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Compass PD Podcast with Dr. Carrie Hepburn
Compass PD Podcast with Dr. Carrie Hepburn
Episode 71: Leading with Emotional Intelligence: Navigating Difficult Conversations in Education
Effective leadership requires more than just strategy—it demands emotional intelligence, resilience, and the ability to navigate difficult conversations. In this episode of the Compass PD Podcast, Dr. Stephanie Brenner is joined by licensed counselor Claire Weton to discuss how educational leaders can support their staff emotionally, manage workplace challenges, and build the confidence needed for tough discussions.
Join us as we explore:
🔹 How burnout is impacting educators and what leaders can do to help
🔹 Strategies for handling negative feedback & high-pressure environments
🔹 Techniques for leaders to recharge and protect their own emotional well-being
🔹 How to foster professional growth while addressing heightened sensitivity to feedback
Whether you’re an administrator, instructional coach, or teacher leader, this episode is filled with practical, real-world strategies to help you lead with empathy and confidence.
Hello and welcome to the Compass PD podcast, where we dive into evidence-based practices and research-driven strategies that empower educators and leaders to make a lasting impact. I'm Dr Stephanie Brenner, your host. I'm incredibly excited about today's guest, claire Welton. Hi Claire, hi Stephanie. Claire and I met in January of 2018 on the first night of our doctorate program. For the next two and a half years, we spent every Thursday night together and there were many times when she and our other cohort members felt more like family to me than my real family for those two and a half years. So, claire, can you tell us a little bit about yourself?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. So I started out in higher education back in 2012. And I was an admissions counselor, loved it and then really wanted to get on the other side and be more in the school, so moved back to St Louis. I was in schools for seven years as a school counselor and then about two and a half years ago I made the choice to go back on the clinical side of mental health. So after all that with our doctorates, I'm not using it necessarily in that realm, but yeah, so I'm a clinical mental health therapist Absolutely love it. I have two children, two girls, two and four. I will be married five years next month and my husband and I started a passion project called Love STL, which is a local gift boxing company that sources from all small local businesses here in St Louis. So that's what we do.
Speaker 1:There's just so much there. That is. That's wonderful and I love that your, your passion, kind of went full circle with your counseling, like not starting out in the school system but then joining the school system and then going back out into the private sector or clinical sector or side of what you call it. That's really awesome.
Speaker 2:Yeah, thank you. Yeah, it's been fun.
Speaker 1:You've been really busy since we graduated Very busy.
Speaker 2:Very busy. Yeah, Just you know, living a whole life in the past five years, Right?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm super excited to have you here today and for our listeners, we are exploring the emotional intelligence components. That and things that leaders need in order to have difficult conversations with the people that they're leading, and I know this is an area that resonates with a lot of people in the school system, and you don't necessarily even need to be an administrator to have difficult conversations and be able to navigate the emotional side of how to approach those types of conversations. Today, we are hoping that you will walk away with some knowledge that will provide confidence for you when you have to engage in really hard conversations. We're also hoping to shine a light on the emotional toll that working in education can have on people outside of the classroom. So let's dive in, claire, because I know that this is a really powerful, heavy topic that is impacting a lot of school systems. Yeah, what are some of the trends that you're observing in your practice when it comes to the emotional well-being of the people you serve, particularly educators?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's that word burnout, right, we're seeing that so much and I think because we're having a faster growing need with children, especially after the pandemic, right, so the teachers are having to mitigate the learning that didn't take place during that time or I shouldn't say didn't take place, but changed during that time and the emotional regression that happened with a lot of students and children, and so the demands are being put on these educators and they can't keep up, right, and then they're also having to wear so many different hats because there aren't a lot of educators out there, there are not enough people to be working, right, so you're going in, you're having to maybe sub during your plan period or something like that. So the amount of work is increasing, the time to do the work is decreasing, and so it's causing a lot of burnout, anxiety and stress.
