The Slippery Slope of CEO Success w/ Rich Edwards | Ep. 97

In this podcast episode, David and Gary speak with the CEO of Mindspan Systems Rich Edwards. They discuss the evolution of CEO’s and how to be Mr. Nice guy in a sea of change and incredulity.

Links:

https://www.linkedin.com/in/richedwards/

https://mindspaninc.com/

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David Baxter has been designing, building, and advising startups and businesses for over ten years. His passion, knowledge, and brutal honesty have helped dozens of companies get their start.

In Biz/Dev, David and award-winning Creative Director Gary Voigt talk about current events and how they affect the world of startups, entrepreneurship, software development, and culture.

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Transcript

David: 0:05

Hi, everyone, welcome to the biz dev Podcast, the podcast about developing your business. I'm David Baxter, your host and I'm joined as always by Gary Voight, who is a member of the tall at Club. I had this funny visual that underneath your hat Your forehead

Gary: 0:20

is actually that big. Right? Beavis and Butthead. Like yeah, like a conehead from the close, but not close. Yeah, he just wants to tangle with the camera. Yeah.

David: 0:31

So it's quite a quite a hat do you? Do they come in small, medium and large, or you just went for the

Gary: 0:36

man? In small,

David: 0:38

so nice. Very nice. More importantly, when you have a tiny little micro head, I shouldn't say anything. I have a melon head. And we are joined by rich Edwards, who is the CEO at mind span systems. How're you doing?

Rich: 0:55

Good. Good to be here. Thanks for having me.

David: 0:57

Absolutely. So you are? I mean, make sure I understand this, because I'm interested in particular, mine span focuses on community banks. What what does that mean? I'm not a bank here. I have a bank. That's as far as I get. So tell me about community bank. And what does that mean?

Rich: 1:15

Sure. So that the simplest version is small. But your you know, the technical definition gets into credit unions and chartered banks that are have less than $10 billion in assets. And there's, there's some market factors that kind of get into why that's a clip, but it's mainly regulatory things you have to do become way harder and more difficult. It's it's not that there aren't public companies below that. But the the regulatory hurdles, and the things you have to do above that become much harder and much more difficult. So there's, you're either below that, or you're way above it, right, that kind of becomes this, like calling line for the whole thing. And so on the smaller side is colloquial referring to is community financial institutions would cover all of those, those companies like that.

David: 2:06

I know, the little I know about banking is that there's tons and tons of acquisitions that happen. And it's that sort of I mean, how do you go from a community bank? Or is there a lot of acquisitions to stay right at that $10 billion range? Or is it boom, now I'm in the stratosphere, I got bought by one of the big boys.

Rich: 2:28

It's usually smaller companies coming together trying to like corner part of the market or have a footprint in another state, for example. But ya know, lots of that has been for the past 20 years, and a little bit more, but the trend, right, very, very infrequent, you see a brand new bank or what's called a de novo bank, that doesn't happen very often. In fact, do you get a lot of press about it when it does, because it's like a weird thing that happens, it is usually a combination of the smaller banks kind of becoming larger community banks, or or larger credit unions, or sometimes credit unions buying banks, which is a controversial thing.

Gary: 3:07

But that's a question I had, what is the difference between a community bank and a credit union? I just assumed, like in the area that I live, credit unions are smaller, and community banks are smaller. So are they closely related? Or is it just a difference in the way they do business?

Rich: 3:21

Yeah, it's not size, because there are some monster credit unions. Navy Federal, I believe is the largest one in the country. And they are they're well past that, that 10 billion mark. And there are smaller register banks like well below 100 million, you'll see in there as well. Right? So it's kind of a gamut. It's it's the business model and the charter, right, how they're how they're allowed to operate from a regulatory standpoint. The main difference between them is credit unions are nonprofits. And they're organized to serve a specific community or a specific charter. Now, sometimes that's a zip code charter. Sometimes, it's a specific class of, of consumer like employees. So you'll see a lot of credit unions that are like credit union for the employees of such and such company, or veterans specifically correct things like that. Right. Okay. That they have a defined charter that says this is the market that you're allowed to serve. Now, the controversial part comes in there is banks are happy to have credit unions serve smaller communities, slices of the market that, you know, they can't or don't want to touch. But when they get larger and become more competitive with banks, very clearly they have a cost benefit because they're nonprofits, right? They they're, they're not they don't have a tax slide in what they're doing. And that gives them a cost advantage. And so a lot of times that's why you see credit unions are able to offer advantageous rates on mortgages, car loans, personal loans, etc, etc. Right? because that's tied into it. And so there's always this tension back and forth between them on that level.

