Leading Through Kindness - Three Things with Ella d'Amato (NOTHS & True Global)

This month we sat down with Ella d'Amato, the dynamic Managing Director of True Global and former Not On The High Street CMO, for our Three Things podcast. Joining us to explain her unorthodox, and utterly brilliant, route to becoming a CEO, this wide-ranging conversation is one you really shouldn't miss. 

As a unique trifecta of VC, PE, and innovation, True is a truly special enterprise. But the real gold dust in this conversation is how Ella and her colleagues are able to balance their personal mantras with the company's values, and her stunning perspective on how they interact and synergise within the workplace and beyond. 

Tune in to discover more, as well as why Ella is so determined to lead through kindness, how the current economic situation could be a positive, and for her Three Things - three pearls of wisdom that you can implement in your business today.

Transcript

Ella: 0:00

when I went, to, I not on the High Street, and I sat in that Zach Cream, the first question I got asked was, are you from Oxford or cambridge? every time I've got these jobs, There's been enough people around me that have gone, she's gonna fail. That Jamie becomes an incredible motivator to not fail. Ultimately, I believe apart from setting a really clear vision and clear goals on what success looks like, the job of a CEO for me is to create an environment for the people around me to thrive If you hire brilliantly, whether that's for attitude or skill, and you've set that clear vision. If you are having to get hugely involved in the execution of what those people are doing, something is really wrong, Train your team to have difficult conversations. If you genuinely want a spirit of diversity and inclusion and you want different opinions, first teach them empathy.

Jamie: 1:12

hello, I'm Jamie Mitchell and welcome to together's three Things where I get to sit down with exceptional founders and CEOs to explore their extraordinary careers and ask for their three things, three pieces of actionable advice you can implement in your business today. And for this episode, I'm back in the studio at True. and. Before I introduce our guest, I have been passed over a better description of true, after my last attempt at explaining it. But instead, I think it's much more appropriate than it becomes my first question. welcome, to the Hot seat, Ella damato. Ella is the managing director and CMO here at True. fascinating career we're gonna ha hear all about. but before we crack into that, welcome, nice to see you. Apparently this is your first

Ella: 2:03

It is, it is. And I'm a chatterbox Jamie, so this is gonna be fun.

Jamie: 2:06

I have to say, I'm excited that it's your first podcast because it was also Adam Ballon first. Podcast last month. so it sort of goes, oh, right, all those people you've worked with over the past be going, oh, I'm gonna check in on this. And we get a few more followers. and actually for those of you who are new and those of you who aren't, please do follow, wherever you listen. It really does help us, continue to grow and, and, and build this podcast, which is good for altogether and everything we do there. End of my ad over to you. Do a better job of explaining True

Ella: 2:39

I actually think you did okay. To be fair. well thank you firstly for having me. I'm very grateful. true is an investment and in innovation firm and it's quite unique in the market. And I'll explain why. So there are three component parts of True. We have our private equity fund, which has assets under management of nearly a billion. Nearly a billion. Yes. so it's got quite large now. we are very lucky to have invested in some wonderful consumer businesses like the Twell Company, harsh, swift, rebel Bikes, sneak Energy. We also have here at True our venture capital fund. so that's more a business that are investing in seed up to Series A. So that might be a 200,000 pound check all the way up to 5 million. those businesses we've had are mined, we've got bleach, we've got mord, some are in Europe, some are in America, some are in the uk. There's

Jamie: 3:37

I, I, I looked on the website and the venture team have invested in what I can only describe as a go-to guide of sort of contemporary brand names. I mean, it's, one after another are some really fascinating businesses, fascinating brands, and it's this juxtaposition between venture and private equity that I find you're not the only player in town in that regard. I know the guys are active, also a private equity and they have their venture arm, but pretty unique because the skills are so different.

Ella: 4:05

Yeah. the skills are the skills are different and I think where we are different again, is our innovation arm. So I think we are known for our private equity division and our VC division, and we are. Growing our innovation. So our innovation department, I always call them, which gets me into trouble, but I'll say it anyway, like a cooler McKinsey, which I'm probably not allowed to say, but there

Jamie: 4:29

mean, as a

Ella: 4:30

McKinsey,

Jamie: 4:31

I, it's not hard.

Ella: 4:33

so they are a hot hodgepodge of wonderful, honestly, some of the cleverest people you will ever meet. They constantly astound me with what comes out of their brains, mixture of really amazing analysts to people that have been clients, agency side consultants. So a real mix of people. And they work for your John Lewis', your Marks and Spencer's, your Warner Brothers, your Warner's, the big corporates, helping them with their innovation in their businesses. So this dynamic actually is what makes true, very, very special, I think, because we've got the three component

Jamie: 5:04

What's the entire economy covered?

Ella: 5:06

Exactly. So when you step back and you think about it, You've got two entrepreneurial founders, Paul and Matt, that's set up true. they are the essence of what made true. True isn't something you write on a piece of paper and go, okay, we're gonna do VC p e and innovation and we're gonna somehow make all of these different things work. Culturally, it means you have to create an environment where all of those people thrive. Really difficult.

Jamie: 5:33

Having a cool building helps

Ella: 5:34

Yeah. The house is very special. Please visit True house

Jamie: 5:37

everybody. It is, you know, Soho House for True.

Ella: 5:41

Yeah. It's a place for the community and for our businesses to come and, and we can do things like this, right. We're very, very lucky to

Jamie: 5:46

and you have kindly hosted many an event for altogether. So,

Ella: 5:50

Yes. Long way that lasts. Like it's a, we, it is a luxury to have this space,

Jamie: 5:55

The innovation arm. Now th those relationships with big retailers And big consumer companies were always part of True's, special source as it were. I remember, I remember that from the very early days. and I guess it makes perfect sense. All the corporates, they, they, they're all sort of, how do I get a little bit of the magic of venture into my innovation? Is that mostly what's going on here? Is this a bit like, I don't know, the way founders factory works with corporates and, you know, are you connecting startups into the corporates or is this purely looking at corporates and. Giving them consulting advice on innovation

Ella: 6:31

It's a bit of both. So the firm sees roughly this flexes up and down year by year, around 3000 tech startups a year. That is a lot for the firm to see. Some of them are, we are seeing because they want investment in our VC arm. Some, we are actively going out and saying, you are doing something really interesting in ai or you are doing really interesting in social commerce, or you are doing something really interesting in how to stop shrinkage in companies. Right? So there's a bit of push and pull there

Jamie: 6:59

And, and having that, those relationships and that those, those companies in your ecosystem, is part of the value add then

Ella: 7:08

Yeah, and it kind of works for all right. So some of them we will go on to invest in from a VC perspective, some of them, there isn't an investment relationship, but we say, hang on a minute, we're gonna put you into the Cowell company, a company that's in our private equity fund. We're gonna test it, we're gonna see if it works and if it works, where they're gonna take you to a Marks and Spencer's or, so this ecosystem is really

Jamie: 7:32

I don't know how all of that gets priced and, and commercially done, but I love the concept and, and actually I, I suspect there's quite a lot of fluidity in the commercial side of because at its heart that that vision of the community, of people working together mm-hmm. Is, is, I know, very you have a, a dual Or at

Ella: 7:56

least you have, I think I have about 12 hats to be honest. And that's a wonderful thing. Yes.

