The Enneagram and Islam – Najiba Akbar

Episode 70.
Najiba is the Muslim chaplain at Tufts University and a life coach. She holds a B.A. in Peace and Justice Studies from Wellesley College and a Masters in Social Work from Boston College. Her passion is to facilitate pathways for people to discover and develop their whole selves - spiritually, psychologically, emotionally, intuitively and more. She believes that we each have our own unique path to forge when it comes to our journey to know ourselves and ultimately to know God. In this episode, we explore the Enneagram system and the connection Najiba sees between the ancient system and Islam. 

Highlights:
03:36 Balancing religious beliefs and traditions, seeking guidance.
06:51 Enneagram examines human behavior through 9 patterns.
11:35 Enneagram deepened self-awareness and challenged spiritual persona.
18:41 Authenticity and diversity in behavior and communication.
34:15 Enneagram types have vices and virtues.
37:37 Act with a pure intention, strive toward it.
39:05 Balancing personal intentions and serving others and God.

References:
Myers-Briggs Type Indicator - https://www.themyersbriggs.com/MBTI
The Mussar Institute - https://mussarinstitute.org

 
Social Media links for Najiba: 
Muslim Enneagram podcast – https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/muslim-enneagram/id1594718032


Social Media links for Méli:
Talking with God Project – https://www.talkingwithgodproject.org
LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/melisolomon/
Facebook – https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100066435622271


Transcript: 


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Transcript

Najiba Akbar Transcript

The Enneagram and Islam 

Méli [00:00:05]:

Hello and welcome to Living Our Beliefs, a home for open conversations with fellow Christians, Jews, and Muslims. Through personal stories and reflection, we will explore how our religious traditions show up in daily life. I am your host, Meli Solomon. So glad you could join us. This podcast is part of my Talking with God Project. To learn more about that research and invite me to give a talk or workshop, go to my website, www.talkingwithgodproject.org. 

This is episode number 70 and my guest today is Najeeb Akbar. Najiba is the Muslim chaplain at Tufts University and a life coach. She holds a BA in Peace and Justice Studies from Wellesley College and a Master's in Social Work from Boston College. Her passion is to facilitate pathways for people to discover and develop their whole selves spiritually, psychologically, emotionally, intuitively, and more. She believes that we each have our own unique path to forge when it comes to our journey to know ourselves and ultimately to know God. In this episode, we explore the Enneagram system and the connection Najiba sees between the ancient system and Islam. Najiba currently resides in Wayland, Mass with her family. Links to her Muslim Enneagram podcast and some references mentioned in the episode are listed in the show notes. Hello, Najiba. Welcome to my Living Our Beliefs podcast. I'm really pleased to have you on today.

Najiba [00:01:57]:

Thank you. I'm happy to be here today.

Méli [00:01:59]:

I'd like to start with my usual first question. What is your religious and cultural identity?

Najiba [00:02:06]:

So I am a practicing Muslim. I come from a family that immigrated from India, and I practice Islam. I would say my practice of Islam is somewhere between Sunniism and Shi'ism. So I was raised in a Shia family, and I'm married into a Sunni family, and I consider myself just a Muslim.

Méli [00:02:31]:

You're the first guest I've had on who actually straddles those sects. Is that very common?

Najiba [00:02:38]:

I think being a minority within the Muslim community, you're forced to engage with the majority, so the Sunnis being the majority here in the US. So when I came to college, the community I was part of was a Sunni community that became my home, and I've gone through different phases of theological questioning around what my beliefs are in regards to religious authority and looking at history. And I ultimately decided to take the best from both worlds and really just look for wisdom from the tradition, and not get too caught up on sectarianism because from my view, you know, the sex didn't exist when the prophet Mohammed was alive, and so they're not essential to my identity or practice of Islam.

Méli [00:03:25]:

Do you find that it causes challenges in terms of your practice or being clear about the the beliefs and the the precepts of Islam?

