The Shifting Landscape of American Funerary Practice - Dustin Grim

We all know the aphorism about the unavoidability of death and taxes. On this episode of ReligionWise, we consider the former with funeral director Dustin Grim. Among other topics, this conversation reflects on changes in religious affiliation in the contemporary world and how these changes affect funerary practice. We also ask what these changes can tell us about shifting perceptions of the body, giving us a window into how people think about death itself.

Transcript

Chip Gruen: 0:04

Welcome to ReligionWise. I'm your host Chip Gruen. So if you're a longtime listener of the podcast, you'll know the goals are to talk about the ways in which the public conversation on religion happens. And that can happen in a number of ways. I mean, we deal a lot with education, of course, sometimes we deal with more abstract ideas, like the philosophy of religion or philosophy of spirituality. So we talk to scholars, and we also talk to people who are more broadly influential on the way we think about religion within, again, the public square, not just in academia, but in the world we all inhabit. Today's episode, I think gets directly at that question, and maybe in ways that you won't expect. So we sit down today with Dustin Grim funeral director at Schantz Funeral Home, here in the Lehigh Valley. And I've really wanted to have this conversation for a long time. Because it seems to me that when we're thinking about what some people might call questions of ultimate concern, or the big questions, we might say more colloquially, what does it mean to be human? What's the meaning of life? What happens after we die? I think it's possible to skirt those questions or not really addressed those questions in our daily life, whether those be family concerns, or work concerns, there are ways in which we can pay the bills, take the kids to soccer practice what have you, and not really necessarily confront those big questions that really are pertinent to all of us. The exception to that I think, are big life events, that one might be more introspective upon the birth of the child, or a wedding, or for today's conversation, the death of a loved one. And we might think about dealing with death and grief, of course, there are religious leaders who offer counseling and support to people who are members of religious communities, there are family members and friends, you know, who people talk to you, obviously. But really, on the front lines of this conversation are the people who are responsible for disposition of the body. In the United States, funeral homes and funeral directors have this place within the way that we deal with death. That is, that is interesting in a lot of ways. It's not religious, per se. But it's quasi religious because it does interact with people at times in which they are facing these big questions. Likewise, I would call it also a quasi public space as well, because it's open to people to deal with, not in a public way, not in a governmental like policy kind of way, but not wholly private, either, that these are businesses that cater to public needs, and provide service for the public in a way that is that taps into and sort of confronts those public perceptions and ideas about those ultimate concerns we talked about earlier. I think this is a really interesting conversation, we deal with two major poles that I'll have you listened for. One is the shifts in the funerary industry, from inhumation, that is the burial of a body. To cremation, that is the burning of the body, and then the collection of the ashes. This is a shift that has happened gradually, until it was all at once over the course of the last 100 years. And you'll you'll hear some statistics in our conversation today. But suffice it to say that we are now in a majority cremation society. And I think that there are implications that we can read into that shift. And some people, you know, might think, Oh, this is an economic issue, or this is an ecological issue. But I think it also makes you think about how do we consider our bodies? What do we think the human body is? Is it just a vessel for something else? Is it an in identity in itself? Do we need it? Traditional religious practice, particularly in the West sort of insists on or has insisted traditionally, on the resurrection of the body. And so when we see that shift from inhumation or burial to cremation, we might think that there are larger forces at work. And Dustin, and I talk a little bit about that. The other part of this that's interesting is that when we think about religious identity in the United States today, whether that be people who are less often affiliated with a religious institution, not as church going not members in communities, or we talk about the increasing pluralism of religious belief and practice the United States due to immigration patterns, but also other kinds of shifts in the religious landscape. So how does a funeral home deal with that? How does this affect the services they offer, whether those be private helping individuals and families deal with grief, or whether those be public right helping with the social ceremonies and functions of disposition of the body? So I've gone on too long already. But you can tell I'm really fascinated with this topic, because of the immediacy, and the universality of the issue here, that this is something that we all deal with, in different ways, though, it gets largely funneled through this funeral home business. And just before we get into the conversation, one more small note, if you are in an industry that is likewise adjacent to religious belief and practice, and you think, oh, gosh, actually, this rhymes a lot with some of the questions and concerns that we have, dealing with an increasingly diverse public or a public that is less that identifies less with particular religious identity, by all means, reach out to us, we would love to have that conversation. I think that this kind of conversation is the one that I think really will resonate with lots of people because we have experiences like the ones described today, in which we are confronted with with these big questions. So without further ado, here's my conversation with Dustin Grim, I hope you enjoy it. Dustin Grim, thanks for coming on ReligionWise.

