Bonus – Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery transcript
Race, Faith, and Social Action
Méli [00:00:05]:
Hello and welcome to Living Our Beliefs, a home for open conversations with fellow Christians, Jews, and Muslims. Through personal stories and reflection, we will explore how our religious traditions show up in daily life. I am your host, Meli Solomon. So glad you could join us. This podcast is part of my Talking with God Project. To learn more about that research and invite me to give a talk or workshop, go to my website, www.talkingwithgodproject.org. This is episode number 69. And my guest today is reverend doctor Terrlyn Curry Avery.
She was already my guest on the first episode of the year, number 58, and has returned for this bonus episode. As such, we will focus on the topic rather than her personal faith path. In this case, we will talk more deeply about her work on dismantling racism, how that relates to DEIB, diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging, as well as the relationship between social justice action and awareness of difference. If you have not already listened to her earlier episode, I encourage you to do so. Though today's discussion stands on its own. A link to her earlier episode is in the show notes. To learn more about Terrlyn’s work and her two books, dismantling racism, healing separation from the inside out and Sacred Intelligence, the essence of sacred selfish and shared relationships, check out her social media link which are listed in the show notes. Hello, Terrlyn.
Méli [00:02:05]:
Welcome back to my Living Our Beliefs podcast. For this bonus session, we will talk about DEI and your work in anti-Racism. So good morning.
Terrlyn [00:02:19]:
Good morning. Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited about our conversation.
Méli [00:02:24]:
Alright. DEI, diversity, equity, and inclusion. I know you do various trainings. You have done all kinds of trainings. I'd like you to, though, explain how you talk about what you help people with.
Terrlyn [00:02:43]:
So my work is really around helping people to manifest their greatness and learning how to tap into what I call their sacred intelligence, going inward so that they make choices that are going to be good for them as well as good for other people. So when I talk about doing work on dismantling racism, I don't actually categorize myself as a DEI specialist. Though I have been doing the work of dismantling racism now since the nineties, it is just one of the pieces of the work that I do as what I call a pastologist. Right? I have merged psychology and theology together, and it's really, again, about bringing out the best in people. So now when we talk about dismantling racism, we cannot be our best selves unless, one, we deal with the issues that are relevant to those who have been oppressed and those who are the oppressors. And how do we come together as a group of people and do what is best for our shared humanity. And so that's the lens from which I look at when I'm talking about dismantling racism. I believe that we all come from the same sacred source.
Terrlyn [00:03:57]:
Doesn't matter what our skin tone is, our race is, gender, sexuality, none of that. At the same time that we all come from that, we live in a world that's been racially constructed. It's a social construct. So I deal with the reality of what we're faced within the world, but understanding that we're all a part of this higher level of consciousness. So, really, when I talk about the work I do, it is really, really around helping people to be their best selves and to give their best selves to the world while helping the world, you know, be their best self to manifest their greatness as well.
Méli [00:04:36]:
I do, though, want to better understand the relationship between what your focus on the antiracism and what is so often called DEI or or even DEIB, diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging. Are you seeing the the antiracism focus as a slight shift in focus, or is it a subset, or is it actually an umbrella? What's the relationship?
Terrlyn [00:05:10]:
It's a great question. And here's the difference between what I do and what I consider DEIB. Right? So with DEIB, people want to talk about everything, gender, sexuality, ageism, and any other kind of ism, and they want to do these trainings where they lump all of those things together. While I think each of those areas are important, I only focus on racism. Now why do I only focus on racism and race? Because it is the one area where we are most uncomfortable talking about race and racism. And from where I stand in terms of my trainings, if I can get you to see how race matters and how you're showing up in society as a racial individual, a racialized individual, how that is impacting other folks, how it's impacting you internally. If I can get you to understand that, it will translate into every other area. So what do I mean by that? Sometimes I'll have people say to me, well, my concern is for LGBTQIA issues.
Terrlyn [00:06:34]:
I don't have the space to deal with issues of racism right now. And I always say, but you can't afford not to. That's the first thing, because it's impacting all of us. But secondly, if you understand race and racism and how it is infused in every part of our lives, then you will understand the intersectionality of racism. So for instance, one particular person I was talking to, and this was at the height of, like, 2020 when everything was happening, this particular person said I need to focus on the LGBTQIA issues. And I understood why it was a personal thing for them. And I said, but do you understand that more transgender individuals of color are murdered than white. So you can still focus on transgender issues.
