In this episode, Part 2 of "Policies and Procedures", we'll dive into the case of Sam, a candidate with great potential but some rough edges, and discuss the importance of knowing candidates for officers in the church by walking side by side with them. The second scenario, the four deacons tackle the sensitive topic of allowing non-members, particularly same-sex couples, to use church facilities for weddings, and the importance of establishing clear policies aligned with doctrinal values. This episode is packed with practical advice and thoughtful insights on these two interesting scenarios.
You can find all of our episodes at thereformeddeacon.org. Make sure to follow us on your favorite podcast player, so you don't miss an episode. Follow us on Facebook and Instagram for giveaways and more information. Find other resources on OPCCDM.org. Make sure to send us some feedback on your podcast player or ask a diaconal question by going to OPCCDM.org.
In this episode, Part 2 of "Policies and Procedures", we'll dive into the case of Sam, a candidate with great potential but some rough edges, and discuss the importance of knowing candidates for officers in the church by walking side by side with them. The second scenario, the four deacons tackle the sensitive topic of allowing non-members, particularly same-sex couples, to use church facilities for weddings, and the importance of establishing clear policies aligned with doctrinal values. This episode is packed with practical advice and thoughtful insights on these two interesting scenarios.
You can find all of our episodes at thereformeddeacon.org. Make sure to follow us on your favorite podcast player, so you don't miss an episode. Follow us on Facebook and Instagram for giveaways and more information. Find other resources on OPCCDM.org. Make sure to send us some feedback on your podcast player or ask a diaconal question by going to OPCCDM.org.
Doug Vos:
Every church should have a policy for weddings and building use.
David Nakhla:
Welcome to the Reformed Deacon, a casual conversation with topics specifically designed to help local Reformed Deacons. There are nearly a thousand deacons in the OPC alone, so let's take this opportunity to learn from and encourage one another. We're so glad you could join us. Let's jump into our next episode. My name is David Noggle and I serve as the administrator for the OPC Committee on Diaconal Ministries. Thanks for coming back to listen to part two of the Real World Cases, policies and Procedures episode.
David Nakhla:
Our group of four-season deacons Bob Keyes, Doug Voss, Lynne Hunter and John Voss continue considering two more scenarios. Let's get right back into the last two scenarios. You're one of the two busy deacons in a smaller OPC. Your church recently started growing, has just begun to consider candidates for church office. It's welcome news, since your work life has gotten busier.
David Nakhla:
One man being considered for the diaconate, though, has you a bit concerned. Sam's a nice guy, but you'd notice he can sometimes be a little rough around the edges, shall we say. He doesn't seem to initiate conversations or approach newcomers, and you'd notice he can be somewhat abrupt with his family, his wife and his children. He's in church most Sundays. You believe from conversations you've had with him that he loves the Lord has a good grasp of scripture, but wonder about his people skills. An older woman in the church shared with you her apprehensiveness about Sam, which only seemed to elevate your concerns. After he's been examined by the session, you've learned that Sam has been confirmed to be put before the congregation. Should you express your concerns or trust the session knows best.
John Voss:
Too late. The session's confirmed him already.
David Nakhla:
Well, he hasn't been elected yet.
John Voss:
He hasn't been elected yet. I think the elders, while they are the rulers of the church, the elders should be seeking input as well from the deacons. That's my opinion and it is practice at our church. There is a practice before a nomination is confirmed shall we call it or whatever the deacons will be consulted. Now, then again, we also do things a little different, where we're like the model that we came from, where the elders and deacons meet once a month together. You have a council meeting, the elders meet one night, the deacons meet the same night, but they're separate, and then two weeks later you discuss your businesses with each other as much as possible concerning the elders, but the deacons then discuss their business with the elders at that meeting. And that point, that's when we have consultation. We'll just say input. I'll also say this we've never rejected anybody, but I do think it's important that there be some input, because these people have to work together, and just the more input you can get, I think the better off you are.