Dustin Grim: 7:40

Appreciate that, thank you.

Chip Gruen: 7:41

So before we get started and talking about your experiences as a funeral director, I just wanted to start with a little bit of personal biography. How does one get in to the to the business of funerals, like what led you to this place vocationally?

Dustin Grim: 7:58

So I graduated high school started college at Kutztown University pursuing a degree in biology. Two years into that I decided I wasn't sure college was for me, happened that my next door neighbor growing up was a head nurse in the operating room at the running hospital. And so she encouraged me to come down there and they were looking to fill seats in a surgical technology program there, which is nothing more than assisting in and handing instrumentation for surgical procedures, decided to, to go through with that and finished my schooling there, became a certified surgical technologist, as part of that did lots of orthopedic work, and got into transplantation and harvesting of organs and tissues and those kinds of things. And, and also, eye enucleations, and kind of got to a crossroad of do I go back to school and become a nurse? Or do I do something else? Ironically, as I was thinking about that, in the next couple of weeks, I was doing knee replacement surgery with an orthopedic guy. And he said, Hey, Dustin, we're going to do a knee replacement on a guy that owns a funeral home. And he asked me if I knew anybody from the OR that might be interested in helping him out as he recovers. And so I kind of took the ball there and ran with it. Decided to go to mortuary school at Northampton Community College, stayed with that funeral director through my schooling, I did my year internship or apprenticeship with him. And here I am 25 years later.

Chip Gruen: 9:37

So I'm always and we'll get into a little bit more of that later. But I'm always really attentive before we get too deep into this, about how you choose to talk about what you do. Because you never know, you know what language is is permissible or offensive. And so I've already referred to what you do as a business As an industry, but at the same time, like you serve a really important function in the lives of people in their in their time of need, so that there are ways in which you operate almost. And I don't know that you would even say it this way, but almost as a, as a quasi religious space, right, this place of work. So so how do you deal with those on the one hand sort of providing the service? On the other hand, you know, is it is it impolite to talk about this as a business or as an industry?

Dustin Grim: 10:31

I don't think so. I mean, we certainly, lots of factors play into to what we do. And certainly there is a business side of, you need to generate funding to continue to operate as a business. I think that our industry calls it a calling, which is something that probably ties into the religious aspect of, of, you know, what we do and caring for people, lots of folks get into this profession without any experience and have no idea what they're doing and they last six months. And I think those of us who make this a career, you know, have that special calling to deal with the with people and always at the worst times that they're calling upon us to help them out.

Chip Gruen: 11:23

So what would you say? I mean, so obviously, there's a course of study you've mentioned, mortuary school, but this calling, what are some of the aspects, right? What are some of the things like what does your day look like? And I'm sure it's varied, right, from the physical to the, to the supportive, like what is the range of things that you do as a funeral director?

Dustin Grim: 11:46

So for me, I kind of run the gamut of everything from I will say, I'm the chief cook and bottle washer. It can be from answering the phone, it's administrative things. It is meeting families to arrange for funerals, it is running funerals, it's embalming. It's dressing it can be restorative artwork, it can be cleaning the toilets, kind of run the gamut of of everything there does not happen all the time. In all funeral homes. I'm a reasonably small funeral home compared to the rest of the country. Here in Pennsylvania, we have lots and lots of funeral homes, compared to the rest of the country. Some other states have large funeral homes that are handling 5000 plus families a year with deaths that that they've they've experienced. I'm about 200 calls a year, somewhere between 180 and 200 calls 210 calls a year, deaths that we are handling, so can be different with different funeral homes.

Chip Gruen: 12:48

So as you've mentioned, you've been a funeral director in the Lehigh Valley. So in Emmaus, Pennsylvania for the last 25 years. Can you talk a little bit about how your experience has changed over that time? You know, nothing? You know, nothing stays the same. Right? So particularly if we're going back 25 years, we're talking about what '99 turn of the millennium to now, how would you describe, you know, the the way that you operated then versus the way that you operate now, and what's demanded of you?

Dustin Grim: 13:22

Certainly times have changed, which does not, I mean, which reflects in the funeral business, as well. So, when I started, probably 90% of the time, when we received a death call, we were removing a body from wherever the death occurred, we were coming back to the funeral home, embalming that body, and within a couple of days having a viewing whether it was at the funeral home or at a religious place for the evening, prior to a service, typically we were, if it was at the funeral home, we were going to a church of some sort for the funeral service the next day, and the body would be buried in a church cemetery. Typically the one attached to the church. That is all gone at this point in time, not that we don't continue to do that. But that is definitely a lesser percentage by leaps and bounds of what we're doing. Now when we receive a death call we have no idea whether it's going to be an embalming, whether it's going to be a cremation, it could be a donation to science, there's all kinds of things that are going on in the funeral practice. And and so lots of questions now need to be asked at the time of death as to preferences or wishes of the deceased.

