Navigating Faith and Family as a Christian Father

Today's guest is Omer Mahmood.

We go deep today talking about:

Navigating daily Scripture reading as a dad
What does it mean to “just be a child of God”?
The results of trusting in myself and why I think God let’s us go through these trials
Discernment in action versus trusting God
Sanctification through hardship
Thoughts on asking and receiving in prayer
Reforging relationship with your father and making sure you don’t drift away from your own kids
How to unpack your anger at your kids
The messiness of the “having kids” season of your life

Omer Mahmood is the host of the Union Apparel Podcast where he shares real life stories to restore hope and point people to Jesus.

Find Omer online at:
Instagram: @unionapparel.co
Website: Union Apparel
TikTok: @unionapparel.co

Resources mentioned:
Union Apparel Podcast

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Curt: 0:00

Hey guys, it's Curt Storring from The Dad.Work Podcast. I am here today with another episode on YouTube, Apple, Spotify, all the places you can listen to the podcast. And the reason that I'm shooting this intro real quick before the podcast is because I'm doing something different today. I've got my friend, Omar in my house shooting a live podcast. And guys, we do this a couple of times a week anyway, usually at a coffee shop. So I was like, look, why don't you come over? We'll record it. And that way everybody can hear how we are navigating things as sort of Christian fathers in the messiest stages of life with multiple children, businesses, marriage, all sorts of crazy things. But the thing is we are so edified by these conversations. Like we go so deep and we support one another in such an amazing way and iron truly sharpens iron So my hope for this podcast is that you'll listen to this. You will be given hope because you know the things we're talking about. Maybe you've never heard of them before. Maybe you've never heard men Speaking in this way before, maybe you've never wrestled with these ideas before in a way that are really serious, but we're bringing them to you, not with all the answers. That is the number one thing is we don't have all the answers, but we are constantly questioning and I think that's important. I want you guys to listen to this. I want you to be edified by this such that you can maybe apply some of these things in your life and lead your family better and have deeper conversations with your friends around things that actually matter. Okay. So if you want to learn more about the podcast, I talk about with Omar, he has a podcast called The Union Apparel Podcast. I interviewed him for the first episode so that he could tell his story, which is insane, by the way. So I want you to go and check that out on YouTube right now. It's YouTube only search The Union Apparel Podcast. You'll find his show there. The first few episodes are already out. Subscribe, like, all that kind of stuff. If you are listening on YouTube, subscribe and like here, obviously. Otherwise, if you're on Apple, Spotify, leave us a rating, review, subscribe there and just be alone for the ride, guys. We are building an absolute movement here of Chad Kings, like yourself, who are super serious about leading their family well. Especially as a Christian father. And for me, I'm just like a new Christian father. What am I supposed to do? We are building a movement here of dads who probably never learned from their dad, what it was like to lead a family who probably never learned how to be that role model, but who are absolutely dedicated to getting this right now, because they know. That the risk is massive if they don't, we are men who are hard to kill, easy to love and equipped to lead. And I want you here for the journey because I can't do this alone. So come along for the ride, learn from me and my guests. And I thank you for being the type of man for whom this is important. Now on the podcast with my friend Omar and myself. Here we go. Because I've inherited, if that's even if you inherit certain qualities of your parent, I'm very much like my dad in a lot of ways. And I'm grateful that I have a partner who doesn't have the exact same mindset as me where she's tempering that side of me because I'm very aware that if I'm not intentional about my relationship with my boys, that it's going to end up being the same. I'm going to not break that chain, that chain is going to continue on. I think, and I'm no expert on this, I just think his parents weren't very loving. So he didn't know how to love, it doesn't mean he didn't have love, he just didn't know how to express it. What's up, this is The Dad.Work Podcast, you're listening to... Obviously, I am Curt Storring, your host. I'm here with my actual in person friend, Omer, who is the founder of Union. What is it called? Union Apparel? With my friend Omer who is the founder of Union Apparel and the Union Apparel podcast which I Sent to you guys if you listen to this podcast by email a couple weeks ago So pumped to have you on because this is what we do Regularly, which is go to coffee shop and shoot the breeze and yeah, we're just gonna chat today about what we'd normally be talking about

Omer: 3:57

Sorry, I had to throw that in there.

Curt: 3:59

Coffee's delicious. Oh, yes. Thank you. And this is just like the most casual way that we could like recreate the coffee shop environment. And it's not awkward at all. It's not awkward that I'm set up in my It's not awkward that there's a microphone between us, it's not awkward that there's like a blinding light there or a camera but like Omar said, we have to get used to incoming celebrity because that is obviously in the cards for both of us. But anyway, usually how this works is we have someone on the podcast and I ask questions, but lately what I've loved doing is just having conversations because I also want to like sort of share what God's doing in my life and I think that's sort of where we're going here is that we usually talk about. Like what God's doing and what we're trying to think about and how it's working in our lives. And that's like the most important thing. And I noticed some, like what was it? It was a couple of days ago, we were at a barbecue, like just this other event. And I was talking to this guy and we were talking about business for a long time. And I was like, okay, sweet. Like what, let's talk about like the real stuff now. And as I was leading into it, I asked a probing question and I was like, Oh, you are like not in the headspace where Christ and God in Christianity and your faith is the number one thing in your life. And I could tell. And I just thought like, where's Omar? It's like, I need to talk, I need to go deep here. So anyway what are you, what are you thinking about these days? What's on your mind right now? Other than Need to talk about your childhood childhood

