Queering Contemplation and Finding a Home in Christianity – Cassidy Hall

Episode 79. 
In this conversation, Cassidy and I talk about her evolving, contemplative spiritual expression and identity as a queer Christian. We also touch on her view of scripture and incorporating various theologies and poetry as she finds comfort in paradoxes. Thanks go to the Elevate Podcasting Summit recently hosted by BYU Radio, where we met and recorded this conversation.

 
Highlights:
·       Cassidy Hall's Spiritual Journey and queer Christian spirituality.

·       Exploration of Faith: Embracing spiritual paradox; seeking expansive belonging.

·       Influence of mystics and desert elders

·       Contemplative spirituality: Silence holds paradox, presence, absence.

·       Engagement with Queerness in Christianity

·       Cassidy's evolving faith practice

·       Acceptance of uncertainty and communal prayer river.

References:
Audrey Lorde – Uses of the Erotic (essay)

Bio:
Rev. Cassidy Hall (she/her), MA, MDiv, MTS, is an author, award-winning filmmaker, podcaster, ordained in the United Church of Christ, and author of Queering Contemplation: Finding Queerness in the Roots and Future of Contemplative Spirituality. She is the cohost of the Encountering Silence podcast and the creator of the Contemplating Now and Queering Contemplation podcasts. Her films include In Pursuit of Silence and Day of a Stranger. Cassidy is widely published and currently resides in Indianapolis, where she is studying for her doctorate degree. You can learn more about her at cassidyhall.com

Social Media links for Cassidy:
Website – www.cassidyhall.com
Book – Queering Contemplation
Instagram – instagram.com/casshall

Social Media links for Méli:
Website – Talking with God Project
LinkedIn – Meli Solomon
Facebook – Meli Solomon


Transcript:  https://www.buzzsprout.com/admin/1851013/episodes/16023262-queering-contemplation-and-finding-a-home-in-christianity-cassidy-hall


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Transcript

Cassidy Hall transcript 
Queering Contemplation and Finding a Home in Christianity

Meli  [00:00:04]:

Hello and welcome to Living Our Beliefs, a home for open conversations with fellow Christians, Jews and Muslims. Through personal stories and reflection, we explore how our religious traditions show up in daily life. I am your host, Meli Solomon. So glad you could join us. This podcast is part of my Talking with God Project. To read about that research, listen to past talks, or invite me to give a talk at your organization, go to my website, www.talkingwithgodproject.org. If you'd like to learn new words from our 3 religions and keep up to date on the project and podcast, sign up for the twice monthly newsletter. Link is in the show notes.

Meli  [00:00:59]:

Today's episode is number 79 and my guest is Cassidy Hall. In this conversation, Cassidy and I talk about her evolving, contemplative spiritual expression and identity as a queer Christian. We also touch on her view of scripture and incorporating various theologies and poetry as she finds comfort in paradoxes. Thanks go to the Elevate Podcasting Summit recently hosted by BYU Radio, where we met and recorded this conversation. Cassidy lives in Indianapolis, Indiana, and links to her social media and recently published book, Queering Contemplation: Finding Queerness in the Roots and Future of Contemplative Spirituality, are listed in the show notes along with other helpful resources. Good afternoon, Cassidy. Welcome to my Living Our Believes podcast. I'm so pleased to have this opportunity as we are here in Utah at the BYU Elevate Summit.

Meli  [00:02:10]:

What a what a joy it's been to meet you, and I'm so pleased to have this opportunity to have this conversation.

Cassidy Hall [00:02:17]:

Thank you so much, Meli. It's great to be here with you. And, it's also wonderful to be recording together in person, to be able to see each other's mannerisms and to have a generative conversation.

Meli  [00:02:28]:

Absolutely. A huge focus of my Living Our Beliefs podcast and my, you know, broader talking with God project research is what one could call lived religion or how faith is present in daily life and also how the past and the present are connected. Mhmm. So in this case, I'm interested in understanding your background, understanding the changes that have occurred for you spiritually, religiously in terms of your practice from your childhood to now as an adult? And also, if it feels appropriate to you, how you in 2024 connect to scripture, which is 1000 of years old. Okay? So that's kind of a groundwork. So I understand you are a Christian and otherwise, could you just tell me how do you identify religiously and culturally or socially?