Najiba [00:03:36]:

I think for me, the fundamental beliefs don't shift. It has to do with where I seek religious guidance from in terms of whether it's coming from the Shi'i tradition of following the imams and their interpretation of religion versus the Sunni authority, which lies in in scholars and scholarship. So it definitely causes moments of pause of, you know, am I going to look at it this way, or am I gonna look at it that way in terms of a particular ruling or a particular way of practicing? But I've just learned to navigate that and just try to find peace with it and realize that we're all practicing religion imperfectly in some way, and we're just, you know, trying to do our best to have a connection with God and try to follow the teachings of the the prophets. And so that continues to be my guidepost. But, yes, there's definitely moments where I'm thinking, you know, should I do it the way my parents did it, or should I do it the way that my current family or my current community does it? And and sometimes I go back and forth, so it's a little bit fluid for me.

Méli [00:04:38]:

It's also a wonderful commentary on how most, if not all of us, who practice a religion are actually living it. We're all imperfect and practicing a religion is is not about being perfect. Right? This is actually why I like that term that you're practicing it. Who's perfect? Was Mohammed? Maybe Mohammed was perfect?

Najiba [00:05:01]:

No. We actually don't believe he was perfect. 

Méli [00:05:05]:

Okay. 

Najiba [00:05:05]:

A lot of the stories are about coming to terms with difficulty and grace and turning back to God for strength. For me, it's a very human story, which I can relate to.

Méli [00:05:15]:

As a practicing Jew, I would say the same thing. We also don't see our prophets as being perfect, and, you know, there's all kinds of stories in Torah about people, prophets included, struggling and making mistakes and sorting things out. Some people say, don't you want a perfect model to be following? But like you, I find the the model being more human to be more helpful. It's something that that I can connect to. I I'm not going to be divine. So I like human models that actually give some hope of achieving that. Interesting that we have that similarity. And this sense of having guidance – guidance from scripture, guidance from Mohammed, guidance from God. Another thing you've spoken of is using the Enneagram as guidance for how to be in the world. Is that a reasonable statement?

Najiba [00:06:18]:

Yeah. Absolutely. It's definitely become somewhat of a guidepost or tool that I check-in with and use as a source of connection with myself.

Méli [00:06:28]:

I'd like to explore the Enneagram and then how you incorporate or how the Enneagram work connects with your practice as a Muslim. But let's start with just the Enneagram as a concept, as a structure of of learning. Could you explain just what it is for those in the audience who have never heard of it?

Najiba [00:06:51]:

Sure. It's basically a framework that allows us to examine human behavior from 9 different lenses or patterns. And so the idea is that each of us moves through life with a certain set of beliefs about ourselves or the world or kind of like a method for doing life. And each of the patterns described in the Enneagram represents one such method or a pattern or a way that we show up in the world that's based on certain maybe assumptions or story lines that we've integrated into our way. And it's really a way of examining what those story lines are, not so that we can identify with them even more, but rather to look at them with a bit of a critical eye and see how can we disentangle ourselves from some of these story lines that are really, in my view, kind of running things behind the scenes. For me, it's a framework that is really useful in self exploration. So it's it's showing you these 9 different patterns of personality, you could say, or some people use the terminology of, vices and virtues. What is our chief flaw? That's the way that some Enneagram teachers have used or our chief feature.

And that chief feature rules our personality and is sort of built around that key feature. And so finding your Enneagram style or type is a way to acknowledge that key feature and what role it may be playing in your life, and then the rest of it unfolds from there in terms of how you choose to engage with this information.

Méli [00:08:45]:

Okay. Thanks for that comprehensive explanation. I hear lots of words, so I'm curious about how these things really relate and how how you use it. Lens, patterns, storylines, personalities, vices, and virtues. Those are lots of different ways of thinking about something. But, again, just on the practical level, I understand the 9 types as reformer, helper, achiever, individualist, investigator, loyalist, enthusiast, challenger, and peacemaker. Interesting terms.

Najiba [00:09:24]:

Yeah. You know, those terms are mapped on to the symbol. So there's the ancient Enneagram symbol, and then there's the mapping onto it that has been done in terms of giving names to these numbers. The symbol is kind of ancient, and there's, I think, some debate about where exactly it originated from. But the idea of naming each point on the circle and giving it a title, that's something that happened later on. And so I often think about the number more than the name because there's many different names you could give to any of those points. For me, it's really about what's the feature associated with that point, and it can be described in a number of ways.

