#121 - 5 Things My Sister Wants You to Know About Perimenopause

Welcome to this week's episode of the Midlife Feast, our season four finale! 🎉 For this special episode, I invited my sister, Friedel to join me. We didn't grow up together, (those details are in the episode) but by luck, we both ended up living in the same city in the Netherlands and I couldn’t be more grateful to be sharing this season of life with her!  

We dive into our shared experiences and differences, especially around menopause. While I went through early menopause, my sister, at 46, is just starting perimenopause. Her journey this past year reflects what many go through, wondering, "Is this perimenopause, or am I going crazy?"

Join us as we chat about the five key things she's learned and wished she had known. We laughed a lot during this episode and think you will too. 

See you in September 2024 for Season 5 of the podcast! 

And if you’d like to hang out while the podcast is on hiatus, come find me in The Midlife Feast Community! Use the code SUMMER to save 20% off your first month, or take advantage of the 25% discount on annual memberships.

Sign up HERE!

Links Mentioned: 

#62: How to "Do Less" & "Be More" with Wendy Mccallum

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Looking for more about midlife, menopause nutrition, and intuitive eating? Click here to grab one of my free resources and learn what I've got "on the menu" including my 1:1 and group programs. https://www.menopausenutritionist.ca/links

Transcript

Jenn Salib Huber: 0:33

Hi and welcome to the Midlife Feast, the podcast for women who are hungry for more in this season of life. I'm your host, dr Jen Salib-Huber. I'm an intuitive eating dietitian and naturopathic doctor and I help women manage menopause without dieting and food rules. Come to my table, listen and learn from me trusted guest experts in women's health and interviews with women just like you. Each episode brings to the table juicy conversations designed to help you feast on midlife. And if you're looking for more information about menopause, nutrition and intuitive eating, check out the Midlife Feast Community, my monthly membership that combines my no-nonsense approach that you all love to nutrition with community, so that you can learn from me and others who can relate to the cheers and challenges of midlife.

Jenn Salib Huber: 1:24

Hey, everyone, welcome to this week's episode of the Midlife Feast, which is also the season four finale, and I always like to try and do something a little bit fun or a little bit different. Obviously, throughout the season, some amazing guests, amazing conversations, but I wanted to invite my sister, and my sister is 15 months younger than I am. We did not grow up together. We found each other about six years ago when we discovered through a DNA test or she knew, I didn't know that I was donor conceived, so conceived with a sperm donor in the 70s. So we have a few other half siblings, but as luck would have it, and it really was a spot of luck, we moved to the same city in the Netherlands that she lives in and has lived in for you know, probably close to 15 years now.

Jenn Salib Huber: 2:13

But, all that to say, we share a lot of things in common, but one of the ways that we've actually kind of differed is that she did not go through early menopause like I did, and at 46, she's in the early stages of early perimenopause and her experience in the last year is really reflective of, I think, what a lot of people go through when they're trying to figure out is this perimenopause or am I going crazy? So I invited her on to talk about some of the things that she's learned and some of the things that she wished she had known. We talk a little bit about, kind of how this whole podcast idea came about, but I think that all five things are worth listening to and are very relatable and hopefully it gives you maybe a little bit of hope that you aren't going crazy and hopefully you'll laugh as much as we did, because we definitely laughed a lot on this episode. So thanks, friedel, for joining me, thanks everyone for joining me this season, me, thanks everyone for joining me this season, and stay tuned to the end. There's a little special message too.

Jenn Salib Huber: 3:22

Hi, friedel, welcome to the Midlife Feast. Well, thank you. So I feel like we're going to be a little giggly at the start of this just because we've never actually like recorded something. So you're my sister, as I've just introduced, and we, you know, obviously we talk a lot all the time about all the things, and I wanted to share a little bit about the story of how this podcast came to be. So just to kind of orient everyone. I'm postmenopausal, you're early perimenopause, right, because you're 15 months younger than I am, something like that, about a year give or take a year.

Jenn Salib Huber: 4:06

Something like that yeah, you're 46, right, turning 46. I'm turning 46. In a few weeks, right by the time this airs, you will be 46. Okay so, and I'm, and I turned 47 in April and about a year ago, I guess, is when you started to first kind of have the question is this perimenopause or am I going crazy? It felt like we were having that conversation more often and then a few months ago you said in a moment of frustration I can't believe how much of this I didn't know, and you're my freaking sister, and so and I said, wait a minute, that's a great idea for a podcast, all the things I didn't know, despite my sister doing this for a job. So yeah, so I thought I'm excited to kind of share this because I feel like the things that you have struggled to really know, understand, find resources, information are very typical of struggles that many people in this age and phase are kind of going through.

Friedel: 5:01

That makes me feel a lot better to hear that, even though you've said that to me many times. But I always have this feeling of ah every time someone says that, because I do think we go through so much and sometimes it's so easy to think that we're the only ones, when actually there are so many other people out there having it's never exactly the same experience, but always very similar experiences or some things that are common between them.

Jenn Salib Huber: 5:23

Yeah. So can you tell us a little bit about how things all started for you, like what were some of your early symptoms, like what were some of the things that made you really wonder, is this perimenopause?