Terrlyn [00:07:30]:
But now let's talk about the intersectionality of race with that. And that's one of the things I just want to get people to understand. I often talk to business people when I'm doing coaching with them, and I will say things like, look at your marketing materials. If you have all white people in your marketing materials, you've just told people like me that you don't see me, that I either have to come and just accept whatever you are offering as a white person, and I just have to deal with it. Or if you include some people of color, that lets me know that you at least see that there's a difference, that you have to market to all people. Now what some people did in 2020 and 2021, they just start throwing up people, you know, in their marketing materials. But then what I would have to say when I'm coaching those people, how does that translate, though, into your language? How does that translate into how you're engaging with people of color when you are in the room with them? So that's why it matters that we talk about this. We can't just leave it aside if we're going to be inclusive. So I try to stay away from the whole DEIB as it relates to me being categorized in that way because I'm only here to talk about how do we dismantle racism in this country and actually beyond.
Méli [00:09:06]:
So a couple of things. One, I'm hearing you talk about race as a proxy. And that stood out for me because in my work focusing on religion and how we get along across religions or even intra religiously, I talk about religion as a proxy for other kinds of bridging differences. So that's 1. The second is I'm glad you mentioned intersectionality because I think that's that's a really important word to bring into this conversation, and I'm glad it came in early. But I think it's really important to to see that and how individuals do have these different rankings. The last point is what I'm really hearing as an umbrella issue is, are we seeing people? Are you, as a black woman in America, seen? Am I, as a Jewish person, seen? You know? And for me, I'm white, but my Jewish identity is the minority element that tends to have friction in society. So that's why I make that point. Okay. What got you started in this work?
Terrlyn [00:10:34]:
So my mind is roaming back to growing up as a child in Mississippi. And I grew up in a predominantly black community, loving, wonderful, wonderful community. The way it is down south, in this rural south. Right? So you have black people and then you could go a few miles and then there are white people. I mean, you could live close to one another, but you always knew that there was a difference between white and black. So, anyway, I always knew I went to a predominantly black school in the predominantly black colleges, and I just had this strong sense of who I was being raised in the community that I was raised in. I grew up about 45 minutes outside of Memphis, Tennessee where Martin Luther King was killed. So I grew up having a strong sense of who I am as a person of color.
Terrlyn [00:11:29]:
And then I began to see really the big differences between how white folks were treated and black folks. And I'm only gonna use black and white because when I grew up in Mississippi, either black or white. There were a few others, so to speak, but you still were in a category. And I think just having a strong sense of injustice, of seeing that we were not treated fairly. And so I always knew I wanted to work with, quote, unquote, the inner city kids. When I became a psychologist, that was my goal because I felt like I wanted to to just be immersed in there and to help in any way that I could. And when I started doing that, I also started doing trainings. Even at the graduate level, I would train my colleagues around just differences because you have to know when you're treating someone even from a psychological standpoint.
Terrlyn [00:12:26]:
You need to understand how I come to the table as a black woman versus how a white woman comes to the table. And you need to understand you cannot treat everybody the same way. So I began doing this work as a graduate student, and then it just continued as I, you know, developed my career out into the world. I always wanted to show people a different viewpoint than they had of the children, for instance, that they were working with. So when I worked in a predominantly black and brown school with mostly white teachers, I needed them to humanize the students that they were working with and to understand you have to treat them differently, perhaps. There were wonderful, wonderful teachers. Don't get me wrong. But you can't just say children are children.
Terrlyn [00:13:17]:
They come with a different cultural background, a different racial background, different systems that are oppressing them. So when we look at things like, you know, why are they late for school? Or why don't these parents come to a parent teacher conference where they're trying to work 3 jobs? And so they perhaps can't get here when you want them to come for a parent teacher meeting in the middle of the day. But if you don't understand those dynamics, you say, well, those parents are just lazy or they don't care about their kids. So it was important to me for them to understand, no, it's not just about what you're seeing based on your experience as a white person. You must understand their experiences based on who they are and how the system is. I didn't understand until I went to the city area just how vastly different things were for for people of color in terms of the oppression and poverty and all of that. I knew it down south, but I knew it in a very different way when I really just got to see the disparities. And I also was older.