Chip Gruen: 14:40

Yeah, so those those questions, I'm curious, I could see that running both ways. Right. On the one hand, I could see you, you know, doing the interview with the family and asking about the wishes of the deceased or what the family needs or wants. I could also see going the other way where people hadn't really considered this and are asking you right about you know, What standard practices? Or how can you just talk a little bit about, about those conversations and about how they go. And I'll just sort of parenthetically say, I'm really interested. And I want to talk more about this in the in the way that people think about the body and death that they might not in their normal life, but they're confronted with it now, upon, you know, upon unfortunate event.

Dustin Grim: 15:25

Yeah, so there's, there's lots of questions that that come up in, in those conversations. So, again, to go back, you know, with, with all the options that are out there many times, especially people who have not thought about death, or there is a sudden death and have no idea what the wishes are of the deceased, kind of want to explore those things. And there are times where our arrangements are pushed back. Typically, in in the traditional setting, we would, the following day, after a death, we would meet with a family, typically, first thing in the morning, get everything prepared, put an obituary together, and move along with with services accordingly. Now, there's times where we're waiting three, four or five days, sometimes a week, or people want time to think about what options they have, maybe explore those options, do a little research and, you know, come back to us then. And with maybe more questions or or say we're going to go forward with with our decision to do whatever that decision would would be. Certainly have had to re educate, re educate ourselves in all of those options that are out there. There are things that have come up since I went to school. And so there there are, we have to make sure we're also following state laws and rules and regulations regarding certain forms of disposition.

Chip Gruen: 16:51

Yeah. So as I was, and just sort of transparency, I've been wanting to have a conversation like this for at least six months, maybe a year, because I find it is where the rubber hits the road for a lot of people and thinking about what happens after after death, among other things. And as I've talked to people about this, you know, that we can think about some of those options you're talking about. So there's inhumation, is at least I don't know, if that's how you all refer to burial. And then there's cremation. But then people are increasingly wanting to talk about other factors, right? Like whether it be green funerals that are more environmentally friendly, or whether it be, you know, the economics of, you know, of the choices that are being made or space concerns about, you know, whether one takes up space in a in a, you know, obviously a cremation leads to a smaller remains than wood burial. And I'm, again, I'm just going to editorialize, from my perspective, I look at these things like cremation versus burial. And I think, oh, gosh, that's got a lot to do with your ways of understanding what the body is and what death is and do you need your body? But then when I talk to people about this, a lot of times they'll say, Oh, well, this is this is about economics, right? Or this is about environmentalism or this is about sustainability. I mean, what is the tenor of those conversations when you're having them?

Dustin Grim: 18:20

So they're all over the place. Just to be honest, so I like to educate people and say that burial cremation I mean, cremation is just an option of what happens to the body at the end of a funerary practice or what we do so many times, people do not understand that you can have a viewing in a funeral followed by cremation, you can have a cremation followed by a service, you can I mean, there's all kinds of things that are out there. Once the body is cremated, then that opens up the door to a lot of of options. So you know, certainly in ground burial, niche burial, burial at sea, all those things are options after a body is cremated. But then there's also composting things that are out there for cremated remains as well as as whole body composting, there's options to shoot a portion of cremated remains into outer space, there's pretty much anything you can think of. There's a company out there that is, is promoting those those ideas. So there is a ton of of options out there once a body is cremated. And what do you do with those cremated remains? Certainly, people take them home and keep them at home, which we're going to see in the next probably 10 to 15 years, at least in my opinion. That's going to be a problem when families lose the last last family member in a generation and what happens to those cremated remains. And and so there's a lot of a lot of things out there that I think hurdles if you will that we're going to have to overcome in the next 10 to 15 years.