Speaker 1:You hit the nail on the head. That is, I think, in my experience as a coach while I was still working in the school district, and now that I have the privilege still working in the school district, and now that I'm have the privilege of working with many school districts, that really just hit the nail on the head for a lot of things that are impact what I'm seeing in practice and um, it's having a toll on so many different parts of our education system that I think, as leaders, it's important for us to have the tools to be able to navigate this new reality that we're encountering.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that's really well said. It is a new reality.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So when it comes to giving feedback, I you know that that can be hard and a teacher? When a teacher receives negative feedback from a parent or even a peer, sometimes that happens how can a leader support them emotionally while still encouraging professional growth?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think a lot of the times when somebody goes to a leader for something you know you just need to vent, and sometimes leaders are trained or thought to like how can I problem solve? And so I think leaders being emotionally attuned to what's going on with the educators and the teachers in their buildings is going to be, first and foremost, a way to connect, a way for that person to feel like, okay, this person has my back. They might not fully understand, but they're listening and they understand the emotion that's going on right. Yeah, it's hard to have hard conversations. It's difficult because you're working with a multitude of different personalities and how people are going to react to those, and so I think connecting, first and foremost, every human needs that A leader can support a person or an educator, a teacher, emotionally by hearing them out and creating that safe space.
Speaker 2:You've got a lot of type A personalities right. So a lot of people pleasers are, you know, are technically sometimes that type A, so people want to walk on eggshells and be aware of what they're saying. So it's imperative that the leaders remind these teachers that it's important that they focus on their effort and not the outcome, because, as a people pleaser, as a type A, we really want to have great outcome. That's so important. But the thing about the outcome is it's not in our control and what's in our control is our effort. We can control that. So when you have a leader that can help guide an educator on, here's the effort you're putting in. Like we see that that's important to sometimes the outcome and it's so hard because education is so outcome driven. To make sure that you're focusing on that and I can. I think that can lead your educators to feel supported, heard and still guiding that change that needs to be done.
Speaker 1:So I heard you say like two big things that stood out to me, which were the well, I guess, three. I'm a note taker so I write out just listen in the moment, or if you're needing to problem solve with that and you don't want to jump in and try to problem solve a situation when they really just need you to listen.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And then and um and then. The other thing was making sure as the leader you have a really good connection with the people that you're you're leading and within your school system so you can stay attuned to kind of what's going on and how they are as a person so you can approach it that you know I could come to somebody. One person with like kid gloves is one of my colleagues calls it. I need to be really soft, versus I can take off my kid gloves and that's the best way to approach the other person. But you have to know that.
Speaker 2:That's exactly right and I think, like, even like I always say, I'm the same person, like as a therapist, I'm the same person, the same therapist, with every client, but my delivery is what changes, because the delivery is how you make that connection Right, and so I think remembering that can be really helpful.
Speaker 1:And then you also said the effort versus outcome, and that is I think that and we know education is outcome based. I think that and we know education is outcome-based, but a lot of the research to encourage teachers, when they're not getting positive feedback or the things that they really hope to be hearing, focusing on effort.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and I you know that tool right, that that's measurable for a lot of teachers too, of the effort, like they can be honest with themselves and like did I give this my all? Am I not seeing this right? So it can be an easy conversation to help guide and help those teachers and educators go towards their goal, but also have some tangible things to look back on.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's very true. And education. We know that this time of the school year, so the second semester, brings a lot of stress, and some of it is. We know we're in second semester, but people are looking to next year already and so it could be the planning, the new personnel also this time of year, plc expectations, the things that are going to be coming up to close the end of the year, like state testing and all of that kind of stuff happens how, which can be very overwhelming.
Speaker 1:how can leaders support their teachers in managing the pressure of this?
Speaker 2:I think one way that they can do that is asking them what they need and I know there's a lot of opportunities, but not just asking to check a box and say we're just checking in on our teachers. Look, we asked them what they need, but how do you actually provide that outcome? How do you give them that outlet then that they're asking for? So another way that can be really helpful is having, maybe, exchanging sub period times. You know, with some teachers flip-flopping time, so if this teacher needs extra time, maybe an internal sub happens so that other educator can get extra time to catch up on things. Making it a norm to help other people. Right, I think we can get really coveted of our own time and the things that we have to do, but the more that you give to others, the more they give back, and then you're both winning.