David Nakhla:
Next John Others.
Bob Keys:
This is the most important topic we have. This topic is about the Church of Jesus Christ. It represents the Church and to me, it's the most important thing that we do. We have had numbers of issues in our church regarding men that were not qualified because of their lives, what they did and how they did it, and we suffered, and the world saw. We suffered from making unwise decisions.
Bob Keys:
We didn't know the men, the deacons and the elders that we put in office, and I'm not going to go into stories, that isn't the right time, but I can tell you we must guard the office of elder deacon. These are offices of leadership and I believe we need discipleship, men's discipleship groups that disciple men before we even start the process of interviewing them and going over theology. We need to know these men thoroughly, inside and out. I mean going to their houses, bringing them to our house, walking side by side with them, getting to know them deeply, before we allow them even to think about becoming elders and deacons, because we have seen the effects of not doing it. And I've talked to my pastors recently pleading with them to be wise, think carefully and let's do discipleship before we even start classes to teach men theology. It's a lot more than theology.
Bob Keys:
You can see this man here has issues with his wife and children. You can see the rough edges. We have members that see it as well. If you put it up for a vote, they'll vote amen because they don't know. Our job as leaders is to protect the office of elder and deacon. They're important offices, they're important offices, they're high offices. They got to be guarded and we are the ones to guard them. You can decide different ways of doing it, but we've got to do it better than we have.
David Nakhla:
Thank you, Bob.
Lynne Hunter:
So I'll jump in from my experience and I think I'm not saying that we have it 100% right, but I think we have a system at Harvest that helps with this. All our men in leadership positions have to go through leadership training class led by one of our elders, and it doesn't matter if you're elder or deacon, you still have to take the exact same class. So that's first point. The second thing is is depending on what office they are going to go in, they end up in a internship program one year before they're even brought to the congregation. So they get go to leadership training, then they get, they have interview with the session, then they end up in as an intern either of the elders or the deacons and the deacon interns. They come to the meetings just like any other deacon. They're allowed to speak at the meetings just like any other deacon.
Lynne Hunter:
We will take them out for visiting on certain cases. So we see them perform for a year and a couple of times they weeded themselves out, realized no, this is not for me. Other times we've gone back to the session and said this person needs more training in this. We have two interns right now that ask can we intern for another year. One had just gotten married and has a child and he wants to see how it's going to work with the family before he jumps into this full-time all the time. So even in a small church, one or two deacons, I would suggest that you come up with training and time for testing before we go put a person to the congregation.
David Nakhla:
Yeah, let a man be tested before he serves, isn't that? It sounds like a biblical concept.
John Voss:
Yep, john. So when they're interning, how involved do they end up being when you're considering a case or cases? Because they're not yet ordained, but they're going to be hearing information. You know private personal information. Are they allowed in on that?
Lynne Hunter:
Yep, they're allowed in on it. We have a deacon's meeting tonight where there will be a father at that deacon's meeting that is going to be talking about some personal things. Those interns will be in that meeting but they are told, you know, when they come on board they're told that this is the rules that we abide by. You know, they get the same treatment as everybody else and most of the times the younger ones, the ones that just started out, kind of sit there and just listen, don't say anything. The younger ones, the ones that just started out, kind of sit there and just listen, don't say anything. And then you can see as they mature in their internship they get a little bit more bold to speak.
John Voss:
Oh, okay, it's a good concept actually.
Bob Keys:
We do that. We have an internship, we do similar things as you do, but what my concern is is that if you aren't walking side by side with a man, you don't know him Right, and I am really saying you've got to know, really know these men before you allow them to take the office, because we have been burned and it's hurt, it's hurt our congregation and hurt our witness. I like what you're doing, but I think you can still get full. You really have to know these men and we did not know some of the other men that we've had up for office before. Really know them, and I think you need a couple of deacons and elders really listening carefully to their family and to them and watching them Every step. You've got to know them. I've learned this out of 40 years. You've got to know the men that are going up for leadership. If you don't know them, the church will be hurt.