Jamie: 8:01

is it 12 hats? Because if you look back over your career, you basically got every hat covered. So, you know, they, they, they're gone. Can you take this hat now and can you take this hat now? what, what is the main part of your day job?

Ella: 8:11

So the main part of my job as managing director is I sit on a couple of the private equity boards.

Jamie: 8:17

none of this venture capital board

Ella: 8:18

last. Yeah, It's on the PE side. And it is anything, the job is so varied. So it could be I'm hiring a chair, a ceo, I'm supporting the CEO with the strategy. If they're kind of wrestling with something that I've got some experience in. A lot of it is around people, strategy and then support ultimately. So we are very different in, well, not very different. There's lots of investors like this, but I think we take a lot of pride in, we're very value adds. We are there to be supportive and I know from prior experience being on the other side, if you do not have an aligned board and group of shareholders, it can be a huge chain basically for any business. So especially

Jamie: 9:02

times of crisis,

Ella: 9:04

Yeah, especially, especially. So don't, maybe you can come

Jamie: 9:07

back to He says, getting his notebook

Ella: 9:11

so, that's like one big part of my job. It means I'm constantly being introduced to amazing people, that might be looking for moves. So I always see myself now as a, I never thought the job would be like a recruiter, but there's definitely a massive part of talent looking after talent, nurturing that becoming in our community. How can we be helpful? So a core value. And you know, if you've met Matt or Paul. They're very helpful people genuinely, and therefore that kind of runs through the business. So we have a big kind of belief system of what you give, you get back. And so there's a lot of what we do actually that we might not ever, ever see anything for true. Or if we do it might be in three, five years time. But that has been something Matt and Paul have built the business on,

Jamie: 9:55

generosity is, is such an, is such a unique thing, in when it really genuinely comes from a, I don't know if this is commercially relevant.

Ella: 10:04

Yeah.

Jamie: 10:05

You know, it's, it's not that, oh, I've spotted the, I've spotted the way this is gonna benefit me personally. It starts from just that point of give your time, give your help lend people, your studio.

Ella: 10:16

Be helpful. Right? Like so Matt, if you ask Matt, Matt, also be helpful. My articulation of that is be kind like we as a group of leaders, I think we all. Are given the space to articulate the value that means the most to us. For me, it has always been, hopefully if you ever spoke to any of my prior colleagues, it's about kindness. you know, I remember someone once said to me, many, many years ago, I, I was maybe, or definitely still growing up, highly naive. And I was looking at this guy and he was fabulous. And I thought, why isn't he gone for that promotion? This is many, many years ago. And I remember saying to him, I was probably about 23, 24, like, why haven't you done that? and he just looked at me and he said, Della, when I die, I want my gravestone. Not to say I'm the best insight director in the world, I wanted to say that I was an amazing dad and an amazing father, and I live my life by that gravestone. And I, and at the time I was, you know, this is a long time ago, and I'm thinking, wow. And it has never left me. And for me, apart from obviously trying to be a good mom and a good wife and sister, daughter, friend, all of those things, I've lived my life. I want that to say she was kind. And when I met Matt and Paul, I was able to see, you know, we are all learning. And I'm not saying by any means, we all get this right. But I believe they'd give me the space to show that kindness. So that means I can be who I am at the board table. I don't have to pretend to be someone I'm not with the team here, you know, we all flex in our own styles and for me, especially when times are hard, but even when they're not like being leading through kindness, I've been really able to do that here.

Jamie: 11:53

So it's really interesting. A couple of things I've picked up on this one is a quite unusual, theme. I think I heard with regards to the values at true in that you probably didn't turn up and find kindness was one of the values. And maybe it's become more than just your value because of your sheer force of personality. But regardless, you, you're coming in here to be yourself, which is unwritten or written as a very important value in, in. In organizations of all types these but unkindness, go back to the most stressful, pressurized moment in your career.

Ella: 12:27

Mm-hmm.

Jamie: 12:28

Did you hold onto that kindness? Was it still top and center? And if say, how? Because I'll, be the first to put my hand up and say, when the going got tough, my values wouldn't go away. They would just be drowned out by the stress.

Ella: 12:44

Yeah. So, Sometimes and sometimes not in the later stages of my career. Yes, in the more earlier stages, and I'll tell you a moment that changed for me where I now can sit here and say, I think I live my values every day and it means I sleep at night and I'm very happy person as a result of that. was very lucky to be given a amazing executive coach when I had just been made managing director at drum. An agency was coming back off maternity to leave. The circumstances were very difficult and I got given this coach, that coach is still my coach today. Oh,

Jamie: 13:18

Oh, you, you've struck

Ella: 13:20

gold there. I have struck her.

Jamie: 13:22

God name, check your coach.

Ella: 13:23

Oh, Her name is Fiona Pasha. She is the best coach in the world. she's inspired me to become a home is ringing. Yeah, she, honestly, she's phenomenal and I've had some very, very, very challenging moments in my career and without her, I don't, I genuinely, without her and my husband, I would not be doing what I do

Jamie: 13:41

How often? do you speak to her? How often do

Ella: 13:44

So we have a, we have a session over the years, there's been moments where I haven't had her and then I've missed her

Jamie: 13:50

typically once a month. Once a month,

Ella: 13:52

yeah. She's two hours. Once a month grounds

Jamie: 13:55

but do you check, would you check in, in

Ella: 13:57

If there's something going on and I need her, she is there. She inspired me to train to be an executive coach. So I've done that. It's one of the things that brings me the most joy is coaching people, but coming back to value. So I'm a very. Values-based leader, not everybody is. So that's one of the first things I think I went through my learning was I didn't understand that some people don't lead through their values and some people do

Jamie: 14:23

Do they not lead through their values or are they just not got very good values?

