Message Received: how authentic communication helps us find our voice and share our story - Kendra Fee-McNulty | S4E4

Kendra Fee-McNulty, founder of Raveloe+Co, leads an empathy-driven marketing consultancy that helps mission-driven organisations find their voice and share their stories authentically. We discuss effective storytelling and how to balance creativity and commerce without compromising your values.

Conversation Themes

• Kendra’s personal journey, including her experience as an adopted child and how it influenced her need to belong and excel, shaping her communication skills and career choices.
• Empathy as a Superpower: The ability to empathise deeply with others by understanding their thoughts, fears, and barriers.
• Misunderstanding and Connection: How misunderstandings arise from the gap between intention and perception, and how they can lead to disconnection but also offer opportunities for deeper connection and understanding.
• Building Scaffolding: The necessity for people, especially those who are curious and caring, to build personal scaffolding to thrive in environments not always conducive to authenticity and growth.
• Authentic Communication: The importance of authentic communication for mission-driven organisations to effectively share their stories and connect with their communities.

Links and Resources

• Raveloe+Co website
• The Infinite Game by Simon Sinek
• Spotlight syndrome
• Pygmalion effect

Full Show Notes
Visit the Grokkist podcast hub for a full digest of this episode including highlights and links to stuff we discussed: https://grokk.ist/stillcuriouspodcast/s4e4-kendra-fee-mcnulty

Recorded 7 March 2024

Website: grokk.ist/stillcuriouspodcast | Email: podcast@grokk.ist | Socials: @grokkist
Music: Kleptotonic Swing by Tri-Tachyon

Transcript

Kendra Fee-McNulty: 0:00

Everyone has that superpower the thing about them that makes them unique, that makes them really good at what they do. Those are all because of the scaffolding that we've built around ourselves and in the things that we've learned and through I phrase I like to use for my superpower. is like my empathy sandbox. It's being able to take my ego, put it aside, and figuratively put on the shoes of the other person and play around in that space. What are their thoughts, what are their fears, what are they worried about, what are they thinking about, what barriers are they going to have to the things that I am trying to communicate, so then we can work through together I work with mission driven organizations, to find their voice and share their story. you know how to talk about your thing, but because you have the language for it doesn't mean that the other person understands your language how people receive it is as important as what say. When you're able say something big really succinctly, I like to imagine it as a snowball when you have a lot of snow and you can pack it down and say it really succinctly, you can throw that a lot So being able to speak to people and meet people where they are, a big I think, to the types of problems that to help solve.

1:17

You're listening to this Still Curious Podcast with me. Danu Poyner. The show where I meet people who insist on relating to the world with curiosity and care. The people I call grokkist and talk to them about the red thread that runs through their life story and which ultimately empowers them to flourish as their unrepeatable selves. The voice you just heard belongs to my guest today. Kendra fee McNulty. Who is the founder of And company and empathy driven marketing and communications consultancy that helps impact driven organizations and individuals better weave their own stories and connect with their communities so they can do more good. Today's conversation is all about the power of communication. We live in a world, awash with misunderstanding. The messages we put out into the world are not often the same ones that other people receive. Misunderstandings into the world through this gap between what we intend and what others experience. And once the air is tainted with misunderstanding. What often results is confusion, hurt feelings, disconnection, and withdrawal. Each of us has a deep need to feel seen. Heard valued, accepted and understood. And often our journey through life is propelled by the momentum of those moments where that failed to happen. This is a common experience for grokkist in particular.

Kendra Fee-McNulty: 2:46

I had recently asked my husband, Drew, Build a scenario where like had to build my worst nightmare What would it be? And he said put you in a situation where there's authority figures who will not listen to you when you actually do have the context and you know a lot and you're in a position where there's a higher up or someone with more authority who disregards that experience. and that bonkers.

3:10

Perhaps one of the reasons grokkist have a thirst for understanding is precisely because we are ourselves. So used to being misunderstood. If we can get inside people's heads enough. If we can gather enough information, if we can understand all the rules of how the world works And see how it all fits together. Maybe just maybe we can avoid the pain of being misunderstood next time. If we can step outside misunderstanding as a place of fear, hurt and shame, we might also find that it can be a bridge to greater connection and belonging. Uh, bridge built from curiosity and care. More than that misunderstanding can be an opportunity for connection. It can be a place where a superpower is a born.

Kendra Fee-McNulty: 3:58

Being adopted, one of the things that they tell me was, you're special. We got to pick you so there was always that sense of belonging Inverse to I think in my tiny toddler brain, there are parts of me, like better live up to that. I better make sure that I'm an exceptional individual. I better make sure that I'm good in all of these things and in pleasing these people chose me. that shadowy story arc has definitely played a big role in my life in how I engage and how I interacted. I also it gave me my superpower to a certain extent.

4:31

Kendra was always interested in making a positive impact. From an early age, she loved learning about maths and science. And with genetics and gene therapy, all the rage in the early two thousands. She started out studying biotechnology with the aim of using genetics to cure a disease. But when she got into an actual lab and found herself alone, taking meticulous notes while moving up a pet back and forth all day. She realized this didn't really fit who she was. Already a keen photographer. She switched into biomedical photography and then into visual media. Where she found more of an outlet for her creativity. A threshold moment came when she took a public speaking class. With a woman who would become her mentor, Eileen Benz, igniting her passion for persuasive communication and leading her into the world of marketing. And Kendra readily acknowledges the X factor of marketing, which for many people is a thing that belongs firmly in the devil's toolbox and is responsible for emotional manipulation and the commercialization of creativity. But you also emphasizes the importance of authentic communication that helps purpose-driven organizations and individuals to find and share their voice. Because how people receive our message is as important as what we have to say. So in our wide ranging conversation, we explore this tension between creativity and commerce. And the scaffolding work that curious and caring people must build around ourselves in order to function in situations and environments that aren't always built for us to flourish as our authentic selves. We talked for instance about Kendra's ADHD diagnosis and how this impact, so work and the relief of finding communities of people you can relate to.

Kendra Fee-McNulty: 6:19

That, oh wait, you do that too? That's not just me? Like, I'm not failing as a human because I can't remember a date? That's so cathartic to feel when your entire life you felt like there was a deficit

6:31

We also discussed Kendra's experience with Toastmasters and how practicing public speaking has helped her navigate imposter syndrome. We consider how working with clients who have a shoestring budget can force creativity from constraints. And how her love of language and the imaginative worlds of Saifai fantasy and Dungeons and dragons have all enriched her appreciation for the infinite game of finding the right words.

Kendra Fee-McNulty: 6:57

There's power in a name. That's Patrick Rothfuss, right? To pull another nerdy reference of the power of'The Name Of The Wind', but I think that's probably too why I have such a love for branding when comes to marketing. Being able to kind of to company and get to the heart of it and getting those phrases, those words, those things that really speak to what they are or what they're trying to accomplish. I think that's super fun.

7:25

Through it all. Kendra returns often to her touchstones of empathy, curiosity, and continuous learning. Aiming to be a guiding force for others, much like her mentor Eileen Benz was for her. Kendra's story is a Testament to the power of personal passion and professional perseverance. On the ebb and flow journey to becoming our whole selves. It's a journey that contains many moments in which we are shorter. Recognize ourselves. And I'm grateful to Kendra for communicating it to me with such candor and clarity. It's my full conversation with Kendra fie McNulty. After the music on today's episode of the Still Curious Podcast.

Danu Poyner: 8:31

Hi Kendra, welcome to the podcast. How are you?

Kendra Fee-McNulty: 8:33

Good. How are you? Thanks for having me.