Friedel: 5:35

Yeah. So I think, when looking back on it, I was probably in early perimenopause for certainly a good year before I really realized that I was in perimenopause, and probably the first symptom that I can really say yes, that happened to me would be like just these moments of mental rage. Something would happen and it would annoy me and it was the kind of situation that probably would, in any age and stage of life, would have annoyed me to some degree, but I just I lost it. You know, I was so angry, it was, and I, shortly after these things would happen, I would look back on them and I'd be like my brain just short, short circuited there. What happened, you know, and I didn't really understand why I reacted so extremely, but I did, thankfully, not all the time, but that definitely happened a few times and I started gaining weight and I didn't understand why, because I didn't feel like I was eating any differently.

Friedel: 6:28

I have what I would describe as a pretty active lifestyle. I don't have a car, I've got two kids run them everywhere by bicycle bike back and forth to work. So I looked at my lifestyle and went why is this happening? My, my jeans not fit anymore? This, this really stinks, um. So those would have been the first two things, and then probably more recently, but in the last year, um, I've not been sleeping very well, so I'll be up at one in the morning.

Friedel: 6:57

I mean, jen, how many text messages have I sent you at two in the morning about various interesting things that occurred to me in the middle of the night? And I have been awake in the night before in other times of my life. But I could always figure out why. It was because I was worried about something, I was having a lot of stress about work, or there was something going on with the family, maybe someone was ill, and that had my brain turning in the middle of the night. But what was different this time is that I genuinely was not under any pressure, couldn't connect it to anything, just awake somewhere between 1 and 4 am. So those were the big things. I was really, really tired. I noticed um, we can talk about that later in more detail I'm not sure how much of that was down to perimenopause or just low iron, which could be related to both.

Friedel: 7:47

Right, could be a bit of both. You're the expert, I'll let you. Let you give the context on that one, but yeah, I was really tired and I started having trouble. The context on that one but yeah, I was really tired and I started having trouble concentrating. And this is the thing that I think has actually bothered me, maybe the most of all.

Friedel: 8:06

My symptoms is just, you know, I've always felt, up until about the age of 44, that I was on the ball. You know, I could multitask. I didn't, you know, if I had a deadline at work, I did not forget it. If I was in a meeting, I could make a valuable contribution. And then I came into this phase where not every day, but regularly enough that it was, you know, becoming worrying. I was like my brain just shut off. I just I couldn't process the comments that were coming my way in a meeting, or I would forget to submit something that I was supposed to submit by a certain day, and that was really, really worrying. So I think those are the main things that I've struggled with so far.

Jenn Salib Huber: 8:45

And I feel like it was the brain fog. For you, that was like the proverbial straw, like okay, I've got to look into this, I've got to see what's going on, because I think for a lot of people I know, for me, same thing, like always. Like you know, queen multitasker never forget a thing, can do all the things rightly or wrongly. That was also the piece that, for me, felt the most disconcerting, like the mood swings, the sleep changes, like yeah, yeah, yeah, those were kind of expected, but you don't really get brain fog until you're in it and then you're like, oh, I just feel like I'm thinking through like molasses, like it's just so hard.

Friedel: 9:22

Well, and I think a lot of the other symptoms. You can to some degree hide them or keep them to yourself. You know, if I'm not sleeping well and I'm getting five hours of sleep instead of eight a night, I know I'm tired. But the whole world doesn't have to know that I'm tired. You know, I try and hide it as much as I can and you go through your day and but the brain fog I mean, you know, at work.

Friedel: 9:42

I remember this, um, this moment not that long ago actually about six months ago where I was having a one-to-one with my boss and I had to show her something on my computer and all I had to do was hit control, alt, delete to unlock my computer screen. And I could not remember how to do that. And that's something that I've put into my computer multiple times a day for I don't know how many years. And I had to look at her and say I don't know how to unlock my computer, can you help me? And she looked at me. She said Are you okay? And those moments when you're in a work situation and you want to appear competent are just mortifying.

Jenn Salib Huber: 10:16

Yeah, yeah, they totally are, and I hear that from so many people. I mean, obviously I work for myself, largely by myself, you know, working with other people virtually, but you know I don't have a boss or I don't really have colleagues, unless you count the cats, and you know. But I hear from a lot of people who have to, you know, really interface with other people to do their job, that they often feel like they're all of a sudden incompetent and that starts to then get in the way of thinking clearly, because you're now worried about performing the job that you've done, maybe for years, in a situation that should be completely normal, you know, habitual, well known, and that in and of itself becomes a distraction.

Friedel: 10:59

So it's hard, yeah, the brain, and I think the brain fog is the worst and I think, coming back to you, know how you have, how we originally started this conversation. I didn't expect any of this to happen to me, kind of tripped up from the words.

Jenn Salib Huber: 11:11

So that's number one. Okay, so we have five things, well, five things that you've come up with that you feel like, okay, these were things that I wish I had known, but I didn't know. So the first one, that it was going to happen to you, right, that surprised you.

