In this episode, David Nakhla facilitates part 1 of a discussion of real-life scenarios with four seasoned deacons: Lynne Hunter, Bob Keys, John Voss, and Doug Vos. As the men discuss, a common thread emerges—a need for diaconates to be prepared with policies and procedures for dilemmas like the two presented in this episode. The first, a member asking to create and lead a new ESL program, and the second having to do with a member of your church experiences a disaster in his home.
A few other suggestions from Bob (not mentioned in the episode):
working chain saw with extra blade
gloves, hard hat and protective eye equipment (for safety)
appliance dolly (for moves)
some kind of a truck or van for helping people move or take things where they need to be
Part two of Real World Cases: Policies and Procedures is scheduled to be released on June 25, 2024.
You can find all of our episodes at thereformeddeacon.org. Make sure to follow us on your favorite podcast player, so you don't miss an episode. Follow us on Facebook and Instagram for giveaways and more information. Find other resources on OPCCDM.org. Make sure to send us some feedback on your podcast player or ask a diaconal question by going to OPCCDM.org.
In this episode, David Nakhla facilitates part 1 of a discussion of real-life scenarios with four seasoned deacons: Lynne Hunter, Bob Keys, John Voss, and Doug Vos. As the men discuss, a common thread emerges—a need for diaconates to be prepared with policies and procedures for dilemmas like the two presented in this episode. The first, a member asking to create and lead a new ESL program, and the second having to do with a member of your church experiences a disaster in his home.
A few other suggestions from Bob (not mentioned in the episode):
working chain saw with extra blade
gloves, hard hat and protective eye equipment (for safety)
appliance dolly (for moves)
some kind of a truck or van for helping people move or take things where they need to be
Part two of Real World Cases: Policies and Procedures is scheduled to be released on June 25, 2024.
You can find all of our episodes at thereformeddeacon.org. Make sure to follow us on your favorite podcast player, so you don't miss an episode. Follow us on Facebook and Instagram for giveaways and more information. Find other resources on OPCCDM.org. Make sure to send us some feedback on your podcast player or ask a diaconal question by going to OPCCDM.org.
Speaker 1:
My advice also would be to, as diaconates whether you're two-man, one-man, ten-man pre-plan some stuff. Think about things other than those immediate needs in your diaconal meetings, or with even small groups. Think about if we were going to end up in this situation, what would our diaconate do?
Speaker 2:
Welcome to the Reformed Deacon, a casual conversation with topics specifically designed to help local Reformed Deacons. There are nearly a thousand deacons in the OPC alone, so let's take this opportunity to learn from and encourage one another. We're so glad you could join us. Let's jump into our next episode. My name is David Nautilus and I serve as the administrator for the OPC's Committee on Diaconal Ministries.
Speaker 2:
In this episode of the Reformed Deacon Podcast, I will be facilitating a discussion group we call Real World Cases. I'll describe the case to our panel of four seasoned deacons and we'll listen to them, discuss possible responses to each. They're all fictitious situations, but you'll find them to be realistic and plausible. Hopefully this will serve you with some considerations and how best to respond and follow up when this or a situation like it presents itself at your church. With me today are four longtime OPC deacons. First I've got Bob Keyes, a deacon from Grace OPC in Columbus Ohio. Doug Voss, a deacon at Oakland Hills OPC in Farmington Hills, michigan. Lynn Hunter, deacon at Harvest OPC in Wyoming, michigan. And John Voss, a deacon from Covenant OPC, orland Park, illinois, and a fellow CDM members. Welcome, brothers, thanks for being here. Thank you.
Speaker 4:
Thank you.
Speaker 2:
David, good afternoon. Let's start with our first scenario. A woman in the church approached one of the deacons asking if she could start leading ESL classes at the church and asked for it to be supported financially by the church. She says she understands and appreciates the fact that the ordained deacons oversee the ministry of mercy, but wondered if she could be the one to lead this effort. She admits she's concerned that her work not be micromanaged so that her creativity might be squelched. She wonders what policies the deacons and elders have about the types of ministries women in the church could lead and how much leeway they give, and she wonders what that oversight might look like. So, brothers, in preparation for this scenario, what guidelines or qualifications do you think a local diaconate might have in place should this face your church?