David: 5:08

So you are the CEO of mind span. Are you the founder?

Rich: 5:14

No mind span, mind span is existed, I think was originally founded in 2003. Okay. And I bought mine spin in 2018. Okay, and I did it in like kind of a career transition where, you know, I was ready to kind of go do something else and kind of had a thesis about what I wanted to do and was looking for an organization that had a very specific background and skill set and experience in a certain part of the market in mind span very much fit the bill. And I was kind of fortunate after a rather lengthy search to find somebody who was about the right size, and the founder was ready to move on.

David: 5:56

So I heard an interesting phrase, I don't know, the right term for it. It was it was an interesting concept that I heard on YouTube. And again, I can never remember who the person is. But he's a really buff guy. And he gives financial advice. And I found it to be really interesting. He mentioned and I'm not even sure if this is his idea, but I'm gonna give him credit for it. Alex, something. Anyway, stone,

Gary: 6:19

hard cash, Steve Austin,

David: 6:21

no, stop it back off. This is why you're not allowed to talk, Gary. He mentioned that there were three kinds of people, there was the artist, people who start businesses run business, those are artists, there's the hybrid, and there's the entrepreneur, and the art, the artist is someone like me who was good at a thing, and decided to start a business to do the thing. And they love the thing. And they wanted to hire and grow around that. My case is custom development. But it could be anything that you're passionate about. The entrepreneur is someone whose thing, the thing that they love, is business itself. They don't care what they're running, they just want to run a business. And a hybrid, of course, is a mix of the two. So where would you find yourself since you bought this business? You did a search? Yeah, you bought this business, this wasn't a passion. You weren't a banker who just decided here, I'm gonna help banks, you decided to buy this business? What was that process for you?