Friedel: 11:29

I know, which is crazy.

Friedel: 11:30

You know all these things, the lack of sleep, the feeling tired, the brain fog, the emotions all of that happened to me and it still wasn't until relatively recently that I really realized the light bulb went on my brain.

Friedel: 11:42

Oh, this is probably perimenopause, which sounds so silly, especially since you're my sister, and it's not that I don't know what you do for a living, but I think because I've been incredibly fortunate with my cycles, you know I have. I know a lot of women struggle with their cycles in many different ways. I have never had that. So I just I really kind of assumed and I've always been a high performer, so the two things combined, you know, being one of these people who's always been able to manage all the things and do really well at home, at work, and never, ever having I barely even have a cramp in a normal cycle, I mean it's just so easy. It's almost probably some people who are listening to this are probably throwing things at the podcast right now because my cycles have been so annoyingly easy and so I just genuinely thought I'll sail through this, this won't be much, no big deal.

Jenn Salib Huber: 12:34

And then, when it really started happening, I was like oh okay, maybe, maybe this isn't going to be so easy for me, but it really took me a while to realize that that was, that was a thing and that was happening and the funny thing is that, for you know, as, as I've explained in the in the intro, you know we're half sisters and we are alike in so, so many ways, but the one way that we're very different is, you know, reprodu reproductively. So I, you know, clearly take more from my mom's side with. You know, early menopause and periods were never fun or easy for me, so it wasn't a total surprise.

Jenn Salib Huber: 13:05

Well, I didn't say they were fun. Well, they weren't. You know, I've always had issues with atriosis and that kind of stuff. For me it was kind of it was just more of the same shit show that, you know, when I started to have a lot of symptoms.

Jenn Salib Huber: 13:17

But I think that if you have not had anything, I think it would be reasonable to assume that you're going to just, you know, sail through it. And and I think it does surprise a lot of people, because we will all go through menopause Like that is the inevitability and you can't really prepare for it in the way that maybe you would with like a pregnancy, for example, like you can't take vitamins or you can't. You know, there's only so much you can do to prepare, and that's a question that people ask all the time. Well, what can I do to get ready? And I say honestly, education and information is really the only thing, that, the only tools that you can have to prepare, so that you know what to expect, that you're not surprised and that maybe you can start to connect the dots as early as possible.

Friedel: 14:04

Using the pregnancy test as an analogy. Also, with a pregnancy you can do a test at the beginning and at least you know you're pregnant. You know it may not be clear what's going to come up for the rest of the pregnancy, but at least you know you're pregnant. But with menopause? Yeah, there's no test for perimenopause that I know of. Maybe you know of some, but as far as I'm aware you can't walk into the pharmacy and just say show me where I am.

Jenn Salib Huber: 14:27

You can buy over-the-counter tests that will measure FSH follicle-stimulating hormone in your urine, but they're not predictive. They really only confirm if you are fully menopausal, because the levels you know need to be above a certain level usually 25, depending on what country you're living in, you know, in order to kind of diagnose menopause, as it were. It doesn't really tell you much in perimenopause because that number is going to fluctuate a lot and if you're still having regular periods, chances are your FSH level is going to be well below 25 anyway. So you can, but you shouldn't, because they're a waste of money. It's kind of the take home, got it.

Friedel: 15:05

I think, the other. The one last thing that I would say about not realizing that I was in perimenopause is that my mother passed away when I was 18. And I don't have a big family. So I think also, if you know your maternal history, that's also a clue or a resource that you can use to kind of figure out what's going on. But I didn't have that either. So it was really just like being in a black hole and trying to figure it out and after a while you get so many pieces of the puzzle that the light goes on and then you can actually move forward and figure out okay, what am I going to do with that?

Jenn Salib Huber: 15:43

Yeah, okay, so that's number one. So the second one, that you have to advocate for yourself, because you've done a lot of advocating for yourself, and that came as a surprise to you too and that came as a surprise to you too.

Friedel: 15:59

Well, yeah, I mean, this is something that happens to half of the population and I really just don't know why we don't talk about it more. I mean, I do think we're talking about it a lot more. You certainly see it on social media more. Some companies have programs, you know. You see that the advocacy is happening a lot more than it did five or 10 or 15 years ago, which is wonderful, but even so, there's really not a lot. So I mean, for example, I was told a couple of times by medical professionals when I went to talk to them about some of the symptoms that I was having, and that I thought I was in perimenopause. A few times I got the line well, if you're not having hot flashes, you can't be in perimenopause. Oh my God, that's my pet peeve. I hate that so much. It's mine now too, but it's amazing how many people still believe it.

Jenn Salib Huber: 16:53

You know you can't have HRT if you're not having hot flashes.

Friedel: 16:56

No, your tightness can't possibly be down to perimenopause because you're not having hot flashes.

Jenn Salib Huber: 16:59

I could go on and on, but I heard that so many times or that you're not in perimenopause because you're still having regular periods. That is the other most common one, that like, oh well, if you're still having periods and you're not having hot flashes, then it's not perimenopause, and that is just completely false. In fact, I would say most people are at their most symptomatic in my experience anyway long before their period ends, right Like all of these symptoms that you're having, like because your cycles are still regular.