Terrlyn [00:14:32]:
I I think my parents had sheltered us from a lot. But when you grow up in a loving community, it just feels like, hey. You know? Because if you didn't have something, you go to neighbor's house, you borrow it, and that's the end of it. And it which is which is also very interesting, if I could just share a story. There was a white family that lived up the street from us or up the road, and they were truly, truly impoverished, impoverished and uneducated. And they still thought they were better than us, even though they had to come and borrow stuff from us all the time. And no matter what they said about us, my mother would always let them borrow it. And so what that taught me too is about loving humanity in spite of humanity.
Terrlyn [00:15:17]:
So for me, when I do this work on dismantling racism, I don't have to like who the individual is that shows up to do a training. I don't have to like what they're saying and what they're about, but I do have to love them. And then it's from that loving place, and this gets to being that pastor as well and my connection with God and living my faith. It is about how can I help you to see the humanity and the divinity in the other person that you are hating so much?
Méli [00:15:52]:
Once again, I feel like a moment of breath is called for after each of your wonderful answers. So, again, without using the word intersectionality, race and economic level in society. And, you know, thank you for noting the white family down the road when you were a child. It's so important to just really say out loud, even though they were borrowing things from your family, they still saw themselves as better than you. Yeah. This is a really ugly reality of American society, and, unfortunately, it's still with us. It's different. And as you say, it was different in the city than in the country.
It's different in the south than in the north. And, you know, there are these differences. So I think it's it's important when we talk about these things and the scourge that it is in our country that we acknowledge these variations in quantity and in quality around the country?
Terrlyn [00:17:09]:
The interesting thing about the South and the North, I feel like this is really important to say, people in the South know where they stand with one another. And in the North, I think people wanna think that they're more loving and liberal and accepting. And then the bottom line is those things that we've learned about racism and races and just being in a white supremacy system, those things start coming out when stuff happens. It comes out before you know it. I always say to people, Amy Cooper didn't go to that park that day thinking she was going to call the cops on a black man. Now regardless of what happened in that park, we we only know the little bit of what we've heard, but the fact that you can now use the excuse, I'm gonna tell them that this is a black man. You know, because that's what you've been taught. She probably never thought she would do that before that day.
Terrlyn [00:18:06]:
But if we do not talk about racism, if we do not talk about how it is ingrained in us, we will shock ourselves when we show up like that. Getting back to the other issue, if we can think about how it shows up with race, we can begin to do it when we're talking about, how does this show up when I'm talking about gender or sexuality, and I'm even more and more conscious about the ways in which when I'm talking, when I just say he, she. Why? Because I've had to think so much in terms of talking about race that now I have to say, well, wait a minute, who am I leaving out? Or if I think about people who are, especially as I get older, who might have some challenges with mobility or some sort of disability or something. I can think more consciously about it now.
Méli [00:19:03]:
Yeah. Absolutely. And really what you're talking about, and and you are so right, is awareness. Are we aware of these other elements? Whether it's race, religion, age, sexuality, you name it. What it brings up for me is this question of focusing on raising awareness versus focusing on social action. And I'm curious about your feelings about that because I get asked about this in my work.
Terrlyn [00:19:39]:
So I think that there are a couple of things I would say about this, and one is being clear about what social action means. Because once you're aware of something, it's incumbent to do something about it. But what you do about it depends on where you are in life and what you have the capacity to do. So what do I mean by that? I am more conscious, let's say, about transgender issues than I was maybe 5 years ago. Is it the cause that I am going to go out and to champion, so to speak, because am I going to do engage in the social action work of it in the same way that I do dismantling racism? Probably not because I don't have the capacity to do that. But here is what I can do from a social action standpoint. When I go to my doctor's office and they only have he, she, I can say, why don't you have another category? And that's a simple thing. When I'm preaching from the pulpit, anything in my liturgy that just says he, she, I know to change that to he, she, they, or to say kindred.