Danu Poyner: 8:35

So, let's start with what I like to call your social armour story. The polished, linear, runway ready version of your story that showcases your expertise and achievements. You describe yourself on LinkedIn as an intuitive marketing communicator who's developed a unique ability to read and engage people across different industries and degrees of understanding. You're adept at asking the right questions to understand each client's core value, and then translate it into a meaningful message that engages and drives action. You're skilled at strategic development, identifying and capitalizing on missed opportunities, optimizing the client customer experience, devising and delivering creative pitches and presentations, and working effectively with clients to educate, enlighten, and involve them in the evolution of their message. What would you say is the most important thing for someone to understand about what you do?

Kendra Fee-McNulty: 9:32

I think it comes down a lot to just marketing and communications. A lot of people think a lot about what they want to say to someone or something, whether it's in general communications or it's in a business context of, I want to talk my target audience, I want to sell my thing, my service, whatever it is. It's often that many people don't think about how that information is actually being received by that person. So, very early on in my career, I had a mentor who broke down communication in a really interesting way. Eileen Benz, is her name, she had basically thought of communications and in this context it was PR class in college, but Communication is like go go gadget arms if you're a good marketing communicator where you have the client or the business or whatever it is that you're trying to communicate, trying tell your story, you're trying to sell your widget. There's also audience and a good marketing communicator has go go gadget arms in both those camps. So they're able to act as translator to make sure and understanding both sides and then working that communication back and forth.

Danu Poyner: 10:41

It's really interesting that you mention the emphasis on how the message is received, because I think that makes a lot of sense. We spend a lot of time thinking about how to Put a message out into the world. We don't often stop to think about how it's being received. Why do you think that is?

Kendra Fee-McNulty: 10:56

think it's just kind of natural. That goes back to, I think, a little bit too that psychology around humans, the ego and the id, and we're constantly in our own heads and thinking about what we want to be doing and what we want to be putting out there. It's a skill, I think, for a lot of people to take yourself out of that and put yourself in someone else's shoes and play around in to think about how they're thinking about it and receiving that information. A lot of marketers today will tell you the same thing that it's not about you. It's about your client, your customer, the people that you're trying to communicate with. There's a great framework for thinking about this that I really enjoy, which is the strategic narrative. When you're thinking about telling story, there's standard arc, there's the hero of that story and they're moving their way their their happily ever after. A common trope is Cinderella story and Cinderella story is she's has a problem, she has a challenge, a fairy godmother comes, gives her this opportunity to change that fate, and she's off in her ever after. To use another reference of one of my favorites, Star Wars, Yoda and Obi Wan are that kind of catalyst for Luke, he's on a path, he's changing his perception and helps him become the hero of the Rebellion. It's That kind of strategic arc and narrative. As marketers and as businesses, and people sometimes, we're not the hero in the story. It's much more effective and much beneficial when you're thinking about that other person, when you're thinking about how can I help that hero to their happily ever after. It alleviates the pain for them, helps them get to that better place. So it's a unique and interesting way to think about it and reframe what you're trying to do because it opens up a whole new world of possibilities to look at it and think about it.

Danu Poyner: 12:48

Obviously, we'll be talking a lot about marketing and communications today, and I'm keen to get into more of the strategic narrative and Eileen Bens you mentioned, but I guess what we should do first is, how would you explain marketing to a 10-year-old?

Kendra Fee-McNulty: 13:04

That is a great question. I like to tack on that marketing communication because I think that's a big of it. There's two parts. There's the outbound, the push of trying to get something out whether it's a message, a mission, a product or service, you're trying to push something out into the world and how to best go about that, what messages you want say, how you want to sell that product with The Mission Vision Value is all of those fun buzzwords are. There's another half of that is the inbound. It's trying to have people find You, and I like to think of it as creating Forest paths where you are finding different ways to create these paths who are on their own mission journey, their own Luke Skywalker story arc, to find and make their way to you so that can then help them. So there's those two kind of pushing things out, but then also bringing people to you.

Danu Poyner: 13:59

I have this image in my head when you go to the gym for the first time, everyone talks about how you're really worried about how other people are perceiving you and looking at you and you feel really self conscious. And then after a while, you start to realize that no one is paying any attention to you at all. And they're all doing their own thing and don't even know that you exist most of the time, unless you're in their way. And I was just thinking about that. In terms of what you were saying about how messages are received and the psychology of putting stuff out there. Do you have anything to say about that?

Kendra Fee-McNulty: 14:35

That thing is actually called spotlight syndrome where you think that you are the on the stage in the black auditorium and the spotlight is on you and everyone is looking at you. Whereas in reality, Everyone is thinking that of themselves and is in their own little worlds as they're moving about in the universe.

Danu Poyner: 14:53

It's like that saying that the advice they give to writers, write like no one's watching,

Kendra Fee-McNulty: 15:00

Dance like no one's watching. It's a little bit of a detriment But it also can be a help. When you're in it, you are totally in it. You're seeing everything in your own little bubble in your own little world. I love Working with other people and when you get those outside perspectives and those outside eyes looking in you bring them into the bubble with you. You get whole new sense and perspective on the situation and It's one of my favorite things about collaborating with others.

Danu Poyner: 15:31

I guess with marketing, unlike the spotlight syndrome where you're worried everyone's paying attention to you but they're not, in marketing you want everyone to be paying attention to you, but they're not.

Kendra Fee-McNulty: 15:42

I think The grokkist terminology of like that social armor is kind of perfect an allegory for it, too. There is this kind of perception and persona that you put out into the world. For instance, that LinkedIn paragraph, While parts of it are totally true, and I would go into each sentence and explain it in a more personable way, it's very surface level and doesn't really get to the heart of who anyone is. It takes a lot to really be Cognizant and creative and specific in how you communicate all of those things so that people can actually break through that outer shell and see the gooey inner bits, the reason that you're doing something, the mission. People ultimately want to do business people and people ultimately are driven by their emotions and not logic, much to our chagrin. But when you relate to someone on an emotional level, when you feel or for their cause or you agree with them in it it resonates at heart of it, so much more likely to see the needle moved in action.

Danu Poyner: 16:44

I don't think I've ever had anyone on the podcast who is happy with the statement about themselves. We all spend ages crafting those things and then everyone's like, ah, cringe when they hear it. So I think that's really interesting and when we're having a conversation about marketing and communication and how those messages go out and how they're received. In these conversations, I like to get to what I call the shadow story, the one that we mostly keep to and sometimes from ourselves. The messy, complicated, and the non linear story that teems with weird and wild moments and half forgotten hopes and curiosities and hidden threshold moments. But I think both stories are important. The social armour one we put out there keeps us safe in the world, and we need that. But our shadow self is the one that knows what we need as people. So I'm always really fascinated by the way both of those stories interact with each other, and what they have to say to each other. perhaps let's start here. You're an only child, as am I, and by all accounts, your parents gave you a very secure and loving upbringing, which mine did as well. And the older I get, and the more people I meet, the more I realize just how significant that emotionally secure environment has been for the way I move through the world. I'm wondering if that's something that you've found too.

Kendra Fee-McNulty: 18:05

I think so. Not only am I an only child, I'm also adopted. So certain level of, care and consideration that my parents put into being involved in my life as I grew and the focus specifically for my mom, what we would call now as a helicopter parent might also but it was all well for sure. One of the things I remember growing up is, as being adopted, one of the things that they tell me was, you're special. We got to pick you so there was always that sense of belonging Inverse to I think kind of out that bit that kind of expectation to, better live up to that. I think in my tiny toddler brain, there are parts of me, like I better make sure that I'm an exceptional individual. I better make sure that I'm good in all of these things and in pleasing these people chose me. So I think that that is a struggle and kind of a shadowy story arc that has definitely played a big role in my life in how I engage and how I interacted. I also it gave me my superpower to a certain extent. This kind of ability. to read and engage people because I was constantly temperature checking. You know, you're constantly gauging and seeing how things are going. It was a little bit of a emotional chameleon where trying to fit in the people. We all go that when we're young, trying to find, our people. To a certain extreme degree when I was much younger and definitely noticed it as I started dating in my young adult life, how you would mold yourself to a specific situation, to a specific partner and kind of ebb flow in that rather than again, uncracking that shell to being your whole self.