Omer: 5:22

You know the number one thing right now in my mind, if I'm being brutally honest, I'm going through a bit of a a plateau right now where I feel like things are kind of like this. I don't want to go like this, but, you know, they're, they're, nothing's really going on where, you know that, you know, Shannon's in, in the she's not well. The house that got her sick isn't getting any better. We don't have certainty around where we're going to be living. And so that's kind of the predominant theme. And you know, I've been spending a lot of time, or I was spending a lot of time, as you know, you know, I committed to doing Bible in a year. And I feel like I've fallen off of that wagon. Like a couple of weeks, three weeks ago, I'm really behind. And I'm constantly plagued by, I've got to catch up, I've got to catch up. And last time we were talking before bed, and I'm like, Shannon, maybe... It's my need to catch up and now I feel like it's works. Yes. And I'm trying to reconcile the works based theology with the faith based theology. I mean, I am remembering God several times in the day, right? I start my morning with prayers and all that, so it's not like I've completely walked away from him or not paying him any attention. I am. Just not reading like I'm supposed to. So there's this guilt associated with that and just I feel like a little bit disconnected and then as the problems are kind of mounting, it's feeling a bit, you know, a bit overwhelming to say the least. So and you know kids are school started activities and it's just it's a very busy

Curt: 6:55

schedule. So like chaotic but without like a direct goal to go toward and everything's kind of like muddled otherwise. Is that okay? Yeah. Do you think that if you Like just started reading like a chapter a day, you would feel like you were reconnected? Or like does it have to be the Bible in your thing? Because I resonate with like falling behind on habits as I'm sure you know That's very difficult for me. But like could you just Cut that and be like actually I just need to be in the word for like a page every day That's a good question. I

Omer: 7:27

don't know. I haven't, I haven't given it much thought. All I'm looking at is the mountain of pages that I've missed. Now I'm going to catch up and you know, it's, it's, it's interesting that the second, the second episode of, of my podcast launched yesterday and I was sitting there taking notes to optimize the video, right? And I noticed that, that Brian, he mentioned certain scriptures, which I couldn't regurgitate at the top of my head. So I started writing them down and I started looking them up and I'm like, man, I went through Isaiah. How did I miss this? Or I went through Psalms. How did I miss this? And I think that need to get to the finish line is preventing me from really paying attention to the actual journey. Yes. And don't get me wrong, I've had moments where, like, the words jumped out, right? And I'm like, yes, this applies to my life today, this is wonderful. And we've had conversations about that. But lately it feels like I'm just reading to get stuff done. Right. I'm like, man, I missed out the most prophetic book. And I'm not getting, I didn't get what he's talking about. So, I think that's a great idea, just, even just a page to get back on

Curt: 8:38

track. Yeah, well, I mean, that's, the reason that I bring that up is because that's sort of where I am right now, too. Like, there's just All of these things I was doing, all of these habits I was doing. And I'm like, why am I doing this? Like, for example, we had a 100 burpee a day challenge inside the Brotherhood. And I was like, I don't want to do this, but it's another thing to do. Therefore, I have to add it to my stack. And by the end of it, I was like, I was doing this to prove myself. To myself and others, which is a terrible motivation because I don't have to prove myself to anybody But I thought I did and I realized like that was a couple weeks ago or three or four weeks ago And I think we talked about this last time. We're at Blacksmith which it's not the sponsor of the show. Yeah, come on guys We talked about this where I was like if I could just like what would my Action be if I was doing it out of an outflow of love for God like what if that was my only motivation Is I'm loved by God. I want to love God. I want to be obedient to God Would I be doing these burpees right now? Manch was like No You're trying to prove yourself to like be the self. What is it the the like having having self confidence And I remember hearing that like a year ago, so like really early in my Christian walk and someone's like replace self confidence with like Jesus confidence And I was like what like but I am self confident like I am the only one I can trust and all of this over the last Like month and that's where I'm in the crap right now is Like are you really okay? Just being God's son. Are you really okay? Just being Yourself and having nothing you need to prove to anybody and just having God like envelop you in love every day and That's been hard,

Omer: 10:19

but like what does that even mean? Okay, so like which I see what I see what you're saying But like can you just be God's son? But what does that mean? So you're married four kids. I married three kids, right? there's music lessons and soccer practices and school fees and mortgage payments and rents and All of this stuff that we did just because you choose to just and I'm just I don't know Maybe I'm just being a devil's advocate here for for a while But what does it mean to just be the child of God like you got all the stuff coming at you? And if you don't perform