Rich: 7:20

Well, so a little bit about my background. I started my career as an engineer my undergraduate degrees in engineering, and actually went to school on ROTC scholarship and was an engineer officer in the army. Now, this was the 90, so it was totally different deals long before 911. And I was gone by the time 911 happened. So my experience totally different than experience everybody else from the past two decades. But when I when I got out, I worked in manufacturing for a little bit work for Alcatel, in, in communications market was working in fiber optic cable industry. And it was very much like operations focused very similar to kind of what I had done. As an engineer as, as an Army officer, you know, very much like frontline leadership type stuff, you know, that like blocking and tackling aspect of things. And I wanted to get into business management and in particularly on the market side, and I ended up going back to school, got my MBA at Carolina, here in Chapel Hill. And, you know, that was a, that was a big, you know, kind of career shift. And that got me into a marketing position in IBM. And kind of along the way, I got into the software business over there. And I really didn't have a background in software business, but did a lot of work from a market analysts standpoint. And ended up eventually into a business that in product management that focused on banking, financial services, large government operations, data center, automation, things like that, you know, making things run and work and then getting into the business requirements of that. So I was never a developer, I didn't do anything like that. But it was got really into understanding business requirements, helping translate that into technical requirements, and then turning it into a finished product, right, like that whole process. And that really kind of set the hook for the whole idea of, you know, what do you want to be able to go do, but, you know, we really went deep in that as a as a, like, a domain of understanding. And then on the industry side, it just by happenstance, it turned out to be banking and financial services. And, you know, I was making the rounds with all the Wall Street banks and you know, every big banking center in the world to kind of talk to clients about what they needed to do, particularly kind of post recession, you know, away 10 When the regulatory requirements on banks were getting ratcheted up, and there's a whole lot of new things that they had to do plus There was this, you know, massive consolidation that was going on. And these were like, these turned into like difficult technical problems, right, that we were kind of helping them solve. So that was that was like, an exciting experience to be involved in that. And then not because of anything that, you know, I could do other than knowing how the machine of offerings work and IBM, I got tapped to go work at what would become the Watson business unit, to work in artificial intelligence and the part that we were building, it existed for a while, obviously, there was like the Jeopardy work, there was the things that were being done and knowledge management around health care and cancer research, the stuff that was in the commercials at the time. And they were looking to build a basically like an API driven platform, so that customers could build on top of the technology could build things themselves, right and use the incredible level of resources that were basically sitting in IBM Research, largely geared around natural language processing, that wasn't the only thing. But that was certainly where the major focus was, and make that available, you know, via a platform that customers could use. And today, that's kind of like, oh, yeah, well, everybody does that. Well, back in 2013, other than some of the speech to text work that Google was doing around the Android ecosystem, none of that really existed, it wasn't really flushed out. And so we were kind of early to that, and brought that together. And so, you know, I got about three and a half, four years of drinking from the firehose on, kind of the very leading edge of kind of what AI was at the time and what it was going to be. But mostly, it was about working with customers, and working with a lot of existing customers and new customers that were thinking about the use cases, you know, how can we really leverage this? How can we change my business model, give me advantage. And because I was the bank guy, because of what I did, I became the guy that, hey, go back to Wall Street, go back to, you know, Canary Wharf in London, go to Zurich, go to all the places where the banking industry is, and go talk to him about this and see what they're interested in, you know, kind of show them what we got. Right? So, you know, I had this, this team that we kind of called developer evangelism that was, you know, the outreach for come build on top of our platform? And what are your specific requirements and kind of how can we help you do that? So that was, that was kind of my last four years at IBM. And it was was great was awesome. I really enjoyed it. And I learned a lot. But again, that kind of hook had been set around doing my own thing. And you know, at that point, you know, I'm mid 40s, looking at what am I going to do? And it's like, are you really going to do this now? Or you're not, you know, you're the clock's ticking on this. Now, I know, everybody kind of talks about, Well, Ray Kroc was in his 50s, when he did McDonald's, and was Harland Sanders was like a 70s, when he started, you know, KFC, and, you know, everything that you know, Winston Churchill for was in his late 60s, but like, yeah, I don't think I'm that kind of like, right tail guy that's gonna, like pull that out in my last five years. So it was like, now we're never now's the time to do it. And so that's what kind of started me down the path of, in my case, my kind of investment thesis that makes it sound smarter than it was. But what I was looking for was really somebody, you know, an organization that had experience working with customers in regulated industries, where data handling was difficult, and it was expensive, but it was also very valuable. And they were kind of willing to put the effort and the time and bring in experts to help them with that. And so that was really where mind span came in. And, you know, most of where their business was, was in financial services, banking and healthcare. And that's really where most of our businesses today. Now, I have found based on my background, and who I am, it is difficult for me to make a compelling case that we could really big, grow a big business in healthcare, we've we cannot work with some partners, and certainly have some interesting things there. But really, I can tell a much more interesting story on the finance and banking side. So we've kind of shifted towards that from from a growth standpoint and how we position ourselves today.

David: 14:33

So, anecdote here, I, let's see, probably it was 20, late 2014, early 2015. Somewhere in that range. I used Watson for one of our clients early days. And we use you guys we built on your platform. Somewhat. It was a it was a cloud there, the funktionale so there's no NDA broke. But they defunct a long time ago, actually. they want they had some connection with you guys at IBM at the time, and wanted to embrace AI. And so we ended up using your dialogue tree thing. And that was that was intense. But it was it's interesting how that you're right in that same time frame we were in, it was still pretty squishy at the time when we were doing it. It was still you guys were still hammering out, like the docs and the API's and stuff. It was pretty pretty. It was a moving target as it were. I'm curious, though, what's your thoughts? Since you do have that experience? How is IBM feeling now that AI has exploded? And yet they were one of the early birds?

Rich: 15:44

You know? I think, again, this is Rich Edwards opinion, right? Sure. You're not an IBM employee? Right? My personal opinion is I think they missed a huge opportunity. And that was largely on really wanting to be a services business, right, which is where the vast majority of revenue was coming from not necessarily profit, but revenue and being less interested in being a product or a software driven business. And where are things headed and how they focus they they did, made some amazing investments. And there were some really great things there. But it seemed to be played a second fiddle to the services side, it was very much like, how can we use this to get more services revenue, which being a software guy, right, it would drive you crazy. Because you're like, you're sitting on this a goldmine, and you're leveraging it to kind of go after like a trucking business on the side. Right? I mean, that's, that's very derogatory services, businesses, and that certainly what I mean, sure, yeah, it seems from my perspective, it seemed like a missed opportunity. And I think if you look at how they they position now, I think they, they're kind of sticking with that, that, that play. Arvind Krishna, the CEO, now, I mean, he, he ran the what was then called information management business, which is basically like the database business. And that was kind of where he cut his teeth as a general manager and kind of position himself in the line of succession behind Ginni Rometty. And a lot of things that he does, so he, you know, he, he knows he has the background from that standpoint. And, you know, I think he's kind of playing the hand that he's dealt from that standpoint. So