Danu Poyner: 19:56

That's a really interesting example of what you were saying at the top about messages and how we intend them and how they're received, because your parents very well intentioned and warm and loving and helicoptering, as you put it,"you're special we get to pick you" is a lovely message and it is received nicely, but it also has this other connotation to it. What kinds of things was young Kendra into? What are some of your most vivid memories from childhood?

Kendra Fee-McNulty: 20:24

One of the biggest memories is my dad and I used to go and take hikes with our dogs growing up. So that was a big one, a just being and walking trails, it was a moment of bonding for him and I, kind of having conversations. He would treat me like an adult almost. Or as an individual rather than his child. We'd chat and we'd talk and it was a special moment. The other Big memories from childhood, similar to that is I lived in a big, suburban neighborhood, but we were backed up to a bunch of woods that had yet to be developed and there were bike trails that all the neighbor kids busted through and we were developing neighborhoods So there was you know construction materials all around and, needless to say I think the statute of limitations is gone, we stole some of those the scrap materials and made forts in the trees so I think that kind of like being outside being in nature, but also being with others was a big part of my childhood.

Danu Poyner: 21:19

You mentioned your dad treating you like an adult. I had that kind of experience as well. As an only child, my parents always treated me as an equal decision making partner in all the big life decisions. Which was nice, but I often didn't have a lot of the context you know, for choosing what school to go to and where we would live and those things. It's given me a lot of Self-confidence and ability to make those kind of decisions, but also it's given me a resistance to authority and a difficulty in being just, like a team player. Sometimes I think. So these things always cut both ways.

Kendra Fee-McNulty: 21:55

No, absolutely. It's also really frustrating, I know it's a common thing when you actually do have the context and you know a lot and you're in a position where there's a higher up or someone with more authority who disregards that experience. I had recently asked my partner, my husband, Drew, I asked him what my Worst nightmare was if he had to build a scenario where like had to build my worst nightmare What would it be? And he said put you in a situation where there's authority figures who will not listen to you and that bonkers. It's interesting now as a parent. My kid is 16 and is in that middle end, they're still a kid, but they're thinking they're an adult. They're trying to find their way. They're working through all of the awful stuff that happens when you're 16 years old, that in the grand scheme of thing is not awful. But at the time there's so many emotions and hormones running around that everything feels like the end of the world. How I'm showing up to help them is, speaking parents, very different than the relationship I think we had with our parents being that older generation. It might not be the same for you based on the amount of input you got in yours, but I think a lot of like, the baby boomers, I'm an elder millennial, it was very top down, and more helicopter y kind of versus telling me what to do and protecting me and bubble wrapping me versus being that resource to come to, I tried to be that resource for Lou to come to when they need help, when they need guidance to help them, but also I don't want them to be bubble wrapped. Easier to fail fast and fail early. It's a kind of a theme actually for me I'd rather take chances in and do things up front and test the waters and then get a better understanding of the situation and then move on than play it safe over the long term, but then when you do fail you fail big.

Danu Poyner: 23:55

I'm curious if you have an example of the not bubble wrapping the kids in practice, because often we have these intentions intellectually that we understand something and then when it actually happens, it's like, Oh, is this the moment when I do that? And, uh,

Kendra Fee-McNulty: 24:10

absolutely. There are many times where my instinct absolutely is to take out the bubble wrap and wrap up. But in friend situations or like social drama, Lou and I, because I had her relatively young, we grew up together a little bit too. So they'll come to me. And ask advice, and, rather than input my opinion on things. I just ask questions to get them thinking about things, a great example recently, so Lou's learning to drive and we get particular amount of snow and it was particularly slippery and so I took them specifically to a parking lot and told them to gun it and turn the wheel and slide it, like it was a safe area, it was wide open, but to get that feeling of what it's like to lose traction and control of the vehicle so that when that moment comes they can Get a gauge and sense of it later.

Danu Poyner: 25:03

I want to talk about your superpower you mentioned, which I think you call emotional chameleon. Can you tell me a bit more about that? When did you recognize that as a superpower and give it a name?

Kendra Fee-McNulty: 25:14

Yeah, I don't think I actually recognized it as a superpower until Much into my marketing career. I think it had a lot do with why I ended up choosing communications as the final thing that I settled on because, like many people, when I went into higher education I started in biotechnology, loved math, loved science, loved learning about it. Genetics at that time in the early aughts was so cool. I wanted to cure cancer. I wanted to do all of these things. But when I got the opportunity to do an undergrad lab, sitting and doing the pipette motion of back and forth all day alone, taking meticulous notes didn't fit Who I was and so I kept looking. I was fortunate to be at a university on a quarter system. So our semesters our quarters were only 10 weeks at a time So we three them in a year rather than two semesters and so I was able to move pretty quickly. So the first year was one program, then I switched to biomedical photography, still sciences, there's still that beat, but then there's this photo aspect, which I always grew up with, being in Kodak town. My dad worked for Kodak. I had a camera. earlier than most probably. And I'm like, okay, there's this blend. That's great. I don't really want to take the pictures though. It's the creativity and the ideas. So then I moved into visual media, which is kind of graphic design and a starting point for like art direction and that life path and then as an elective I took a communications class and a marketing class and immediately fell in love and I think it was again that analogy of oh You know the two ways of communications that you're sending something out there, but also being received like it just clicked, how you say things how you do things public speaking became a larger part of what I did at that time, and then realizing and having that time to practice to do it, you realize, oh, this is easier and I enjoy this. I think that's where I realized it was this like superpower. The phrase I like to use is like my empathy sandbox. Particularly in marketing or even having a conversation with someone, it's being able to literally take my ego, put it aside, and figuratively put on the shoes of the other person and play around in that space. What are their thoughts, what are their fears, what are they worried about, what are they thinking about, what barriers are they going to have to the things that I am trying to communicate, so then we can work through together. I'm huge into dnd have a ton of dnd friends. We play Online we play in person and one of my favorite things about it both as a dungeon master who's running a game or as player who has a character is that empathy sandbox. that character development of what would they do in this moment? That's, again, another reason why I probably realized that it's something that I enjoy.

Danu Poyner: 28:14

We're definitely coming back to the Dungeons and Dragon stuff, later on, now that you've brought that in, and thank you for making my job much easier because normally it's around this time I ask people, was the thing that you're doing your plan A? And it almost never is. I think it has been like twice ever on the podcast. So thank you for laying it out. So biotech, then biomedical photography, visual media, and then eventually into communications, like one of those word puzzles where you just change One letter each time and you get to where you want to get. I'm curious, did you have a plan A at the beginning?

Kendra Fee-McNulty: 28:49

Oh, yes. I wanted to use genetics to cure some disease. I don't know quite where it came from. There wasn't a particular personal connection I had to any particular disease. It was more that the idea of biotechnology, of genetics, gene therapy was so new, and theree were so many opportunities for applications to use it unique ways that really fascinated me, and still fascinate me to this day. MRNA vaccines are so cool because of how they use your own body's mechanisms in order to work. There's so many different ways in which it could be used that I found really, really interesting. I think that when you're young, especially when you're 18 and that ability to step into and be like, you can do or be anything. What do you want to do or be? That question is so huge. And I don't know if we fully understand it at that age. There was no real reason or rhyme for it that I can remember other than that sounds cool and I want to do it. And then the next thing was cool. and I wanted to do it. And then the next thing, and I think that's true for a lot of us.