Friedel: 17:29

Right as an example, they're still pretty. They've just started to vary by a couple days. So I used to be missed 28 days. I mean you could set a clock by it. I was super, super regular, unless I was very stressed or pregnant. That was the only two exceptions, but in general, over my whole menstruating life I have been extremely regular and now I would say it varies by one to two days either side of 28. But that's only in the last six months.

Jenn Salib Huber: 17:56

And, interestingly, if we're strictly speaking diagnostic criteria, you would still not qualify as being an early perimenopause. You would be classified as being in the late reproductive stage. And this is where you know, I think sometimes, when we rely too much on the criteria to put people in boxes, we're actually missing out on supporting people through the experience of living in both boxes, of being, you know, clearly towards the end of your reproductive life, as it were, and having symptoms of early perimenopause. But if we say, oh well, if your cycles aren't changing by more than seven days, you're not in perimenopause, that could mean another year or two of suffering, essentially, oh my gosh. Thankfully, though, through your advocacy, you were able to access some support, right.

Friedel: 18:52

Yeah, so I did. I did a lot of research. I asked you a few questions, but I tried not to ask you too many because I felt kind of guilty as using you as my on-call medical advisor. So I did a lot of reading myself, listened to a lot of other podcasts, discovered that there was a menopause consultant in my area and that's someone. She happens to be a nurse and then she's done some additional training in menopause, and so I went to see her and of all the medical professionals I saw, she was actually really, really good, she specialized in it. She was a bit older, so she clearly been through it herself, and I would recommend that.

Friedel: 19:31

I think if people are, you know, looking for ways to get some advice, to get a little more context about what's going on, go and find someone who's really specialized in this, because my one of my big takeaways from this is that, um, I don't want to say you can't trust your GP, because I think that they are doing the best that they can. Um, they clearly have a lot on their plates and they're expected to be experts in a lot of things and clearly some are more aware of the issues around menopause and perimenopause than others. But I would say that in general, you just don't know what you're going to get with your GP.

Jenn Salib Huber: 20:03

And so I learned that if I'm going to my GP, I'm going to come with a stack of medical papers related to whatever question I'm asking, just in case they aren't up on the latest research, Whereas with the menopause consultant I at least felt like here's someone who really pays attention to this 24-7 and who I can have a good conversation with and know that the information is much more likely to be backed by research and reliable and I think that that's a really good point too, that your GP has a lot on their plate and when it comes to continuing education they have a lot of buckets to fill to stay on top of primary care, kind of dealing with all the ages and stages and ranges of people that come through their practice, ranges of people that come through their practice, and so unless they have a personal interest in the menopause piece, they're probably not getting more than just like the basics.

Jenn Salib Huber: 20:57

And so somebody who specializes in menopause for people in North America looking for someone who's certified through the menopause society, that kind of just ensures that every couple of years they're maintaining the certification that keeps them up to date. So that's always a really good place to start. It's not as widely used. There are some people in Europe, I don't know. I don't think there are any in the Netherlands actually but that doesn't mean that there aren't specialists, people who have, you know, additional training. It just means that it's harder to locate them if you don't have an in with someone or don't have a name to go by.

Jenn Salib Huber: 21:29

But, yeah, finding somebody who has that expertise is really helpful.

Friedel: 21:34

When I went to see this menopause consultant and I then went to the doctor with, you know, the recommendations that she had given me, the GP said to me we're so happy that you went to see her because she really knows her stuff and we can see that you've examined all the options. So this is what you want. Great, let's get you sorted. You know, it was then actually a really quick conversation with my GP because they could see that I had done my research. It was clear what I wanted and we just moved forward from there. So it was really really helpful in a number of number of ways.

Jenn Salib Huber: 22:07

And I mean so you started hormone therapy. I hope that's okay for me to share. And I mean so you started hormone therapy.

Friedel: 22:12

I hope that's okay for me to share. Yeah, so I've often said that I am menopausing loudly, so I'm happy to share all the things.

Jenn Salib Huber: 22:20

I figured you would be so, but one of the interesting things again kind of one of the differences between us is that I desperately wanted and tried hormone therapy, but the progesterone just made me feel like a big, giant pile of steaming shit, Whereas, like you, want to sing it from the rooftops because it has been a game changer for your sleep, especially right.

Friedel: 22:39

Progesterone's my new BFF Like I love it. You're only supposed to take it for half of your cycle, so it's 14 days on, 14 days off, and I'm. Last night I was looking at my calendar like when can I take this again? I'm genuinely excited to take the progesterone because it does help you to sleep. It really does. Um, yeah, I've. I've just started HRT, so I'm just starting my second month. Um, so I my first impressions are positive. Um, I do find it aside from the sleep part, with the progesterone I can definitely tell if I take the progesterone. I feel sleepy within 20, 30 minutes and I sleep like I sleep so well at night. I just sleep a solid eight hours, which is something I have not been doing for the last year and a half two years. I realized when I started taking progesterone how sleep deprived I probably have been for the last couple of years and I would say 3am texts for a long time.