Cassidy Hall [00:03:35]:

Yeah. So I identify as a queer, cisgender white woman. I'm ordained in the UCC, the United Church of Christ. I also am in a Zen Buddhist practice, Zen Buddhist meditation. I do that about once a week and really, really enjoy the contemplative silence of that space. And then, finally, I would say I'm kind of engaging with the idea of being an agnostic Christian, specifically related to the idea of accepting I cannot know and accepting I do not know. Yet, I've chosen Christianity, yet I grew up in Christianity. This is a tradition in which I have, flourished and grown and deepened my roots.

Cassidy Hall [00:04:17]:

So I like to say that, ironically, you know, one way to express that the reason I kind of stick with Christianity, because Christianity has caused so much harm in the world, so much violence, so much pain. It's actually a Buddhist saying, and this Buddhist saying says better to dig 1 well 60 feet deep than 10 wells 6 feet deep. So, in other words, this is the tradition I've chosen to go deep in the one that I grew up in, the one that was given to me by my ancestors, and the one in which that I I continue in.

Meli  [00:04:48]:

Thank you. You have already said so much and so much to dig into. So so we're starting the well here. We're starting the well digging right now. First of all, just a structural point is you were raised within Christianity, and what denomination was that?

Cassidy Hall [00:05:04]:

Yeah. So this might be a little bit more of a long winded answer, but so I grew up going to Methodist church. But when I got to middle school I'm the youngest of 4. And when I got to middle school, my parents said, okay. Church is your choice now. If you want to go, we'll give you rides. We'll give your friends rides. We'll take you.

Cassidy Hall [00:05:24]:

It doesn't matter, but we want you to choose what you want to do. The beauty of that is it gave me the sense of ownership over my own faith and spirituality at a very young age. What's not so great about that is at that time, I then kind of fell into this fundamentalist evangelical space. And by the nature of being a young person and searching for belonging, these spaces were were filled with trying to make kids feel belonging. Right? So, unfortunately, that happened, which led to a stint in my life that I eventually emerged from. Naturally, I would say that space, in particular, was the most toxic for my being a queer woman and for the things that were said about that. However, I was so lucky to grow up in a family that was always open and affirming. And so I was always able to separate the negative things, I would say, that people were saying versus what God or the divine was saying.

Cassidy Hall [00:06:23]:

And and that's been another change for me as I I tend to use the word divine because it it feels like a more expansive way for me to talk about God. And so in my book, Queering Contemplation, I've chosen to to not use the word God unless I'm quoting someone or or something like that.

Meli  [00:06:39]:

Interesting that your parents gave you that option at middle school. That strikes me as a very young age. So what what kind of age?

Cassidy Hall [00:06:50]:

It's probably like is that like 12 or 12, 13, 14. 13. Yeah. Yeah. Somewhere in there.

Meli  [00:06:57]:

That's actually interesting because in the Jewish tradition, 12, 13, those are the ages that boys get a bar mitzvah and girls get a bat mitzvah. That's right? Son and daughter of so it's actually not so wild. Yeah. But in in that case, in our case, you are now seen as an adult within the Jewish community and you take on the rights and the obligations of an adult

Cassidy Hall [00:07:23]:

Mhmm.

Meli  [00:07:23]:

In that religious community.

Cassidy Hall [00:07:25]:

Mhmm.

Meli  [00:07:26]:

So interesting. Okay. So then I wanna ask about the stent as you say in the evangelical. Yeah. Not at all surprised to hear that that was toxic for you. Yeah. Did you already at that point identify as queer or something in that realm?

Cassidy Hall [00:07:44]:

So, no. I would say at first, I would say in terms of my sexuality, I was a pretty late bloomer. So I didn't really recognize my attraction to women until probably late high school, maybe. So when I was in that evangelical stent of my life, You know, basically, I was I was taught to hate myself and suppress those things. Right? So I learned quickly that that wasn't something that fit where I was, and yet I never fit anywhere I am. But I mean that in a really positive and beautiful way. I feel comfortable not fitting. I feel comfortable being kind of creative and sometimes goofy.