Speaker 1:
I don't mind going first. Lynn, seeing we are already running ESL at harvest, my question would be why is she coming to the deacons? And the reason I ask this is because this would be a witness outreach. Now I'm not saying deacons do not witness, but this would be a witness outreach that would probably be managed more by the session. So that would be my first question that I had in my mind and, with Harvest Church already running an ESL program and knowing how it works, that's where I would guide her and I would take her to a session member and we'd have a sit down discussion about it. Thank you, john, that's interesting. I would do her to a session member and we'd have a sit down discussion about it.
Speaker 3:
Thank you, john. That's interesting. I would do the same thing. I would want to meet with her and an elder maybe a couple of elders, I think. The scenario where she's afraid that she might be micromanaged. I would want to see what the curriculum is. At the very least, you think you need to see the curriculum. Are there age limits? Are we doing for lack of a better term co-ed? Are we doing male and female together? And then the times, the days.
Speaker 3:
Is this going to interfere with other programs that are going on in the church? And then, is it going to be open to the public, anyone who hears about it? Are they going to be the ones? Or is it going to be something that's going to be in-house, where you've got members that could use English as a second language for classes? Because once you're exposing yourself, if you're going to be open to the public, you're exposing yourself to a lot of other peoples that you don't really know about, and so now that opens up a whole new can of worms about topics, subjects, how it's being taught, and I would really want to know what that curriculum is going to look like. I think the church has to be careful. Again, you're saying that it's outreach and it is an outreach, but what kind of an outreach are we actually going to be making and what kind of light is this going to put the church under?
Speaker 5:
We don't have an ESL program in our church, but there are plenty of ESL programs all over the city of Columbus and the first thing I would do is contact a number of churches that do it on a regular basis and find out what issues they have had, where they've gone An experienced ESL person to help us start that and develop a curriculum. Now again, if you already have one, that's a different story, but we don't have one. If we were doing one, I would want to get some expert wisdom, direction from other churches that do it. They've seen the issues, they've seen the problems and I take a little different stance as well with John and Lynn. I think it's a diaconal ministry and gospel ministry. It's got to be gospel ministry but it has diaconal implications as well. I think we need to join it and get outside help to get started. I would be very hesitant to have this one lady and I wouldn't tell her this. There needs to be a team of people, make sure that we're doing the right things and that we're protecting the church. I think John is exactly right. If there's outside people, what about abuse? What about men and women, and I mean I just on and on it goes. I think we've got to be real careful and listen carefully to other churches to see what their experiences have been and not make the same mistakes, I'm sure, as many of them have made in the past. So that'd be some of the things I would be concerned about.
Speaker 5:
I'd go slow, I would go very slow. This isn't something you have to rush into. I would make sure it sounds like a really good thing. I have a lot of Japanese tenants and they go to ESL and we actually work with them as a landlord to encourage them in Jesus Christ. And they go to ESL and a Dublin Baptist church and what a blessing. So I actually work with that and I can see the real benefits in terms of the gospel ministry to an ESL class when they teach the Bible and other things and talk about Jesus Christ. So, yeah, I see it connecting because many people that don't speak English need English in order to get jobs and to help them and to be able to do different things. So it's a combo to me. But I would go slow and make sure we're doing things wisely and correctly from the start and not make big mistakes.
Speaker 2:
Good, good, good input, bob, Thank you.
Speaker 4:
Doug, I know Lin has another comment. Let me just say we have not had an ESL class at our church specifically. However, a number of people in our church have participated at ESL classes at the Arab American Friendship Center in Dearborn, michigan, which is serving many of the Arabic speaking immigrants in the metro Detroit area, and so my wife has taught an ESL class. Usually those classes are for women. In fact, it would be unusual to have a co-ed class. In some of the Arab cultures, especially the more conservative groups, like the Yemeni immigrants, would always have the women separate from the men, like the Yemeni immigrants would always have the women separate from the men. So I think this is kind of a generalized question about an ESL class that a woman would like to lead in a church. So I think it's definitely an evangelistic opportunity. When I've seen them done, there's classes offered at various times and then usually on Friday night they would have an evangelistic service and invite everyone to come back to hear a gospel presentation, to do some recitations in English, maybe some Bible verses they would say out loud to practice their English, and so it's been a great evangelistic opportunity.