Méli [00:10:09]:

So you're identified primarily as as one number with other numbers or features being kind of in supporting roles, it sounds like. And you have identified or a number has been identified as your main quality, and that number actually means something to you.

Najiba [00:10:31]:

Exactly. I, for example, identify myself as having a type 9 personality, and the idea is that that personality is not really who I am, but it's the way I'm doing life. It's the tools that I, quote, unquote, chose or the armor that I'm decided to wear to get through life and get my business done and keep myself safe and protect myself from the things that I want to not experience and try to get the things that I want to experience. So I identify more with that number, and sometimes I think about it as being a peacemaker. But for me, the identification is more with being a 9. And what does that mean? It means being an anger type. It means being someone who is a little bit obsessed with harmony, but has difficulty processing, acknowledging, and expressing anger. And those are some of the things that have been important in my own analysis and work with myself and acknowledgment of, like, how I move in the world.

For me, the connection between that and my faith was I really felt like the Enneagram kind of cracked me open in a way that my faith life didn't give me access to up until that point. Because my faith life was a lot about me wanting to try to embody a certain, spiritual persona or, you know, be like the prophet, peace be upon him, or be a good person, whatever that meant to me. But there was something lacking in that pursuit, which was, do I really know myself? Do I really know why I do what I do? In Islam, intention is very important. So this idea that God judges us by our intention, not necessarily what we produce or what the outcome is of our actions. For me, the Enneagram was the first time I got to peek behind the curtain of, like, my own psyche and realize, oh, okay. Some of the things that I'm doing are not just because I wanna be a good person or because they're this pure intention, but sometimes I'm actually running away from something, or sometimes I'm actually trying to get something. And there's these other forces, subconscious forces driving my behavior that I wasn't aware of before. And it gave me a lot of insight, and I especially enjoyed learning about all the other types because it really blew my mind open to understanding the diversity of how we are as human beings, how we show up, how we make decisions. Whereas before, I think I assumed that my way was a better way to show up than maybe somebody else's way that I didn't like, but it gave me a dose of of humility to understand that we're all trying our best, but in very different ways.

Méli [00:13:21]:

So true. And great that you found a way to, as you say, have your faith broken open so that you saw more more nuance. But I also I'm also hearing that it grounded the values in a more practical day to day way. Is is that how it felt?

Najiba [00:13:40]:

Yeah. I think it gave me a better idea of the values, how I could work on living out some of these values in a more honest way rather than just trying to do it in a generic way. You know, I can give you examples of that, like, you know, realizing that I was an anger type. I had always read sayings of the prophet that said, do not get angry. Do not get angry. And I would read those sayings and say, okay. The prophet, peace be upon him, is telling us that it's important that we don't show up in an angry way or do certain things that would harm others. But it wasn't until I discovered that I was an anger type that I was actually getting angry, but I wasn't showing it in the way that I thought anger looked like.

But I realized that there's other ways that I was using anger that were unhealthy. So it was a way to unpack the deeper meaning of this advice of how to use anger, whereas before I thought of it as very black and white. Like, getting angry means yelling or, becoming violent or doing certain things that I distanced myself from. And I said, oh, that's not me. I don't do that. But then I had to look inside and say, well, what am I doing with my anger and realizing that there's passive aggressive ways that we can express anger? Just really looking at that helped me engage with that teaching in a different way as opposed to just saying, oh, yeah. I already checked that box. I don't have to worry about that. That's something other people have to worry about. So in a way, it helped me slow down and really engage with some of the teachings rather than just thinking about them as theoretical constructs.

Méli [00:15:24]:

Yeah. I think we are saying the same thing, but I appreciate more specificity. That's really helpful. Certainly, it's helpful to get out of the theoretical. I mean, the theoretical can be great. It can be helpful in helping us to connect with other people and helping us to connect with ideas. But to actually apply it, we do need to get to ground and understand how are we living something. Have you found that this transfer from theory to more nuanced practical things sometimes has kicked up a conflict, a problem where there's a disconnect.

Najiba [00:16:06]:

Say more about what you mean. A disconnect between ...

Méli [00:16:09]:

Between Islamic values and what you're reading in the Enneagram or how you're reflecting on it in yourself.