Danu Poyner: 30:00

think that's how most of us actually live our lives.There's a lot of pressure that gets put on that decision to choose a thing, or to be a thing, or to have a specialization. And it can be overwhelming because there's so much choice, but also there's so much riding on that choice that it can be something we back away from or struggle with. So much nicer to just follow your interests and it's interesting how even when you start over here, there is a kind of natural gravitational pull that will bring you over to where you want to be. I'm curious with the discovery of communications, what was the, Oh, this is for me moment of that. And then what happened next?

Kendra Fee-McNulty: 30:43

Yeah, so as a result of me taking a lot of different paths, I had to fill in a lot. So I took some classes at the local community college and I took a public speaking class with Eileen Benz, who's still a mentor of mine to this day many years later. I think it finally really clicked how much I enjoyed it how much at the prep, the thought, doing the thing. So the whole structure of the class we had to do a Informative speech, we had to do a persuasive speech. It's very loosely based on Toastmasters international and was so fun, especially the fact that it is literally ranked the number one fear for humans. Death is second. That fear is so deeply embedded in us as people but that idea of Being able to get up in front of someone and use my communication because it's not just my words. It's your body language. It's your vocal variety. It's how you're moving across the stage. It's the pauses, and it's the lack of words streaming out of my mouth at the rate that they usually do that really can change and affect people and them think differently. I think storytelling, particularly in speaking, is so powerful, things like TED Talks are so powerful because it's innate to who we are as humans. I think that something unique about that ability to connect with people by speaking to them, and it also creates an opportunity to make a bigger impact, albeit maybe a small little ripple in a room.

Danu Poyner: 32:22

So, did you have that fear of public speaking initially, or were you like, ah, this is my pool, I'm jumping in?

Kendra Fee-McNulty: 32:30

Think absolutely I was afraid of public speaking I know I was afraid of impromptu speaking. One of the things that I struggled with for a really long time growing in to early adulthood small talk. not only is it sometimes the worst questions because people ask like what do you do for a living, boring. That small talk that impromptu where Someone asks you a question and you put your finger up, it's like, hold on just one minute, and then you run away and go think about it and write it down and then come back and have that quip. That's why so many of us, I think, are engaging in conversations and then three days later you're darn it, should have or I say this, or why did I say that? That is so hard. And so when I got into public speaking, A, it wasn't that. I was able to take that time to really think about it and craft the message and practice and all of those things. But when I got out of the public speaking class and then eventually did get into Toastmasters, it created a space for me to practice. The way that the classic Toastmasters meeting lays out is there's three main parts. There's the prepared speeches, then there's the feedback. So those people who just gave. prepared get immediate feedback from fellow Toastmasters two to three mini speech which is impromptu in couple minutes and then there's a whole impromptu section called table topics, where it's literally a welcoming warm space full like minded people who are trying to practice that level of communication and because it creates that culture of self improvement, it's a safe space to fail fast. something new and see if it works or get rid of that, evolutionary biological guilt or worry around alienating yourself and practicing and getting better because communication absolutely 100 percent is a skill and you can learn and you can grow and you can improve upon. It's a muscle that can be, you know, go to the gym and work and when you're in an environment like the gym that is accepting and helping you out and You're seeing that culture of positive feedback and growth. I think those kinds of cultures Will supercharge whatever it is that you're trying to do. That feedback section is so important too, where you not only spend all this time preparing a speech, there's an importance placed on getting immediate feedback so that you can learn and grow. And not only that, there's importance placed on giving good feedback. In all of those people who are giving that feedback, there's methods and they're practicing and they're learning how to give feedback to help someone improve. When you create an environment where you want people to improve and you think people are capable of, high marks, people will rise to meet that occasion.

Danu Poyner: 35:30

I've dabbled a little bit with Toastmaster. I've dabbled a bit with far too many things, but I really enjoyed that experience and found the immediacy of it that you mentioned is actually one of the things that's most powerful about it because it takes the thing that is the source of the fear and also the source of the practice that you need to build the muscle and builds it right in. So getting the feedback and having to listen to people critique your thing straight away, but also you're listening to other people's speeches and that process of giving feedback as well, it takes away some of that fear. You can fail fast and safely, as you say. That seems to be an instinct of yours, like with the parenting example that we mentioned, to deal with the uncertainty and the fear there of the non bubble wrapping by proactively systematizing that and creating a space where that can happen safely, and Toastmasters, and also D& D, I suspect, is a bit like this, because you doing impromptu storytelling, but there's a system behind it, and it's all playful and improvisational.

Kendra Fee-McNulty: 36:35

I never thought about it that way for D& D, but that's totally true. So for those who aren't familiar, there's the DM, the Dungeon Master, but it's basically the person who's running the game. So there's an adventure, or there's a story that you want to tell, or whatever, there's pre made books, there's homebrews, there's the internet, there's ChatGBT in some cases, where you can build a story and you have players. who create their own characters and they're living in your world. So as a DM, you're world building essentially and story building and putting these people in the sandbox of that world and that story and letting them poke around and there's a million different other podcasts and YouTube channels about how to do that really, really well. One of my favorite things about it is you can be the most prepared you ever could for your session. So you have a session, you know what your players are trying to do. They're going through this thing and they're going to go here and they're going to do this. And I guarantee you they will throw you a curveball that you did not expect. They will think of some crazy way to get through a situation, or they will go far away from where you thought that the path that they were going to go on, and in that moment you have to just react to it. Okay, what's going to happen, what are you doing? D& D is similar to sketch comedy, it's a yes and, like you don't want to yuck someone's yum. If they're having fun and want to do, okay, well, let's find a way to make that fun. And if it's Going a little off the rails. You can bring it back, but there's a improv kind element to it. I think it's a good allegory for life in a certain case, because you can be as prepared for the moment as you can be, but something may go off the rails. And so it's always good to be able to think quickly and react and act based on that feedback.

Danu Poyner: 38:27

I haven't played D& D myself, but I'm always adjacent to that world, and I'm sure I'll get pulled into it eventually. Mentioned I dabbled in Toastmasters, but you have gone quite a long way in Toastmasters, I think, and risen to a reasonably high level. Would you like to talk about that?

Kendra Fee-McNulty: 38:45

Yeah, it was some time ago. I'm actually just dabbling and getting back into it after a long hiatus, but, yeah, there was a particular club, my home club, that we were very involved. It was a great community. And so in Toastmasters, one of the things that's a part of it is contest season. It's changed over the years, but for evaluations there's a contest,, there's humorous speeches there's a contest. But the big Mamma is the international they call it. It's a persuasive speech. It's five to seven minutes, so it's not the longest speech in the world but it's supposed to be inspirational. It's supposed to have a message. to make you think. supposed to be persuasive, and a number of these things. If you ever hear about the world championship of public speaking that happens once a year at the Toastmasters International Conference, that is what That speech is, it's all leading up to this international speech. I got two steps away from competition. So very close. But so many wonderful things and wonderful speeches that I've heard. So mine was, and I want date it because it was before Simon Sinek. wrote his book, but it was essentially about the infinite game the finite game. So there's two types of games, right? And most sports and games are like baseball and hockey and there's winners and there's There's a defined moment and at the end of that moment you tally up the score and see whose team beat the other team or who scored higher than the other or whatever the case may be, versus the infinite game is opposed to baseball where there's that scoring and finite amount of time playing catch with someone was an infinite game. There is no winners or losers when playing catch, you're doing it with a partner for the sake of the thing. If I, Took my ball and threw it as hard as I could over someone's head and say haha. I won like That would make no sense. That's not how you ebb and you flow and you change how you're playing the game in order to Continue the game. I if I'm playing with my nephew, I'm throwing it a little lighter I'm doing it underhanded. I'm aiming it towards his mitt, Versus if I'm playing with a friend of mine who plays softball or I'm playing ultimate frisbee and we're Warming up, kind changing your behavior work with people who are game with Because ultimately there are no winners losers in game. You're playing for the sake of the game. You're playing the continuation of the game. And so mine included a story from my childhood where I had, a friend of friend who had a congenital birth defect. He didn't have an arm. And so there was a little bit of a personal story involved there and how that worked and the misconceptions around making assumptions for the other people. So there was a couple different elements in it, but ultimately it was about, What team do you want to be on? There aren't really teams, so are you in this game called life, playing infinite game? Or are you losers? And you rather be in?