Ella: 14:27

They don't lead through their values. And this is something I had to learn cuz I thought exactly the same as you. Maybe they're

Jamie: 14:32

they're just grotty people. I

Ella: 14:33

Oh great. And they're like, they're not choosing to lead through them and actively pull on them in the way that I do and lots of other leaders do. So that was one of the lessons I

Jamie: 14:44

how

Ella: 14:45

I'm into that.

Jamie: 14:46

a little, um, and there's two sides to my questions. Mm-hmm. I, I'm gonna talk about the personal stuff first of all. So give me an example of what that means to lead through your values. Are you in a moment of something's happening or you've got a decision or you need to communicate to someone? Do you literally find yourself stopping thinking, what do my values tell me I should be doing?

Ella: 15:08

Yes. So there's a tool I use when I coach people or with the team or it's called Via Character, basically. It's free, it's an online tool. You can do online character. Yeah. it's a strength finder tool, but you can interpret it as values. It's free to do, I highly recommend it. What it gives you back is your top 24. There's no negative in here. This is all positive. the premise of this is when you are going through incredibly stressful times, you dial up those top five strengths. Values Absolutely. As if you are turning up the sound to full

Jamie: 15:43

awful.

Ella: 15:44

I'm just gonna, Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So I was in a situation when I, this is a long time ago, and I've. Been in many a situation like this where you will always get characters that jar with your values or you are in circumstances that it becomes very difficult. My number one value is honesty. My number two is kindness. My number three is fairness. My number four is teamwork. Let's concentrate on those four for now. I was being put under a lot of stress and a lot of pressure, and a particular person was, I couldn't understand why they were behaving in the way they were behaving. And I was in a CEO role and had the authority and power to do, you know, to say goodbye to this person if I

Jamie: 16:23

And yet they were not behaving in a way that respected that power. Not that you demand respect.

Ella: 16:28

No, it's not about that. It was like, it was so testing and challenging and there were different ways I could have navigated

Jamie: 16:35

could have just fired that person on the spot, but

Ella: 16:38

I didn't. It crossed my mind. No, I'm joking. so when I worked through my coach, it was sometimes, yeah.

Jamie: 16:45

But it to

Ella: 16:45

be Yeah, definitely. Definitely. I think the, the main thing I wanna land is when you lead through values and this dial up exercise, it is very conscious. So day to day, do I think about my values? No. When I'm in a stressful situation and I'm evaluating how am I going to make decisions about this as a leader, I am very conscious of, am I being a hundred percent honest? Cuz it's really important to me. Am I being fair? you know, all of those things? Is this about the team or is this about myself? So everybody's

Jamie: 17:22

very present to, to get to that moment. And again, you know, we talk, I mean, it's, it's quite a, a big theme, isn't it, in, in business these days about are present in the now. But if you are 95% of, of the, the, the people, in, in business who are just going at the pace they feel they need to go at, it's very difficult to slow down check how you are and whether you are being true to what matters to

Ella: 17:50

Because you ultimately, I've made mistakes and I've not stayed true to those values sometimes, and it has made me miserable and haven't slept. So for me, sleep is so important. Like, so important. And so the, the whole premise of this is if you dial into those and you behave in to your values, you will sleep better. You will be a better leader. It might mean,

Jamie: 18:13

better person all around

Ella: 18:14

yeah, it might mean in this particular instance I'm drawing back on, it took longer. To say goodbye to that person in a kind and fair way,

Jamie: 18:24

but but a way that sets them up for the

Ella: 18:26

future. Exactly. And a way that I knew even when it got to that terrible bit at the end, it wasn't so terrible actually, because we'd both handled it in different ways, but I knew I'd done it the best way I possibly could. And I think when you are learning, and I've been on the hugest learning curve ever and will always remain on a learning curve, I hope, it was jarring with me sometimes. Some decisions I made, they physically impacted me and jarred me afterwards. And I would encourage anyone listening to this, take note of that jarring, take note of how your body feels. And if it jars you, it's jars you for a reason. Don't sweep it under the carpet and think, oh, well ow. Like, take a center of it and figure out it's okay to make mistakes. When you are super stressed, you are going to do things that on reflection in a different set of circumstances you wouldn't have done. It's not about not making, yeah, it's not about not making the mistakes or doing it or perfect. It's about learning quickly and finding a way to send to you so that you become the best leader you can possibly be for your people. Ultimately,

Jamie: 19:37

it's, it's brilliant. It's simple. In many ways, write down your most important values or use this tool that we will call via character and change. If not, in some form. and, and then, and then have that. Now, how does that, not con conflict, but conflate with corporate values? Because we also know that, many and especially founder led businesses have these very strong corporate values, probably based on the founders values, like they are here with Paul and Matt's helpfulness, as you said. and we on the whole encourage companies to define their character or their values or whatever you want to describe it as a way of, supporting the culture of the organization. now I've, I, I've got this imagination in my mind of five company values on one hand and my five personal values on the other. And now I've got, now I've got 10 values. I've got to make sure, is this, am I making up a really pathetic reason to be concerned with this Personal values leadership? Please. How does it, you know,

Ella: 20:40

does it, no. I think if you are a CEO or founder, that ultimately the company will, you

Jamie: 20:46

You're let's, but let's say you are one, you're around the C-suite. Yeah. And there's, there's, you know, the corporate values are really important and then there's your personal values. Of course, if there's conflict, we know the answer to that, right? You go with your personal values, but they could be complimentary, but more of them now. Is that, that's fine.