Curt: 10:52

Yeah, well, that's the I think that's probably like the The crux of it all is just this balance and I think that for me like I've had to go on to the extremes of each of those so like after the cleaning business failure of like two or three years ago I did nothing for months and I was just like super flowy and like letting everything come to me And I wasn't Christian at that point so it's not super here nor there and then recently I've just been in like the go go go forever and in seeing both of those extremes I get at least a little bit better of sitting in the middle, but this It's a totally new idea, and I'm thinking about it, like, from a motivation standpoint. So what would I do if I didn't have to prove myself? Because that's always my thing. Because, like, why do you do anything? Why am I doing this podcast? Well, well, why am I doing this podcast, right? Like, is it truly to glorify God? Because, you know, what is the chief aim of man? The first catechism or whatever. The chief aim, the chief aim of man is to glorify God and enjoy him forever. Am I doing that here? Like, that should be my number one thing, and I should be abounding in love. I should be overflowing like song 23 says. And if I am, then all of those other things are done to glorify God too. So am I being the husband I need to be because I feel so loved by God as his adopted son that he's like singing over me that I can just like put that into my marriage. I'm already overflowing. And then like, as I'm being a father, I'm challenged. But the general idea is that my motivation is wrong so often. Because I feel a need to be not approved because it's not like an approval seeking behavior. It's a disapproval avoiding. But in that it's a, it's just like the same side of the, the opposite side of the same coin. Which is, I care what other people think, not necessarily just what God thinks. And so I think, for me, the more I can dim the fear of man, and like ratchet up the fear of God, I think that's where it comes in. Like, does that... Well,

Omer: 12:50

I know what you're saying, and this feeling of what other people are going to think. I mean, look at Peter, man. Like, he walked with Jesus, right? He was his inner circle. He was Mr. Hey, I'm going to take care of you, and I'm going to... Even he denied him three times, right? Even he, but then you see a post like another version of him after his death and resurrection and he becomes one of the, you know, one of this instrumental people, apostle in bringing people to Christ. So I know that it's a journey for sure. But when I see, so when we hang out and I'm like back home and I'm thinking about kind of your discipline. So if it was a spectrum and let's just say you're like, On this side of the spectrum in terms of like, I got to get up early and I'm doing this and I got this list and I'm going to do it because I can and I'm strong and I'm this, that and the other. Then I would, and then this other side is like a complete apathy, right? Where I'm not going to do, I'll wake up whenever I wake up, I'll do whatever, like where you're in a routine. I mean, I go home and I evaluate kind of my life and I'm like, okay, I need to be more like Kurt in certain areas. But when you talk about the burden of doing it all and carrying it on, like, man, I don't, I don't know. No, I don't want that. I want to be, I, and you know, we both have the luxury of being an entrepreneur, so it's not like we have to commute and you know, an hour and a half, an hour and a half back, that kind of thing. So I love just. Do nothing and I can do it guilt free for the most part, right? But then when I sit down with you sometimes I'm like, oh man, I should really be doing more, working on an example in my setting. But this is where I think, you know, the discernment comes in because what he's asking me to do is not the same that he's asking you to do, right? Right. I know there's some broader tenets that we all have to follow, but I think he's using everybody in a very unique way. Way. Yeah. So I think, but I really do believe our iron sharpens iron, right? So there might be some things that you say and I get it all the time. Like I come home and I'm like, man, that was, I really needed that. Yeah. Because something you said, and it's not like, you know, we're trying to teach each other anything, but something you share from your life. I'm like, man, that was actually really good. I'm going to, I'm going to try and incorporate that. Right. And so it enriches my life. In, in, you know, in little ways then I incorporate just

Curt: 15:12

little ways. well, our friendship.

Omer: 15:14

Well, it's only a year and a half old, right?