Najiba [00:16:18]:

Oh, that's interesting. No. I don't think I've found a conflict. It's more fleshing out the psychological reasons why we may do things or behave in a certain way rather than putting a moral judgment on everything. And I think that's been a distinction for me of, you know, yes, in Islam, there are certain values that we have, and we attach certain judgments to this is a good thing to do and this is not a good thing to do. But for me, the Enneagram was more about understanding why we do what we do. In some ways, I think it helped me move away from a judgmental place of this is a good way to be and this is a bad way to be and realize, no. Actually, there's many ways to show up that can have a good outcome, but it really does depend on why you're showing up that way or how you're using that power that you have. So it just helped me appreciate a little bit more of the gray areas or the nuances of human beings rather than getting fixated on, like, a good and bad framework.

Méli [00:17:33]:

I'm hearing a bit of dissonance in there, actually. You say it so calmly. Yeah. But I'm hearing some dissonance in that in terms of when we as followers of a religion practice that religion, you know, part of it is having a model that we're trying to emulate or at least learn from. And there are ways that are promoted. You say good and bad. This is often language that's used, but not necessarily. But there are values that are encouraged and others that that we are dissuaded from. Maybe that's language we can use. But what I'm hearing you say in terms of applying the Enneagram personality types is it's kind of moving away from that model towards understanding the gray, the the diversity, the complexity of how you and all of the rest of us are actually expressing ourselves in community.

Najiba [00:18:41]:

Yeah. And I and I think it's a way of acknowledging, for me at least, that there's a number of ways to show up and be authentic, be honest, be virtuous, but it's not always gonna look the same way. So somebody who's trying to do the right thing might show up in that situation and act very differently, say different things, have a different energy, and it doesn't mean that necessarily one way is the right way or the wrong way in that situation. But people are bringing a different energy. They're bringing a different lens. They're bringing a different style of communication, and that's something that I don't think I appreciated as much before studying the Enneagram. The values piece and, like, the morals piece, that still stands, I think, for me as an important framework in my life. So I think that kind of interacts with the Enneagram as a way of a source of guidance or a source of grounding, but I haven't found it to be in conflict with it.

Méli [00:19:52]:

So there are shared values from the Islamic tradition. And then for you, part of using the Enneagram types is understanding your particular way of showing those values or showing your showing your personal qualities.

Najiba [00:20:16]:

Yeah. I think the Enneagram is helping me see kind of where I fall in the landscape of, like, human beings. What are my tendencies? How do those interact with other people? But I'm still guided by the values of Islam, but now this is giving me more lenses to look at the virtues. So it's it's a little bit more easy to talk about in specific. So, for example, how do we look at anger from a spiritual lens? How do we look at it from a personality lens? And then how do we see what's really going on under the surface? Yes. Our faith teaches us to restrain anger and to control it and to not let it get out of hand. It also teaches us practices of forgiveness. It also teaches us practices of forbearance.

So for me, the Enneagram is kind of helping me understand how and when to use different teachings because, for example, the prophet Muhammad would give people different advice according to what he thought they needed to hear. So different people might come to him and get a slightly different answer or way of him responding to them. And for me, that shows a kind of wisdom of, you know, people are individuals. We're different. It's not a one size fits all. And I think sometimes we make religion into a one size fits all, and I find that to be very unfortunate because then people have to choose, like, am I that size or am I not? And if not, then I I need to walk away from it as opposed to really seeing it as a framework that can hold the diversity of human beings.

Méli [00:22:00]:

Again, I appreciate that comment that sometimes we make religion into a one size fits all, into a monolith. This is the right way to be a Catholic or to be a Muslim or to be a Jew. Yeah. And that is so false. I mean, again, even our prophets, they live the religion in all kinds of ways. So certainly, we would. These are all ancient traditions and lots has changed. So certainly, how we live our faith in 2024 is going to be different, and and we're different people. The world is different. I wanna ask one more thing in terms of the Enneagram as a structure and then we'll move on from that. One of the other systems that it brought up for me is the Myers Briggs. Have you done the Myers Briggs? Is that a a similar thing for you, or are these quite divergent?