Cassidy Hall [00:08:29]:

And the word queer originally used to mean. In 15th century Scots, the etymological roots of the word queer mean odd, strange, transverse, oblique. And so I love embracing the wholeness of the word for my own life. I would say the parallel of of my faith journey also mimics the parallel of my, for lack of better expression, coming out journey. Eventually, I then went to the Episcopal church and found, a great home in the Episcopal church. And then I went to seminary, and I thought I was gonna pursue being a Episcopal priest. Well, that was another box I just didn't fit in. I didn't fit in wearing a particular thing. And as much as I love the rhythm of ritual in in things like the Episcopal church, I knew that that there was something there that was, like, kind of a box that I didn't quite belong in.

Cassidy Hall [00:09:23]:

And that's when I found the the UCC, the United Church of Christ. So fun joke about the UCC is people jokingly say that UCC stands for Unitarians Considering Christ, which I think is hilarious.

Meli  [00:09:39]:

That is fantastic. Yeah.

Cassidy Hall [00:09:40]:

Yeah. Yeah. But it kinda goes to show just how expansive the UCC has felt for me and has been for me and the way it's become a home. And and I can talk about it in these kinds of ways, and it still remains my home.

Meli  [00:09:53]:

So, Cassidy, I'm hearing a process of considering. I I love that you just used that word of considering your sexual identity, your religious or spiritual home, maybe your spiritual identity, already a sense of, oh, here's a box. I don't fit in the box. But I'm also hearing that you were kinda looking for a place.

Cassidy Hall [00:10:26]:

Right? Or Isn't that funny? It's like Walt Whitman. I'm large. I contain multitudes. Yeah. You know what I always like to say is that my spiritual life thrives the most and lives the most in paradox because it's a space where there's this tension. There's a space where where we meet the unknown that we can't make sense of or we can't fathom. I know some people have talked about how a lot of Jesus' parables in, the scripture are kind of these mind boggling things. The last shall be first.

Cassidy Hall [00:10:57]:

The first shall be last. He liked to kind of give us these things that kinda make our brain shake up a little bit and kinda put us to the space of wonder and awe because we can't fathom it. We can't understand it. So I've learned to embrace the paradox of my spiritual journey. And, yes, to your point, yes, I was looking for a box related to a maybe a church home or a a belonging in a in a faith setting, and I would add a porous one, something that can expand and shrink. And, you know, the times I need to be held, it comes closer to me. The times I need to breathe and evolve my life, it's porous and expansive. So related, like, spiritual practices are related to, I think, a lot about monks and nuns in monasteries and that the way that they've chosen this particular life in this particular way.

Cassidy Hall [00:11:50]:

I had a conversation with a monk once, a Catholic monk once, who talked about how, by the nature of him choosing to stay in this space and commit to this space and this way of being, he was able to reach a depth he couldn't otherwise reach. He was able to to get in touch with something of himself and the divine that he couldn't otherwise reach. And I sense that in commitments and alter all aspects of our lives. Right? Our partners or our spiritual practices or our spiritual spaces that we go to. And I think that that's something that really resonates with me. That really resonates with you. Like, getting to a depth that we couldn't otherwise reach.

Meli  [00:12:29]:

So, again, I'm hearing several things that I I want to try to tuck into a bit more. So interesting you used the word porous. I was not expecting that word, but I do hear this dynamic of flexibility where there's an ability to hold you close and then and then stretch to allow for an enlargement of well, I'm not quite sure what, of identity, of practice, of belief Mhmm. Of questioning. Right? We haven't gotten into the the issue of questioning it, which I I think we need to now turn to. Yeah. But I think it's also important to to kind of put a pin in this issue of developing and then holding with with comfort and pride, I hear, a queer identity within a heteronormative Christianity. And given your poking at moving deeper into Christian leadership and then shifting churches a couple of times Yeah.

Meli  [00:13:37]:

I really find myself wondering about your relationship to scripture

Cassidy Hall [00:13:42]:

Mhmm.

Meli  [00:13:42]:

And the language. I mean, there is just some awful language in scripture. I know I feel that as a Jew and yet I honor it as as important history. This is our scripture. It it's not just a book. It's really important and it's central. And so I wonder that for you because there's a dance of the role each one of us plays, any one of us who's on the faith path, with the scripture of our tradition and the community in which we practice and in which we read that scripture. Yeah.

Meli  [00:14:22]:

Could you talk to that a bit?