Lynne Hunter:
Bob, this is pointed at you but anybody can jump in. Does your church practice church visitation, and do you do it with an elder and a deacon or just the elders?
Bob Keys:
We haven't had as much visitation as we needed, but I am starting this month, in two weeks, to visit with my elder. I have a new elder. He's been a deacon for 10 years Now. He's a he's an elder and we're going to do a visitation on a regular basis to all the people in our care, our shepherding group, and I can't wait, I can't wait. This is going to give me an opportunity to to encourage our congregants, to use their gifts, to encourage them the gifts I know and begin to know what kind of situations we have in terms of men that would be good deacons and elders in our church as well. So working together with an elder, I think, is critical and so important in the shepherding and care in a congregation.
David Nakhla:
Other thoughts. Anybody else got any thoughts on this. Do you guys think that you should speak to Sam about these concerns? Do you think that would be fruitful?
Doug Vos:
I think you should have a private conversation with Sam and talk to him about his people skills understanding. He has a good grasp of scripture. I would appeal to him with scripture, come armed and ready with a number of scripture passages that talk about the fruit of the spirit, talk about correcting and gentleness. Try and work it through with them. I mean, you might even find that you are serving with another deacon that sometimes has a short fuse right and he's already in the diaconate. That happens from time to time.
Doug Vos:
You'll find that you're in a church Not all the deacons and elders are always going to see eye to eye about everything, so it's how to have healthy discussions together without getting angry at each other, right.
Doug Vos:
So it may work out for Sam, but I mean, if he's not ready, like I'm so glad to hear about the churches that have internships we talked about that a bit in our congregation with the next group of deacons that we're bringing in is have the classroom instruction, go through all the theology, talk through some case studies, watch some old videos from deacon summits, listen to some reformed deacon podcasts and then do an internship, and the whole time working through, does this deacon exhibit the fruit of the Spirit If they don't. One of the notes here is just talking about do they have people skills? It looks like they don't have people skills. Work through that with people, brother, we know you know scripture, but let's work on some gentleness and kindness and love. And how do we exhibit that to our families and to our people? It's something to keep working on for everybody, I think.
David Nakhla:
More could be said, but let's keep rolling to our last scenario. You're about to lock up the building, Sunday afternoon. You're the only one around. Which of you does that describe the last guy around? That's us, that's my family. We're usually the last ones around.
David Nakhla:
Just as you're about to head out, two women walk through the door. They greet you in a friendly, normal manner. After a quick greeting and a little bit of an awkward pause, one of the girls say that we have a question for you. We love your building. We want to host a wedding here. Do you allow outsiders to have their wedding here?
David Nakhla:
In a friendly manner, you say yeah, at times we have allowed non-members to host a wedding here. It's not something we do all the time, but sure we'd consider it. Do you know when you're thinking? She says the dates are flexible and would like to do it next summer, which is almost a year away, but that date will be chosen based on the availability of the building. You say great, we have a couple of deacons that handle this. She gets a huge smile on her face, turns to the other girl and says honey, we found our wedding place. You're now worried that if you say no, there will be a lawsuit. All right, brothers, what do you do? Are there policies your church ought to have or has in place to aid you? Maybe you could describe what those are.
John Voss:
We have a policy, and I think every church, especially in this day and age, needs to have specific policy about this. Obviously, if you're a member of the church member in good standing then of course the answer would be yes, except in this case because of the two women. We have upon occasion allowed non-covenant OPC members or people to be married in our church, but only from other Reformed denominations that the OPC has relations with. So we've had a PCA couple. We've had members of other OPC congregations that have been. You know, you're more than welcome, but If you don't have that policy, you're walking.
John Voss:
This is a walking invitation to confront the other side of the world but also find out what can happen when you aren't prepared properly.