Curt: 15:16

So let's yeah, no, I think that, that's what I've realized recently as well, is I, I used to feel bad for having the gifts and the talents that I do because even though I was like, Ooh, look how good I am, I can carry everything on my back, and that's, everything's on me. It was like very me focused. And I think God lets that happen. He's like, okay, you want to carry it all? Go for it. And then I, like, just get smoked. And he's like, you really want to trust yourself? Because I'm over here, if you just, like, put me on, instead of, like, robe yourself in Christ or whatever, like, his plan is so much better than mine. I used to think that it was, like, a punishment when he was, like, die to self and, like, come to me and just, like, put me on, the old man is gone, the new one is born. And I was like, but... What about me? Like, I don't want this life to end because it's fun and it's exciting and it's exhilarating. And I was like, well, man, it kind of seems like boring and legalistic and annoying. These are like my internal thoughts. Like, please don't smite me sort of thing, but I'm like, what about me? And then recently, because I was wiped out two weekends ago, like depressed, like I haven't been in five years going like, I know all the ways to get out of this. And I can't. I was like, God, just smite me down. Like, I'm so bad. I'm so horrible. And in that, it was kind of like, you can be wiped out, Curt by like an emotion. And you want to put your trust in yourself? Like, are you dumb? Like, God is over here, unchanging, and the rock, like the fortress, the stronghold. You could just put him on instead, and then, like, I prayed this morning because I have been anxious the last couple of mornings. I don't know why. I'm like, trying to change the direction of dad work, I'm trying to change the direction of my life, trying to trust him more. And that means the business that I'm building cannot be me doing everything all the time because I can handle it. But I prayed this morning because yesterday I couldn't get over it, and this morning I woke up anxious again. I'm like, Oh, just give me peace. And I got a text yesterday from a friend who's like, I've been praying for peace for you. Amazing. But this morning I was just like, I need peace. I need peace. I need peace. So I was thinking back to the identity piece, like, what does it mean to just like be God's son? I was like, what does Jesus think about me right now? He just loves me. Like, can you, can you imagine? What it would feel like or what it takes, how much love it takes to like have a substitutionary sacrifice as you're about to like be led to Sheol or Hades or wherever, like you're going to die and you're like, no, God, I didn't mean to do this. I'm just a sinner. I didn't mean it. And the last second Jesus comes in and he's like, no, I got you. And then instead of just being like, we're going to work this out. I'm the king of the universe. Like, just don't do that. He's like, I'm actually going to die for you. And it's like, oh snap, like that love is real and it's really been like, I've been feeling that lately. And then I come back and I read in Isaiah, Isaiah 30 verse 15 says repentance and rest is your salvation. And it doesn't say like working harder or self identity. It doesn't say like, do more Curt is your salvation. And then the next line says in quietness and trust. is your strength And I prayed before I opened the Bible. I was like, I need to feel the peace. Like, I need you to talk to me today because my mind's been racing and I haven't been able to settle it to like, hear your voice or whatever. And the first thing I read, my reading started in Isaiah 30, 15, 12, three verses later. He's like, repentance and rest, quietness and trust. That has nothing to do with me. I'm like, directly being spoken to. And so, anyway, like this whole thing is... For some reason coming to me very quickly, but it's taking a lot of pain But I think that's where I'm coming into is being like I'll just trust him with everything. You have to be the CEO of my business, because I don't know what I'm doing. And what I realized as well, speaking of Isaiah, and I'm just going for this now, is in Isaiah, he talks a lot about, like, the punishment coming into Israel, because, well, Israel and Judah, because they keep going for alliances outside of God. They're like, okay, well, if we, like, line up with the Egyptians or the Assyrians, then, like, we're going to be safe from these guys. And God's like, you could just pray to me. Like you could just come to me, dummies, and I'm continually going to these coaches, right? Like I signed up for that coach a couple months ago. That was me allying with someone who wasn't God. I was like, look God, I know that like you've got my back, but it's not working fast enough, and if you could just like, is this okay? And I didn't spend any time listening. I was like, is this okay? Yeah, I thought so. And I did it. And this is me like spending thousands of dollars on a coach for the second time this year, allying myself with And then being totally overtaken and God's like, I'm going to let you suffer. And then it says after that, that, you know, you'll cry out and I'll immediately help you. And so I think I've finally, at least in this stage, and I'm sure it'll happen again. I'm at least learning. So

Omer: 20:11

is that what he said? That I'm gonna, I'm gonna take care

Curt: 20:13

of you? Yeah,

Omer: 20:14

after he talks about... The reason I'm asking... First of all, I got goosebumps. If I was wearing short sleeves, you'd be seeing hair like all the way up to here. Because I know exactly the passage you're talking about. But in Ezekiel later on, he says, Even if you brought Daniel and Moses or... He names three people. Even if they were here. Because now he's talking about a time of Ezekiel's time, right? So it's past here. Punishment's coming. He said, even if those three were here, only those three would survive. I will get rid of everyone and everything, right? Because things got so bad. But I, I, I know exactly what you're saying. Because last night I was thinking, I got into a coaching program a few years ago, which is the most money I've ever paid. And it was this really intense thing. It did change. My life, but now, now that I've plateaued, I'm like, maybe I should send the guy a message and show him my works, right? Like, look at the writing that I'm doing. Look at the affirmations. Look at the, look at the journaling. Why isn't it breaking? Why can I not break through right now? Like, this is consistent for the, you know, like, I don't even know how many months of this nonstop. Writing, thinking, gratitude, you know, all the things that you're supposed to do. Right? I'm grateful, and I'm this, and I'm that, and verses, and... And then I was like, I should just reach out to this guy, and say, Look, take me on as a client, tell me where the gap is. What am I doing wrong? And that same verse that you were talking about, came to my mind. You're looking to the Egyptians, and you're looking to the Babylonians, or no, it was because of the Babylonians, Assyrians, and whatever. Not only am I going to destroy you, but I'm going to destroy everybody that helped you. And also I'm like, Oh, okay, Lord, does this mean I should reach out to that coach? And so my challenge right now is it's not even so much I've read the same stuff. It's discernment. It's discerning this information. I'm like, Hey, Lord, do you want me to reach out as part of my, you know, my, what is it called? Like I'm doing my part. Yeah. You do yours. Or is this me reaching out to someone bypassing you and not waiting to hear what you have to say? Because if you can't resolve my. challenge and I have to lean on somebody else. Yeah, that,

