involved. If there are victims of those crimes, get their consent. Would the victims need to drop the charges? I'm not sure if I'm using the right terminology here, but... Yeah, and so we if the victim isn't interested in this program, we don't do it. We need we need their buy in. So we need the suspect and then and their attorney to agree to it, the victim to agree to it. But I think one of the myths about criminal justice is that we just fight all the time and that we're diabolically opposed. There's winners and losers. And the reality is is that 99 percent of the work that we do is trying to help people and sitting down with the other side and coming up with a solution that is going to keep this person from committing another crime. So it's similar to what we do. It's just that we try to do it earlier where it makes a bigger, we get a bigger bang for our buck. It really helps the person in the long run. I want to jump back to what you were saying about resiliency and again, thinking of your staff and attorneys and that of secondary trauma work. What? What are some of the skills or what have you seen in the last 10 years? What are examples of tools they've been able to use or your office has been able to deploy? Oh, that's a great question. So we actually have what we call the toolbox of resiliency, and it has four kinds of tools and it one is what what we traditionally think of as self-care, taking time off using your vacation, physical exercise, setting boundaries. But then there's this new group of what I call like the modern self-care, which is teaching your self resiliency, skills and neuroplasticity in ways that you can bring hacks, if you will, for lack of a better term, things that you can do to keep your own brain and body healthy. I need an example. I need. I need brain hacks. I think it's a little too complex to go into right now, but I We'll definitely I think she's saying we're not smart enough to deploy a brain hack. Well, OK. So the peer support teaching people how to support each other, whether it's formal or informal, that's a huge part of getting through this work is being able to when you're having a really bad day or something bad happened in trial to be able to sit down with your colleagues and talk about it and get support in a way that's not just I have a story that's better than yours. You know, you're really teaching people listening skills. It's made me a better listener. It's made me a better support for the folks that are going through some of those tough trials. And then the fourth is what is the leadership part of the box, the responsibilities of leaders of healthy organizations to provide that plausible work environment for people? Thank you for sharing that. Yeah. Well, I guess one other question I have before. Maybe we wrap up here is is there anything you can point to is something that really brings you joy in the work that you do. And conversely, what might one of your greatest frustrations in this role be? I think the hardest part of this job, and it's probably not a surprise, is dealing with the human tragedy that we see every day. People are pretty awful to other people and we see the worst of it. And that can be really heartbreaking, particularly with children, people that don't have a choice in their situation and heartbreaking for even those that do. But just dealing with that, humanity's worst day in and day out can really wear on your soul. But conversely, it's working with some of the those folks and seeing them through to the other side. That is the most rewarding part of this work. I'll give you a couple of examples. I ran into a young man on Higgins Avenue not too long ago, and he had been the victim of a crime when he was a child. He recognized me. I did. I mean, he kind of looked familiar and he was just grinning from ear to ear. And he said, I just want you to know that I'm doing really good. I'm in school, I'm going to graduate and just thank you so much for your support when I need it the most. I'll tell you one more quick story. After a trial of a teenage boy, he was a victim of a crime. When we spent a lot of time together really got to know him, and after the trial, I came into my office and I had missed him. But he had dropped off a bunch of gifts for me and it was like some pennies and some candy and a crushed flower that I don't know where he picked. But and he left this handwritten note that is the thank you for believing me. You know, he didn't care if we won or lost the trial. You know, he didn't care how good my cross-examination was. He didn't care. You know how great and tight the jury instructions were. He just said, thank you for believing me. And so those moments where we can really connect with other people and other humans, and just because another human was awful to them, put them in my path. And so I get to use my skills and my gifts to connect with them, these amazing, beautiful people that I otherwise would never have had a chance to meet. And I just have to say that not only, you know, they say their lives are better because of our meeting, but it's made my life better too. Really powerful. Great stories, Specifically with Missoula, Missoula County, good, bad, ugly. Can you share what is it about your job here in Missoula County versus if you were anywhere else that is great or it's really difficult because it's Missoula County? Well, I love everything about my job, to be honest with you. I love this community that we serve. I think we're different and unique and vibrant in ways that other places aren't. I feel honored to get to live here. I feel honored to get to work here. Mostly, I just have to tell you that I have to take a minute to say thanks to my hardworking staff. They work their butts off. They're dedicated, they're smart, they're kind humans. They're nice to each other. They're nice to the people that they work with. They're just really incredible public servants. They're committed to getting up every single day to do everything in their power, to make Missoula a safer place, and I'm awfully proud of them. Anything you'd like to share that we've not covered for our listening audience resources, programs, anything else. We've got a couple other programs that we didn't really talk about. We've got Montana's first criminal mediation program that is pretty cool. It's alternative dispute resolution has shown to be a cost effective way to resolve civil trials for years. And now we're taking that into the criminal realm when the victims agree that it might be helpful. We have our Conviction Integrity Initiative, which is this idea that we're all humans and occasionally we make mistakes. And so we're willing with open eyes to look at old cases where the Innocence Project has concerns. And we've sat down together a couple of times and talked about old cases, and we're willing to to do the right thing, even if it is years later. We've got our special victims unit, which is one of the model designs, because it's so great. It's so great, no. Yes. Yeah, it really is. We've have we've worked on this process and it's sort of still evolving as we go. But we've gone from what was traditionally one position in the office to now eight full-time employees doing the work. Obviously, we can always use more, but we've got four full time prosecutors, hopefully soon to be five. We have a victim witness coordinator. We have another victim witness coordinator. We have an investigator as well as a supervisor in that unit. So I'm just really proud of the work that those people do. Well, thanks for everything that the County Attorney's Office here in Missoula County does. Pass on our thanks to your staff. Thanks for everything that you do here And you're welcome. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks for your support.