Speaker 2:Not being afraid of change. That's huge. I think a lot of people in education sometimes they fear change, even though they're in a growing thing that like a growing career that that needs that. We have a lot of advancements with technology good and bad, like I. I know that I saw some students writing paper right next to chat GPT the other day and I was like, oh no. So I know that those are providing challenges, but like using it for good to write like how can we use technology to help eliminate those time consuming tasks, as we see those memes? How can we turn meetings into emails, just small things like that that give people what they really need and that's the time to be able to do the tasks that are given, because so much is driven, we know, by the state, by federal, so we know that things have to get done, but how can we give the time needed to get those things done need?
Speaker 1:more time for PE. They need more time in the day, they need more. Like you, everybody needs more time is something, but I think what you said is about it how you they utilize the time, and so being flexible and purposeful with it is incredibly powerful, I think. Can I ask? I want to ask a clarifying question, please do. Yeah, I'm going to get this off the task, so, but not really, but whatever. So you mentioned that like ask them what they need but don't just like have them check a box or something. So is that does that look like? Really engage with them to have a serious conversation, like in person versus here, fill out this Google survey about what they need? Do we give them ideas Like here are some ideas that we have, you pick one, or do we leave it genuinely open to you? Tell me exactly what it is that you need.
Speaker 2:That's a good question. Going back to time, right, I think having those individual conversations with everyone would not be feasible, but maybe having your PLC leaders get together and come up with one or two things that they're seeing that they need, and then that leader goes and talks to the administrator on behalf of their PLC something like that, I think, could be really beneficial. And then, yes to your point like coming up with actual ways to get it done right. So we want to make sure that the administrator is not feeling overwhelmed with like okay, this is great, but like I don't have time to brainstorm how this is going to work. And they're also the educators, are the ones in the trenches, so they're going to be the ones that know and can see what really needs to be done to make it work.
Speaker 2:So I think, providing and maybe streamlining it that way and then providing actual ways to execute these new ideas and trying them I know it's scary because it's new, but you know they're the ones that out there on the battlefield and they're going to know like, ok, we can, we can try new things. We're dealing with new children, like post-pandemic children are different the way they learn. We're battling technology and having to fight for attention. With that, the ADHD comes with the attention. So you've got a lot of new battles, or at least they're heightened battles from the past, and so sometimes change is going to be what is needed in order to tackle these new things that you're seeing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and change itself adds a whole another level layer of stress and worry and anxiety for many people.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, it does.
Speaker 1:You said something that kind of really leads into this question. Already you mentioned if the leader themselves is capable or able in a place. So if a leader themselves finds they find themselves emotionally exhausted from constantly supporting others or constantly trying to do things that make it easier for other people, what are some healthy ways for them to recharge and to support themselves?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's needed, right, and that's a lot like you're getting a lot of people's complaints, thoughts. They're venting to you, so that's heavy to carry every day and some people might go home and like shut down, which isn't really great because you need to get that out. Some people might spew to their spouse, which also can be a lot on that relationship, and so when you think about that it's like, okay, well, what do I do, Right? So one is and I may be biased but getting a therapist or someone that is a trusted person that can hold space for the things that you need to process through. And I think that's a lot of it.
Speaker 2:Again, going back to time, there's not enough time to process. So the beauty about therapy is it does. You don't have to have a problem, Like something doesn't have to be wrong, you don't have to have a diagnosis to go. It can just be one hour where you get to like focus on you and have someone who is so attuned and into what you want to help you problem solve. So that, but maybe that's not your thing. So maybe it's just exercising to help release that dopamine to relieve um, relieve some anxiety, meditation, but those kinds of things, um, journaling. Maybe writing isn't your passion.
Speaker 2:I tell a lot of my clients to just get their voice memo app on their phone At least I know with an iPhone and you hit record when you're in your car and just spew it all out and it's kind of cool, Cause it tells you, like, where you're at. It can now, I think, like um, translate it tells you like where you're at. It can now, I think, like translate it for you so you can have it in words. But that could just be a cool way. If you're a verbal processor, Therapy is not your thing. You don't want to overload your spouse or your friends.