Curt: 22:28

oh man, that's cause on the, in Proverbs it says that like success requires a lot of advisors and so at the same time you gotta, like, the discernment is so big but that discernment and that wisdom is starts with the fear of God, like the understanding starts with the fear of God and so maybe like I don't know how you check that other than just knowing in your spirit like I'm trying to rush this or I'm scared or I fear that you're not gonna come through for me God and for me that's what it was with like I've got, I've got enough to survive, like, give us today our daily bread, I'm like, thank you in advance because you already have. You've got to pack a bakery. Exactly. And, at the same time, I'm like, well, I'm not really secure in that gun. And, the thing is, like, the Israelites who got the manna, those who got a lot, didn't have too much. Those who got little, didn't have too little. So, like, he just provided what he wanted to provide, the exact amount. But then what you were saying about, like, is this me going against His will by taking action myself. I read as well, which is Isaiah 30, 23 says, He will also send you rain for the seed you sow in the ground. So, number one, He's going to provide. But number two, the seed has to be sown in the ground. You've got to be doing the work. And my mentor Scott tells me, just dig the ditch. Because when you're digging the ditch, at some point God will send the rain. And if you haven't been doing the work. They're just going to go all over your field and ruin it. So, I think, for me at least, action is the, well, action is the antidote to average in most things. But just taking action and trusting that the outcome is going to be of him. And now that I'm just like totally into my little red string theory of everything. I got this from a friend, Heston, who's in our program, who I had a podcast with a couple weeks ago. He said, there is, or he sent me the link, and it says, The usual saying is that pray as if everything depends on God, and work as if everything depends on you. Like, that's from Saint Ignatius, apparently. But someone said, you should reverse that. And I was like, huh, interesting, what does that mean? But it says, pray as if everything depends on you, and work as if everything depends on God. This means that prayer has to be urgent. God has to do something dramatic if everything depends on me. It also puts our work in the right perspective. If it depends on God, we can let it go. We can work hard, but leave the outcome up to Him. If God is in charge, we can tolerate mixed results and endure failure. So this was like a braingasm to me. Where I'm like, okay Lord, if it's up to me, like, please help. I can't do anything myself because you've just shown me self reliance is horrible. But I'm like not gonna work myself to the bone and have to be perfect like I always have needed to be Because you're gonna do whatever you want with my work Anyway, so as long as I'm doing it diligently and as long as I'm not like shirking my responsibilities Just let it go and that's so hard because I just have this need to know now and the scarcity mindset See as

Omer: 25:25

you're talking I'm like, okay back in the day. What was work? They had to like sow seeds Yeah, they had a piece of land. So what is work? Yeah, I'm gonna So if they didn't sow the seeds, it's very simple. You're not going to get a harvest. But in today's day and age, what does sowing the seed even mean? Like do I record the podcast? podcast? Right? Like, do I reach out to the coach? Do I not reach out? And you just said you reached out, it backfired. So was that the right path that the Lord closed the door, but you were doing your part? He closed the door? Or in my case, it's like, well, do I reach out? But then I, then this Isaiah passage that you're talking about, I'm looking at going, well, am I, am I going? So I think what I need right now is I need some, I need discernment and wisdom in how to, okay, what is work? Right. What does that look like, Lord? Tell me, okay, this is your to do list for today. The rest, I got it. But when you're trying to second guess, okay, which is which, that's where I feel like that's my frustration right now, is I don't know what that work looks like. Am I reaching out to somebody? Do I just take the seeds and just hang on to them because my master, you know, he's going to come, you know, that one. Like, do I invest it? Do I invest it aggressively? Do I invest it moderately? Do I just sit on it? And then when the master comes back, he's like, yo, what'd you do with my money? So there's that too. So I think for me right now, that's it. It's knowing what work is. And then, okay, once I know what it is, then I can do my part and just leave the rest to him.

Curt: 27:02

Yeah, I think there's I mean, there's so much here, obviously but I think I needed, and this is the weirdest thing, right? Because I'm like, oh, did God stop me? Did he make the best of a bad thing? Like, how much of this is known and predestined? Like, theologically, I have no idea. But I needed to have, I'm going to say, wasted those many thousands of dollars on this coach so that he could bring me along into where I am now. Because what's the most important thing? Again, glorifying and enjoying God. Everything needs to glorify Him, if it's good. And that's what I think we're called to do. And so... My spending that money put me into an identity crisis and an existential crisis Which has now led me to putting more of my faith in him And I think that's what he's doing our entire lives and for me This is sanctification like I made the choice that really hurt and like silver in the whatever Yeah in the furnace. I'm getting my impurities worked out so that I can be more like his son And so, of course it's in his plan, and so taking action, I think, is usually a good way to do that, but I also wonder, in your case, about, like, where's the level of self awareness that you need and have to go, like, I'm not taking action because I'm worried. And what does that worry mean? Why am I not just trusting that whatever I do, it's going to be for His glory? And am I looking too much for my own safety and security here, which I do all the time. Or am I just like, Lord, I'm just going to act and like, whatever I do, I know you've got it for the good. And then have that long term perspective. Because I think a lot of people as well are just like, well, a bad thing happened to me. Where's God in that? But I think if we have the eternal perspective, when he works all things for good, it means all things for his good eternally, which means things can, like, if, if his good plan doesn't include me being alive after tomorrow, it doesn't mean that he's a bad God. It means that he's got a plan, and his plan is good. It's not that, oh, well, human reality says that he shouldn't have killed you. How dare he? Like, no, he's God. He gets to make up all the rules. And that's what is morality, not some like rational thing that we can come up with. And it's glorious that he's made it so rational. But I think that like, I am really trying to broaden my perspective so that I don't think that every like individual action is like a make or break. And for me that's super hard because I am like super scarcity mindset with money especially. If I don't have everything right now... I could die like 10 years from now, bro. Like, I might not have enough a year from now. What are you talking about? I have to have it all right now. So, I don't know. Maybe there's just some thinking on like, why am I not able to just move forward? Why am I not just trusting that even if I do reach out and it screws up, he's still got me. Because, I mean, we haven't even gotten to your story, which is like, mind blowing. And he's testing you, I'm sure, right now to see how much you