Ella: 21:06

I think. so let's talk about True as a good example, right? Like, I'm not the founders here, it's Paul and Matt and I do have complimentary, I think values and skills and it's more about, we talk about behaviors here actually for Paul and Matt, and one of them is passion for true. One is own your best self. One is comfort and discomfort. It took me a little bit of time actually to be able to go, where do I fit in that with, because I'm very values driven and Paul, and I've discussed this quite a lot actually. it's not, it's about you as an individual finding your way through that. So own your best self. That for Matt is probably going out for dinner, whining and dining, some people selling True. He's absolutely at his

Jamie: 21:53

best it's it's the best one to use as an example. Right. Because we can all Yeah. In an individual way do that. But some of the others are a bit more

Ella: 22:01

Well, passion for true is fine, right? Because if you don't have passion for the company you're working at, don't work there. Comfort and discomfort is harder. And that's definitely been a harder one for me to be like. And where that has caused, quite honestly, I care so much about the people I work with first. Mm-hmm. And

Jamie: 22:23

which will take you want to a path of wanting to resolve

Ella: 22:26

it's Yeah. Comfort. So, exactly. So Care first or Care second. So that's been a really big interesting

Jamie: 22:35

I have to say, I, I actually think it's doubles down on the power of, of company values or or character, which is my favorite. But anyway, the, one of the things I've found is if there is no conflict in the values of a company, they're not as useful because it's the tension between values that allows you to have an internal or an external debate about decisions. It is the tension between two goods.

Ella: 23:03

Yeah. I think it works if you create an environment where people feel very safe to express, I actually interpret it like this, or this is what it means to me and this is gonna make me be my

Jamie: 23:17

best And it can't be

Ella: 23:20

to no, and if you don't create an environment where people feel, I use the word safe, other people will say, you know, secure, whatever the word is. Like, you have to create an environment. For me, and I did this very much, and not on the high street where there was a psychological safety in what all the leadership team created. There was still some conflict, some tension. There was still a real diverse group of people around that table, but we were united on. The vision of saving that company for the 5,000 small businesses that relied on it for their income, right, to pay their mortgages. Like there's nothing like a common goal and a purpose to unite a team. And then if you create an environment for me, that's around creating an a kindness environment and a culture around that to let individuals thrive. But as a leader, this takes up loads of my time, right? So please do not listen to this thinking you can outsource it to someone. Like, I hear this, oh, we'll let the HR manager do that, or, we'll, bringing this consultant, or We'll do this. I'm

Jamie: 24:28

it's the same with any value. If you're not leading from the front with this and using it every day, it won't get embedded. It won't get used. It won't get exemplified.

Ella: 24:36

Yeah. Yeah. And do you know what? Sometimes you might be in an environment that it doesn't work for your values, and then that's okay. You can move on. It's okay.

Jamie: 24:46

And you should move on. Although that's a privileged thing to say. I'm, I'm, I do want to just connect very briefly back to, conversation two Poco with, with Nicola from Maid, where she also talked about the power and importance of having that, those very diverse opinions around a table in a moment, especially in a moment of crisis. And then obviously having a, a, a safe place for people to be able to make their cases and to want that as a CEO or as a leader rather than, as I know many leaders do, is they actually try to ensure that. They, they try to keep people in their, in their lanes and, and to not have this, because it's messy. Everybody having opinions and, and, and, and wanting to, to bring their point of view to something. It's a messy environment. It's hard.

Ella: 25:35

It's, it is. But if you're not having it around the top table, I can absolutely guarantee you it's happening without you there. And that's even more dangerous and becomes even more messy.

Jamie: 25:46

that's such a good

Ella: 25:46

point. So for me, it's, again,

Jamie: 25:49

people will have their opinions behind your back or in

Ella: 25:52

front of you. Yeah. So what culture do you want to create? Do you want a culture where people know, they can say, I don't agree with you and this is why, but for me it comes back to always care and kindness. Right. So I've been in an environment, I can't know if it was Google that implemented it, but there was a book called Radical Candor. And this book got handed out and I dunno if

Jamie: 26:12

It's one of those books where the title immediately gives you half the

Ella: 26:15

book, Oh my goodness. I remember thinking, it's like you've now given permission to basically be rude. Now, radical candor works when you go through all the stages and one of the key stages is, I know you, Jamie, I understand you. I genuinely care about you. Therefore, I'm, I feel I can say this. And you know it's coming from the right

Jamie: 26:38

Well, and you trust the, to use, well, it depends who's got the power base here, but you know, you trust the person with the power to not be using that against you

Ella: 26:47

yeah. And when it goes wrong is people hear these phrases like radical candor or they go, I look, I've just, I'm just opinionated. I've got an opinion, I wanna say it. And you're like, But where is that coming from and how are you delivering that? And have you got any empathy? So empathetic leaders are the best type of leaders in my humble opinion, because you are then executing decisions, you're having those difficult conversations, if I could give anyone, but train your team to have difficult conversations. This is slows down businesses. It disrupts businesses. You hire the wrong, like you can hire the wrong type of people. This, if you genuinely want a spirit of diversity and inclusion and you want different opinions, first teach them empathy. If they don't have it, and some people don't, right? Some people don't. And I've been there with a. Direct report once who was technically brilliant, but she really struggled with eq, like really struggled. And so most of

Jamie: 27:48

my many people,

Ella: 27:49

people do well. That right? It was like, I'm gonna give you a couple of scenarios this week. What with how I heard it or how the person heard it. And that was my one-to-ones with her wasn't the technical stuff or where are

Jamie: 28:02

are we on this objective and, and how do we

Ella: 28:05

no, because she could put that in an email, right? And I could say yes, no, the personal time in that week was much more about, I genuinely care, I still care about her a lot today. And that care came from, I'm gonna get her a coach to help her with this EQ side and empathy and I'm gonna invest my time one-to-one to be that mirror that she needs to learn the muscle. Cause I believe it's a muscle that can be learned.

Jamie: 28:30

Now, obviously you are going to, if I was to challenge you on economic business case of, of investing that amount of time, in, into understanding what people really are saying, for instance, there's no ROI to prove this. There's no, there's no evidence faced to say that a business will be stronger in, in the short, medium and long term for, for putting this stuff at its heart. We just have the anecdotes of great businesses and great leaders who do it, but give us a business case attempt to frame this as a business

Ella: 29:02

case. So there's lots and lots of ROI on having successful, diverse teams. Yes. And to have successful, diverse teams, you have to create an environment for that team to

Jamie: 29:15

just clicked, the You can't have diversity without people having empathy because that's where it falls down.