Danu Poyner: 42:06

like that. And I guess this is a nice segue to talking about the Infinite and the finite game of marketing and communications is Where we were at in your personal story was you had discovered Marketing Communications, and then I'm interested to hear about the finite game, the LinkedIn story, how did you win at marketing and what were the career steps you went through. But then I'm also interested to hear about the infinite game of marketing and communication as a practice that you do to keep doing it and what that means to you and those two stories together.

Kendra Fee-McNulty: 42:41

I love the way that, that question was framed. yeah, winning at marketing. No, there's a lot of losing too, but I think that's part of it. So during my time when I was a photo major in college, I started working for portrait studio on the side. Facebook was just becoming kind of a thing, Facebook ads were brand new, the timeline was released. So I grew up in marketing trying those things out. It was the wild west of digital marketing at that point where trying to increase people, engaging with a brand, a non person on the internet was relatively new We had the great fortune of being a portrait studio. We had a lot of cute pictures of kids, so it made it a little bit easier. One of the first things I did though, was the DIY blog. implementing a DIY blog, using photos as the basis of that was a way to create that pathway in to people finding out about the project studio. I was able to play around as part of my job, seeing what would work, because it was all so new. I then started working at a very small boutique marketing agency. There's literally three of us, and then we would hire and work with other people but very focused on small, mid size, little baby businesses, a lot of dentists, those kinds of things. But it gave you a real appreciation for, are the important things that you have to be focusing on because for small businesses, for startups and nonprofits, which also became my area where I like to play, you don't have infinite multimillion dollar budgets. You don't have the luxury of time. So where do you place that emphasis? What are the things that give you the biggest bang for your buck, that 2080 principle? And that's where, from an infinite game standpoint, is still to this day where I think my sweet spot is of being able to look at all the different ways that you can do a thing and what's going to give you the most impact to make the most impact.

Danu Poyner: 44:48

Yeah, that art of making a little go a long way is really important and valuable. Around that time in the mid aughts, our, I'm Australian, and our national public broadcaster, the ABC, was always having its budget cut by every government that came in, and so it was having to do a lot with a little, and they did some of the most innovative things in digital marketing at that time because they were running on the smell of an oily rag. It's a much appreciated skill, I think.

Kendra Fee-McNulty: 45:18

I think there's a certain level of creativity that comes from scarcity when it comes to communication or marketing or online, and there's probably an infinite number of areas, but when you only have bubblegum shoestring and you need to make something work, you're gonna MacGyver the crap of it.

Danu Poyner: 45:38

I was waiting for you to say MacGyver. I'm like, is this going to be a MacGyver reference? You have said so many luminous phrases already today. You like naming things. We've had the Pygmalion effect and spotlight syndrome and the empathy sandbox and the emotional chameleon. You have a very obvious affinity. for language, I think. And there's a playfulness in the precision of finding these luminous phrases and metaphors. And metaphors are important because they stake out the right linguistic territory to match the emotion of the underlying message that wants to be communicated. Where does that love of language come from?

Kendra Fee-McNulty: 46:20

I was definitely an early reader. I can thank very clearly the Animorphs book series for that love of reading. I was a big sci fi fan because of my dad. He and I would watch Star Trek when I was little and then got into the whole universe there, but I think reading actually helped with that a lot. The one clear memory that I don't think I thought about for maybe a decade now was my mom got this like super old laptop in the late nineties. Think brick, like think pad. That was like a college course book and had the little nubby and like Had internet I think but barely, but I'd had no way to access that internet at that time But I had it and I remember staying up late and like writing stories on it in my bed. But the glow of the screen in the middle of the night while I'm making these god awful, I'm sure, stories. So I think that there's always been like a relationship for me reading and language and storytelling.

Danu Poyner: 47:20

I'm always really interested when I hear people name things, because to me, it represents hard won clarity of what you're talking about. Once you have had the time and you've approached it from all angles, you hit upon this name for something. Like, ah, that fires all of these associations. And it's like, okay, I'll put that in my bag of tricks to pull later. And you have a lot of those, I think, you're like a collector of names.

Kendra Fee-McNulty: 47:44

I do enjoy them. There's power in a name. That's Patrick Rothfuss, right? To pull another nerdy reference of the power of'The Name Of The Wind', the power in name, But I think that's probably too why I have such a love for branding when comes to marketing. Like being able to kind of to company and get to the heart of it and getting those phrases, those words, those things that really speak to what they are or what they're trying to accomplish. I think that's super fun.

Danu Poyner: 48:14

On that note Can we talk a little bit about the ick factor of marketing? Because I suspect for a lot of people, marketing like sales is something that is in the devil's toolbox. And it's not something that sounds fun. You have a very playful and emotionally resonant way of talking about these things that you're working with, with nonprofits and things, as you've mentioned, but I'm curious, can you talk a little bit to the ick factor of marketing?

Kendra Fee-McNulty: 48:41

Oh, yes, because I deal with it every day. I feel ick when I'm the recipient of, I'll say, bad marketing. I think marketing gets a bad rap because of two things. One, it's that it is the sibling, we'll say, to sales where ultimately, marketing is thought of as this entity, this business is trying to get me to buy something, it's trying to get me to do something, it's trying to change my life, change my habits, For better or for worse, but mostly for better for them because ultimately I will pay them money and they become rich and their shareholders will be happy and Capitalism will survive another day. That idea that marketers are the snake oil salesman of today that we're trying to manipulate people to want to buy the thing or I think there's part of it is that manipulation of the culture. You the coolest, so you have AirPods and an iPhone and because they're so much better and you're cooler when you have them, there's that kind of affinity culture piece to it. Also, and this is probably the part that bothers me the most, it's the commercialization of creativity to a certain extent, too, and commercialization of communication, There's a definite end goal in mind. Marketing is a means to that end, and when you see bad marketing, it just drives you freaking nuts.

Danu Poyner: 50:02

What's bad marketing? Give me an example.

Kendra Fee-McNulty: 50:04

Ads that Pop up on my solitaire that are not the game when you download them. And it's all ultimately to use your data because no one reads the terms service and anything, people who are trying too hard to seem and feel a feeling that's so obvious that they don't feel. So there's that inauthenticity to it, whereas there's so much clever marketing too. Literally, the Super Bowl is my Super Bowl, because, for better or for worse, the most money and creative power goes into those 30 second ads, because they're worth so much. There are opportunities in marketing and communications to be really creative, to really connect with people. So when done poorly, that connection feels false and trite. I think that there are opportunities in marketing change behaviors and change people's minds that ultimately can absolutely be used for evil. all things, they're double edged swords, I think when people are faced with those things, they give definitely that ick factor.