Omer: 29:52

can take. It's embarrassing. This is where sometimes I can't help but feel like a hack, but then I also know that when you start getting those thoughts, they're from the enemy too, right? Like, so it's so much to reconcile, but as we're talking, I'm like, okay, I read this every day. It sits at the very top of my, of my journal, my planner, but seek first his kingdom and his righteousness and all these things will be given to you as well. And I'm just going, did I seek his kingdom first this morning? Right. The answer is no. I didn't. Well, I prayed, but I didn't actively. And this is where I feel like a hack because I just, in my story two weeks ago, I shared it with the world, but what submission to him led to, and how ridiculous, so every time, and we've talked about this, every time I feel like, every time I read the Old Testament, I'm like, these Israelites, what is wrong with them? He pulled them out of bondage, man, the plagues, they saw the plagues. They saw the Red Sea part. They got food in the desert, right? Like, their shoes never wore out. The pillar of fire in the day, or pillar of fire at night and club. Like, how can they forget? Like, how dare they? Like, what is wrong with them? And guess what? I am just like them. And I had that realization when I'm sitting here going, Lord, what am I going to do? And he said, did I not just deliver you? Yeah. In the most incredible of ways. So how dare he? Yeah, right. So now I think all of a sudden that this is all of a sudden just too big for him Oh Lord, but this is different this time. It's it's not the same So I think I kind of got my answer through as we're talking. It's like seek first his kingdom Yeah,

Curt: 31:38

well, that's what my granddad said too and we talk every couple weeks as listeners will know And he said God's past graces are a promise for his future ones. Like, he's not changing. He's not going to be like, Omar, I favored you there, but you tripped up. And because I'm not good enough to, like, take your sins away, you owe me something. For me, I'm really trying to, like, focus into What are you sanctifying me from or out of or into or whatever in this situation? Because I think ultimately when you look at every bad thing that happens in your life as a good opportunity to grow and be sanctified, like your mindset is just, it becomes more rock solid because good stuff is awesome. Praise God. And bad stuff is like, Oh, praise God. He's making me more like Christ. And ultimately that's what's going to, what's going to win. So I'm not saying this as someone who's like good at this, but that's what comes up for me now that I can like, Take my own life out of it and be like, Oh, of course, Omar, just trust him. Right, right. Easier said than done. But,

Omer: 32:35

but man, even as somebody who is, who felt compelled or the Lord asked me to start the podcast, my apparel company, whatever, it came in a vision. And even as I'm doing that stuff, there is stuff that's happening behind the scenes where I'm going through the exact same. Troubles and challenges that you guys are facing as well at a day to day level. And I'm, you know, I'm just sharing this just blah, like I, I'm having those moments even as we speak today. So, and it is, and what is really incredible is that man, he doesn't kick me out of, you know, my, it's not like he's looking at his book. He's like, Oh, Omar, how dare you, man. Okay. I'm crossing your name out of the Book of Life. Right. That is so powerful because, man, we, even us, people that are, you know, we feel like we're on a mission and yet we're struggling with things behind the scenes. Yeah. And so,

Curt: 33:37

well that, that's like I think that is potentially one of the most important failures of our society insofar as isolation goes. Because everyone's expected on the outside to have a perfect life. And if you don't, you assume that everyone's gonna think that you're a piece of crap. And so you just don't share what's wrong. And then you isolate and you don't want anyone to know what's real. And so that's part of this whole podcast is like, Hey, I was awful. Like, really, really bad. And if you're like that, there's hope. But also... And it's not like life just gets perfect because I figured it out, like, praise God. I figured this whole like family leadership thing out. And am I perfect? Obviously not. Do I know everything? Obviously not. There's so many levels that, pardon me, guys can still teach me, but I'm always confident that we're going to sort it out and I have most of the tools that I need now. But the truth of the matter is if you look at the day to day, it's still up and down and up and down and in and out and sideways. And sometimes you're like, how are we going to make it out of this? But I think what the victory that we're looking for is, is just how do you deal with that on a day to day basis? Like, can you bring it to the cross? Can you pray? Can you maintain your cool? Can you not yell at your kids when you're like super triggered? And if you do, can you then apologize and make it right? And so a lot of guys, I think when they're starting on this, like, so called healing or growth journey, they're like, Oh, one day I'm going to make it. And it's just going to be like easy sailing. And this conversation, like probably the goal of this now is just like, Hey, by the way, even if you are so successful, you'll still have days and moments and minutes and hours and weeks where you have no idea and everything's horrible, but you're not cratered by it and you're not judging yourself for it. And you're just like. I'm going to get through this too, but there is also that whole, what is it? There's no condemnation. For those that are in Christ Jesus. Yeah. Right. So what you're just saying about striking your, you know, name out and it's a different covenant. So like, yeah, if only these three guys were there, they would be the only ones who were saved. That was pre Christ. I don't know how much different that is, and I'm not a theologian, so like, far be it from me to assume, but, like, there's so much forgiveness