Terrlyn [00:20:57]:
For years, I have not referred to God as he. So when I do a liturgy and particularly the person who assist me with it, they know don't ever include anything that has he in it, unless you're making a reference, because for us, Jesus is essential. So if you're making a reference to Jesus, Jesus was historically a he. So I am not engaged in social action on a big platform about it, but I'm subtly I'm changing the minds of the folks that I have an impact on. And I'd like to think if I'm doing that and I'm planting a seed, it gives someone else the fuel who may have the capacity to do the actual work, it might make them think differently. And the other thing is, I hope that if I'm changing my language to be more inclusive, there will be that soul out there that's been wounded by the church who will say, that's the church that I wanna go to because they get me and they understand me. So that's how I see the difference between awareness and social action. It's about at what level of advocacy are you able to participate in? Because awareness should bring about change.
Terrlyn [00:22:19]:
Awareness should be if I'm sitting in my family conversations, and we all have family conversations where people just say crazy stuff about some group of of of individuals. When I raise my awareness, I get to say, you can't say that around me. I mean, I've been on a plane. I can remember I was flying out to California and I was sitting next to a white man. He's talking to me. And then he referred to people as trailer trash. And this was in Palm Springs. He says, trailer trash.
Terrlyn [00:22:53]:
I said, you you can't say trailer trash in front of me. It's not appropriate. Then he's he's going even further. He's like, well, this is Palm Spring trailer trash. I said, no. But what you're doing is you're calling people trash, and that's not okay. People can't say white trash in front of me because it's not okay. Because, really, what you're doing in that white trash statement, you're saying everybody else other than white people are trash, but then you're the worst of the worst if you're white trash.
Terrlyn [00:23:24]:
So that's what awareness does, is that we can no longer sit in silence in places where we sat in silence before. During the height of the George Floyd outrage and when I was in trainings, I saw so many hurt white people in my training classes because they were hurt about the conversations their families were having. They were hurt because they didn't know how to deal with those conversations, And they were hurt because they thought racism didn't exist in this way. And how can you in 2020, with all that we were seeing on TV, how could we not know that racism existed? That's why we have to talk about race. Getting back to our very first question, we cannot leave it off the table.
Méli [00:24:13]:
Yeah. Absolutely not. I mean, no argument there. But we have acknowledged, and I think it's important to acknowledge that there are so many challenges calling for our attention. And I really appreciate this distinction you're making. What is the level of your advocacy? That's that's terrific languaging. Thank you for that. So race is a social construct.
Méli [00:24:45]:
I'm then reminded of something that came up. In my memory, it was around Obama's presidency, where there was talk about whether we were now in a post black society. Is my memory correct that it was around Obama?
Terrlyn [00:25:03]:
Yes. That we had transcended race.
Méli [00:25:05]:
We had transcended race. Is this even possible? Are we ever going to transcend race? Would we even want to?
Terrlyn [00:25:12]:
That's a beautiful question. I think we need to transcend racism. And is it possible to do that? I wanna keep fighting for the possibilities of us doing it. It may not be in our lifetime, but I believe that it is possible. We've seen a lot of changes over the years. Right? But here's the thing about race. Now that it's a social construct, I want you to see that I'm a black woman. When I say to people, when they say I don't see color, I said, that's not true.
Terrlyn [00:25:45]:
When I walk into this room, are you going to tell me that you don't know that I'm a Black woman? That's the first thing that you notice. And I want you to notice me as a Black woman because I entered this space differently than many other women who walk into this room. And if you don't understand who I am as a black woman, I may not come in smiling all the time because when I come into a room of white folks, I might be checking out the scene. I come in already with, is there anybody else black that's going to be in this space? Is there anyone here that I'm going to be comfortable with? Now at this age, I I'm comfortable with who I'm comfortable with, and I just enter a space. So I I'm just kind of talking in general. Right? Do I have to be bicultural in this space, or is there someone who gets me? Even when I do trainings on racism, particularly early on in my life, I had to think about what I was going to wear when I trained or what I'm going to wear when I enter a space because I know that people are making a judgment about that when I walk in. And so if you were to see me though, as a black woman, your assessment of me might be different rather than from a place of judgment. It might be different.