Ella: 29:22

Yeah. And you have Perfect. So the, for me, it's like a job as a CEO is, you know, the South's really easy in Singapore and I'm very, very aware of the realities of being in the trenches. But ultimately, I believe apart from setting a really clear vision and clear goals on what success looks like, which are all very, very key, the job of a CEO for me is to create an environment for the people around me to thrive and therefore the best. I believe if you've hired exceptionally great people, at the level where you're talking about here. This is founders and CEOs. If you hire brilliantly, whether that's for attitude or skill, we'll come back to that and you've set that clear vision. If you are having to get hugely involved in the execution of what those people are doing, something is wrong. Something is really wrong, so therefore your time should be able to spend on how am I creating the best

Jamie: 30:19

And, and let's, let's let's not skip over the, the setting the vision and, and, and what success looks like part of it. Because without that, the individuals can't lead in their own way anyway towards this common goal because you have to get involved. So you have to have that clarity I, I, I'm gonna take us off this, this road just for a second, because when I asked you half an hour ago, to tell me about True, my follow up question. My follow up question was gonna be, right. You guys talk to a lot of businesses, and rather than us looking at the stats, which is always a trailing indicator of how people are feeling about the world today, what's your sense of the pulse of business and the economy and our environment today? are you and colleagues worried?

Ella: 31:08

Yeah. So I can give you true and I can give you me and the pretty, pretty united, I think I would like to if you walk out this room today Yeah. Feeling more positive and more optimistic you are one piece of an influential puzzle. The more people that start to feel positive, the economy is going to get

Jamie: 31:29

No, the economy's made up of a, a large number of profit motivated individuals following the Okay, I agree. Positivity helps, but now let's get real.

Ella: 31:39

Yeah. So I think it's, It's tough. And I think CEOs certainly in our portfolio lots of people are tired cuz they've come out of Covid. That was tough. They then tough because for lots of our businesses actually, they experienced incredible growth cuz when lots of DTC businesses, but that was not easy to deal with. That volume

Jamie: 32:00

turned out to be transient too.

Ella: 32:02

too. Exactly. We're now dealing with As, as a lot of your people on this podcast have explained, you know, everybody, you know, the, the future is different. Mm-hmm. So I see and again, I'm ever the optimist, but I see it as it is going to be more positive for businesses because I think we will have more sustainable businesses that are gonna have to do things in a better and right way. And that is long term going to be good. For the economy and for people and for the planet.

Jamie: 32:33

more sustainable will come from where we are today. Or are you saying the businesses that aren't going to survive,

Ella: 32:40

So there'll, there'll be, there'll be not doing the right things? No, I, I feel terrible, right, that there will be businesses that for no instant fault because it has been quite dramatic times they won't survive. And that is awful. So I I'm not saying every business that doesn't survive today

Jamie: 32:58

it's one is one. It's one

Ella: 33:00

like Yeah, no, no, no, no. I'm not saying that. What I'm saying is the businesses that do survive, I think will be better for going through this because the pivot As a leader of high growth to cash conservation and how to be way more disciplined and frugal, you then find yourself. I've done a couple of turnarounds, and when you are in that situation, you become laser or you should become laser sharp on here and now, okay, what am I in control of? What can I sort out, how do I preserve cash? Also, someone in your business, if at all possible, has to have the mandate of looking when you are out of the storm, and I think if you can navigate that, someone's Someone has to be, ideally, you as a ceo, not always possible, but someone in your business or a group of people has to be working through what the world looks like when you are out of this storm. Because if you just tread water for too long, what happens?

Jamie: 34:10

I mean, you get very tired and you

Ella: 34:13

Yeah. So treading water and cash preservation and cutting and survival mode, which I think a lot of businesses are in Yeah. Is absolutely necessary. I,

Jamie: 34:25

in his own very different way, my friend Steve Lanker, who I do these little short podcasts with every now and again, was saying earlier this year how he really thinks businesses should be, especially those that are beating their negative budgets they set when we thought things were gonna be really bad. If they've beaten that number, take half of it and reinvest it in growth. that's all right for those who are beating their, their budgets and, and it's also the world's changed again though, and this is where I get a little bit down. I mean, at the beginning of the year. We woke up and found that we are not going to be in a recession as long and shallow as it was going to be. Now one seems terribly likely and probably more painful than the one that was previously predicted. and I too am worried about the tiredness because this isn't going to go away. For some time, for a lot of, a lot of businesses and consumer sector particularly. do, do you have a, I mean, you have so many different businesses, I'm sure you have different eyes on different ends of the market. I tend to have a amid to premium, mindset in terms of my consumer businesses. Is, is, is there a, do the businesses you are talking to feel the same?

Ella: 35:31

So we've got a bit of a spectrum actually, cuz if you think about a Ribble bike, that's an expensive purchase, very good value, excellent brand, very recommend them. But that isn't something you are going to just go, oh, for most people, they're not going to spend that much on a bike willy-nilly. Right? So you've got that extent. We've got a furniture business where through Covid, lots of people were in and spending their disposable income on doing up their house. And then you've got a energy drinks business called Sneak, which is a very different consumer. Right. Very, very different game consumer. So we're spotting different trends come out of that Forne. The payday window has suddenly become an incredible window for that business to not only acquire new customers, but for their current customers to come back. So people are more conscious of their disposable spending and when they want that treat or they want to buy something that they don't absolutely have to

Jamie: 36:28

Mm-hmm.

Ella: 36:29

The payday,

Jamie: 36:30

but the everyday treat. Yeah. Because that's what that is as opposed to the bike. But that window become more

Ella: 36:35

important. Yeah. Really interesting. So I'm like very similarly with a,

Jamie: 36:40

a, which as an insight can lead to all sorts of brilliant strategic plans and

Ella: 36:44

Yeah. Yeah. And it's, I think, because I have been an operator before, because of what I bring to the table, that was a while ago, I said on the sneak board, hang on a minute, are we seeing any patterns come? Yeah. Like what's, what are the patterns we're seeing? What are the trends? And I was like, I've got a hypothesis cuz it happened at, not on the high street, so actually we realized there was this window of five days where we could really up our marketing spend. It's really tactical, really

Jamie: 37:12

It's so, it's so important, isn't it? Because there's no such thing as a, a general trend in your business. So if I take my restaurant businesses, fine. If we had a month and we were down when, what days of the week, which locations in the uk, why get to the why cuz you got to the payday window. That was the moment.

Ella: 37:29

Mm-hmm.