Najiba [00:22:56]:

I do think they're very different. I have done Myers Briggs, and it also gave me a lot of insights into how I move in the world. But something about the Enneagram was different for me in that it struck more of a, I would say, emotional and spiritual chord of the the why of, like, what is that deep pain that I'm carrying as a human being? What is that hole that I'm trying to fill through my personality, through how I show up in the world, through all the things that I'm doing? It felt a lot more personal. There's a story behind each type and how it unfolds and how it relates to your family of origin and your parents, how you create this armor, how, you know, how you grow into it. So there's a whole story of childhood development and then, you know, how you're showing up in the world as an adult. For me, that was very poignant, and I had, like, a very strong emotional relationship with my type unfolding identity and my discovery of it, whereas Myers Briggs felt more like something that would be helpful in thinking about what kind of job I might wanna get or what skills I have. It had a different quality to it. I'll say that.

Méli [00:24:14]:

Yeah. I did the Myers Briggs quite a long time ago now, and it's true. I did go in for career direction. That was early in my professional life, but I I have found it to be helpful in terms of just how I relate to other people. So for me, it's not been so exclusively professional, but I hear what you're saying. And and there are lots of these sorts of systems. One other system that learning about the Enneagram for this conversation brought up is a Jewish system of really character development called Mussar. Have you ever heard of that?

Najiba [00:24:56]:

Oh, no. I haven't. I'd love to learn more about it.

Méli [00:24:59]:

Yeah. So it's it's spelled m u s s a r. It also is an ancient system. It's based on 13 core personality traits like humility and patience. It's a process of reflecting and talking with your study partner. Each person in the partnership identifies something they want to work on. Let's say patients is what you want to work on for this period. Usually a week, but it's between the 2 of you.

The idea is that each day you are paying attention to opportunities when you can practice your patience. Then you make notes in a journal at night, and then once a week you meet with your partner and you talk about, okay, well, you know, I had this instance at the grocery store and either I was able to be more patient or I really blew it and I just I just didn't have any patience. It's about raising your awareness and seeking opportunities to improve that quality, not towards a particular ideal, but towards a balance to move towards something in a way from something else. It sounds in a way kind of similar, this business about being more aware of how you are in the world as an individual and how you affect and are affected by people around you.

Najiba [00:26:29]:

Yeah. Absolutely. I think that is the main aspect of the Enneagram that drew me in was self-awareness and realizing that I didn't have that much self-awareness before my encounter with it. And so I think, you know, like you're saying, there's many ways that we can gain self-awareness, whether it's through tools like this, whether it's through, you know, feedback that we get from our environment or from people in our lives or our families or mentors. I often thought about how the Enneagram for me was filling a gap that I feel like existed because of a lack of kind of spiritual mentoring relationships, that, you know, looking into Islamic history seem to be more present, this idea of studying Islam with a teacher who observes you and who also gives you feedback about, you know, what you need to be working on or what kind of prayer practices would be good for you or what kind of daily practices would suit you. When we think about yoga, sometimes if if you're high energy, you need to be doing the low energy yoga. If you're low energy, you need to be doing the high energy. But left to our own devices, we might keep choosing the things that we like and not choosing the things that are going to challenge us or make us grow.

So I often thought about why this was so significant to me, and I think it's because I was feeling this lack of other opportunities for growth like this where I was getting some sort of feedback. And the Enneagram was the first time that I felt like I was really getting feedback even though it was from a book about how I move in the world and how I understand myself. And that was a big shift for me.

Méli [00:28:22]:

Yeah. Interesting that it sounds like you sorted this out with a book, not in going through some kind of a test like you do for the Myers Briggs or working with a counselor. Is that true?

Najiba [00:28:35]:

I started with a test that a friend gave me, and then I thought found it interesting, but I didn't find it so compelling. Started reading more books, and So I started reading more books, and I was like, oh, I really need to continue on this path. And then I I found a coach who did Enneagram coaching, and then I did some programs and group work. So it kind of opened up this whole other community of people who wanted to engage with this tool and get more self-awareness and kind of improve their relationships, improve their own sense of self. So that was what was powerful about it was it wasn't just a static thing, but it was something you could use individually and in community. And I felt very understood when I was working with my coach because she knew the type that I identified with. She could take that into consideration when working with me, and that to me felt like a supportive element to our relationship.