Terrlyn [00:27:10]:
Like, this is who she is as a black woman and culturally. If you know that about me, then you know, for instance, if I'm making a decision about something, I I'm going to go back and discuss that with the family because collectively, you know, as a community, we discuss these things. You might also understand how religion plays in my life if you understand me as a black woman. However, if you say, well, we are all women and we're all the same, you're going to miss out on something that's critical to interacting with me. So I don't ever want people to transcend the place where they don't see that part of my identity. Yes. I'm just in this human body. Yes.
Terrlyn [00:27:58]:
We're all divine beings. I get that. I know that, But I love my experience as a black woman, just as you love your Jewish heritage. And it's important to you that I see that piece of you. It's important that people see that for me too.
Méli [00:28:14]:
Yeah. Thanks for making that distinction. And, again, what's getting fronted is this question of being seen. Mhmm. And being seen in the uniqueness and the diversity that is the world. Right? This is I mean, we're talking about America, but, you know, this is the world. There are all kinds of people living all kinds of lives. I, for 1, find that interesting and a positive, but it does seem to provoke a tremendous amount of anxiety for some folks.
Méli [00:28:50]:
You know, really, I think the folks, the white folks, especially the straight white men, sorry to say, who see this kind of conversation, see the the trainings and the conversations, the encouragement, or the the injunction. Right? If it's a law to talk about race and diversity and all of that. What I understand is coming up for them is I'm gonna lose out on my privilege. I'm gonna lose out on what I have had and the respect and the higher social place that I have had and that I feel I deserve. This seems to be well, it's surely incredibly corrosive and a real challenge to deal with, for sure. But sometimes I must say it feels intractable. Does it feel that way for you or are you maybe you're a glass half full kind of person.
Terrlyn [00:30:03]:
I am.
Méli [00:30:05]:
Good. But This is probably necessary.
Terrlyn [00:30:08]:
I think you're yes. It is necessary because, otherwise, it would be too daunting. And I think what's coming up for me as you're asking the question as we're thinking about white men feeling like something is going to be taken away, My question is, why do you feel like it all has to belong to you? And part of it is the scarcity mentality too, that if we share with other people, we're going to miss out. And the truth of the matter is if you share with other people, things are just going to get better for you. But I actually have had white men in trainings who get it, who understand it, And there are white men who are actually out here committed to doing this work because they understand it. And so I want to give them credit for the work that they're doing. But what happens with white men, they fear one another as well. So I had a gentleman who was on my my radio show.
Terrlyn [00:31:07]:
He said, well, you know, the truth is I'm afraid of white men, and he's doing a lot of this work. He's doing work around maleness stuff. Right? Trying to get men to be a little bit more talkative and having conversations and being a little bit more vulnerable and things like that. But he talked with me about race. And I said, why are you afraid of white men? He said, I don't want them coming after me because I know that they don't wanna hear this stuff, and I don't wanna get the phone calls. I don't wanna get the emails. I don't wanna do all of that. And so if a white male who is sort of at the top is saying, I don't want to feel that, it helps me to think about how other white men are hesitant to have this conversation.
Terrlyn [00:31:55]:
I also know that a second component is, and I've heard this from white men, is that when you use terms like white privilege, for them, it's just like saying that they didn't have to work hard for what they got. That I think that things are easy for them. And that's not what we're saying. We're not saying that you didn't work hard to get to the top of your game, but what we are saying is that you have some advantages that I don't have as a black woman, a white woman, a black man, or Latin, whatever the the case may be, is that at least you're starting out a little bit ahead. So imagine the struggles you've had as a white man, and now double and triple that for others. And so I think it really is about languaging and helping people to understand. I still don't take away from the using words like white privilege and white supremacy, but it's about helping people to understand what those constructs mean. I do think it's possible, and I do think that there are white men out there who are willing to do this work.
Méli [00:33:05]:
So glad to hear that. And I appreciate you mentioning this issue. For whom is there a thumb on the scale?
Terrlyn [00:33:15]:
There's a wonderful article for your listeners. It's very old, and it was written by Peggy McIntosh. It's called white privilege unpacking the knapsack. And in that article, she actually does a series of questions to help people to think about white privilege. There's also one around LGBTQIA issues. It really brings your awareness up to things like now it's it's it's old, so it would say, you know, like, when I walk in to a store, for instance, I expect to see a person of authority that looks like me, or I can go buy flesh colored Band Aids. Well, now I can actually buy flesh colored Band Aids, but I couldn't before. Basic things.