Jamie: 37:30

Once you get to the why, then you can invest to grow that bit of the market that seems to be thriving

Ella: 37:35

Yeah. Because or correct from it comes back to, and everyone will talk about this and they talk about it for a very good reason. Empathy. So if you're putting yourself in the mind of your consumer and your customer,

Jamie: 37:47

my goodness me, you need EQ to

Ella: 37:49

run the consumer isn't it Literally Then you are like, they're probably running out of money now, or they're not top of mind, they're thinking about paying their mortgage or their energy bill. Or

Jamie: 37:58

And marketing authenticity is obviously so now and, and has been for the last five, 10 years. but it is, it fits in with the whole thing. It's why, it's why everything you're talking about in culture and values plays into the same questions in marketing consumer businesses and what we mean by brand I'm gonna move us on cause we're on our time. and, and we're not gonna do, if you don't mind, we're not gonna do the major sort of just, you know, go run through your cv, although I did read somewhere that you have amongst other things done, conveyancing being a reflexologist, a masseuse. but, the most, I don't wanna say interesting, but the most important for me and where I want to have a conversation with you about is you left school at 16, 15,

Ella: 38:42

Mm-hmm.

Jamie: 38:42

I'm, I'm really interested to explore your zigzagging journey mm-hmm. to being a ceo, which was at drum, a marketing agency. and I th I suspect we're going to pick up on a lot of where, therefore this character comes from of yours. But, talk to me as if you can about that journey, because where I want to end up on it a little bit, maybe for your three things or, or maybe we'll play on it. First is, so many of us in business are. Were for crisis came again, really focused on putting in place better recruitment processes and procedures to really try and get undiscovered talent into our businesses and not just go with you know, 80% based on the CV alone type of recruitment. Right. and, and I'd love to hear your story and your perspectives on what business can and should do to enable more people like you to, to, to thrive. even if they make choices to leave school early Yeah. And, and not go the traditional route. Right. So tell us the story a little

Ella: 39:44

bit. Yeah, I'll try and do it succinctly. it's definitely a squiggly one. So if I step back, say I am one of seven children, all of this is hyper relevant to the, yeah, we'll write down in the middle. Number three. my upbringing, I was raised in a council house in Watford, in London, and when I was five my father had an accident and as a result of that accident has never worked again. So as mentally disabled when I was five. So wanting to look after his family. we went on a bit of a journey of moving around and he could project man, he couldn't physically do the work, but he could project manage people to do up houses. and he was determined that we would, you know, have a nice home as a family, if not have much money. Like our home is very important. So we moved around a little bit. My mom, as a result, had seven children, worked at Asda. worked in a pub work split shifts. So as children we became incredibly independent and we looked the choice really. Yeah. And we looked after each other from 13. I was working, I used to clean the condo ferries. I'd cycle down on my bike three days a week. I got three 50. That was a lot of money. They thought I was 18. I never told them any different, to be fair, back to that

Jamie: 40:58

obviously. Yeah. I can't get away with that these days, can you? Um,

Ella: 41:00

but yeah, so I was cleaning ferries. Gross job, if I'm being honest. But that gave me financial, not independence, but I, I didn't have to ask my mum and dad for anything. So I started working at 13. By 15 I was working in a restaurant. I got pretty good GCSEs actually. and there was a lot of talk of, go to college, go do an mvq, and at that time you could leave school at 15, 16. You didn't have to do six form. when I worked in the restaurant, I was working nine till three, six till 12 or 12 till 12, right. It was shifts very quickly. They made me a supervisor. Then before I knew it, I was on this British Institute of in keeping path. they saw hard work and I. I, I guess good customer service being a good waitress. And I could handle chefs because I'd handled all my brothers, and my father. So like skills like that. they were just in me, I guess. And I really, really enjoyed the buzz of working and being around people. And then the financial reward meant I could take a lot of that money home to my family. Right. Which was a very positive thing for my family.

Jamie: 42:08

Does that mean it wasn't a hard decision to not carry on in education?

Ella: 42:11

it wasn't. I, like, I went round, I looked at Mbq, I looked at things and I was like, I, I enjoy working that's what I'm gonna do. And I guess it wasn't an over, I didn't have parents going, don't do that. I didn't have people around me, apart from a few teachers going, Ella, like, you could,

Jamie: 42:28

you could be You could

Ella: 42:29

be so Exactly.

Jamie: 42:31

okay,

Ella: 42:32

I didn't really

Jamie: 42:32

I didn't realize by the way, you know, I bang my drum all the time about how good a, long-term or even start to a career the hospitality industry can be. And I didn't realize this of, of view, particularly just going through a few layers of promotions and management, you know, getting into that space of effectively seeing a business operating close up. It's fabulous

Ella: 42:53

Well, I was at 17, 16, 17. I was cashing up the tills at night and like, literally the responsibility those owners gave me and trust they imparted at me at a really young age was insane. Really. I look back now, like I, I guess I was a gift cuz I had all this energy, all this kind of willingness to do

Jamie: 43:11

well. you definitely, you were grafted

Ella: 43:14

cliff. Yeah. Like that is in my blood to work hard. And it was, it, it's given me such, and I still say to this day, if you can handle chefs, you can handle anyone. in the politest way

Jamie: 43:23

I, mean, these days chefs are a different breed,

Ella: 43:27

most of them. and customer service. Right. Like all

Jamie: 43:30

well, customer service and I mean the, the restaurant industry is, it's such an interesting industry because it is only about the

Ella: 43:38

Mm-hmm. You And it teaches you life skills, like patience. It teaches you resilience, it teaches you kindness, it teaches you all these things that if you,

Jamie: 43:48

you maybe kindness or enabled

Ella: 43:49

you Yeah. Enabled me to be in an environment where, you know, don't get me wrong, you have, you get tired, there's difficult days, you get some really difficult customers.

Jamie: 43:58

colleagues at times who

Ella: 43:59

Exactly. And then you're like, empathy, empathy, empathy. Right. And I'm young. I'm young at this point and learning. I'm 16,

Jamie: 44:06

Where did it, but it, where did the empathy kindness bit come from at that

Ella: 44:10

age? honestly, good Christian principles as a girl, like, You know, treat others how you want to be treated. Like I was raised very much with those principles in my life. and they have, you know, I tried to raise those principles with my children. people around me today, they haven't ever left me. I don't think so.

Jamie: 44:28

Well, and, and of course, you know, there is, such an important role in the family and how, not a traditional family structure, I'm not giving it any of that, but in the people around you as you grow up, what they impart on you and how they

Ella: 44:42

Yeah.

Jamie: 44:42

okay. So, so you, you've, you are working away. You are, you are, but you're not on a path of clear path anywhere at this stage. You are trial and error. Do I like this? Am I having fun with this? Am I earning more money? I guess what's

Ella: 44:55

driving the, yeah. It was every move I made, it was a human connection with the person that asked me to go. And me thinking genuinely, oh, that would be really interesting. I'm interested in that. I wonder like, can I do that?