Chip Gruen: 20:01

Interesting. And it's interesting you say the next 10 to 15. I've been looking a little bit at statistics on what the National Funeral Directors Association and some other organizations and getting some statistics on this, and I think it's and again, just occupational hazard. This is something I've actually been watching for the past 15 years or so is the number of dispositions, as you call I've got a new new piece of vocabulary, the number of dispositions that are cremation, rather than burial. And that that number for as long as we have statistics has gone up every single year from the 19th, late 19th century. So that now, in the mid 1960s, it was up to 5%. Today, according to the National Funeral Directors Association, it's 60.5% in 2023, and they anticipate it being up to 80% by 2045. And just again, as an aside, I write a little bit about about funerary practice in late antiquity in the Roman Empire, the Roman catacombs. And it's interesting to note that the dominant Western practice is cremation until about the second century. And then it shifts and archaeologists and ancient historians don't really know how to talk about that shift other than they say things like, well, it's sort of the change in the fashion. But anyway, what's interesting about that is that we have the shift to whole body burial in the second century, that has only been reversed in the last 50 years. And I just find that to be super interesting. Right. So I mean, obviously, this has affected the Schantz Funeral Home, in what you do, but but can you can you just talk about? I mean, I don't even know, I think it's how do families come to those decisions? I mean, is it just a matter of personal choice? Or how do you see people's grappling with this question about how how to dispose the body?

Dustin Grim: 22:11

Yeah, I'm not sure that I have those answers, either. You know, historically, families have traditionally buried, bury their loved ones. And there, there seems to be that again, well, I know there is that shift of, of dynamic. So I'm seeing in pre arrangements, families that we have buried, buried, buried, and all of a sudden, husband wife comes in and says to me, Dustin, we don't want to put our family through through that. So we're just going to be cremated. And I don't know or don't have the answers to why or what made them you know, choose cremation versus earth burial. We are in a, what they consider a fairly traditional area here, where typically we're getting services involved with, with a cremation, whether it is a viewing and a funeral, followed by cremation, or memorial service, celebration of life, whatever you want to call that. And we're still burying probably 80% of the urns in the ground or in a niche space. And I think that's important to at least our folks here in our area, I mean, different areas certainly have different different dynamics and beliefs and those kinds of things. I think some of it began as the or the the trend towards cremation began as a monetary thing, or an economic thing. And, and certainly as, as a younger funeral director compared to the old folks, when it was five or 10% of your business. And again, going back to kind of the first question is we still have a business to, to operate, it didn't really matter. So, you know, 10% of your business is cremation. And so you say, Oh, it's $700. And that's what it is. And I believe many times or the stories that I've heard over the years is, is, at least for our area, cremation was one of those things, if somebody might have been in jail might have been the black sheep of the family, whether it was mental health concerns, whether it was alcoholism, or whatever it was where they said, Oh, we're just going to cremate him or her. And that was it. No service, no nothing. And that was a way if you will, just to sweep those problems underneath the rug. Certainly not the case in today's world, you know, people are choosing cremation for lots and lots of reasons. You know, there is that green factor or environmental friendly, which I would would caution to say that that is a terrible decision. If you're looking at cremation as a green burial option. I've had many many discussions in in adult Sunday school classes, senior groups about about that and, you know, that can be for another topic.

Chip Gruen: 25:00

Because of the fuel and...

Dustin Grim: 25:02

Yeah, so if you're looking at if you're defining green as the amount of hydrocarbons that are, are used to dispose of a human body 100% cremation far exceeds anything else that we're doing and, and again, that that can be a whole whole other whole other discussion. They also, the funeral business, at least in my opinion has has done really well at marketing those things. So green and and, you know, earth friendly and planting a tree, or flower bed or something with cremated remains has become a big thing that's coming up. And scientifically, cremated remains are chemically inert. So there is nothing growing from your loved ones cremated remains, I say to people, here's what the scientific evidence is. If if your belief is that that is going to help you move forward in the grief process, do what you have to do, plant a tree and call it you know, whatever you want to call it. But, you know, those are the those are some of the things that that are going on with cremation.

Chip Gruen: 26:10

So speaking of grief, so this is like personal experience story, but but here at the college, among the other classes I teach is Christian traditions. And I remember I was doing an evening college class in Christian traditions where we have non traditional students, adults. And one one of my students came in one night and she was just distraught. And she was just so upset, like outwardly emotively upset. And she wanted to talk to me, not that it's a part of our class, but she outed herself to me as a Christian. And she had a friend who had just died. And it wasn't that she was upset. I mean, she was upset about the death. But what really made her upset was that her family had had cremated the body. And she was just like, like I say, just beside herself in wanting to talk to me about well, it's Christian doctrine, that there's a resurrection of the body, like, what does this mean? Like? Is she, you know, on the last day, you know, is there nothing to be resurrected? And and what I answered her and how I dealt with this is sort of inconsequential, but I thought that the, you know, that reaction, right, and how viscerally she felt that traditional Christian belief and practice is having real consequences for the future. I mean, do you get do you get that? I mean, do you get people who come in and say, no, no, we need to inhumate the body we need to, we need a burial because of the last day? Or is that? Is that not the kind of thing that comes up with you?