Jenn Salib Huber: 23:41

Right, I went like if it's December it's funny, but not for like. Christmas. Okay, let's talk about Christmas dinner and scent and all these things. And I'm like why were you thinking about these at three in the morning?

Friedel: 23:53

To be fair, I probably didn't help myself by picking up my phone, but I also tried for a period listening to various podcasts, and those didn't help me to fall asleep either. So I'm going with perimenopause as the guilty culprit there. But yeah, back to the HRT. I mean overall, from five or six weeks on it, I would say my experience so far has been pretty positive. I haven't really noticed many side effects at all, so I'm hopeful. But even that feels like I feel like there's just so much pressure on women to figure it out and so many conflicting opinions.

Friedel: 24:26

You know, as soon as you start taking HRT you run into people like me who are evangelists for it, but then you also run into people who tell you it's going to give you cancer or come up with all these other negative effects, and it's really hard to find your own way in this minefield of information and advice, solicited or unsolicited, that you get.

Jenn Salib Huber: 24:49

Yes, I would agree with that that you get. Yes, I would agree with that. Okay, so next one is fun because I think it really speaks to the power of you know it's. It really is the little things, so that little changes can make a big difference. What were some of the little changes that you made that had a big payoff?

Friedel: 25:07

Well, now I'm going to sound like a commercial or an advertisement for your podcast. Well, now I'm going to sound like a commercial or an advertisement for your podcast. Well, I think the funniest one is taking iron. And the reason that's funny is that for I don't know how many months I was saying I feel really tired, and you would Many months make a year. Anyway, let's dwell on that. I had some brain fog going on. You've got to cut me some slack. For a very long time I was feeling tired and you kept telling me take your iron. And you kept on sending me links to your podcast about iron, which I did not listen to. Shame on me, just I.

Friedel: 25:45

You know it seems so silly looking back on it. But the other thing about this stage of life is it's just so busy for so many of us. You know we're working jobs, we're often going up the career ladder, so we've got fairly demanding jobs, we've got kids, we may have aging parents. I mean, the demands are crazy. And then my iron was low on top of it and I was tired. And it's such a simple thing to go down to the health food store or the supermarket and buy yourself some supplements, but I just couldn't get my brain around it. I don't know it. Just it felt like climbing Mount Everest, even though it clearly wasn't, but it felt like that. So it took me ages to get around to taking my iron, but when I finally did, I mean, I felt a pretty, pretty significant difference within a relatively short amount of time, and I added some other vitamins in.

Jenn Salib Huber: 26:35

And just to be clear, we knew that your iron was low. Like this wasn't just like oh, you're tired, take iron. It was, oh, have you had your iron checked? Oh well, the last time, the last two times, I think, you went to give blood, they sent you back the letter saying your iron's too low. So we knew that your iron was low.

Friedel: 26:54

Don't get me too hard to tell them okay.

Jenn Salib Huber: 26:56

Well, I'm just, you know, I'm not your sister.

Friedel: 27:01

Yeah, no, I definitely knew it was low. But even then, okay, you can argue that you're my sister and I should trust you, and I do. But at the same time, coming back to my other point, the GP was also saying to me things like oh, your iron's kind of on the low side, but you're not yet anemic, so your fatigue is not coming from that. So even then I was getting conflicting bits of information and that on top of just the chaos of life. It took me a while to get around to it. But point of this is that when I did take it, um that it it really has helped me.

Friedel: 27:33

Other things I I've started doing sports, which is something that I never thought that I would enjoy. As a kid. I wrote myself fake sick notes to get out of the gym class. That's how much I hated doing sports Never got caught, by the way, yeah, so I would write fake sick notes for my mom to get out of gym class.

Friedel: 27:52

I have never been a sport. I've always been active, but not a sporty person in the sense that I have never wanted to go to the gym. I always thought that that would be one of the worst things ever, but I decided that I really had to make some time for myself, and so I started going to the gym a few times a week, and that has also been wonderful. It's just become this place where I go to work out any stress and to feel good about myself and just enjoy movement, and that has been so amazing.

Friedel: 28:18

And what else have I done? I've I've tweaked my diet. I've always enjoyed a glass of wine, but I have to say I've gotten to the point in my life where that is just not serving me anymore, so I have almost entirely cut alcohol out of my life. Very occasionally if I'm having a meal with friends and someone offers me a glass of wine, I might still have one, but it's now like six times a year tops, and honestly it's a self-selective way out of our life, right, I mean because it's just not enjoyable anymore.

Jenn Salib Huber: 28:49

You know, like I used to love not one, but like two generous glasses of wine. That was like my Friday night sweet spot kind of thing. And now it's like if I do that I'm not going to sleep and the entire next day is ruined, you know, and it's just, it's like it's just not worth it anymore, Sadly, I guess. Maybe it's a good thing, but you know, there is like an element of like oh, I wish I was 25. Again, tolerate that that way. But but yeah, I think wine is a big one that lots of people can relate to, for sure.