Speaker 2:And then the last thing I'll say it's kind of cheesy, but it's something we use again in therapy. It's called your container exercise. So you build this container in your mind and you just picture every stressor, everything that you have going into this container, and then you envision locking it, putting it away somewhere safe, know that you can access it when you need to. But it's a great visual representation of how you can then basically brain dump and put it elsewhere so it's not consuming your mind. So I know that was a lot, but hopefully some of those can be good resources.
Speaker 1:I love that, especially the container exercise. I'm sitting here thinking what can I put in my box? It's limitless, your box is limitless. Yeah, and I think that, even as a leader in the school system, helping educators balance work life yes, that is a big deal for a lot of people. Leaders teaching that strategy to their staff yeah, like at on your drive home or as you're walking out the door today, that mentally do those kinds of things to help put that stuff away. That's a wonderful strategy.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and if they're not comfortable I'll come into schools. I would love to teach that strategy at a, at a faculty meeting or just something like that. Yeah, and if they're not comfortable I'll come into schools. I would love to teach that strategy at a faculty meeting or just something like that. Yeah, it can be uncomfortable or odd if you're not familiar, but it's actually something we use. I use with adults all the time. That can be really beneficial.
Speaker 1:So thinking about more things that leaders can do to help solve the problems. What can leaders do to develop their own emotional resilience so that they can manage the challenges of leading a diverse group of educators?
Speaker 2:is learning to not take everything personally. That's so hard, it's so hard. But when you start to again be better at attuning to emotion and you can see the emotion coming out, you can start to say, okay, like, I'm picturing this, like even just this clear wall between me and the other person if they're coming in hot or they're coming in very emotional and you're like, hey, I am not a therapist, I don't know how to deal with tears and all of this. Like, how do I, how do I keep it together? Like, even just imagining that clear wall gives this idea, this protection of like, what they're doing, what it can affect me, so I can stay, like where I need to stay in order to deal with what's going on. So I think that's one way that can be really helpful Just practically being really clear and concise of your expectations, and not just what it sounds like and is clear to you, but maybe getting feedback before you make announcements or strategies of like.
Speaker 2:Does this make sense? It makes sense to of like. Does this make sense? It makes sense to me. But does it make sense that transparency is so key? Because I think a lot of times you know people when they don't know what's going on. Right, you get called into the principal's office as an adult. It's just as scary as when you get called in as a child and when you have no clue of what's going to happen. So again, being transparent, I know that maybe leaders are like oh, I don't want to tell them everything that's going on in this meeting right now, but just to give some idea so that that person can come in like a little less defensive, a little less anxious, being prepared of what they think is going to come together and actually feel like the leader is going to see some benefit in that too.
Speaker 1:That makes a lot of sense that it could help the leader. Eventually, the more transparent they are and the more feedback they get before they communicate about their communication, it almost could prevent things, so that they are taking in less because less is happening.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly, and I think, because you have such a diverse group of people, like you have to do what you can on the defense or on the offense, really to say okay, like I'm going to be preventative here in this area and make it easier for, obviously, the educators, but for myself as well, because that's overwhelming, to have to take all of that in, to have to take in all the emotion, the frustrations, and so for you to stay on a level that is still in attunement with them, it's important that that communication is as transparent as you can be in that moment to help alleviate, yeah again, those emotions that could be arising from those educators not knowing what's going on and might see some more productive conversations.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that, like what you just said about productive conversations, really leads into this next part, this next thing. I want to ask you. So some adults in the workplace can exhibit immaturity or have a heightened sensitivity to feedback. So how can leaders work with this? Like, how do they address that while maintaining professionalism? And then the other thing I'm thinking is what?
Speaker 2:strategies can leaders use when staff members seem easily offended by constructive feedback? Yeah, that's hard. There's a whole like there's a whole training in therapy to work with HSPs. Those are highly sensitive people, so it is a thing right To have these types of personalities, and so it's important that the leader, the one speaking to them, is really consistent and calm. Right, they're not going to cause this reactive thing.