Jamie: 45:11

So you're in these roles that interact with people and people are coming to you saying,

Ella: 45:15

come and work for me. right, circle.

Jamie: 45:17

Have you ever applied for a job? Have you ever been in a competitive, recruitment

Ella: 45:21

yeah, so, so I got head tended for this role, but was up against quite a lot of people and I got

Jamie: 45:25

oh, you see, I always thought you'd, I thought that would be the story that Matt

Ella: 45:28

I just saw you and said, no, no, no. I got head tended and was up against people and for not on the high street. I was up against people that definitely should have got the job in terms of experience versus me. So now I have been in competitive situations, but for leading up to before I joined DO md, which was a huge turning point for me in my career. Yeah. I ran a chiropractic clinic cuz I had a snowballing accident, had chiropractic treatment and then the chiropractor said, can you come and run my clinic for me? I went to be a licensed conveyancer because we got to buy a house to do up, to raise some money for my family. And I dealt with the solicitor and at the end of the transaction he phoned me up and said, I've got a job I really want you to do. So

Jamie: 46:12

But how, I mean this isn't a podcast for young people listening sadly, cuz there won't be any but I mean, I know you do, you do school speaking and stuff. It's so important isn't it? To, to tell those stories about how just the, the what you bring to work every day will help you, but it is not, that's you fighting the world rather than the world enabling you.

Ella: 46:31

Yeah. But good people saw something in me, and I think this is, this is actually for leaders today is Yes, okay. I have a certain personality where like the optimism in me, the positiveness, like the work ethic, all of those things serve me very, very well for someone then to go, oh, maybe I'll give her an opportunity.

Jamie: 46:53

And and by the way, some people's amazing characteristics are more hidden. Maybe they're a great Excel analyst

Ella: 47:00

Exactly. Exactly. I'm like off the charts yellow, right? So like literally sunshine yellow. So that is good and bad. So I recognize

Jamie: 47:09

your, your point was to leaders though,

Ella: 47:10

Yeah. Spotting this. Yeah. then moved to London and it was, I

Jamie: 47:15

got from Watford, oh

Ella: 47:17

you, no, sorry. I, after Watford, we moved around, ended up in Waymouth, a town in Waymouth. Nice. So Waymouth is actually identified as, it was social mobility standards as one of the 10, what they call cold spots of the country. Right. So I'm ambassador for retail week, and I was in a breakfast meeting. I was like not on the high street. So it must be about three or four years ago. And Sarah, who's the CEO of the Social Mobility Foundation, was there and she was trying to educate everybody on, you know, the need to give opportunities and how the retail industry in particular is very, Good at this. She said, the problem we've got is we haven't got any, like the role models are dwindling. We still have a few that are up there, but no one's really talking about it anymore. Anyway, she went on to say list. She listed the 10 cold spots, Waymouth being one of them. She then listed, did they have were, did they have free school meals? And I sat there thinking, They then listed, they left school at night and I was thinking, oh yeah, that was She basically listed all these things that class you as, you know, somebody that would fall under today. We know a social mobility opportunity that need to be given, and I had this real moment and then

Jamie: 48:26

didn't know that was your story until

Ella: 48:28

moment? No, it was four years

Jamie: 48:30

ago.

Ella: 48:30

Yeah. So I would tell because it's just your story. it, it is who I am. Right. I didn't know that that was important to tell this story. So at that moment I said, oh, I'm really sorry. I feel like I should say. that's me. What you are describing is me and round the room, everyone looked and I felt quite emotional. It was like a real moment,

Jamie: 48:50

It's a, it's a

Ella: 48:51

huge moment. and said, oh, actually I've when I went, to, I standing not on the High Street, and I sat in that Zach Cream, the first question I got asked was, are you from Oxford or Cambridge? I was like, and everyone at that point, now the story is lots of people will know not Hundred Street. That exact team changed how, at that moment when I was there, that was the first question. I was like, oh no, I didn't go to university. And then I, that's what been my life in corporate is people will say, you didn't go to university. And I was like, no, no, I'm not highly educated Now, I was very lucky at. Omnicom to have the best boss ever called Philippa, who's still in my phone today, is called Philippa Best Boss. And she gave me the opportunity to become managing director and then CEO at Drum. She also put me on the Harvard Business School Development Program. Right. Oh, honestly, amazing, amazing, amazing. Very, very, very lucky. Blessed, privileged. All those words.

Jamie: 49:50

Hell no. you earned that.

Ella: 49:52

Yeah. Yeah. But only two people out of thousands were picked. Right. So she saw it, she did it. I got to do

Jamie: 49:59

it. it. She made the easy decision.

Ella: 50:01

Yeah. Because she saw, she herself was from a comprehensive school, saw something in me, saw this passion ability with people, and was like, I'm gonna give her a shot. Right. And I remember Campaign magazine covering the article and it was like, has basically saying, has she gone mad a bit? You know, so every time I've got these jobs, There's been enough people around me that have gone, she's gonna fail. That Jamie becomes an incredible motivator to not fail. So at

Jamie: 50:28

you don't suffer from imposter syndrome like the rest of us. You fight everybody else's imposter syndrome of you.

Ella: 50:35

Yeah. I think it's like, why should I fail? Like if you live by these principles, I'm gonna make mistakes. I'm certainly, when I went to Northern High Street, it was hilarious. Literally, I was in charge of trading an e-commerce business and didn't understand any of the acumen. Right. I was literally

Jamie: 50:53

business? 200 million. Right. Big businesses. this is almost like a And next time on this podcast moment, because, no, with all seriousness, cuz we have to get to your three things mainly, cause I have to pick up my daughter from school, otherwise I'd continue for the next two hours. and, and instead because we, we haven't actually got the So what from from this story, you're going to give us some in your advice and I know, but I feel like I'd like to have a part two where we actually look at the career that, that I was gonna talk about, which is, you know, what, how did you get to become CEO of drama and what was it on that journey that made you the CEO you are? We're gonna save it, but with a very particular agenda because if there's anybody listening to this who, who is a CEO or leader of a business that, hasn't got on their list of things, they know they need to be better at, a more diverse and inclusive workforce, I'd be surprised. But when I meet CEOs of scale ups and small and medium sized businesses, There's not a lot out there in terms of clear paths and clear action. And I'm not asking you to write that for people either, but I think we should explore it some more. But we're gonna go to your three things Yeah. And offer people a part two to this cuz it's been very, very

Ella: 52:04

enjoyable.