David: 17:38

it's interesting, because I think Google, very well could have done the same thing, not necessarily the service angle, but they were sitting I mean, like we've said before, like a million people have said before the tea and chat GPT was invented by Google. Exactly. They've been in the thick of it for a long time. And yet, they were so afraid to make a product that might upset their money train that they did not have any plans to do so until Microsoft in their famous words, made them dance. And I am curious, if in five or 10 years if Microsoft is going to look back, like the Japanese and World War Two waking the sleeping giant, because Google is very good at this. And now they're incentivized because Microsoft is coming for him hard. They're incentivized to now make a product on stuff that they truly, truly know. And it wouldn't surprise me because of that kick in the pants. If in five or 10 years, it's still Google in charge. And Microsoft is like, Man to this angry little guy in the back who so close. So close. We'll see. I could be totally completely wrong. But it's really interesting. Yeah,

Rich: 18:51

I remember reading it might have been a podcast or was an article I was reading. And they were talking about, like a top 10 companies today, how many of them were top 1020 years ago? Only one and it was Microsoft, Microsoft's the only one has been around? Correct. Now, granted, it is a completely different Microsoft than it was 20 years ago. And they have demonstrated their ability to, you know, even having missed mobile effectively, completely. And to a certain extent, been late to the game with Cloud, they're still there. Right? They've still managed to kind of, you know, pivot and move around what they're doing and take up a new direction to stay relevant at that at that scale, globally. I mean, yeah, kudos. I mean, that against that, right. You know?

David: 19:38

Yeah, there they are. Probably, I mean, 20 years ago, Google was super to me, what year 2003. So they were just coming of age, right. Microsoft had been dominating for 15 years. By that point. Apple was just getting warmed up from almost going bankrupt.

Rich: 19:54

They had a market cap of, I think about 50 or 60 billion, and they're 2.8 Today All right, yeah. Which almost a 500x. You know, it's like,

David: 20:04

what in the crazy thing is, is it one of those things that get lost in history? The only reason there's apple at all right now is because Microsoft saved their bacon. It gave them a mountain of money to keep them solvent. Because Bill Gates didn't want to be the only one on the planet. So wanted a competitor. And so that's it. People forget that all the time, especially Apple nerds like Gary down there. Forget that Microsoft is the only reason Apple exists. It's important to remember that Gary? A good trillion dollars, at least to Microsoft. Yeah. What what what's interesting is for a long time, and I'm sure this has ended a while ago, but for a long time, a big part of Microsoft's profit line was that additions to Apple stock because they owned so much of the company. They were non voting shares or anything, but they had a ton of stock. And as Apple went through the stratosphere, Microsoft is making bank and it was such an interesting thing to see these two. I mean, it has been rivals for ever. Sure. And now I'm sure at this point. I don't know this. I would assume they've sold that by now. But I don't know, maybe not.

Rich: 21:13

Anyway, I mean, they also had a pretty good CEO during that time as well.

David: 21:18

I mean, it was titans of industry for sure what we're I guess we're in another age of Titans. But they're still here.

Gary: 21:25

Yeah. Well, I don't know. tech CEOs are now still striving to be the next Steve Jobs. And it's just not gonna happen. They don't have the charisma.

Rich: 21:33

But like, here's the thing, Steve, Steve Jobs, right. Like he was the next Edwin Land, right? It wasn't like he kind of came out of nowhere, and everything was unique. He went back and looked at like, you know, what Polaroid had done. Kind of in post World War Two. And in fact, I think there's a story about him actually meeting Edwin Land, like in the late 70s When he started Apple and like having an actual personal connection with it. But you look at the playbook. Man, everybody stands on the shoulders of giants, right? Oh, for sure. It's do you pick the right giants to stand on? Right?

David: 22:06

Yeah, if you pick the wrong one, you look like a moron. And it's, it's really it's I mean, Steve Jobs. I debate Gary all the time. I've read his his biography. I don't know if I would ever consider Steve Jobs a charismatic individual. Certainly a genius. But not a lot of people liked him, which is usually which you would consider carriers. But

Gary: 22:28

yeah, maybe not the right word. I'll just say he had a gravity around him. For sure.