Friedel: 29:21

Wine and alcohol in general. I mean, what's really helped with that as well is just that there are so many great alternatives now. You know, 15 years ago we hardly had any, and now there's tons of alcohol-free beers which are really, really good you can get. I discovered alcohol-free gin and tonic the other day. It's not bad, you know, and I don't have to deal with any of the symptoms or side effects, like not sleeping, that come from having the alcohol. So yeah, just these little tweaks, just making little tiny changes yeah.

Jenn Salib Huber: 29:49

Just noticing what's going on and having that curiosity. I love that. Okay, so the next one might be my well. No, I think the last one is my favorite, but okay. Number four saying yes to yourself is really important. This speaks so much.

Friedel: 30:04

Oh, that's a huge one, and I mean people.

Friedel: 30:12

I wouldn't often dare to speak for both of us, but I'm going to speak for both of us right now when I say that I know that we are both people pleasers by nature, and so, you know, I've pretty much spent most of my adult life, um, trying in one way or another to make other people happy, um, and that always hasn't always been a negative experience, you know, I mean, I've, I've. I don't want to paint like the poor me picture here, but I definitely noticed that, you know, when I would have a choice about whether to do something or not, if it would help someone else, then I would always say yes, even if I would be tired at the end of the day, for example. But I really hit this point. I think you describe it as the point when your estrogen goes so low that you just can't pick up anyone's socks around the house anymore. I literally had that moment. I mean, I literally looked at a pair of socks on the living room floor and I thought I really I don't care anymore, I cannot do this for anyone else anymore, and that became a kind of turning point for me where I really just started to think okay, why am I doing this? Can someone else do this?

Friedel: 31:17

One of the best lines that I learned in order to start prioritizing myself so saying yes to myself and saying no to other people is it's one sentence. Do I have to do this now? Okay, and what you do is you say that sentence three times and every time you emphasize another word. So you say do I have to do this now or can someone else do it? Do I have to do this now or could I do something else? Is there an alternative? Often you can think up a simpler way or a different way. And do I have to do this now or can it wait for tomorrow or next week or next month?

Friedel: 31:57

And that has really become my mantra, and by using that to like prioritize and decide what I'm going to do or not, do I've just opened up more time for myself. So I'm, I'm going to the gym. Um, I don't want to paint myself as the perfect person. I mean, there's definitely, you know, a good amount of chaos in my life, as you will know. But yeah, just finding time to go to the gym, to go for a walk, spend time with friends, maybe to follow like a short course or go out for a day and that feels so good After years of being like a parent and a wife, which I still am. So good after years of being like a parent and a wife which I still am, but just not in the hundred percent for everyone else except for me way that I probably was up until about age 40.

Jenn Salib Huber: 32:44

Yeah, and I think it's. It is really hard when you still have younger kids. Um, so our kids, your kids, are eight and 11, no, almost nine and 12. And, and mine are a little older, 14 and 17. And but it's hard when they're still young, independent and like, of course, you love them and you mother them. But sometimes that like desire to just like make everything easy for them which is what I felt when they were younger it really changes and you're kind of like I don't want to do that anymore, Like I don't want to, and when you can actually honor that in a way that doesn't like require you to leave your family or leave your job or whatever it is, and find a way to honor yourself in it, everyone benefits from that, Like everyone benefits from that.

Friedel: 33:36

Yeah, I mean you know they're all still alive, right? That used to be a sorry.

Jenn Salib Huber: 33:43

I said stay tuned for you said they're all still alive, and I said stay tuned for next year's podcast.

Friedel: 33:50

They'll still be alive next year, I promise you.

Friedel: 33:52

No one of our jokes used to be, you know, when the kids were really young and one of us would go away whether it was for a work trip or a weekend with friends or whatever the other partner would walk in the door and say how are things?

Friedel: 34:04

And either I or my husband would respond well, everyone's still alive, you know, and that was our base mark of success. So yeah, as I've, and I still do things for the kids. But yeah, as I've, and I still do things for the kids. You know, it's not like I've completely ripped up the contract and walked away or anything, not anything close to it, but just by just handing over 10% of the things that you used to by default do, just because you know how to do them and it was quicker for you to do them than for someone else to do them, and sometimes because you want it to be nice or want it to be kind, and just letting them sort those things out for themselves, or just saying it's actually okay If this thing doesn't get done. It just gives you that breathing space and you, you need it so much in this stage of life, I think.

Jenn Salib Huber: 34:48

And for anybody who wants like more of that conversation, there's a great episode that we'll link in the show notes, with my friend Wendy talking about how to do more by how to get more, be more, enjoy life more by saying less or doing less, and it's all about like, how can you say no, um, in a way that feels okay, because we do need to say no no a lot more often I think we do Okay. Last one, my absolute favorite, that your body is awesome. I love that. This is something that surprised you.