Méli [00:29:35]:

It is clearly a journey. It's a long process of self-reflection and self-understanding, learning. Do you know very many Muslims who are also using this, who incorporate this into their Islamic practice or their self-identity as as Muslim?

Najiba [00:29:52]:

Yeah. It's a good question. When I first learned about it, I found out that there was someone else who was teaching about it in the mosque, and I reached out to her. And then she became my podcast cohost. So the 2 of us connected because we were both Muslims who were using the Enneagram and trying to tie it in with our faith practice. So that was an exciting moment to find someone else who was curious and, you know, learning and wanting to share this with others. I imagine the community is growing. There's people listening to our podcast who sometimes reach out to us who are looking for other tools because I think sometimes our religious life can feel a little bit stagnant.

You keep hearing the same messages again and again, but you feel like, okay. I've heard that message before, but what's next for me? Like, how do I really take my faith or my self-development to the next level? Like, what does that look like? So I think it offers a way to do that. I'm also in touch with a organization in Egypt. It's called Enneagram Egypt, and they teach the Enneagram and tie it into the Islamic disciplines and teach to a Muslim audience. So there's definitely a world out there that is using this across faith traditions, and I'm continuing to find ways to connect with others.

Méli [00:31:11]:

But it was not originally an Islamic thing. Right? It came out of South America.

Najiba [00:31:18]:

That's the part that still feels fuzzy. There are some who trace it back to what they call Sufi circles of learning. And, you know, Sufism is under the umbrella of Islam, and so it's about spiritual development and knowing God. And so part of the work of Enneagram Egypt is kind of linking some of the the type patterns and the qualities of God that we want to embody or we wanna be in touch with. So there are some teachings that show a strong correlation. But, yes, absolutely. In your typical learning of Islam, there's there's no mention of anything like the Enneagram or anything like that, but there's a lot of mention of the vices and virtues. So the vices and virtues of the Enneagram are congruent with the teachings of Islam about these are patterns that we can fall into, and we we need to kind of stay away from them or try to wrestle with them. So I think the Enneagram provides a little bit more specificity on, like, what it looks like to wrestle with these qualities or these natures that we might have.

Méli [00:32:20]:

Vices and virtues comes back around. Do you find that there is more stress in the Islamic community on moving towards the virtues or moving away from the vices?

Najiba [00:32:36]:

I would say they go hand in hand. So there's the idea of staying away from the Haram, for example, which is the forbidden. So this idea that Islam gives you some guardrails. It gives you some guidance. It gives you some areas that are kind of green light areas, areas that are red light areas, and then there's a lot of things in the middle. And you have to kind of decide, like, is this is this bringing me closer to who I wanna be, to my faith, to my relationship with God? Is this taking me in another direction? So I think there is a lot of overlap there.

Méli [00:33:10]:

Vices and virtues is not. I can't say that's something that that I think a lot about. Yeah. I'm gonna have to think about that more. It's just the languaging feels foreign. I mean, certainly there are positive and negative commandments for us. You know, things we should try to do and things that we shouldn't do. Maybe it's just that we use different different words for it.

Najiba [00:33:36]:

Yeah. Yeah. It's not really something that I would identify with the Muslim tradition either. So, for example, there's an idea that there's qualities that God loves, and there's other qualities that he does not like. So for example, God doesn't like the arrogant boasters, but God loves those who walk on the earth with humility. So those are examples of these comparisons that are made in the Quran. Like, God loves those who are generous. I'm not quoting specific verses right now, but just more like these embodied things that we read in the Quran or read in the hadith or the sayings of the prophet.

So, for example, we're encouraged to give charity, but there's a verse in the Quran that says, don't be like those who give charity and follow it up with reminders of their generosity. You know, it's telling you, like like, this this is a good thing to do, and this other thing is not a good thing to do. And so try not to do that. So that's what I think about in terms of vices and virtues, but the that language is definitely Enneagram language. Each type has a vice, and then there's a virtue that it's reaching for that's kind of part of its development. And it's often almost like an opposite quality. For example, type 2, the vice is pride and the virtue is humility. So the journey of the 2 is coming to terms with their own pride that's hidden behind this idea of being being the helper or being the one who helps others and moving towards an inner humility that acknowledges that God is the true disposer of affairs, and it's not up to you to help and save everyone. But you also need others' help, and you also need it's it's a two way street. So it's that process of taking that, quote, unquote, vice that is a little bit invisible and transforming it into a more developed version of that quality or that self. That's how I see it.