Dustin Grim: 27:47

No, definitely, definitely. I mean, and again, depends on religious beliefs. And, and certainly, there are some religions that that will tell you that you will not be resurrected unless your entire body is buried in the ground. And ironically, the the, and I'm going to call out the Catholic Church. I mean, and when we talk about cremation, one of the big things with the Catholic Church is when they recognized cremation as an approved form of disposition, I think it really changed the, the the funeral business. So..

Chip Gruen: 28:18

And when was that?

Dustin Grim: 28:20

I'm gonna say it was the, the late 80s, early 90s. And they still have preferences, if you will, they, you know, you do not have to do this, but they prefer that the body is present for the mass in the church and then be cremated and then be buried in in what they consider sacred ground. You know, so, again, move going back to my earlier days, we never or shouldn't say never, but rarely cremated anybody that was of the Catholic faith, I'm probably 60% now of the Catholics that that, that we buried are cremated. So yes, I mean, I think it's a religious, religious belief. And I think some of the older, more conservative religions have that belief of the body needs to be there for resurrection. In the same sense, there's other religions that that, you know, don't have a care as to, to if your body is whole and intact in, you know, buried in the ground or if you're cremated.

Chip Gruen: 29:17

Yeah, it's interesting. I remember watching news coverage of an I don't remember who it was, was it maybe when Gerald Ford died or you know, but the body lies? Well, I'm even doing it myself. Right. It said the body lies in state. And I remember flipping between news coverage. And again, I pay attention to these things because of who I am. But some of the coverage would say the body of the former president is in the capitol rotunda and some people would say, Gerald Ford is in the capitol rotunda and the difference between like, the person being the body, right versus the body being right the the material remains, but that that person is, you know, their spirit is gone, their soul is gone. It's just really interesting right to think about shifting attitudes towards that over time. So I think about that, that the late 19th century, when cremation starts to just in the very beginning start to inch up, is when we get the spiritualist movement emerging in the United States, right, the idea of the not waiting around for a resurrection of the body, but the idea that there's immortal soul, right, that is sort of continuous. And so it's it's interesting to think about the implications, what, you know, maybe whether people are thinking about it or not for what you're saying about the relationship between yourself and your body? There's not really a question there. But, but this is kind of the way, you know, the way that I'm thinking about this when I think about, like, belief or practice of people and how they operate in the world.

Dustin Grim: 30:54

Right, right. Yeah. And it's hard on on our end, as funeral directors to answer those questions for the family that you're in front of, you know, I think to educate somebody that does not know or, or does not have a, an idea of what their loved one wanted, didn't want, and maybe does not have any sort of religious beliefs, it makes it difficult to steer them or guide them in the right direction, and what's going to be best for them in the coming weeks, days, months, years ahead for grief, you know, and at least from my perspective, I look at it from that, that perspective. So as a religious standpoint, if you have some belief in in resurrection, then there's hope that there'll be something more. And we're not just disposing of a dead human body, in the ground with nothing more to come. And so certainly, things that I'm seeing is when somebody dies, and family chooses to cremate somebody not put an obituary in the paper, not have a service, not bury not do anything. And not not everybody, but I do get these people who call me and say, Dustin, why did I do this? Because now I have to every time I'm at the grocery store, what happened to your husband, or what happened to your wife, every time I'm at a public function, and people don't know. And so it's kind of opening up that can of retelling the story and restarting the grief process over and over again. So I mean, as a funeral director, I certainly feel strongly that some sort of service and it can be, it doesn't have to be a, you know, a night viewing a funeral in a church, a burial at a cemetery, but some some way to honor and celebrate somebody's life, I think is super, super important, especially for the beginnings of of grief, and to be able to publicly share, share that with friends and loved ones.

Chip Gruen: 33:00

Yeah. And it's it's interesting, the way you talk about on the one hand, grief is personal and private. Right. On the other hand, you're describing a social function is what how we would describe it, right? That, that it's important that there's kind of a public recognition of the passing of an individual, for practical as well as personal reasons. Yeah, it's interesting to think about, and I wonder, you know, thinking about, you know, you helping people through this process, it seems to me, like your role, if anything, will have gotten more important and more instrumental, as the number of people without formal religious affiliation has gone up, right, that the so called "nones" that we're always talking about, right, because they don't have necessarily religious leaders that they can point to, to talk, talk through these things.