John Voss:
And the deacons need to take a step up in this too, as well as the elders, of course. But the deacons need to be some of these guys that need to be involved in this too, as well as the elders, of course. But the deacons need to be some of these guys that need to be involved in this. This is in our church anyways. It was a deacon matter of setting up these policies as far as use of the building, because in our church, the deacons are not just benevolence but also in finances, and we'll call it the capital of the church, of the congregation. And so, yeah, we've got. We set policies up like this just in anticipation of this kind of stuff. Maybe you wouldn't have done this 40, 50 years ago, but today you've got to be prepared for it. And as far as getting out of this, once they said that he would say, well, we still have to get this approved by the elders of the church and then at that point now you can take them down a notch, prepare them for a possible rejection.
Doug Vos:
Others. Yeah, I would just reiterate, really, what John said is every church should have a policy for weddings and building use, so hosting all kinds of things dinners, dances, weddings. People are going to ask if you've got a nice fellowship hall that's got a lot of space and people want to use it for a family reunion, whatever. It should all go through a review and one person shouldn't commit, just like in some of the other scenarios we talked about today. It's not a good idea to for one person to promise anything you know, say, okay, let's check on that for you.
Doug Vos:
maybe there's an online form for them to fill out, like a Google form or something, to fill out their name, address, phone number, why they want to use it. Of course, this girl, kind of like snuck up on them, surprised them with this, so that's a very difficult situation, but that's why you need a policy in place in the first place.
David Nakhla:
You need to have a policy in place and your deacons need to know about the policy.
John Voss:
Yeah, the deacon or deacons need to be prepared to give that answer. That's right, almost automatically. That's right we can consider.
Bob Keys:
Bob, I think wording is always so important in our policies. We need a lot of wisdom on exactly how to do it so that we have flexibility but that we eliminate the possible things for our protection. Planning a policy for protection is what I PPP. Planning a policy for protection that doesn't mean we have to stick with everything. Protection, that doesn't mean we have to stick with everything. I like the idea of being able to move out in certain cases, but it's got to be worded so that we restrict and protect our churches from lawsuits and the world pointing their finger at the church. And so wording is important and I encourage us to think about how we word it so that we do it right is important, and I encourage us to think about how we word it so that we do it right.
David Nakhla:
We heard what John's church's policy is. If you know what your church's, policy is.
Bob Keys:
Would you guys mind sharing? It, I think ours is we only have members for weddings. And again I think we have room to maneuver that a little bit. But we make it clear we don't want to have any issues and we make it very clear members in good standing and so again, but we we can move around it, but in general we just don't want any problems.
Bob Keys:
And so we have clear, clear wording that we can show anyone that wants to see it. This is our normal policy, that we normally use, and this is how we, how we run.
David Nakhla:
Yep. Thank you, L ynne.
Lynne Hunter:
We have a policy we do allow our building to be used by outside people. In this situation, myself, or the other two or three people that would be the last ones in the building, would know that our response would be you will have to call the secretary on Tuesday morning to get the forms that will have to be filled out, and the building committee will review it at the appropriate time. Yep.
David Nakhla:
Good. Well, thank you, brothers, for being here today. This has been super helpful, lots of good insight. Thank you for your service to the church over your years and even in this way, and we just hope that our fellow deacons will find this discussion helpful and encouraging as they labor for their congregations in Christ's name and for the deacons listening today. Is there a diaconal situation you'd like to have discussed on the Reformed deacon? Maybe you're struggling with a particular circumstance at your church that you might like a few seasoned deacons to help with. We hope to record an episode soon where we take audience questions, after removing names and identifiable details, of course. Send your questions to mail M-A-I-L at thereformedeacon. org. Mail at thereformedeacon. org. Thank you, brothers.
Bob Keys:
Thank you.
David Nakhla:
Thanks for joining us. Go to our website, thereformeddeacon. org. There you will find all our episodes, program notes, and other helpful resources, and please make plans to join us again next month for another episode of the Reformed Deacon Podcast.