Speaker 4:
So I think we definitely want to encourage the woman that wants to start this but discuss with them, like has already been mentioned, the curriculum. We don't want to put a damper on a great opportunity for outreach. So we don't want to squash that her enthusiasm or zeal to do this. But we just want to align the church's goals as far as evangelism and Bible teaching to make sure that everyone has the same goals and is looking at it the same way. So I do notice in the paragraph that it's talking about she wonders what policies the deacons and elders have about types of ministries women in the church can lead, and I think that would lead to some discussion of some of the passages in 1 and 2 Timothy to just kind of make sure that everyone is seeing it the same way. But definitely want to encourage it. Don't want to squash it too much. So I don't want to squash it at all, want to encourage the outreach opportunity. I think Lynn had something else he was going to say too.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, lynn, so the curriculum that Harvest uses comes from the PCA, particularly MMA.
Speaker 2:
Mission to North America Yep.
Speaker 1:
I've already developed this curriculum. It is taught by men and women to ages at harvest. It was, I believe, 18 to 60. But I want to say there was 29 different countries of 60 participants this year.
Speaker 2:
Wow, and this was our first year doing it. That's awesome.
Speaker 1:
We have a board or a four-member committee that oversees the whole project and every session is started with prayer and Bible verse and learning that Bible verse how to pronounce the words in English and then my wife teaches beginners, brand new people that don't speak English, and it's just a matter of showing a notebook and repeating the word five or six times and things like that. So the basics are very basic and then the more advanced are very advanced and get into more real world and sometimes even theological discussions. Good, if somebody that listens to this podcast wants to know more information, you can gladly give out my name and I'll get them, or give out Pastor Adrian's name and one that helps start this.
Speaker 2:
Good, we'll put that link in the show notes. Yeah, sounds like there's lots of good thoughts there. With regards to cooperation the one that helped start this. Good, we'll put that link in the show notes. Yeah, it sounds like there's lots of good thoughts there. With regards to cooperation between the elders and deacons. This could be a ministry of word and deed together Significant need and a good ministry, a good form of outreach. Do it with a team, team-led. That sounds like a good feedback. And then, even dovetailing off of what Bob was saying, just learn from others who've done it before. Go slow, lots of good feedback. John wanted to say one more thing.
Speaker 3:
Well, getting back into the scenario where she wonders policy of the deacons and how can a woman get involved in the ministry of the church and such? First of all, I think the question there is actually probably more in line with eldership and what elders would consider roles for women's involvement in ministries. But in our church we've got women's Bible studies where the women are leading it, but it still comes down to the session determining or overseeing that curriculum. What is it you want to use? And so they're overseeing the curriculum. But even with deacons, while we don't ordain women deacons at least not in the OPC very often it can be helpful to have a deacon's wife or wives, maybe a group of women, who can sit in on a case.
Speaker 3:
It's very good to get female input. When there's a female issue, I'll say, generating the actual decision, they definitely have and can have and probably should have input into that decision and what's going to be done. Because, number one, men and women don't meet one-on-one. We have to prevent that too. And number two, men and women are wired differently, regardless of what this world says, and women are wired differently, regardless of what this world says. And there are times when we sit there and we just you know bulls in a china shop and go ahead. Here's what the decision should be, and a woman would know much better what would be more helpful.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, good, good, yeah. Let me just say real quick that one of the reasons I think that the qualifications for deacons includes qualifications for what his wife looks like is because diaconal ministry, I think, is much more conducive to the involvement of wives than the work of the elders. There's not qualifications for elders' wives. I'm sure they need to be upstanding women as well. But yeah, it assumes that there's going to be involvement with deacons' wives in that ministry, particularly as you minister to half the congregation as women and, more than that, as children. So that's good, bob. What did you want to?