Cassidy Hall [00:14:24]:

Yeah. So one place I wanna begin is, related to a recent documentary called 1946. In this documentary, it explores, basically, the way the word homosexual got into the biblical text, and it didn't get into the biblical text until 1946, which was the year of my father's birth. So the reason this is so important is that we have to recognize we are looking at translation upon translation upon translation. I'm speaking specifically about Christians in this instance. You know, we have countless translations. But, ultimately, what happened is there was this group of men, presumably straight white men, who basically got together in this room as they were kind of creating this new translation, and this meeting led to the word homosexual being in the Bible. This film, 1946, which I encourage people to watch, basically, that was kind of the the beginning of I would say one of the beginnings of any LGBTQ folks kind of being demonized in Christianity.

Cassidy Hall [00:15:28]:

And it's not to say that we didn't live in a heteronormative world before that or a patriarchal world before that because we sure as heck did. It's just really sad to think about so many of us have come to assume that that was in the original text, and it wasn't. So I I began there. And then, I think, secondly, I just I really look at scripture as story, and I really look at scripture as story and storytelling. Is there wisdom in there? Yes. Are there stories that I can glean, maybe discernment from? Yes. Is there poetry in scripture? Yes. And I love poetry.

Cassidy Hall [00:16:12]:

Speaking of holding paradoxes, poetry does that beautifully. I think in the grand scheme of things you know, the other day, I was talking to someone. I was kinda like, I hold scripture in high regard, yet I don't hold it I don't know how I'd wear this. Like, I don't hold it above my own personal experiences of the divine or my own personal encounters with the divine. So I think I yield more to my own life experience. Like, process theology kind of kind of talks about this idea of how we're we're always gleaning more information, gleaning more wisdom, and and to move with the process of life in order to keep expanding our understanding of the divine. And I think that's something that I really identify with. And then the thing that's helped me most in really understanding scripture and reading scripture is looking at womanist theology and the ways, womanist interpretation of scripture, in particular, has radically changed the way I viewed scripture, and then, of course, queer readings of scripture.

Cassidy Hall [00:17:15]:

It's so often it it's so hard for us to come close to something until we see ourselves in it. And the necessity to relate to scripture in that way has just been, I think, really huge for me.

Meli  [00:17:28]:

Yeah. Absolutely. And I that is part of why I wanted to ask you because I think that is for women, for queer, for the LGBTQIA crowd in general, we are outside the central arena

Cassidy Hall [00:17:49]:

Yeah.

Meli  [00:17:50]:

Of scripture. Mhmm. Certainly of authorship. Yeah. Okay. So there were a few women, but, you know, like mostly nameless and of the leadership.

Cassidy Hall [00:18:02]:

Mhmm. Mhmm.

Meli  [00:18:03]:

Right? You know, so it's really interesting to hear you say that scripture isn't actually at the center. It's more it's this process theology, womanist theology, queer readings makes so much sense.

Cassidy Hall [00:18:19]:

Yeah.

Meli  [00:18:20]:

Even already in this fairly brief conversation, I'm hearing multiple threads of experience, of sources of inspiration. Complexity is great, but fact is complexity is complex. So it makes life kinda complicated. Yeah. And can be difficult. And I did hear you mention paradox earlier. Yeah. You also, at the top of the conversation, commented about the toxic environment of the evangelical Church, which,

Cassidy Hall [00:18:55]:

Mhmm. 

Meli  [00:18:56]:

again, I get without having been in that community. So that's a lot of push and pull. Here we are, 2024. I will not out you in

Cassidy Hall [00:19:05]:

terms of your age, but

Meli  [00:19:06]:

you're clearly an adult. I'm 40. Of your age, but you're clearly an adult. I'm 40. Okay. There we go. You're in the prime of middle age. And what I wonder is about your current practice.

Meli  [00:19:20]:

How do you weave or maybe these strands are jockeying for position or maybe they take turns? Like, how does that work practically speaking and kind of emotionally and spiritually speaking? How how is this working for you?

Cassidy Hall [00:19:37]:

Yeah. I I love that question because it's a perfect lead into what my spirituality looks like on a daily basis in everyday life, and that's contemplative spirituality. Contemplative spirituality is kind of the ultimate way for me that I found of a place of holding paradox. Right? Like, I love silent prayer, and I sometimes go to the indie Zen Center in my town, and I do a silent sit with folks there. Because in the silence, we're holding everything and we're holding nothing. Everything is there and nothing is there. And there's something about the silence that is also reminiscent of God's absence and also God's presence. I remember talking to an Episcopal priest once, kind of, about this.