Jamie: 52:04

so hit me. Three pieces of action advice and I'm, I'm a bit of a grump on this. If it's not actionable, I'm gonna come at you.

Ella: 52:10

Oh, okay. well, unsurprisingly, I, I have, I, I did give this quite a bit of thought yesterday and I wanted it to hopefully link into some bits of popular culture. So my first one is be more Ted Lasso.

Jamie: 52:24

Oh.

Ella: 52:25

now if you haven't watched Ted Lasso, please please do. Come

Jamie: 52:27

come on now.

Ella: 52:29

but the actionable bit of that, obviously I'm going to say he. Leads through kindness in a way that I think the world needs more kind leaders. Please don't underestimate kindness being a weakness. It is not, sometimes it is kind to let somebody go from your business as long as you execute it in the right way. he goes through a lot of ups and downs, and when people stab him in the back and all those things, he responds with such kindness. And I think we can all learn

Jamie: 52:57

it. it. it's, it's a beautiful, exemplar of. the sort of kindness you've been talking about, we've touched on many ways in which this comes out. It, it's hard. We don't need it to be more actionable than this. People know what it

Ella: 53:11

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Jamie: 53:11

and the value I concur. There's no point discussing that one anymore. Tick.

Ella: 53:18

Great. Okay. The next one relates to my favorite film.

Jamie: 53:23

yes.

Ella: 53:23

I'd like everyone to be a little bit more Forests Gump.

Jamie: 53:27

Oh, you see, we could just spend the next

Ella: 53:30

I could talk about this a long time. Um, forests

Jamie: 53:32

Gump is your favorite. I mean, it's pretty,

Ella: 53:34

I think for me, if I was to summarize the Forests Gump, and maybe we'll come back to this, if we do do a part two, is for me, he's the ultimate underdog that lived his life through optimism. And he reinvented himself time and time again, and through a sheer work ethic, he, launched a business with shrimps champion pink on player, marathon runner, football player, all through this love that, that he had and this optimism. And for me, there will be people in your business today that you can give an opportunity to. It might not be the job they're doing today. It might be the job they're doing today. Look to give opportunities to people and always think about reinvention. that's what I mean by be Forrest Gump

Jamie: 54:21

So look to people to enable their reinvention. For them. But also because you think that's good for the business. Cuz you're, you might be allowing them to reinvent themselves outside, but you're talking about inside. I think the issue is don't do it. If you're not gonna support it's like over promotion. you can give people that opportunity, but if you don't have the systems and infrastructure to enable them to thrive,

Ella: 54:46

a hundred percent. I've got a guy that worked with me and not on the High Street He probably reinvented his role every year to 18 months from data to merchandising to digital product. He's now the CTO at Huel. and he's fantastic, right? And that's because he was curious.

Jamie: 55:02

is reinvention important for everybody though? I mean,

Ella: 55:05

it's for your business, I think

Jamie: 55:06

I, I, by the way, I'm a reinventor, right? I've I've got a bit of a squiggly career too. But for your business, it's important.

Ella: 55:12

So I think it's two things. It's not for everyone and

Jamie: 55:15

that's okay.

Ella: 55:16

Hundred percent No, no, no. A hundred percent. But when it comes to opportunities, people that have been from disadvantaged backgrounds they will be carrying a lot of things and they might not put their hand up for things and they might not volunteer in the same way. Someone that's come fire a different path will,

Jamie: 55:33

and and this is actually about progression as much than the others and finding the right role for the right people. So they may have got to the role they're in because that was the easiest route for them to get to. I'm gonna have to say this is not what I'm insisting you put into action right now cause it's gonna be the whole conversation

Ella: 55:51

Okay. My third and final one, I mentioned her earlier. Best boss ever. Um, is be more Philippa and I'll tell you why. And that is all about having fun. When I went through that difficult time I went to see her it was probably three, four months in. And I went and said, look, I'm this is awful. I'm not enjoying it. There's no fun. Like it's really hot. And And she looked at me and said, you are the ceo. If you are not having fun, your team aren't having fun. I am not gonna make you fun. Go and have some fun. And she literally said it like that. And she said, go. And I thought, Oh, that is true. And the next week fun, fun-filled teams and people is different.

Jamie: 56:33

Sure. But

Ella: 56:33

next week I remember putting in a

Jamie: 56:35

And, and by the way, the whole d and i agenda needs to be

Ella: 56:37

very carefully considered, Exactly. but for me at that moment, I remember putting in a lunch with a few key members of the team and they were like, what? And I said, yeah, let's, let's just go and have some lunch. Like, I know it's really difficult. And we went and we laughed and it triggered something in me that I'd forgotten. It was a key part of my leadership. A key part of why people worked with me I was always a person that was work hard, have some fun, and it was in times of real stress. And you can feel like zero fun. And my advice to you as a c e O if you're listening or a founder is even in hard times, please don't outsource the fun. Please don't think, oh, it's fine. They've gone off and done X or Y

Jamie: 57:19

and it's not tick the box either.

Ella: 57:21

Go have fun. Yeah. fun is different, right? Fun is they need to see you as a leader with some happiness and joy and fun. Now that can just be walking in the morning and saying a big hello and a happy face, or it can be organizing

Jamie: 57:35

it's Such a common theme for me about the sort of the, the, the misunderstanding of business. it is nothing a human endeavor. It is a community. And I mean, I've, I've, I've come to, to realize many, many years ago I realized that I sort of work is where I get a lot of my community from for various reasons. And, and think that came through in, in some of my leadership, but, perhaps not as consciously thinking about it as Philippa. And I like that because there were, I can imagine several times of stress where I would not be bringing the fun, I'd be bringing the stress. Yeah. And it's sort of counterintuitive and counterproductive.

Ella: 58:09

so yeah, They are my three. Be more Ted lasso, be more Forrest Gump. And finally be more Philippa.

Jamie: 58:15

We're gonna explore why the pop culture references, but more importantly, DNI and all sorts of things when we catch up for part two, I, I really wish, no, gosh, this would be joyful. thank you. we don't know each other very well. We've, we've had an event and now I feel I know a little bit about you and I'm looking forward to know a lot more about you. And Thank you. for Your time today, and look forward to the next chat.

Ella: 58:38

Thank you very much for having me.