Omer: 35:44

now. It's like my son was saying, he's eight years old, he's like, Daddy, how come you had a vision and I don't get visions? Oh. And so, yeah, as he's talking to me, I'm like, Omar, yeah, you, you, you saw Jesus, right? He led you through a dark place and into... A way better place. You couldn't have done that on your own. And so I relate with these advice right now like you wouldn't believe. Because I am just as bad and just as forgetful. Because you know what, the other day when I was having steak for dinner and I'm thinking about, oh lord, I got this problem, I got that issue, come on, you know. And then I had this moment where I'm like, if this is my desert and I'm eating steak. And it's not just any old steak. It's a ribeye and it's grass fed. And I'm like, oh man, Omar, you need to get your, your bearings back right because this is desert. He's taking care of you in such a wonderful way. And you need to just fall on your knees right now and say, you know what, my kids are fed. I'm fed. Look at what I'm eating. And that should really be that should really be enough for you right now. But then I also battle at the same, in the same breath, it's like, Lord, you know, do you ever feel like you've got a long list of things that you want God to do and then you're like feeling guilty about it because you're like, well, I kind of want this and I kind of want that and, and these desires and you know, all the Bible says, you know. Pick up your cross and follow me like it's it's just for every verse there is about, you know You good you you have to suffer and then there's just as many verses as that say. Hey, he's your heavenly father He's got your best interest. He's gonna milk and honey and all this wonderful things that he's gonna do for you and Then I feel guilty asking him Yeah, but then like Lord if we're made in your image, then you put these desires in our heart, too So just help me To recalibrate like I don't for once in my life. I can say it confidently. I don't want it if it's not your desire for Because how many times do our kids come up to us with the rickety ridiculous demands and they want it now? It's like no, I'm not giving you ice cream 730 in the morning. I'm not gonna do it. I the season's changing you're gonna get sick If yeah, it's gonna be hot sunny day later. I'll give it to you in a few hours I'm not gonna give it to you at 730 in the morning And I have to really go, okay, Lord, if I'm asking you for something, which is the equivalent of me asking for ice cream, my kid's asking for ice cream at 7. 30 in the morning, and you're saying, no, not right now. It doesn't mean no, it just means not right now. So now my prayer is, okay, Lord, if it's not right now, then that's okay. I don't want it if you don't want it for me, because I know whatever you have for me is so much more superior than anything that I can ever conceive in my own mind, so help me recalibrate, and then give me the patience and the peace in the moment, because I'm an impatient person. I wanted yesterday, and so that's,

Curt: 38:45

yeah, that's kind of where, yeah, man, that's one of the things that we talked about at the Colorado Mastermind I went to with family teams was, Basically discipling your children's desires because he the, I can't remember whose presentation it was, but it was basically saying that we're really good at discipling our children's preferences. So, you know, I'm a, you know, Buffalo Bills fan. My sons are going to be Buffalo Bills fan. I like, you know, hot sauce on my pizza. My kids will like hot sauce on the pizza, whatever these preferences is, but what are the desires underneath that? And are we good at discipling our kids desires? And the reason I say that is because I think what I'm getting from you is like you're basically just allowing God to disciple your desires as a son. And I think that's wonderful because, like, so much of what we want is, I think, often out of the wickedness of the flesh and the heart and all that kind of stuff. Like, I want, and it's because I want to feel this way, and I want to feel safe, and I want to do it my way, God. But what if I just had my actual desires discipled by you? Like, what do you want from me? Like you said, knowing that it's so much better. And then, how can then, because this is so awesome to be like a fatherhood thing, you get to see yourself as a son and your earthly and heavenly father, and then you get to see your kids, so how you're fathering, you can sort of like, keep that flowing downstream, where God's discipling your desires and then through you, he's discipling your kids desires. So anyway, I've been thinking about that lately. I'm not sure where that goes necessarily, but it's just like, I want to want the things that you want, and like the prayer of Jabez. I think it's called. He says like, may your hand be with me or something. And I was like, yeah, let me like, let me just do it your way, God, because that's going to be way better than my way.

Omer: 40:30

But that's hard. Well, speaking of children following, my kids don't like hot sauce. My

Curt: 40:36

kids love hot sauce. Maybe it's the Scottish and the Welsh in them. I don't know. Very likely. But

Omer: 40:43

man, like, so talking, getting back to desires again, and, you know, there was a time. I wanted a super car like I just and if I'm being honest, it was all for all the wrong reasons. Yeah, right now I want a place of my own. I want a house of my own. I Want it on land? I mean land is such a big theme in the Old Testament, right? Yeah, and I often ask myself or I told when I'm talking to Lord, I'm like, okay What are these your lights do to deserve the milk and honey land? Like what do they do? That thing, they complained, they whined, in fact, God calls them a stiff necked people, right? Look at the trials that came on them because they just refused to listen. But he still gave them land. Called the promised land, right? Like, just, he says in Samuel, and for a second, I don't know, it's in one of those books where he's like, I'm gonna give you a land. That you don't deserve. It's got vineyards that you never planted. It's got, you know, fruit trees that you never, you never planted.