Cassidy Hall [00:20:25]:

And in scripture, when Jesus is dying, he says, my God, my God, why have you forsaken me? So this idea of God being present in God's absence and God being absent in God's presence. Right? If if if we view the trinity. So if we're thinking about Jesus as also God, so this idea of this juxtaposition in scripture, what seemed to be a necessary part of faith. However, my belief system's a little wonky on that. I can you believe it? Can you believe it?

Meli  [00:20:59]:

I'm shocked. I'm simply shocked.

Cassidy Hall [00:21:02]:

You know, this whole idea of the virgin birth or Jesus raising from the dead, I don't need to believe in those things. I don't even know if they happen, but it doesn't impact me. It doesn't impact what I believe. It doesn't change anything for me. Easter is actually my favorite holiday because it was, like, this ultimate magic trick. But if that magic trick didn't happen, it doesn't change anything for me. And I still believe that

Meli  [00:21:27]:

God can be a God of magic. And by that, maybe I mean miracles. Right? So where were we going with that? How you've brought together these many strands into your current practice?

Cassidy Hall [00:21:40]:

Yeah. Yeah. So contemplative spirituality has been a place where I've been able to hold everything at once and accept the tension and accept that that's all there at once and that it doesn't need to make sense together. And there's times when I do need it to make sense because I do need to feel the comfort of that. Right? And that's that's why early in life, I went to fundamentalist evangelical Christianity because it's all about certitude. It's all about knowing. But I don't live there anymore because I understand I can't know. I can't be certain.

Cassidy Hall [00:22:16]:

And not just related to the divine, but really all things. So contemplative spirituality has brought me to a place where I hold life open handed, and I hold my spirituality open handed. And yet, I came to contemplative spirituality through reading folks like Thomas Merton, Richard Rohr, a lot of primarily cisgender straight white men who were often celibate. And so, I got to this place of okay. This this thread of contemplative spirituality really resonates me, and it's in, you know, all the traditions in different ways. But the way I came to it came from voices who were so unlike my own, who I couldn't I couldn't really relate to. And so that ultimately led me to starting to have these conversations, knowing that there's other queer, Christians out there who are also kind of navigating their contemplative spirituality without without a sense of, direction, maybe. I wouldn't say direction.

Cassidy Hall [00:23:20]:

Without a sense of having conversation partners in the journey.

Meli  [00:23:25]:

Yeah. This issue, this question, really, of community, I think, is so important to to get into because it seems what I'm hearing, and please correct me if I've misunderstood, Cassidy, that all of of what you've described thus far is really okay. So you've been part of churches, but it's been a personal journey Yeah. Which even as I say this, I have to acknowledge aloud that that is the nature of the beast. Yeah. Right? And in point of fact, just as a small commentary about my own experience, it's one of the things that I love about being part of a synagogue community. Mhmm. That when I go to services, I am having a personal experience.

Meli  [00:24:21]:

Mhmm. We read quietly. We also chant together. So there's alone, there's together. Each person in that sanctuary is having their own experience. There may be space spacing out. The the monkey mind is going or they may be really tuned in. They may be being inspired by the rabbi's dvar or whatever.

Meli  [00:24:46]:

Yeah. But that mixture, that tension, I would say, and the dynamic of you're alone with it. It's your own personal private process.

Cassidy Hall [00:24:58]:

Mhmm.

Meli  [00:24:59]:

But, also, it it's a group activity.

Cassidy Hall [00:25:03]:

Mhmm.

Meli  [00:25:04]:

Is that for you as well?

Cassidy Hall [00:25:07]:

Yeah. That is both/and? Yeah. Definitely. I experienced that. So so in church spaces in the Christian tradition, churches are are known as being, like, open and affirming. Right? And there's we can get into that because what does it really mean to be open and affirming, and, you know, do people just say that so they can tokenize and say they have a few queer folks in their congregation? But all all that to say, I I belong to a church that became open and affirming in 1994 when I was 11 years old, and and that just in Indiana.

Meli  [00:25:43]:

Wow.