Dustin Grim: 33:51

Yeah, definitely. You know, and it is, we're in a position right now, where we don't have a whole lot of options to turn to, you know, the those who choose to cremate and have a celebration of life at a park or at a social hall or wherever it is that that they're doing that celebration. How do you, you know, without a formal religious service, if you will, who will emcee? I don't know if that's the right terminology, but who will emcee that and, and make it go off as as seamless as a traditional religious service will be. And it's been problematic. There there's been a celebrant movement that's been started by the National Funeral Directors Association, where there is lay people who can take training classes to celebrate and honor somebody's life without any kind of religious undertones that was started out in in on the west coast, where the cremation rate is certainly much higher than it is in some other places. And, and basically a way to say the deceased life mattered, whether they have religious beliefs or not. And so we need to celebrate that. As far as I know, locally, there is not, not very many of them that that are out there, there are some funeral directors who have taken the celebrant course, to be able to offer that to their families, it is not something that I have done it at this point.

Chip Gruen: 35:19

That's interesting, because it makes me think of the ways that one can license with the state to be an officiant at a wedding, for example. So you'll have a family friend who will go and get the paperwork so that they can be the state representative for lack of a better word at a wedding, which is also public, right, that has those sorts of functions. So it's interesting to see if there's a that, that there is a movement that is sort of taking a similar position at this other really important life death event as well. So and I told you, I've been thinking about this conversation for a long time. And one of the reasons and we talked a little bit about this, I know there are things you can say, and you can't say about this, but when I was driving past a local funeral home, it wasn't Schantz, but with a different funeral home, and they had a marquee outside, and it said all faiths, religious traditions, welcome. And I read that and I was like, okay, that's really interesting. I want to know, I mean, what does that mean? Does that mean that they're just open to serving lots of different kinds of people? Or does that mean that they have ritual expertise that can help them help, say, Hindu or Buddhist or Muslim, or Jewish people who need their services? So what I mean, given that on the one hand, we've talked a lot about sort of rising, the "nones" and the people without religious affiliation, but then our world is increasingly diverse with people of different religious traditions as well. How has that affected your industry? How do you deal with that? I know, we've talked a little bit about the segmentation of the funeral home business itself as well.

Dustin Grim: 37:06

Yeah, so different religious organizations have different rituals, if you will, for funeral practices. So there are some some funeral homes or some religious groups that particularly use a specific funeral home, for example, the people of the Jewish faith typically go to the same funeral home and they have their ritualistic things that they do. And people specialize or funeral homes specialize in those kinds of things. And then there's others that, you know, we need to learn as funeral directors as we move forward with, again, as you mentioned, the, the diversity of the Lehigh Valley here is certainly growing. And so as a funeral director, going back to your statement, serving all faiths, or all faiths are welcome. You have to kind of learn as as you go, I believe the example that that I had shared with you was I had a Buddhist family that that contacted me, and asked if I did Buddhists, if I had done Buddhist funerals prior. And I said, No, but I'm willing to help you if you're willing to help me. And so it was definitely a learning experience. And, you know, try to to make sure you're following their wishes and traditions of their faith in order to appease the family and do what what is right by the deceased. I'm pretty sure there's probably funeral homes out there that that would say, we don't want to do that. And kind of stick to the main mainstream, and this is what we do. And this is what we're good at. And we're not willing to learn. And I think, again, moving forward for the future of funeral services, we need to grasp the idea of it's okay to, to think outside the box and, and it's okay to learn something different. And, and be able to help families of other other religious beliefs. I do know and can share a friend of mine, they serve the Mennonite population, and recently contacted by a Muslim organization that was was creating a cemetery and asked, Could they and would they be willing to work with the Muslim population because of the, the location of the funeral home to the cemetery? And so they did some research and did some training classes and they are now serving the Muslim population in that that specific area, totally different, again, from from the traditional Mennonite services, but certainly something that that they've embraced and are now you know, serving the Muslim population as well.

Chip Gruen: 39:38

Interesting. So from to go back for a second from your own experience, you say you, you know, have been approached by Buddhist practitioners and they came and you, you said, Sure, I'm willing to learn let's Can you remember any of the specific things that would have made that different that that would have called on you to adapt to doing or saying things differently than you would in what would be a more I mean sort of standard service or standard services that you offer?