Rich: 22:33

And certainly the ability to like extract exceptionally good work out of people, whether they liked him or not, right? His ability to paint a vision and drag people along and have the discipline organizationally to like say no to all the things they said to his his ability to rationalize their portfolio, like amazing.

Gary: 22:55

I think one of the things said most about his reason for success is his ability to say no, and just like, No, that's not enough, not what I wanted. I don't care how many people you say are gonna like this, I'm gonna say they're gonna like this version better, and just keep going. And it turns out, he was right. I wouldn't say more often, he was wrong. But he was right enough to make that kind of his legacy for

David: 23:19

us. I, when I think of leadership, though, I want to care about my people, I want to, I want to get in the trenches with them. I want them to know that I care. I know, I want them to build a good product, because they believe in what we're doing, not because they're afraid of me.

Rich: 23:35

But I think there's certainly a lot of lessons and things you can kind of take away from from anybody. Right? Fair. It's not all or nothing. It's not like in order to be a design genius, you have to be a jerk to everyone, right? No, absolutely not. You know, the person is not the whole, right. There's plenty of things that they're going to be 10 out of 1011 out of 1012 out of 10 on right.

David: 23:58

I like the idea of talking leadership in general, because I think all the people listening to us all the small business owners who are striving to build something great. They have to build something great. Again, stand on someone's shoulders. And yeah, who you choose to stand on. I think matters. And I think a lot of people look at Steve Jobs, and they're like, man, yeah, that's great. Or they look at Gary Vee, who you know, now he's rebranded himself, but for a long time, he was also hustle, hustle, right? work until you die, blah, blah, blah. And now he's about kindness and feel good. I don't know if that happens after you're a certain level of success. And you can let that off the gas. I don't know. But I think it's important to find out who you want to model yourself after. And then do that. And but do your research, right? It's really easy to follow some of these guys, especially in the social media age, and to think, oh, he has all the answers. I'm going to follow this person and find out they're really big jerks. I don't know. So okay, we will loop it back to you. So So, you start or not, so you buy mine spring? Yep. And so tell me a bit a bit more about what you guys do for the community banks. Are you a software platform? Are you a services platform? What do you guys do?

Rich: 25:13

Yeah, we're we're services, we have a few software assets that we'll bring to bear, but we're primarily a services company. And really, you know, what we do is we help the companies we work with, make their first party data a productive asset, it's, let's turn this into something that you're actually going to use. And particularly in, in, like I said, in a regulated industry, when you say things like governance around data, they will automatically put that in the vein of like risk and compliance, which means lock it down, never touch it, it's a third rail. It's a liability. In fact, like the fact that we have information about our customers, this is something we can be sued over. So therefore, never use it, never make it available. Lock it down, keep it siloed in 12, different organizations, 12 different places, whole thing, never, never put it in the cloud data warehouse, anything like that. And the problem is, that's fine. But all you're doing is preventing downside, you have like no upside that you're able to do with that. And not just upside from like a financial standpoint. But upside from like, How much better can you serve your customers? How much more relevant can you be, when you're showing up with the right offer at the right time in the right language, being there for your customers when you need them, regardless of what the domain or industry is, right? Being able to do that, like bringing that connection together. That is, that is a competitive advantage. And then when you look at it from financial services and banking standpoint, it's even more so when you're competing against a much larger institution that is almost that industrial scales for what they do. Their ability to talk one on one with their customers is incredibly hampered just by their size, just by their their level of kind of process overhead that they have, that they're at a disadvantage. And so for a smaller, more nimble organization, if they can do that and do a better job, and really bring the you know, what they're really good at a community bank is the in branch experience, you go into the bank, it is somebody who is your neighbor who understand you, right? And that's just not like a one on one thing, it's also their understanding of the market. That's why you see community banks are like way over indexed from small business financing. So Small Business Association, lending programs, commercial real estate, and agricultural banking, right, those those three areas, they punch, like 2x above their weight class, when you like, look at it as like a percentage of assets, etc, right. And it's because they're tied into that local community, they have that intelligence, that understanding of what that local market is to be able to engage with customers. And they wouldn't say this, but take bets that larger banks and institutions won't, because they're, they're painting a much broader swath like across the country, right, that doesn't have the ability to kind of allow for variances at the local market level. So that aspect of it like their ability to do that, that that's their magic. That's, that's why you know, institutions and the size have been around more than 100 years, because they're able to do that. The problem is, and this has become more acute in the past 1015 years, is that personal experience begins to fade away, it's the second you walk out the door. The digital channels they have like through their extended partners through ATM networks, like all the different ways that you might touch the bank or their services or how they help you, the further you will walk, you are away from that like in person experience, the less personal it gets, the less that that magic kind of works into the experience. And frankly, that's an opportunity for them. And it's it's not necessarily a technological one. There's certainly elements of that. But we're kind of well past the point where every community bag has a has a functional mobile app that they use, and it has most if not all of the capability it needs. It's their ability to really kind of orchestrate the experience. Be able to again show up at the right time with the right offering in the right language in the right way. That's going to solve a problem for their customer, right in branch nail it like nine times out of 10 They're great, right? Not always but but you know can really, really do well, and again, punch above their weight class, digital experience less so. And what they're seeing is, to a certain extent, millennials very much for Gen Z, they're almost a non player. And when you look at their market penetration, Gen X and older, still doing very well, high loyalty, you know, you look at the past three to four months of like asset flight that has gone out of smaller banks to like larger institutions, because people are scared about the security of their money. Community banks weigh over performed, did much better, like just a, a demonstrable value of the trust level that their customers have in them way better than like any other size of business.