Méli [00:35:33]:

Again, I'm seeing parallels to Mussar in this idea of there being a pair of qualities, and and it's about moving towards something and away from something, not an absolute point that you're aiming towards. Yeah. Interesting. Lots more to explore there. Time is running on. I'd like to turn our attention to one more thing. You mentioned the idea of intention. I've heard from lots of Muslims I've spoken with about God or Allah knowing what is best for us. And I'm curious about how, with all of this self-knowledge you've developed, how you see the relationship between that belief, if if you share it, and your awareness of what your own intention is? And as you said, is it pure?

Najiba [00:36:30]:

Sure. Yes. I I definitely resonate with the concept or belief that God knows better than us. So there's this idea that we're living our lives, we're planning things, we're making goals and moving forward. Yet God is the best of planners, so he has a plan for us that we're also not fully aware of. And our plans are interacting with his plans for us, And so there's this idea of, you know, doing our best yet trusting that the outcome is something that is not fully in our control and that God is leading us through life in a way that is for our benefit ultimately, even when it feels difficult or we face challenges, that there's a benefit that's coming from that and because God is benevolent and he wants what's good for us. And remind me again what the connection was that you wanted to make between that concept and intention. For me, the intention is why do we do what we do, and Islam asks us to look at that.

So, for example, 2 people could be giving charity. One person is giving charity with an intention to help the person and and also perhaps as a way to earn god's pleasure. So those could be 2 possible intentions. Another person could be giving charity because they want to be known as somebody who gives charity. And so, Islamically, we're we're asked to delve a little bit deeper into what our intention is and try to purify it. I think with the understanding that none of us is completely pure, I don't know if it's possible to ever say that we have a pure intention, but it's like we're asking God to purify it and praying for that saying, you know, I I I want to act with a pure intention that's for your sake or for the sake of others rather than acting from a place of wanting something for ourselves. It's a difficult line to draw. So I think it's, for me, it's still a concept of, like, how do I work towards a place where I feel I'm acting with a pure intention versus ever thinking that I've achieved it.

Méli [00:38:52]:

Are you making a distinction between the intention why you would do something and and the process of doing it, kind of goal versus process?

Najiba [00:39:05]:

Yeah. I suppose that distinction is there as well in the sense of there's why you do something versus what the outcome is. But I think more of what I'm saying is I don't know if there exists something that's a utterly pure intention, but I feel my faith is asking me to try to purify it by by going through some sort of process of asking ourselves, like like, why am I really doing this? What's the big picture? Am I here to serve myself? Am I here to serve others? Am I here to serve God? How do you balance all those things? Because, of course, we also are doing things for ourselves. Like, in some ways, our faith is also a way for us to live a good life and to maybe be at peace with ourselves, to be at peace with, our understanding of God. So I don't think they can be fully separated, but I think for me, it's like it's like a challenge of, like, how can I use this idea of intention to elevate my actions? And that's what we're taught that, you know, our our actions are judged according to what we intended, and it's also a way of acknowledging that it's not all about what we do and accomplish, but it's, like, what's in our heart. You know? What were we trying to do? And God sees that.

Méli [00:40:24]:

Okay. Well, thank you so much for coming on my Living Our Beliefs podcast, Najiba. I've really appreciated this conversation, and I wish you all the best moving forward.

Najiba [00:40:37]:

Thank you so much. It was my pleasure being on the show today.

Méli [00:40:42]:

Thank you so much for listening. This Living Our Beliefs podcast is part of my Talking with God Project. In that research, I explore how Jews, Christians and Muslims live their faith, including their sense of God, prayer practice and how faith is present in daily life. If you'd like to keep up to date about the project, subscribe to my twice monthly newsletter at www.talkingwithgodproject.org. A link is in the show notes. Thanks so much for tuning in. Until next time. Bye bye.