Terrlyn [00:34:02]:
And so it's probably been updated, you know, at some point, but these are things that raise our awareness about color and race and all of those other things. And so for your listeners, if they walk away with anything that we are saying today, is how can I raise my awareness so that I can be more racially conscious? That would be magnificent. And all they have to do is to look around, look around at the tapestry, their environment. What are you seeing? And if you're only seeing white, why are you only seeing white? When I taught at one of the local colleges here in Connecticut, it was astounding to see how many students I had who had never had a black teacher or professor, but not only had they never had a black teacher or professor, what was astounding is that they had never gone to school with a black person, period. I'm talking just a few years ago when I served as adjunct or was a a visiting professor. That's outrageous to me. Like like, you live in a place where you see only the same, but I'm I'm sure there's students of color who maybe they've never seen a white person in their their life either. So
Méli [00:35:18]:
It's situational. When I was living in Berlin, Germany, I met people who had never met a Jew. I'm talking adults. I have to say, that is a heavy responsibility. Absolutely. To be the first person you are now, capital r representative of your group.
Terrlyn [00:35:37]:
Uh-huh. I was
Méli [00:35:38]:
like, oh my god. Now I have to explain the holidays and the history and on and on and on. Yeah. It's a lot.
Terrlyn [00:35:48]:
Yeah. Absolutely.
Méli [00:35:50]:
Okay. The time is really running on, but I just can't let you go without spending at least a few moments on faith. So you've described yourself as a pastologist. And in all of this talk about anti racism and raising awareness, I'm curious to hear about how your faith informs your social justice view and your work.
Terrlyn [00:36:20]:
So there are 2 things. 1, God is love. And I live by the scripture of you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength, and love your neighbor as yourself. And so if I am to love God, I have to practice loving myself. 1st and foremost, I'm not one of those people who say, oh, you gotta put everybody else first. No. I gotta love me in order to pour out love to other folks. And so showing that love means that I should be concerned about the welfare of other folks.
Terrlyn [00:36:51]:
And, also, I believe in the radical revolutionary Jesus. Not not this Jesus that that is proclaiming only wanting to help one group of people. There's a scripture where Jesus says that I've come to set the captive free and to give sight to the blind. And it is important for me to live out my faith to be an advocate for others. And people of color, and particularly when we look at racism, and I'm gonna say black people because I'm gonna speak from the perspective of enslavement in the United States, Enslavement ended in the physical sense, but there's still other ways that's that we are enslaved as a people, economically, educationally, financially. And it is my responsibility based on my faith and what I know that God requires of me. And if I say that I am a follower of the radical revolutionary Jesus, I cannot just be a person who preaches from the pulpit, but I'm not living out what I am called to live out. What I know Jesus did was to go outside the margins to help the people who other folks could not see.
Terrlyn [00:38:14]:
And in my daily work, that is what I do is to try to reach the people who are lost, and it's not about just proselytizing people to believe in a certain type of God. That's not what my faith is, but it's about teaching you to live to your highest level of consciousness and your highest level of divinity. And in order for you to do that, you you you have to advocate for those people who can't do it for themselves. And once I'm able to advocate for them, then maybe it'll bring them into a place when they have better opportunities to see that they're more than what people call them. And then I look at people who are my ancestors. I look at people like Harriet Tubman who understood that she was not meant to be enslaved, even though she had a slave bible that was teaching her otherwise. She understood from the bigger connection with God, I'm not meant to be enslaved, and she allowed her faith to move her forward. So I personally am moved by my ancestors.
Terrlyn [00:39:19]:
I'm moved by my mother and father who taught me what it meant to have faith in God and to keep moving. I feel like I don't have any other choice but to answer this calling, to be out here and do the work of advocating. And it's only my faith when I look around and say, god, this world is really an ugly place, and I know this is not reality. I know that there's a better life. I know that I'm more than this. I know that there's more than what's going on in this world, that there's a greater depth of love that's available to us, And I wanna live in that space, even in the midst of the chaos. I live in that space, and it's that love that propels me forward to do the work that I do. And it's that love that helps me in my teaching because many people, regardless of color, who come to my trainings are like, is there any hope? They ask the same question that you're asking.