Gary: 30:51

Yeah, it was. It seems like a warmer experience when you can actually like, I know the guy, and it's just, it's not just the big corporate entity. That's right, sending you emails every now and then

Rich: 31:02

who says I I'm not allowed to help you or I can't help you, or I have to read off the script for this thing that we're doing right. And it's infuriating a lot of times. So

David: 31:11

I think one thing that you're saying that I think isn't, what's the right word is not given enough credit is that locality in small business, because I think a lot of places are kind of shy about that. Because that means I'm small. And it's I'm small, that means I'm not as good. That's the mentality. But I think a lot of small businesses could really lean into that and figure out ways that that smallness, local business, can be a real admin advantage versus Oh, well, I'm not llbean. But I'm selling shirts. Right? Well, okay. But you can sell very specific just, I'm seeing it. I don't know if this is a thing here. But Durham, which I know is where you are. There is something about that town. Everybody loves Durham, there are T shirts that say Durham on it. And there aren't a lot of cities that can pull that off. I don't have a single one says Wake Forest, right? There's just not a thing that anybody can, and you don't really even see. I mean, it's not even a size thing because Raleigh doesn't have a meter I think Dallas does, but Dallas is weird. But

Rich: 32:17

yeah. Well, they didn't make a movie about your baseball team. So you know, there's

David: 32:21

that's fair, that's fair. But it's what I think is interesting is a lot of local businesses have been popping up to sell Durham specific clothing. Because they realize they're tapping into that passion that people who live there really after the town, and it is becoming like, this is the ultimate hyperlocal market. Yeah. And thanks for stealing my thunder there, Gary, appreciate that. And it's just really interesting. I mean, and I think that's something that small businesses, while they're small, eventually maybe you do get bigger. But while you're small, embrace that local newness, and I think it's advantageous.

Rich: 33:00

Yeah, the proximity to customers, right? Your, your closeness to them, your ability to react to them, the the level of kind of genuine interaction you have with them, the bigger they get, the more layers you have, the weaker that becomes. Right. And that is that is just the natural elements of becoming a larger organization. It's a rarity that you see somebody that's able to kind of overcome that. And, yeah, that's a thing that is very much a thing and something you know, when you look at it from SWOT analysis, or anything where you're trying to figure out what am I really strengths? You know, where can I stand out and be differentiated in the market? Man, that is a that is a big one right there. And, you know, you start thinking about your strategy and the investments I'm going to make, you know, how can I take that element of my business and turn it up to 11? And just be so far beyond? What any other option what any alternatives a customer might have? Yeah, huge, huge advantage. And that's really where a lot of you know, competitive moats come from, as well.

Gary: 34:09

I got a question. Since we're giving advice, what would you say are your top three pieces of advice for an entrepreneur, small business, local business, new business starting up? Based on your experience, plus, you have a background in the operational side of things, so you sure might have an advantage there after someone? A lot of times small business owners well, they'll go right in and not have an operational plan. They kind of filter that back in once things are moving, and then try to retrofit it. So if you have any up from upfront advice about yeah, getting your operations and your processes in order first.