Speaker 5:
add. I just thought of something and I think in our city, in Columbus, there's enough opportunity for women to go to another church and minister in an ESL program in Columbus, or that we bring other women, other Christian women, in or men to serve as well. I think this is a gospel ministry and I think there's room for other churches other than OPC involved in this. We got Reformed Presbyterian and other churches. I just think there's lots of room for working together in something like this in other churches and so often we don't think about that. But if you get a bigger team you can even do a better job, I think, in teaching, training, ESL, if you get capable people from all different kinds of, in our case, Reformed Presbyterian. We have six or eight churches in the local area. So I think we should never forget our brothers and sisters in Christ, Always remember them.
Speaker 2:
Doug, I'm going to give you the last word, and then we're going to go on to our next scenario.
Speaker 4:
I think what came out toward the end here with Bob's remark is that you should know the context of the city that you're in, and it's going to be different from city to city. What type of immigrants are there, what are the languages? That's right and what are other churches doing? So consider the context of your city as well.
Speaker 2:
That's good. Yeah, good input, super, all right brothers. Scenario number two it's 10 pm, you're just getting into bed and your phone rings. You don't recognize the number, but you decide to pick it up. A panicked voice on the other end of the phone yells I've got six feet of water in my basement. It's almost to the ceiling.
Speaker 2:
You recognize this voice on the other end. It's Mike, a longtime member of your church. He tells you that the recent torrential downpours have now flooded his basement and it's clear he needs help fast. So you hop in your truck, rush over to help him and you find him struggling to pump the water out of his basement with a very undersized sump pump. From what you can tell, everything in his finished basement looks ruined. The only thing you can think to ask in the moment is if he's got flood insurance. He says no, I never thought I'd need it. In your eagerness to comfort Mike, you assure him the deacons will take care of him. Then your mind begins to consider the magnitude of the situation. And if you've promised something, you and the deacons or the church can't deliver, brothers, what do you do?
Speaker 5:
Found yourself in that situation, Two weeks ago I was out, got a call from a wonderful brother in our church and he says we're bailing. I says bailing hay straw, no, he says we're bailing water. I says what? We had three, four inches of rain in 36 hours. And, um, he says I don't think my sump pump is keeping up. Is it even working? I says I'm coming over. So I brought my a brand new sump pump with me. I head over and I looked down. His nine kids were taking water out of the basement and they had just gotten over the peak and I watched Niagara Falls come over the top. This family is allergic to mold and so it was a true, unbelievable situation I'd never seen before. Some pumps work they work, but this one. They actually found out that it had little particles of debris in there, reducing the efficiency of the sump. But they were scared and I brought my new sump pump in and they were able to get it done that night and I put a secondary pump in a week later after the rain stopped and got that settled. But this happens all the time and you just have to be ready for these kinds of things that do happen and can happen. And if they hadn't had nine kids, they would have had four inches of water in that basement, guarantee you. So again. But I've never seen Niagara Falls like that before. That was the eighth wonder of the world. But these things happen. These things happen and I have a list of six things that every church or handyman or deacon should always have.
Speaker 5:
One is a sump pump with a flexible hose. I mean, you've got to have that About 40 foot of hose. You need a large tarp. You've got to have a About 40 foot of hose. You need a large tarp. You've got to have a large tarp. Maybe two what happens if your shingles come off in the middle of night? You've got to be able to put a tarp on that house and protect it. You've got to have a generator. It may be expensive that's the most expensive thing I've got on my list but you've got to have a generator.
Speaker 5:
Someone in the church must have a generator that they can take wherever you need, whenever you need it, especially in the wintertime. You need four to five small heaters 1500 watt heaters. You've got to have them. What happens if a family loses their heat? They've got to have these four or five heaters keep their house warm so it doesn't freeze. You need a fan just two or three fans that you can dry things out when you have a problem, and you need a wet, dry vac or something like that that can handle water. Those are the essentials I think that every church deacon or handyman in the church needs to have and have it ready to go, because you're going to have these situations all the time in a larger church, even a smaller church is going to have these problems and you've got to be able to deal with them. So those are some suggestions I have Be ready as a church. I know these other guys are going to talk about the PDC and the CDM, so proceed, but that's where we started.