Danu Poyner: 51:15

I think you're hitting upon something really important. You mentioned that the instrumental nature of the communication and marketing is part of what it is. It's you trying to get a message across to be received in a particular way, and it's for a purpose. It's for a goal. And so I wonder what the tension is with that authenticity piece in that. But also, is that Skill and that challenge part of the fun, because, as you were talking, I was thinking of the Toastmasters contests, where the fact that it's a contest and that it's persuasive, that's also instrumental, but it can be authentic and meaningful. So it's in there somewhere.

Kendra Fee-McNulty: 51:55

Definitely. I think you're absolutely right I think part of the fun at least is in the challenge in a lot of ways of Trying to think about it and trying to make it work. I have had the fortune of working with a lot of great organizations and individuals that are very purpose driven. In fact, now that's pretty much the root of my client base, people who are mission driven organizations. And so there is a means that I'm trying to accomplish, but luckily that means is good. So I'm trying to make a world and a better place just doing it through different kind of methodology than quitting my job and starting an NGO. So I definitely agree that there is that challenge and that makes it fun.

Danu Poyner: 52:37

You sort of alluded to the space that you are working in now. You were at the marketing agency with three of you. What happened after that? What caused you to move on? What was it like? What happened next?

Kendra Fee-McNulty: 52:49

Yeah, absolutely. So, I was at the relatively small marketing agency and really getting to go deep into all that strategy and branding and pieces that I love. That agency then was purchased by a larger one. we were folded into the mix. And part of our strategic advantage was that we were focused on Smaller businesses, not the big clients, but the little ones that make up 90% of the economy, at least in the us. And so we were able to niche ourselves within that larger agency as focusing on small to mid-sized businesses, nonprofits that don't have big budgets, startups that may not have funding yet or early stage. I think because of that kind of technical background that I had as well with biotech and my ability to understand and be interested and learn, I got this little happy niche of startups, particularly those that were tech based, a lot of tech companies. When I say tech, I don't just mean software as a service or big things like that, but water filtration or climate tech was one. Anything hard tech, anything that involves the making of a thing as well as like the soft tech of the software of the thing, think that was a place that was very interesting to me and it's a fun culture to working with some of these kinds of businesses where they have really big goals. They're just starting out. There's a lot of excitement and energy and you want to help them get there. A lot of entrepreneurs that I've worked with, they're starting these businesses because they have an idea to fix a problem that they've had and they want to fix that problem for other people. So that was a big part of it too.

Danu Poyner: 54:36

You were able to connect again with your love of biotech, it sounds like you did.

Kendra Fee-McNulty: 54:41

I think to a certain extent. I think it was more that love of understanding how the things worked, and understanding how it all comes together that allowed me to really dive in and understand a particular business or a particular product. Some of my favorite Clients and customers and organizations that I've worked with often were the ones that were really technical and had to be translated to be explained simply. That particular challenge that I really enjoyed. Another is those organizations that had a lot of different audiences that they were to communicate with. My most recent one comes to mind was a startup that had to talk to truckers versus environmentalists and versus government versus farmers, though there's such a different tack that you have to take with each of these audiences because What you tell one will not resonate the same way that it does with another.

Danu Poyner: 55:48

Do you have, top of mind, an example of one of your proudest, almost satisfying wins in that game?

Kendra Fee-McNulty: 55:58

One of the things that I had the most fun doing was, I had a mother client who was starting a business and she had problem where her daughter's thing kept falling between the crack between the wall and the bed. So the stuffy would fall crying wouldn't ensue, all of these things. So she created this product that basically was a wedge that went in that edge to stuff it. So it was seamless, stuff couldn't fall. Children were happy. No one woke up at 3 a. m. had this great idea. She wanted to kick-start it, do online store, Shark Tank video, she didn't know where to start or what to do or what was involved in order to get to that point B. So our little group helped guide her through that whole process of getting the branding and what the messaging would be that would really resonate and photos. And it was this whole wonderful little package. I think that it was so particularly memorable because of how near and dear it was to her, the near and dear problems that she was trying to solve just as an individual. I think it was near and dear to me. because of how many big ideas just start that way,

Danu Poyner: 57:11

what about the most successful one that presumably wasn't as much fun

Kendra Fee-McNulty: 57:16

There's definitely a lot of projects and clients that I've on over the years that were very successful, but probably less fun. I think it had a lot to do with The things that we were doing, more so than the things that we were working on. we had a bunch of different clients who were doing Google ads and digital marketing and all of that kind of stuff and we had a bunch of clients that were doing social media because at time those avenues were relatively affordable to be able to make a certain amount of impact. Since then the algorithm's tweaked and it's a little bit more difficult and the budgets are a lot higher now but we were able to get in the ground and try a bunch of things out. think that's another thing that I loved about those. kinds of projects, they were successful because were, had a platform that allowed us to try a bunch things all at once and whittle out the things that didn't work. We were able A B test a bunch of different ads, different images, different language, different landing pages, all of these things to test things out. And you immediately get that feedback again, what resonated with people, what Drove action. And so you're able to try a bunch of things, fail fast, find what worked and go with it. Being able to test your own assumptions in these ways of, I think this one is going to be. I think this one, I'm going to do this email and I'm going to A B test it with this email. I think this one is what will resonate and you learn from it. It's always like a gold star that you give yourself when right, but then also it's so much more valuable when you're wrong because then you can examine it, figure out why, and then be better for it.

Danu Poyner: 59:01

I like to think of it as you win or you learn, and sometimes you do a lot of learning, but it's, it's not actually a bad outcome there.

Kendra Fee-McNulty: 59:09

I like that. And I wish more people had that same sentiment and I wish that more people ultimately believed and understood that sentiment.

Danu Poyner: 59:23

I have a personal question for you, about the emotional chameleon thing, which is when you're used to being an emotional chameleon, and you're good at that, and your sandbox is about making use of that, and it's also where your economic value is based, how difficult is it to recognize and express the needs of your own authentic self versus the work self?

Kendra Fee-McNulty: 59:52

I think as I've gotten older, I've definitely learned to embrace that authentic self more as the mode that I'm going to do the best self work. I think it's becoming more widely understood and accepted as we're becoming a more inclusive world that I'm going to be the best work self if there are certain things about my authentic self that are taken care of. So one of those big things for me is I have ADHD. So understanding how my brain works and the scaffolding that I need to build around myself in order to function in environments or situations that may not be keen and built for that kind of level of thinking is something that I'm cognizant and acutely aware of going into certain situations. Everyone has that superpower where the thing about them that makes them unique, that makes them really good at what they do. Those are all because of those little things and the scaffolding that we've built around ourselves and in the things that we've learned and come through. I

Danu Poyner: 1:00:56

Would you like to talk a bit about the ADHD diagnosis and how that came about and how it's changed your self understanding, if at all?