Rich: 34:46

I think one of the best pieces of advice I got particularly kind of being a first time CEO was a friend of mine who I I think he's three or four times into it at this point and I'd actually connected with him is his company had been acquired by IBM, and we kind of work together. And then he went off and did two more. He, I remember, he told me once he said rich, is you have to be the the leader or the CEO that your organization needs, not the one that you want. And he went on to tell me about his second company, where, you know, he was like me, because we connected over this, he was like a product management guy, Product Strategy under the customer, you know, all of those things, he goes into this, this, this companies and like all of the problems that he had to deal with that were on fire that he needed to do to get them to the next level, had nothing to do with product. It was all these like other weird things, stuff about insurance, and like how they were going to get people paid. And like all these, like organizational things, and he says, so I had to, like lean into that I had to be that guy for the organization during that phase of our growth, even though that's not what I wanted to do, you take on that job as leader, right? I mean, it is, the buck stops with you, you got to you got to get it done. So it's either you're gonna find the right people to delegate this to, or you're going to clear the way so that the people that are working for you work on the thing that, you know, their 10x on that is really about their skills, and kind of clear way everything else, right, and that kind of becomes your job. So you know, having having that, I guess humility might be the right word, or at least self awareness to understand, you know, starting something new, like, you gotta get your hands dirty, and you're gonna have to do stuff that you know nothing about, you've never done before. And you're gonna have to be the one that figures out how to be the expert on it, or figure out enough that you You're, you're qualified to, you know, hire somebody or bring somebody in to kind of do it for you. But you're smart enough to know, I'm an educated buyer in this space. Right? Which, you know, the older you get the the worse you are at being a college freshman. Right? So that's a that's a pretty big barrier, and it can't be a drain, but you got to that's something you're signing up for. I think I gotta come up with three. Right? You

Gary: 37:16

said, so don't have to. Okay, all right. Well, we

Rich: 37:20

throw out dog tail, I'll dovetail one more on this, right, kind of that idea of like clearing the way for others, right? A lot of times, and I've seen this several times in my career. You know, the whole Peter Principle thing like somebody gets promoted to manager for the first time is because they were a really good individual contributor, like they knew their job, their job function really well. And it's like, well, now you're in charge everybody, right? You kind of shepherd them and lead them and coach them. And there's some elements to that, and like Team Lead positions do really well. But but there's a mindset switch that you have to go through to say, like, it is no longer my job to be the contributor, like my value is not what I do personally, it's what I enable everybody around me to do, all of the ways in which I'm able to set them up for success by creating the right environment by eliminating the barriers by getting rid of like the dumb things that are like holding them back, whether that's politics, within the organization, or dealing with with clients or some of the like, administrative stuff on the back end, all of the ways that you kind of engineer that to get the most out of your people that your scorecard becomes how well they do, not what you do. And that's, that's, that's, again, that's a very much a big shift to be a successful manager. And it's an even bigger shift, you know, when you're running the whole show, and it becomes, you know, multidisciplinary and and there's all these areas that, frankly, you have no background in.

Gary: 38:54

Yeah, David, I'm going to quote David to David. One of David's famous sayings on this show is your job as CEO is to give away your job. Meaning that if you start the company as the tactician or eventually as you grow, you have to give that up. So yeah, it kind of just not easily mimics or I should say, mirrors kind of the same piece of advice that you gave. Well, if anybody else wants to learn more about your company mind spin and what you guys do, what is the best way to get in touch with you or just find you online?

Rich: 39:30

Yeah, I'm most active on LinkedIn and Twitter. And I'm rich Edwards on both platforms. So you know LinkedIn in slash rich Edwards or Twitter slash rich Edwards. Our company mind span systems, it's mind span, Systems, Inc. Sorry, mind span inc.com. We own a couple of domains.

Gary: 39:49

We'll add those links to the show notes to for anybody just click on them. And if anybody has any comments or questions for us, you can email us at Hello at the big pixel.net or you can leave comments below this video, or get in touch with us on any one of our social media platforms.

David: 40:06

Gary also accepts pigeons to his house carrier pigeons, not just ringing carrier pigeons to the trailer, and flamingos actually

Gary: 40:15

crows and refer crows and ravens but pigeons ticket to

David: 40:21

rats in the sky. All right. Thank you so much rich for joining us. Thanks

Rich: 40:25

for having me. I appreciate

Gary: 40:26

it. And thank you for siding with me on the Steve Jobs is better than Bill Gates issue. All right. Well, that's all for this week. We'll see you guys did

David: 40:36

a good thing. You're cutting me off