Speaker 2:If somebody is sensitive, it doesn't necessarily mean that you're crying. It's sensitive, of like, sensitive to touch, right when you think of it that way. So it's, it's that sensitive, that sensitivity it doesn't mean that they're going to cry, but that that they could be really defensive, right. So knowing that as a leader too, that like, if you think you're dealing with somebody, it doesn't mean tears, it could be somebody who's going to be extremely defensive with you. So being that calm and consistent speech in that manner can help alleviate and help people put down their defenses, maybe feel calm if they are criers. Again, if it's not a logical conversation, it's emotional driven, and so we don't want to drive with emotion. So just knowing if it's not emotional, it's logical, if it's not logical, it's emotional. A big one, I think, with highly sensitive people, is to focus on the problem and not the person, because those highly sensitive people are going to think it's me. They're either going to defend themselves or they're going to think, oh, my gosh, it's me, me, me, right. And so when that leader can focus on the problem and the issue at hand and separate that from the person, then again that conversation is going to be heard and accepted, hopefully a little bit easier, of course, using those I statements. So I think a lot of us know that. But it's easy. You know, when you talk, oh, when you do this or you do this with a highly sensitive person, again defenses are going to go up, emotions might get high. So when they say, using those I statements are going to be really helpful, like I noticed this when this happens, like how can I help you with this, right. And then you know, ending on a positive note, it's like that sandwich, that positive sandwich, right, you want to be constructive in a way that's going to be helpful for them, but then always end it on a positive or how you're going to help them, right, because it can feel like, well, what am I going to do? How do I do this? You're telling me there's an issue and I don't really know how to tackle this on my own With all of that. Those are just some strategies.
Speaker 2:I think the big thing again goes back to transparency, like talking about it in faculty meetings, of like, we want to normalize having these conversations. We want to normalize that we're all on the same team. It is the problem against us, not us against each other. So when somebody you know talking about that, like when somebody's coming up with you with an idea or says, hey, have you tried this? Instead of getting defensive or emotional, you know, hmm, take a deep breath Okay, maybe I haven't thought about that and teaching that to be the norm in your school and talk about it. So it just becomes a thought that when somebody comes to you or has a conversation that might be hard, that you can learn how to put your defenses down or kind of turn the emotion down just a little bit so that again those conversations can be heard a little bit better.
Speaker 1:I think you gave yes, love that yes, and that could almost be like the mantra, you know, if I can see it being the opening to the conversation like, hey, we need to talk about something and I want you to remember that it's the problem against us, not us against each other, to just like, oh, this is going to be the kind of conversation where I need to be listening and know that the person is there for with good intent and to help me, not to attack me as a person. Yep, yeah, that's it. Yeah, oh, man, claire, you have given us so much information in this short amount of time. I really have taken four pages of notes.
Speaker 1:I thought it was helpful. There is so much, and what I really think that sticks out, to kind of quickly recap our time together, is that we, as leaders, being aware and in tune with the emotions of the people that are around us and having connections with people, is the best way to do that. Yeah, I also really am taking away that transparency is really really important so that we can eliminate or prevent some of those heightened situations or heightened emotions, because people know exactly what to expect. That's it.
Speaker 1:And things aren't hidden from them to cause anxiety. Everything's an open, honest relationship and that feels like it's probably the big thing is. Yeah, it I said earlier. Um, it reminds me of renee brown she talks about that. Being clear is being kind yes, yes, yeah. Honest is being kind with people and but learning how to be in tune with the emotions of others and recognizing that, yeah yeah, you gave us such good stuff to think about.
Speaker 2:Thank you. I'm so excited that we were able to chat.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I know that all of this information is really going to help a lot of other people in the education field, and even people not in education, but just them feeling confident and moving forward with their journey in education. Yeah, Awesome.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much for having me, Stephanie. I really appreciate it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so to our listeners, please feel free to share your thoughts or experiences, and we'd love to hear from you. If you found today's episode valuable, consider sharing it with a colleague who might also benefit from this message valuable. Consider sharing it with a colleague who might also benefit from this message. Thank you for joining us on the Compass PD podcast. Remember, at Compass PD, we believe that every educator has the power to inspire, change and transform student learning. Stay focused, stay inspired and keep making a difference.