Kendra Fee-McNulty: 1:01:07

Oh, absolutely. Like many women with ADHD, I was diagnosed later in life. I was diagnosed in college, after being put on academic suspension, for not being able to have structure and time management. And luckily I was in a school that recognizes it says, okay, you're having some struggles. That's okay. This is hard. And let's get you in this program that teaches you those skills to study and manage your time and all of those things. I can't tell you the number of times, on my report card as a kid, there was the has so much potential if only she applied herself, But being gifted, I was put in the gifted kid program because it was so obvious that I was bored and I wasn't handing in my assignments and so they're like, we'll give you some extra stuff. But that was still because I think as women, we present the symptoms of ADHD so much differently where we're not necessarily the loud, obnoxious kid who's disrupting class. They're usually quiet or daydreaming or drawing or doodling. We're not a problem. So it's not being thought of as something that has to be addressed. So I was able to coast through. school and high school and higher education was where all of the skills that I didn't learn and all of those deficits that I had and specifically executive dysfunction were made apparent and that was when the spotlight like oh wait, this is like The red flag and the sirens were going off like there's something here that's Not right. So I was diagnosed in college, and I think that was a huge eye opener for me, okay, my brain works a little differently. I have to do these certain things in order to work. It wasn't, I think, until COVID actually, that I really got into the why of it all, and got interested into what is it about my brain that works differently? What is it about my brain that makes me special, makes things easier? What is it about my brain that I have challenges with? Why are these things the way they are? So then I think I got a lot of those questions answered around the executive dysfunction, how focus works, how important writing things down is for someone with ADHD or people in general, but there are these things and looking at myself and seeing them and great it is. Because of all these things, I'm able to pattern recognize like a champ. It annoys the people I watch shows with or movies, I'm like boop a doop, okay, it's that. Like all of these random things and I draw the line, but it's also challenging because I have to have lots of alarms and be reminded. Or I like to use things like AI transcription so that I can be focused on the conversation rather than trying to make sure that I capture all the things. Because if the things don't get written down, if I can't take the important things and put them in another place, my brain is like a RAM drive of memory. And as soon as the My brain is an Etch A Sketch, it eventually gets jostled around and I get distracted by a squirrel and then I will forget the thing that I was working on. Relatively recently, I've also found community. I think a lot more people are realizing that their symptoms are actually symptoms and not just who they are. It's such a huge relief, I think, for people, and myself particularly, to realize That, oh wait, you do that too? That's not just me? Like, I'm not failing as a human because I can't remember a date? That's so cathartic to feel when your entire life you felt like there was a deficit you. Being able to find a community people who are like minded like that, where you can bounce things off of each other, you can find Things that work for you and might work for another. We talk a little bit about the ick and the downfall of things like social media, but I think that's one of the benefits of it is you're able to find those communities of like minded people who you can relate to and it helps, I think, to heal those deficits that people have within themselves where, oh, it's the thing, it's not me.

Danu Poyner: 1:05:29

Yeah, thank you for sharing that. I'm sure there are a lot of people listening who will relate to that very strongly. You seem like someone who is really taking a proactive approach to managing things and organizing your life in a way that works with the way your brain wants to work. And that that works! Not without its challenges, perhaps.

Kendra Fee-McNulty: 1:05:49

I'd say 40 60 it works, you do the things that You think will work, whether or not they do. Think that's true for anybody though and anything that people are struggling with. You do the best things you can to set yourself up for success and you either win or you learn.

Danu Poyner: 1:06:07

Yeah, well said. So You are now starting your own venture, Ravelo. I would like to hear about that and the reasons that have led you to make that decision, versus the other paths that were available to you in your marketing career and what it's about and what you're hoping to do.

Kendra Fee-McNulty: 1:06:33

Yeah, so Ravelo and company is A marketing communications firm. We work with mission driven organizations, people in organizations to find their voice and share their story. So, really honing in on how people about themselves as a or as how you're representing but how you're sharing that story so that can go a number of different ways depending on Whether it's an individual and they want to share their story and they're working on they some help public speaking. So my biggest focus lot of is those startups who are starting out and need extra help. One client that I consult with has an idea and there's a lot of different applications for this idea. It uses AI and facial recognition and there's all this other stuff, but there's so many different applications that could be used for. But you can't be everything to everyone. So again, going back to being really concise, picking one and really focusing in on that niche is the hardest thing for a lot of people in a lot of organizations too, myself included. started Ravelo and as I'm talking about it right now, you want to be able to say you do all the things cause you don't want to, for lack of a better term, leave money on table. I do this and this and this and this, and I can help you do this. And I help people do this and nonprofits and startups and blah, blah, blah. It's so hard to say I do this thing for these people. That positioning statement is so challenging and it's especially challenging to do it alone. That's why the headline of my website says, this sentence took six months to write. Even as an established business who understands your product, you understand your market, you understand all of those things, you know how to talk about your thing, but because you have the language for it doesn't mean that the other person understands your language So being able to speak to people and meet people where they are, a big I think, to the types of problems that to help solve.

Danu Poyner: 1:08:39

What do you say to someone who says, Oh, our audience is everyone. Cause you know, but they don't know, or they're not ready to accept the truth that you've just outlined yet. So how do you bring them to that?

Kendra Fee-McNulty: 1:08:55

It usuallyycomes down to budget. Someone who has I can be everything to everyone, that's fantastic if you want to be everything everyone. In my head, you'll fail at doing that because you can't be everything to everyone as a human, as a business you either, in many cases. However, with that type of question, usually it comes down to the practicalities of what you want to be everything to everyone, but can you at this time. Maybe you can be one day, you can be a conglomerate like GE that can literally be everything to everyone at some stage or another, but it's going to take time to get to that point. And usually the biggest constraint besides time is budget and okay. But this is the easiest way to reach these people right now. So, why don't we focus on these people or this audience is gonna be the biggest drivers. In my previous company, one of the audiences that we really focused on early were farmers because they were a target audience for the product, but they also produced the fuel that we used to drive the engine. So, knowing that it's something that they want, it's helps their own business grow because it helps and creates demand for their product. It's an easier sell. It's beneficial for them. So it creates an advocacy group that then can go tell all of their friends about how great my widget is. Finding those people that can then share your story,, I think is huge. let's start here, Let's start small, let's refine how we talk about us, and then let's find those people that will beat the drum for us in absence and really help spread that message.

Danu Poyner: 1:10:41

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. You're not even saying, you can't be everything to everyone, but there's like can't do it all yet because there's time and there's budget, so why don't we start with what you said right back at the beginning about making the little go the longest way, like why don't we start there and then see what happens.

Kendra Fee-McNulty: 1:10:58

Speaking of words that I enjoy so much,'yet' is one a speech that I want to write been sitting on the back while. But, the power of that word is apparent and you framed it wonderfully is saying, I am not the strongest person in my household I yet. I am not good swimming yet. You have not played D& D yet.

Danu Poyner: 1:11:25

What is your biggest yet, right now?

Kendra Fee-McNulty: 1:11:27

My biggest

Danu Poyner: 1:11:28

yet.

Kendra Fee-McNulty: 1:11:29

I cannot retire yet.

Danu Poyner: 1:11:31

Ha ha ha ha.

Kendra Fee-McNulty: 1:11:34

A silly yet is I'm not a good watercolor painter yet.

Danu Poyner: 1:11:38

Oh. Why is that silly?

Kendra Fee-McNulty: 1:11:40

I'm not good at making time for my little hobbies that just are fun, yet.

Danu Poyner: 1:11:48

I like that. And it doesn't have to be a big, profound, single thing, because that's how we started this conversation. We often put too much emphasis on those big, single, profound things, and actually, it is the little things, and following all the little things one at a time, and then the connections between them that makes the big, profound thing, and then you have a name, and you go, boom, and that's the clarity. we like language and naming things, I want to ask you about the term grokkist and what does the term grokkist mean to you and is it something that resonates with you?