Friedel: 35:21

Yeah, well, let's see if I can do justice to this thought in the way that I want to. I said earlier that I never really struggled with my periods, but I have always struggled with my body image. Not to the extent that I've ever had an eating disorder or gone through some of the really hard struggles that a lot of people have had with their bodies, but still I can remember my mom putting me in front of the mirror when I was about 16 and saying to me Frida, look, you're beautiful. And I remember, and it was so sweet of her to do that. But I remember thinking to myself no, I'm not. You know, I never saw myself as good looking or enough. I always felt that other people looked better than me, was never really happy with my body At various points of my life, did not want to be in pictures, even as recently as last week, I have to say.

Friedel: 36:13

Occasionally there's still a picture come up where I but I've gotten a lot more comfortable with it and I think although I'm still working on it, because this kind of work in my experience so far is never really done because we do get so many pushes from all corners of life to look a certain way and be a certain way. I realized that I have come into a stage of life where I actually care a lot less about what other people think and that I realized that I'm just fine the way I am. And I'm trying to put my finger on why exactly that is, and I don't know. I'm not sure what it is, but it's just something. Maybe it's come through this whole process of realizing that I'm going through the stage of life taking more time for myself, realizing that I really matter I don't know, I can't put my finger on what it is but just realizing that I'm actually quite okay the way I am and that it doesn't really matter what other people think.

Friedel: 37:10

Yeah, what more can I say about that? And the swimsuit Do we need to tell the swimsuit story? Yeah, what more can I say about that? And the swimsuit?

Jenn Salib Huber: 37:16

Do we need to tell the swimsuit? Story, because that actually is a key part of this, yeah, and it's a key part of my story too. So, yes, please, let's talk about the swimsuit story.

Friedel: 37:26

Yeah, and this is not actually a perimenopause or menopause story, except that we were both probably roughly in that stage of life when it happened.

Jenn Salib Huber: 37:33

But I definitely was.

Friedel: 37:39

I probably was, but unwittingly no. So well, you've already mentioned that. You know we didn't grow up together, even though we're half sisters, and that we only got to know each other about five or six years ago and not too long after we met. I do this crazy thing I like to have adventures in life, and so I do this crazy thing where, every once, to have adventures in life, and so I do this crazy thing where, every once in a while, I do a dip in the North Sea in February to raise money for a charity that's run by a good friend of mine, and you happened to be here at the time when I was doing this dip, and so I said let's come along, and I don't know why did you say yes? I'm not sure why you said yes, but you did.

Jenn Salib Huber: 38:13

No yeah.

Friedel: 38:14

I don't know why I did either, but we did.

Jenn Salib Huber: 38:16

Right.

Friedel: 38:17

Anyway, this all resulted on us being on a beach in the Hague in February in our swimsuits and, as I said earlier, I had never really liked my body, never really thought that I was good looking or didn't didn't like the way it looked. And all of a sudden, there we were on this beach and we were both in our swimsuits and we looked at each other and we realized that we have exactly the same bodies.

Jenn Salib Huber: 38:45

yeah, it's so similar we realized it in the moment, or was it the picture? I remember seeing the picture and it was striking that maybe it was like.

Friedel: 38:54

I don't know.

Jenn Salib Huber: 38:54

I'm still in brain fog, you tell me I, I mean, we could have recognized it in the moment, but I, I just remember seeing the picture and and if you chopped our heads off, you could literally just like switch our bodies, like you know, and to this day, you know, we're still exactly the same size. Basically we're the same height. Um, we can wear each other's clothes. If something fits you, I always joke I would buy it off the clearance rack sight unseen, because I know it's going to fit me.

Jenn Salib Huber: 39:23

And it was such a powerful moment of how significant genetics are. And again, we're half sisters. We share a lot of DNA. We actually know how much DNA we share, but you know we do share a lot of DNA. But it was really striking that you know we grew up completely different environments. You know we're not, we don't have both biological parents sharing that gene pool. You know you've never intentionally dieted. I spent my entire life on a diet. So we had all of these differences and yet genetics were such a big driver of what our bodies looked like. That it was. It was validating to me, it was reassuring, it was normalizing and it helped me to appreciate my body more, way more.

Friedel: 40:10

Well, so this is how I started out, this little segment saying I don't really know why that is. More Well, so this. So I started out this little segment saying I don't really know why that is. But actually I think this was the critical moment for me, realizing, as you said, we just had such different experiences, didn't even know the other existed for the first 40, whatever years of our lives. And yet we're just so darn similar. And it makes you think well, I'm just the way that I'm, I'm just the way that I'm meant to be.

Friedel: 40:33

So why am I trying to force myself, you know, into someone else's ideals, whether that's the ideals of another person who's telling me that I could go on this diet and lose 10 kilos, or the ideals of society as a whole? I mean, it's just also pointless. It just creates so much stress and puts so much pressure on us. And why? Because I'm just the way I am. And that's a conversation that I'm having now very often with health providers who always tell me that my BMI is too high and that I should lose some weight. And yeah, well, actually my doctor doesn't even try and have that conversation with me anymore because I've kind of closed that door. Yeah, and, and I, I. What was I going to say? I don't know, I lost my train of thought.