Cassidy Hall [00:25:43]:

So so that, to me, meant that there were people there that could could see the future, could see could see the present, you know, the present people in in their in their space. And I I feel a deep sense of belonging in a space like that. And I do feel in the United Church of Christ, we also have different, you know, notations. So there's there's open and affirming, and then there's wise, which is welcoming, inclusive, supportive, and engaged for mental health. And there's also, like, green church, like, all these different kinds of things. Right? So we're also a wise church. So we do, for instance, when we pass the peace, folks are also invited to sit quietly on their own because they might not want to socially interact. They might not feel comfortable doing that.

Cassidy Hall [00:26:30]:

And in that way, the more expansive my church has become on inclusivity, now we're really focused on universal design related to being, accessible for folks with disabilities. The more expansive we get in this way, the more I feel like I'm a part of this deep widening community that deeply cares and that deeply looks out for each other. That's been a really big gift. And while my church doesn't do, you know, silent prayer sits per se, and I and I do that in other spaces, it is a space of of community, of communal care, of looking out for each other, and if, you know, sometimes hard conversations too.

Meli  [00:27:10]:

At present. Yeah. You're doing knee sits. You're exploring contemplative Christianity. Mhmm. You've also used this term that you're an agnostic Christian.

Cassidy Hall [00:27:23]:

Mhmm.

Meli  [00:27:24]:

What does that mean and how does that sit with you?

Cassidy Hall [00:27:29]:

Yeah. I think I I'm I'm kinda trying that on right now. And that's that's related to an acceptance of not knowing. It it kinda goes back to contemplative spirituality. It's an acceptance of of having my hands open and not quite knowing while also knowing there's this thread in the spiritual practice practices I'm engaging in or my church life that resonates somewhere deeply, but I can't say exactly what it is. I really like to think of prayer as a river, and I like to think of about prayer as a river in all traditions. Oftentimes, you know, I'll go to prayer when I'm distraught or when I'm in pain or when I'm lonely. Of course, there's times where it happens in those opposite emotions or feelings, but I really like thinking about prayer as this river that is kind of this ultimate sense of community and this idea that when I jump into the river of prayer, no matter how lonely or alone I feel, there's someone or many people all over the world in that river at the same time.

Cassidy Hall [00:28:43]:

And whether they come from different traditions or my own tradition, I think that is is such a gift. That's another thread that, again, I would say resonates but doesn't give me knowing.

Meli  [00:28:57]:

Resonates but doesn't give you knowing.

Cassidy Hall [00:29:00]:

Yeah. No certitude, no knowing.

Meli  [00:29:03]:

And this is a comfortable space for you.

Cassidy Hall [00:29:06]:

It is. Yeah.

Meli  [00:29:10]:

Again, I I want to bring in an element from the Jewish tradition that that you've just brought to mind. One of the things for us is an encouragement to question and debate and to read the text, discuss. We long tradition is what we call to have a havruta partner. So it is 2 people who are equal partners in study Okay. Which I love. It's not a student teacher.

Cassidy Hall [00:29:43]:

Yeah. Yeah.

Meli  [00:29:44]:

Nothing's coming down from on high. You are studying some text. It could be anything. It could be a cookbook to read together and then discuss it and sort out together what this text means and what we think about it and how do we how do we take it in. Mhmm. I hear from you, Cassidy, the moving into quiet spaces, I'm guessing kind of listening for the voice of God, not quite sure what that looks like for you, and being mindful of the womanist theology and the queer theology and all of this, I imagine, is kind of tumbling around as as you have your sit. Yeah. What I haven't heard yet is so much about the questioning, especially questioning of scripture.

Meli  [00:30:39]:

I mean, you had a reaction to the toxic environment of the evangelical community. Mhmm. Mhmm. But what about what about the scripture?

Cassidy Hall [00:30:51]:

When we talked about it a little bit ago, I think this goes back a little bit to just the idea that I don't hold it in in the highest regard as much as I hold experience, my experience. Yeah. But but that but that being said, I think it really is important to engage with scripture and challenge it and question it and push up against it and wrestle with it. I've enjoyed that, and that is a part of my faith experience, but I would say it's not a primary part of my faith experience.

Meli  [00:31:20]:

Okay. What about other writing? Perhaps Audre Lorde. Yeah. Or Poetry. Or Maya Angelou. Yeah.