Speaker 2:
That's a good list, Bob. We'll try to include your list in the show notes. I think that that's helpful.
Speaker 4:
So Bob had a good answer. I would say the other thing you need on your list is another deacon buddy to call.
Speaker 3:
You better have a pickup truck.
Speaker 4:
I would call it a deacon buddy that has a pickup truck. So I don't have a pickup truck, but yeah, those are a useful list of things to have. And then also, yeah, I would say, if you don't have Presbytery Diaconal Committee, you need, because if the water was up to the ceiling, his basement might have been totally trashed and might be $10,000, $20,000 worth of damage and tear out the walls and all that stuff and his deacon fund might not have enough money to do anything. So it's going to be a situation where he needs to get in touch with his Presbyterian Diaconal Committee and say, guys, we got his house kind of empty to water. You know we're pushing the squeegee around now, but you know, the next morning it's like I got to make a call to the other deacons in the Presbyterian figure out what we can do. So that would be the next steps, I think. Yeah, I'm calling John.
Speaker 5:
Or Doug.
Speaker 3:
I have a two-inch Makita pump. I could outdo anything you want with a sump pump. You got to be really careful. You can't overcommit. You're an individual and it's one thing to commiserate and to help, and there are certain things that individuals in the church can do. You can contact people that can help.
Speaker 3:
The first thing in there yeah, okay, you've got to get this thing cleaned up, and reality is pump it out, get rid of that, and then, if you can organize some of the deacons to help get the stuff out, you've got to get the carpet out, you've got to get the drywall out, and that's something that maybe the church can do without a huge outlay of money. The rebuilding part is going to get expensive and that's where the church you have to be very careful about. Oh, we can take care of this, because you can't make promises as an individual and then encumber the entire church or the entire congregation. Like you said, doug, 20,000. It could be a whole lot more than that.
Speaker 3:
That basement's probably got the furnace and it's probably got the water heater. You're looking at appliances and everything else, and as much as we want to make promises and help, we also have to realize that there are limitations on this. So then and basically, you commiserate and you tell them we'll see what we can do. Let me talk to the other deacons. We'll talk to the church. Give them assurances that at least we'll consider helping you and consider what we can help you with.
Speaker 2:
We'll come alongside you right.
Speaker 3:
Yeah.
Speaker 2:
We're with you in this, but we can't say that we're going to cover the whole cost.
Speaker 3:
Yeah, and even going to a PDC. This is a cold thought or a cold thing to say, but, boy, you really need to consider getting that insurance. Boy, you really need to consider getting that insurance. That's part of being prepared too, as an individual, and a family is to prepare. We know that we live in a sinful world and this is a fallen place and bad things happen and sometimes bad things can't be covered by the congregation. We also have to live in a real world.
Speaker 2:
If I can put my disaster response coordinator hat on, if you have floodwaters come from outside your house inside your house your home insurance will not cover it. If your house system fails, you have a sewer system backup or one of your pipes bursts, that's your system failing and that's covered by typical home insurance. But if you have floodwaters come from the outside, inside, it is not covered. Now I think we should also realize that you cannot always buy flood insurance. Some houses flood that are not in a flood zone and they are not necessarily qualified for flood insurance. But if you live in a flood zone, you probably should strongly consider having flood insurance. So, yeah, I think that's what you're saying.
Speaker 5:
Yeah, my point was check with your insurance, no matter what. If you talk with them, a lot of times you don't know what you really have covered. The wording is so complex. But if you get a good agent he'll help. You understand, he'll do the best that he can to get you help. But realize insurance companies really don't want to pay out. In these days A lot of people that have roof damage and a lot of insurance companies are just not paying out and this could be the case here as well. But at least check, have the church pray that it would be covered and at least in part make sure you have them checked.
Speaker 2:
Did you want to add anything to this, Lynn? I think you've all covered it.