Dustin Grim: 40:13

Yeah. So, so, definitely with with the Buddhist service, I knew going into it that just from a general religion class that the body would be cremated, not embalmed, I had really had no expectation or idea of of what else that that involved and so, it was a they they dress the body in traditional clothes, they had a public viewing unembalmed, which is something that is certainly legal. And then the following day kind of as as dressed as as you and I are today, in in Americanized clothes the following day, there was a Buddhist priest that came or a monk they were then dressed in, in traditional traditional clothing. There was music that was played and they had ceremonial things of tea and and little bits of food. And they believe the things that were placed into the cremation container were things that were needed for the afterlife, and were to be cremated with their loved one. They also then go to the crematory and do a ceremony at the crematory. Following the cremation, their cremated remains go to a Buddhist temple. And I don't know the number of days that they remained in the Buddhist temple. And the the idea was that their soul leaves their cremated remains and their cremated remains thaen are placed in in water of some sort.

Chip Gruen: 41:39

Interesting, and you mentioned just you know, the unembalmed viewing, which you parenthetically said which is certainly legal. So you obviously have a relationship with the state, right about what's legal and what's not. I mean, how restrictive is the state and, you know, for whatever it be public health reasons or what have you. I mean, do you see any bumping up against the wishes of families versus state things are those pretty minimal?

Dustin Grim: 42:12

Pretty minimal. I mean, there certainly are rules and regulations laws that we need to follow for at least public viewing and non embalmed body. I mean, there there is, or the laws were created, that it kind of is is available for those religious organizations to to do their rites and rituals without having to break the law, if you will, you know, certainly there's been a number of things COVID being one of them, where a lot of the rules regulations have, were gotten rid of for a period of time. And we're now back in, in normal operating procedures. I mean, one of the big things that COVID has, has shown to the world is at least in my eyes, as a funeral director is, is one of the most important things that we do as funeral directors is to protect our communities, from the spread of contagious diseases, from the dead to the living. And, and probably not something that was thought of much before COVID. And certainly, there were restrictions placed on us as to do you embalm, do you not embalm? You know, and obviously those things have changed. But, again, I think that it was a good eye opener that we as funeral directors are protecting our communities from, public health is number one, is what we do.

Chip Gruen: 43:38

It's just so interesting to think about all of the different places that you you know, there is the social function, we talked about the psychological function, the public health function, the religious and you know, doctrinal, practical function. It just, it's just really interesting to see the confluences of all of those pieces of who we are, as humans sort of coming together at this sort of moment of immediacy that we have upon the death, you know, the death of a loved one. So just one more note on that, about the diversity of religious belief and practice and, and you know, as people who may have been in the United States, I mean, fourth or fifth fifth generation and my wife's family is uncountable generations 10 or 12. But these first and second generation, people from around the world from from various places can be more traditional in some ways are often more traditional in some ways. And so it's interesting to see how the expectations or it will be interesting to see how those expectations over the course of the next next generation go and the only other thing I would say about that is that we have a lot of immigrant communities from places that might be Muslim or Hindu or Buddhist where there is less of an elderly population in the United States, they're just because of immigration law changes that have happened or who emigrates. And I really wonder, you know, going forward in the next generation, how much the services of funeral homes will be called on more and more to adapt as those populations age, you know, just just because of, of life cycles. Now, this coincided with, with immigrant communities.

Dustin Grim: 45:31

Yeah, I think definitely. I mean, from my perspective, if if you haven't grasped that, and you're turning your head and sending them to the, with the funeral home down the street, I think you're losing something there. You know, as your you said, the population again, for those specific groups of people are younger, and certainly will, you know, as they're here and, and growing families and they age, you know, are their traditions going to change? Maybe? Are they going to become more Americanized? Maybe, but I still think it's good to understand the traditional practices of, of their beliefs.

Chip Gruen: 46:13

Yeah, I would, I would argue that even if there, if some of those practices sort of start to conform more with, you know, as, as the generations roll on, I would guess that funeral practice, marriage practice, birth rituals will be some of the things that we'll hold on the longest, right? Because the immediacy of it. Alright, so one thing that I always like to finish on is, what am I leaving out? Right? What are what is the thing that we haven't talked about? Because, you know, I am not, you know, knee deep in, in the funeral industry? Is there anything that you know, that you think is really important that our listeners should know, about the way that, you know, the work of a funeral director or the work of a funeral home and how that interacts with, you know, with individuals and families and their needs? I mean, what what am I not seeing here?

Dustin Grim: 47:08

Can I go back to one thing?

Chip Gruen: 47:09

Yeah.