Cassidy Hall [00:31:30]:

You know? Yeah. Yeah. So first I

Meli  [00:31:32]:

won't ask you to spontaneously recite a poem. But but if you have one, perhaps you could send it and I could put it in the show notes. If there's something that that really speaks to you, perhaps a Walt Whitman poem. I mean, who who is it?

Cassidy Hall [00:31:48]:

Yeah. I I love that you mentioned Audre Lorde, and I'm thinking about her essay called uses of the erotic, which is a lot about being embodied creatures and and recognizing our embodiment. So as a queer woman, I think a lot about embodiment, and I think a lot about my queer body that I bring into these faith spaces and what that means and what that looks like. And I think by the nature of who we are, no matter who we are, whether we're queer or not, our bodies bring an invitation to other people no matter where we go. So what is that invitation? And I think for some queer folks, and I can only speak for myself, at least for me, that invitation is for people to be invited to look at their true self, who's their true self, or maybe examine and think about their full expanse of their life. But related to to your question, yeah, Audre Lorde, in terms of poetry, Lucille Clifton, Patrick Othuma, Natalie Diaz. Natalie Diaz has some really, really beautiful spiritual poetry that also kind of uses this embodied erotic language, which mimics some of the great mystics of the past, like Saint John of the Cross in the Christian tradition, who wrote kind of these erotic love poems to God, where, ultimately, it reads like he's being intimate with Jesus and where other saints have written about being intimate with Mary, Jesus. So some of the poetry from some of either the the saints or the the mystics of old, I really like.

Cassidy Hall [00:33:22]:

And I always love to say that the mystics were the original weirdos of the faith, and I'll stand by that. And, also, the desert elders, which in 3rd 4th century Christianity were these men and women who chose to subvert the Roman Empire and move to the desert to live these communal lives where they were connected and cared for each other and live lives of solitude together. I looked at those 2 groups of people also. So both, like, the writings, the mystics, but also the this what's called the sayings of the desert elders. And it's short sayings, almost like Zen Koans. So, traditionally, Christians would 3rd or 4th century pilgrims would go to the desert to speak to one of these desert elders, and they would say, Abba, Amma, give me a word, a word of life. And and what I love about this is, I think, in many ways, we are all pilgrims doing that with each other. Even in this conversation, I feel like I'm getting a word of life from you, and I feel like this conversation even feeds my spirituality, my faith, my relationship with the divine.

Meli  [00:34:34]:

It's a journey. Mhmm. Yeah. For both of us. I really treasure these opportunities to go on a little spiritual and thought journey with someone. And it's astonishing, I have to say, every time this happens to delve so deeply into these very personal and sometimes difficult areas with someone I really hardly know.

Cassidy Hall [00:35:01]:

Yeah.

Meli  [00:35:01]:

So so it's a beautiful thing and it's a blessing and I thank you. There's clearly much more we could talk about, but our time has come to a close. I do want to, though, in closing, Cassidy, offer you an opportunity to tell the audience how people can learn more about what you do and find your book.

Cassidy Hall [00:35:24]:

Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. My book title, which came out in May, is called Queering Contemplation: Finding Queerness in the Roots and Future of Contemplative Spirituality, and you can find that anywhere, you get books. And then my website is Cassidy Hall dotcom. I'm on Instagram at Cass Hall. And then finally, my podcast is by the same title of my book, Queering Contemplation.

Meli  [00:35:49]:

Wonderful. And I will, make sure to have all of those listed also in the show notes. Great. And if anyone in the audience has more questions or would like to comment or have questions for me about any of this, I can be reached either through my website, www.talkingwithgodproject.org, or you can write me directly at info@talkingwithgodproject.org. Thank you so much, Cassidy. I really appreciate you coming on my Living Our Beliefs podcast. This has been such a blessing.

Cassidy Hall [00:36:25]:

Thank you so much. It's been such an honor to talk with you and to to dive into these questions together. I really appreciate it.

Meli  [00:36:34]:

Thank you for listening. This podcast is an outgrowth of my Talking with God Project. If you'd like to keep learning together and keep up to date on the project, sign up for the newsletter at www.talkingwithgodproject.org. A link is in the show note. Thanks so much for tuning in. Till next time. Bye bye.