Kendra Fee-McNulty: 1:12:20

The term resonates with me. you did a great job of framing it two great words, curiosity and care. I think the idea of being ever curious comes in a lot different forms, both in, I'm curious if I'm good at watercolor, so I'm going to take some time to learn how to do that, or I'm curious about how my brain works, or I'm curious about XYZ thing, and so I want to look into it. I think one of my favorite things, and probably comes from all of those things that I mentioned earlier was I'm very curious about people. one of my favorite things to do is to meet new people, to sit down have a conversations and learn everything about them and see those threads and patterns that they have in their own lives. Also part of the things that I like about my job is meeting people and threads that led them to the venture that they're in now or the history of the organization, and how it got to where they are and where they want to go. That is so fun. To be curious is to constantly know that you are a yet. That you are continually improving and growing that growth mindset, that smushy, organ in our heads is. totally malleable and if you stop paying attention to it and stop being curious, it's a muscle that eventually will atrophy. When it comes to care, care comes in a couple different ways too, of having care for the people that you're curious about, having care for things that you care about, the understanding that comes from empathy sandbox, putting yourself in other people's shoes and understand that there's a constant room for growth and improvement. And when create a culture of growth and improvement, everyone grows and improves. Those two really resonate with me and how I relate to it, that having the ability to connect with people who are of like curiosity, who are curious in things that I maybe haven't been yet, and so therefore now I want to know more. but also people to share in that sandbox of thinking and having opportunities for connection go beyond 15 second clips, of being able to have conversations with people and explore things in a way that is armor off, having those real connections. People are starved a little bit, I think, of that authentic, real, deep connection.

Danu Poyner: 1:14:54

Thank you. Those are very kind words and I'm glad if it's resonating with you in that way. You've talked about your sentence taking six months. So far mine's taking two years and I still dunno what it means, but figuring out what it means is half the fun,

Kendra Fee-McNulty: 1:15:09

I think, too, one of the benefits of it and again, one of my things when trying find out other people's sentences is it means different things to different people. When you can have resonate, it meets people where they are, that's such a powerful thing.

Danu Poyner: 1:15:25

Yeah, that connects what you talked about right at the beginning about the intersection where you're putting things out and you're needing to think about how they're being received. That's where we're meeting people where they are, I think. So that's a really nice thought. I'm curious, with Ravelo and company, what kinds of people you're hoping to meet. and connect with. In particular because of what you said about the way the world is changing and the way people are starved and fatigued of being sold to in lots of scenarios, what kinds of people are you hoping to meet and connect with with Ravelo and company?

Kendra Fee-McNulty: 1:16:04

that is way phrase that question. The type of mission driven organizations who are out to do something. It could be as grand as solving climate change. It could be as grand as I want to start a business that helps support my family. I don't belittle or compare those two missions on scale because they're equally as important, there has to be a heart behind it for me in order to do my job well. but also to want to do my job well. I think that's a big piece for me. There's been millions of marketing studies that can speak to specifics, but when there is a strong sense of mission, there's greater success, hands down. One of the biggest pieces of advice that I've learned so far in my time in the startup world is get the experts. Is having lots of people in your corner who are very good at what they do, to help guide you on the right path is one of the easiest ways to make sure that you are on the right path at all and not walking into the street or into the woods. I think being one of those people for an organization, Being able to be on someone's bench and cheer them on in the big game, as it may be, is definitely something that I'm looking for to connect with people. another is those organizations or individuals that are struggling for how to take this thing that's really complicated and boil it down in to an easy way to talk about it. You see this in particular with a lot of hard tech where they have a big complicated widget that has all of these physics involved in order to understand and explain how it works, but boiling that down in a way that makes sense and communicating that in a really strong way will make their impact go even further. When you're able To say something big really succinctly, I like to imagine it as a snowball actually. Like, when you have a lot of snow and you can pack it down and say it really succinctly, you can throw that a lot farther.

Danu Poyner: 1:18:17

if someone is listening to this and going, yes, that sounds like me and I would like to talk more about that, but I don't have resources or that sounds scary, on a, yes, it's nice to have all the experts, but how can I do that with time and budget? What should they do?

Kendra Fee-McNulty: 1:18:34

Reach outout and we can have a chat. There's different avenues and different pathways that we can at Ravelo kind of structure a relationship so that it makes the most sense for everyone involved. The Best place to get more information is my website, Raveloe. co. So R A V E L O E dot C O. is a good jumping off point, but ultimately just let's have a conversation.

Danu Poyner: 1:18:57

Yeah, absolutely. Everything good that's ever happened to me in my life has started with a conversation that didn't have an agenda. We will put all of those links in the show notes and make it easy for people to find you. After everything that we've talked about today and knowing what you know now, if you could go back And talk to young Kendra. Kendra who's hiking and learning about the Empathy Sandbox. What moment would you choose to go back to and what would you tell her?

Kendra Fee-McNulty: 1:19:27

Assuming I could do that and not affect where I am today, I think I would go back to high school, maybe it's because I'm a parent to a high schooler now, but I think it would be just keep going. And reminding them of the Spotlight Syndrome, no one cares about you as much as you care about you. So don't worry about them. I think that's something even as an adult is so hard to remember and unlearn about when you're a kid, is what other people think of you has no effect on who you are as an individual. And so just do your thing.

Danu Poyner: 1:20:07

I reckon I would have saved about seven or eight years off my particular timeline if I'd had advice from someone I was prepared to listen to. So that's a good one. The next question is even more difficult than that. It's the question I ask everyone who comes on the podcast, which is if you could give someone a life changing learning experience, what would it be and why?

Kendra Fee-McNulty: 1:20:28

it would be public speaking, that kind of crash course in anyone who has that fear about talking in public, impromptu speaking, all of those pieces being just comfortable doing it can just have such A great impact on someone's trajectory in their life. There's so many instances where you need to speak in front of people as much as it is having a conversation on a podcast or having a conversation with a person, being comfortable in that moment and being able to express yourself is a gift that a lot of people because they're afraid don't try to Learn so I think it's pretty valuable

Danu Poyner: 1:21:11

like that answer. I should have seen that answer coming. The most surprising answer I've ever had to that question was from an estate planner whose gift would be a near death experience, because of what it does when you go through that, it changes you. So it strikes me that the gift of public speaking is like a near death experience in some ways, because it's what people are afraid of the most. So thank you very much for that. It's a good answer. We didn't get a lot of time to talk about Eileen Benz, who you mentioned a couple of times, but it strikes me that some of what you are doing and what you're hoping to achieve would be to be like an Eileen Benz to others. I wondered if you wanted to say something about that in the time we have.

Kendra Fee-McNulty: 1:21:57

I didn't realize it until this moment, but I think you just hit the nail on the head. Trying to be able to speak without getting weepy. Um, I think that when you find out what your superpower is, when you find out, what that thing is that drives you, I call it my superpower. Kind of the red thread, like, what's that string that kind of holds it all together. Once you kind of really understand what that is, I think the natural inclination is to use it for the best possible good. Use it for good, not for evil. So I think you hit the nail on the head with Eileen. She used her superpower of being a wonderful teacher and a great communicator to open up this whole new world for me and why I think public speaking is so near and dear to my heart. And based on our conversation today, all of the different things throughout my squiggly story that kind of all thread together about getting good feedback, having people in your corner to help you grow, the benefit of succinct communication and how challenging that can be, around. words and the way we think about things, about being curious and understanding people, that the importance of that empathy and how we speak to other people because how people receive it is as important as what say. I think all of those kinds of things boiled down is I want to be able use them for as much good and make as much impact myself as I can. And I love the idea being able to do that through all of these great that I get the benefit and privilege to work with.

Danu Poyner: 1:23:34

I think that you're well on your way to that, and anyone who has the pleasure and the privilege of encountering you at this stage of your superpower journey will have the whole world opened to them of strategic narrative and communication for good. So, anyone, if that's you, I would strongly recommend you talk to Kendra. Thank you so much for making time to speak with me today. I really appreciate it. and good luck with your new venture.

Kendra Fee-McNulty: 1:24:03

Thank you. This was a lot of fun.