Dustin Grim: 47:10

So one of the things that we talked about cremation and and the the rise of the cremation rate, and kind of talked a little bit about that celebrant movement, ironically, is, is there's there's certain pockets and places throughout the country, where the cremation rate is much higher, and they're certainly places where they're much lower. And I think from a religious standpoint, it is 100% hits the nail on the head, the deep south, and certain areas where their cremation rate is probably still 10% or less is the more traditional type. Religious beliefs. And I think, from things that I've read and researched, especially in the deep south, is the, the traditional African Americans do not cremate. And I think that those areas, definitely traditional areas, when you're talking Northern California, Oregon, Washington, some places in northeast where people are more environmentally friendly and have different beliefs, if you will, and or maybe no, no religious beliefs is where the the cremation rate has definitely risen. And, and specifically, the National Funeral Directors has targeted Northern California, Washington, Oregon and the northeast, as as those celebrant movement places. So I think there is a direct correlation between religious beliefs and the cremation rate in those specific areas. You know, here in Pennsylvania, we're kind of middle of the road. And so, you know, and I think that's some of the reason why we have not been able to draw that celebrant movement to us at this point in time.

Chip Gruen: 48:50

Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, we have listeners from all over and we haven't talked too much about the Lehigh Valley. But the Lehigh Valley is middle of the road in lots of ways, right? We have this old Pennsylvania Dutch tradition that is here, been here generations and generations, but yet a fairly high immigrant community. And we are, you know, either we are a part of the ecosystem, the liberal liberal northeast are certainly within easy driving distance of it, right, so that you can get all all kinds here. And so it's interesting to see that that's reflected also in how you deal with the public as well.

Dustin Grim: 49:25

And going back to to things that that may have been left out. I think that, you know, it's important, again, we talked about throughout the program here of people that don't have ideas of what their loved ones wishes are. I am a huge fan of and I know that a family Sunday dinner is not the time to probably people to talk about funerals and what their wishes and those kinds of things are. I'm a huge fan of talking about those things, and getting plans in order. At least locally here lots of folks and I'll use the Pennsylvania Dutch tradition. they'll say to me, well, Dustin, I don't want to give you any my money. And I said, I don't want your money. You know, but I want your wishes in writing. So I think it's important to talk about those things, especially, especially those that are going to be that are outside of the norm, if you will, of a church funeral, a burial, a casketed burial, you know, where a service might be held? Or what what types of things that people are looking for, to be able to, to honor and celebrate somebody's life? Those are the big hurdles that I'm seeing now of, you know, where do you do it? How do you put it together? Who do you want to speak? You know, what do you want it to look like? What do you want people to remember you as those kinds of things, I think are super important. How you get people to talk about that. I'm never sure. You know, I do talk to lots of church groups, I talk to senior groups, I talk to whoever wants to listen to a talk about pre arrangements, and getting your wishes in writing. And I think that's super, super important. The payment portion, that's for another time, and, you know, doesn't need to be discussed here. But I think having your wishes available to your family, and have them know where those wishes are, is is super important. I also think that that we're gonna see a huge change in Pennsylvania, at least for the funeral business as the cremation rate rises and continues to rise. There are small funeral homes that are gonna go out of business. There's just no way business wise that somebody who's who's servicing 40 families, and is doing the projection to 80% cremation that economically they cannot keep their doors open. So I think we're gonna see a big shift in the number of funeral funeral homes. Not so much here in the valley. But I mean, there are going to be some that are going to close their doors. But when you get up into Schuylkill County, and and up northern northern areas where there's, you know, a third generation family that's doing it, and I don't like to use the word hobby, but as a hobby and has a full time career doing something else. I think we're gonna see those those places close over time. And and, you know, it's it's going to be the the way it's going to be.

Chip Gruen: 52:18

Yeah, yeah, well, the only constant is change. Right?

Dustin Grim: 52:21

Correct.

Chip Gruen: 52:22

So we'll see that...

Dustin Grim: 52:23

Correct.

Chip Gruen: 52:24

Well, Dustin Grim, thank you so much for coming. This has been a super enjoyable conversation and enlightening. I really appreciate it.

Dustin Grim: 52:30

Thank you.

Chip Gruen: 52:33

This has been ReligionWise a podcast produced by the Institute for Religious and Cultural Understanding of Muhlenberg College. ReligionWise is produced and directed by Christine Flicker. For more information about additional programming, or to make an inquiry about a speaking engagement, please visit our website at religionandculture.com. There you'll find our contact information, links to other programming, and have the opportunity to support the work of the Institute. Please subscribe to ReligionWise wherever you get your podcasts. We look forward to seeing you next time.