Speaker 1:
I think Harvest has a unique situation where we have 12 deacons and if I got the call at 10 o'clock at night, somebody else is coming there with me. We also work hard, and are working harder, at getting what I would call a talent resource bank build up at Harvest, so we know what guys can do, are willing to do in different areas of expertise, and so my advice also would be to, as diaconants whether you're one, two man, one man, 10 man pre-plan some stuff. Think about things other than those immediate needs in your diaconal meetings or with even small groups. Think about if we were going to end up in this situation just like we're talking here, what would our diaconate do?
Speaker 4:
One other thing which we already said I just want to emphasize is don't promise or overcommit. You know, check with your other deacons. That's like like Lynn is saying call another deacon as soon as possible and talk things over, because you don't even know at this point whether other people in your church had flood that same day. So you're committing like a lot of resources and you need to be careful what you're committing. Just be careful and cautious, but be gentle and kind. At the same time you're bailing water.
Speaker 2:
Under promise over deliver.
Speaker 5:
Yes, Two other points. One I think you have to be very careful in situations like this to realize there's danger, there's electrical stuff down there and you've got to think before you run, that's right. Any of these situations electricals one of the many potential issues that you can have in situations like this. You can step in water and you can be fried. You've just got to be really careful. That's what taking to like I said, I think that's very, very wise in situations like this. And the other thing that I I have a story.
Speaker 5:
But praying is another important thing. I don't know how many deacons pray, but this is one important aspect that, as a deacon, we have before us is to pray. Maybe you want to run to it, but you have time to pray. The Lord is our provider. So we need to encourage our deacons to pray in these situations, as we travel, as we meet with Mike, that God would protect us, keep us and provide for what we need. I can't underestimate. I've got a story, if you want to hear a story.
Speaker 5:
About 30 years ago we had a young family in our congregation with four kids. They had two daughters and they had two younger sons. Their five-year-old, like many of his age, had a Johnny West cowboy action figure that he loved. He played with it all the time and he took it wherever he went. Well, one Sunday morning after the church service, this Sunday morning after the church service, this young boy took the action figure into the bathroom to do his business. Somehow, some way, this Johnny West cowboy figure got dropped into the toilet after he flushed it. Well, he watched in horror as the action figure went down and went out of sight in the toilet. He ran out to his father and says Dad, I lost my action toy down in the toilet, can you help me? So they go get Mr Keys and they say we need your help in the bathroom.
Speaker 5:
And so we went to the bathroom and I stopped and paused. I really stopped and paused and I prayed Lord, would you make sure that we get this toy back and that we don't hurt the septic system and the toilet? And so I reached my hand down in, after I'd prayed, into the toilet as far up as I could get my hand. I felt it with one of my long fingers. I felt the toy and I kept hugging and pulling and eventually I got that action toy out of the toilet. I was so thankful and I took it to the faucet, put on soap and water and I washed my hands in the toy and I gave it back to him. An overjoyed boy looked at me and he yelled thank you, mr Keys, for saving my little John from the big John.
Speaker 5:
That's true, it taught me about prayer. It did. It taught me that prayer. I probably would have still got it without the prayer, but it taught that little boy what deacons do and it taught the little boy that prayer works. And I'm sure it taught the father too. But I didn't even think we just prayed. And what a blessing to see a little boy come and be overjoyed, bob, this story is worth the episode here and be overjoyed, Bob.
Speaker 2:
This story is worth the episode here.
Speaker 5:
I hope everybody now always wants to listen to Reformed Deacon Podcast because of that, I'm just not sure, if I want to shake your hand again. I did tell you I did watch it.
Speaker 3:
There's a reason why I never became a plumber. That's one of them.
Speaker 2:
That's right. That's right. We're going to stop there with this episode, since it's running a bit long, but hang tight because next week we plan to release the other two scenarios this group contemplated, one having to do with some concerns about a newly confirmed deacon and the other about a gay couple asking to use the church building for their wedding. Be sure to come back for those. Thanks for joining us. Go to our website, thereformedeaconorg. There you will find all our episodes, program notes and other helpful resources, and please make plans to join us again next month for another episode of the Reformed Deacon Podcast.