Jenn Salib Huber: 41:22

Rainfog's not totally gone, but I, I love, I love the um, I love the appreciation that you know that moment. But also, just you know, because you're pretty awesome, Like I mean, obviously I think you're awesome but you know, looking at your life and all the things you've done, you've cycled around the world right, like your body's done some pretty amazing things. You know, and most people I think could appreciate their body more if we were supported and conditioned to not compare our bodies to others. But that comparison is the unfortunate societal norm.

Friedel: 42:05

Yeah, and I've really noticed, since I've been reflecting on this in the last few years, how often we as women unintentionally you know, with with the very best of intentions often compliment other women on how we look and on our body shapes.

Friedel: 42:23

It just it happens so often oh, you look really thin in that dress, you know, and people mean it in the very best way. But this kind of pressure comes from those. It comes from the big societal issues, but it also comes from the everyday little comments that you hear and it's really hard to get away from it. Or you know, when you're hearing a group of women sit down and talk I can't tell you the number of times when the talk turns to dieting and what's healthy or what's not healthy and which food you should eat or which food you shouldn't eat, and it's just really hard to get away from it. If you don't have a really strong sense of who you are and just satisfaction with yourself, it's really easy to be pulled down that road and think, oh, I need to be different or I'm not good because I'm eating the chocolate bar at lunch instead of the salad.

Jenn Salib Huber: 43:12

Like we're just all trying to do our best, right, but we have this, we get this messaging that there's like the one right way and that you know, we have to keep looking for, like that magical road, that magical way of doing things, without any consideration of you know how difficult it can be to even just eat normally when life is busy. Like, let alone perfectly like. Who can eat perfectly? Nobody, Right. And so why do we have that standard?

Friedel: 43:42

No, what I was going to say is and I know this is not a food podcast, this is a menopause podcast but I think when we're talking about food, we so often think about the negative aspects of certain foods, but we overlook the positive aspect, but we overlook the positive aspects of some foods which are traditionally classified as negative. So here's what I mean by this. I take my kids to McDonald's. Okay, I can tell you that in some circles of people I know, this is something you should never, ever do, because McDonald's is a bad place to be. We have the best conversations at McDonald's because it's where they want to be. You know, and it's really now.

Friedel: 44:23

I don't take them every day, okay, and we're eating lots of other things other than Big Macs and French fries, but we go, like I don't know, once a month, couple times a month, and I can tell you we have the best time when we go. We have the best conversations, they're having a great time, we're really connecting, and we never talk about that when we talk about foods. Or, you know, when we sit down and eat a piece of cake, it's a celebration of something, or it's just sitting down and saying, hey, this piece of cake tastes really, really good, and we baked it together. Wasn't that wonderful. So I think food is just so much more than the calories or the ingredients that go into it, and I think that's a conversation that we need to have not only in this stage of life, but just in society in general.

Jenn Salib Huber: 45:09

We need to welcome all the reasons why we eat not just for nutrition. Yeah, all the reasons why we eat not just for nutrition, yeah, oh, my goodness, this has been amazing, so I forgot to remind you the most important question what do you think?

Friedel: 45:23

is the missing ingredient in midlife. Oh no, I totally forgot to think about this. How many of your podcasts have I listened to too? Let me think on the spot. Missing ingredient in midlife, I think, and I'm pretty sure someone else has said this. But can I say something that someone else has already mentioned before? Okay, we're allowed doubles. Great. I'm going to say community.

Friedel: 45:52

I have said to you so many times I am just and I hope I can try not to cry I am so grateful to have you as my sister, not only because you're an amazing sister, but also just because you have been such, a, such a resource for me going through this stage of life, and I genuinely do not know what I would have done if I hadn't had you to tell me that I was not going crazy and that this was all perfectly normal, and give me some tips for getting through it. So you have been an incredibly part of my Gosh. I can't even talk anymore. See, that's what menopause does to your brain. You've been an incredibly important part of my community important part of my community, but also I've connected with so many other people who are going through this stage of life and just being able to go for a walk together or drop each other a line on social media.

Friedel: 46:47

Some people I don't even know them, but you know I posted on social media that I was going through menopause and that I was experiencing something, and they reached out and they said to me you know, you're definitely not alone. I've had this experience too. So I would just say community that coming together, sharing in a nonjudgmental way, just being there for each other and helping each other to find our way down this path, this moment in life, which is not straightforward. The path can be kind of rocky. It has a lot of twists and turns and bumps in it and if we're going to get to the end, that paved section of road, at the end we need each other. We can't do it alone.

Jenn Salib Huber: 47:29

And we were never meant to, as Brene Brown would remind us. We were never meant to do this alone, too, as Brene Brown would remind us, we were never meant to do this alone. So, thank you, thank you, thank you for sharing all of that. I've loved having you and I love you. Oh, I love you too. Thanks for joining us everyone. My nephew, max Friedel's son, has a special message for us. Thanks for listening. We'll be back in September for new episodes. Thanks for tuning in to this week's episode of the midlife feast For more non diet, health, hormone and general midlife support. Click the link in the show notes to learn how you can work and learn from me, and if you enjoyed this episode and found it helpful, please consider leaving a review or subscribing, because it helps other women just like you find us and feel supported in midlife.