Is there any hope? And I say, yes. And we are the hope. We are the ones that we've been waiting for. So that's how my faith propels me forward.
Méli [00:40:28]:
And again, I say amen. So really what I'm hearing is a question of what is the source of our learning, and what is the source of our knowing and inspiration?
Terrlyn [00:40:43]:
Yes. Yes. Scripture,
Méli [00:40:48]:
family, community, larger society, history, our own experience. I'm so glad you have the hope, and I have the hope too. Lots of people don't. Right? Hope is not equally distributed. The other thing that I'm so aware of in even saying what I just said is that when we look at something like scripture, and I you know, it was important to me to ask you about your faith. Scripture also has some really ugly parts in it. For you, God is love. Right? And I love the Bible quote that that you bring out.
But one of the things that I struggle with is scripture that has a countervailing message. This is now revealing an aspect of Jewish experience. We're always encouraged to question and debate. This is very powerful in our communities, and I resolve that discomfort by acknowledging that those ugly bits are also part of human experience.
Terrlyn [00:42:12]:
Listen. This is really a part 3 for us to get into because even before you got to that point, when I heard you recapping about learnings and society, inscription, all that, the thing that I said, oh, I gotta remember to say and question. Right? And so you got to that point by saying in your faith, you're encouraged to learn and debate. I grew up Presbyterian. I ask a 1,000,001 questions, and and it's encouraged for us in our tradition. You don't check your brain at the door just because you believe in a particular faith tradition. I do not believe every single word in that Bible. Now that creates a problem for people because they're saying you're picking and choosing.
Terrlyn [00:42:57]:
No. I'm not picking and choosing. What I'm doing is is I'm I know how the Bible was constructed. I also know that even when I preach, there's a part of Terrellan that's going into preaching. So you're gonna tell me the folks who wrote the biblical text didn't have a part of them going into it? I also know it's been translated multiple times. And so I have to look for the consistency of who God is and what the message of God is. It's not so important to me whether the world was created in 7 days or not. What is important to me is to know that God loves me despite what I might do.
Terrlyn [00:43:37]:
And so I'm able to look at the text and find myself as a human being in that text and really say, how do I wrestle with who I am in that text and how God shows up? And that is what really the teaching ought to be about. Not so much about whether that story was true or x y z. It's really about how do we show up ultimately, how do we show up in love? So for instance, I'm on a pastor's council, and I did a a meditation with them yesterday around the 10 leopards who came and said to Jesus to heal me. And I said, how are we? How are we as pastors like those leopards? Or how do we push people out in society? How are we accepting that one person who was who was different from how we expect them to be? That's the challenge, is to find ourselves in those scriptural texts in a way that comes out understanding who God is and who we are in relationship to the God we serve. And that God will never ever tell us to do something that's going to hurt other people. That's why and I know we don't have chance to get on this, but that's why we can't believe these people who are out here proclaiming to be Christian, who are claiming something other than love. And when you are proclaiming that it is your way and that's the only way and that you're killing and you're hurting people in the name of god, that is not of god at all.
Méli [00:45:20]:
I'll just wrap that by saying we're talking about scripture as the operating system, as a manual for life.
Terrlyn [00:45:31]:
Yes. Yes. Yes. Perfect. But understanding that manual, You gotta understand the manual. Right?
Méli [00:45:38]:
Well, you have to read the manual first.
Terrlyn [00:45:40]:
Well right. Exactly. Exactly.
Méli [00:45:44]:
Alright. Oh, golly jeez. Another fantastic conversation, Turlyn. Thank you again so much for coming back on my Living Our Beliefs podcast. What a joy.
Terrlyn [00:45:55]:
Thank you so much for having me. I enjoyed the conversation.
Méli [00:46:02]:
Thank you so much for listening. This Living Our Beliefs podcast is part of my Talking with God Project. In that research, I explore how Jews, Christians and Muslims live their faith, including their sense of God, prayer practice and how faith is present in daily life. If you'd like to keep up to date about the project, subscribe to my twice monthly newsletter at www.talkingwithgodproject.org. A link is in the show notes. Thanks so much for tuning in. Till next time. Bye bye.