Curt: 41:46

Oh, we we just had some technical difficulties. And so we're back at a much lower resolution.

Omer: 41:51

And, and, and that enthusiasm is kind of... I think I was talking about the Israelites, right? Like, so God gave them this, this land of milk and honey. Yes. And they did nothing to deserve it. He gave it to them not because they were so good because he's so good, right? So I'm like Lord, and I don't know where your most of your viewership is But like if they only knew what real estate prices here, right? So when I'm praying and you talk about desires and oh, yeah I was saying how I prayed for supercars before and if so the wrong reasons, but now I'm praying for a house But I want it on land Some land doesn't have to be like 15 acres. It just some land. 10 is fine. Ten's okay. 50 would be better, but whatever. I want land. I want my own house. And here, here's my reasons, right? My, my wife is sick. I need a new place so she can recover. She can recover in the, in the space that got her sick. So I need it for that reason. I need it because man, I have this, you would talk about the gifts of the spirit. One of mine, I think is hospitality. I can't host people in my house right now. And it just, it just, it's so like, I'm just, it's not good for me. Yeah. Right. I want it to be a home that is open. It's got the space. Come everybody, you know, come for lunch, come for barbecue. Let's have Bible studies. Let's have prayer. I want it to be a place of refuge, a place of peace, a place where people gather. We eat, we drink, we, we, we talk, we share, you know, like that, that's why I want the house. So I'm like, if I'm asking my heavenly father whether he, he's operating in a space where there is no scarcity. Asking him, so why am I asking him for like, you know, an apartment that I think I can afford instead of a mansion that I know I can't afford up here but it's, it's, it's the same for him. Just like an extra zero, extra few zeros, no big deal. But I have to really check my intentions behind it. So it's not for vain reasons I want to take pictures in front and send it back home, right? So people can see. Oh yeah. He made it. He made it.

Curt: 43:58

He made it, right? Understood. We'll talk about that in a minute, baby.

Omer: 44:03

But so it's, it's, so now I'm like, Lord, I just want to bring my desires to you unabashedly like my children do. Because they don't come to me and say, hey daddy. I feel like ice cream, but you know, Baskin Robbins might be a little too much for you. Can we just get popsicles from a superstore? They don't do that. And yet, if I can, I would give them the best. I don't want them to have the red dye infested popsicles for 99 cents. I want them to have the better ice cream, right? So if I don't do it for my kids, and I think in Matthew somewhere it says where, which one of you? If your kid asks for bread, we'll give him stone. Yeah. Or something about a serpent too. If you, so then I have to just go. I'm like, Lord, okay, then I'm just gonna come to you, like my kids come to me. I'm just gonna ask, I'm gonna ask for the house, and I'm gonna ask for the land. And if it's a nod right now, then just let me know. Right. And then give you the patience. Yeah. In the meantime, to just wait. Yeah. But I'm done asking. As if, you know, I don't deserve

Curt: 45:05

it. Yeah, well, I think because, so you've shared that similarly to me before, and I'm trying my best to get more of that because we're now on like Ultra opposite ends of the spectrum and so sometimes when you're like, you know When your kids ask you and you just want to give it to them. I'm like No What do you mean? Because from like my growing up Experience was like don't you even like don't ask? Because like we don't have the money or it's not okay or whatever and like I don't even think that was maybe even fully true but my my memory of it and my feeling of it because I The best times I remember as a kid is going to like 7 eleven and getting five cent candy with my mom So like I know it's not fully true. Right, but there's something about Wanting something and asking for something that I find shameful in myself and I see that then in my kids I'm like don't you know how much trouble you're gonna get into if you ask for something like just Be like the guy in Proverbs or wherever it is who like sits far away at the end of the table so that the the king Or the ruler or the bride the groom Has to come and invite you to the spot of honor rather than like if you ask and someone says no and they're gonna think that you're like some spoiled brat or something like just never ask for anything, okay? And so when they ask, I'm like, excuse me? And I temper myself because I have to because even talking to you, I'm like, oh, you're supposed to want to give to them. That's so interesting. And so the other place that that brings me is Like, yes, I'm trying to now pray more like that, which is like, nothing's too big for you, if it's your will. Here's why I think, you know, my heart is in the right place. Same sort of thing. Like, I want a host. I want to have a place for my kids to run around. I want, yeah, just all these beautiful things. But in the back of my head, I'm like, well, like, what do you think if what he means by that is like, the places that he set for us in heaven? Because I read through this sometimes. I'm like, I can't remember who it was. Stephen or James or someone like that in Acts. One line, it's like, and he was killed. Right. And you're like, oh! So like, everything good happening doesn't necessarily mean in this life. I'm curious if that's ever been part of your thing because maybe just my scarcity mindset is like, I'll get nothing and like it in this life, but I do have a heavenly mansion and that's way better and I think that's like Probably good for everyone to understand that you don't need everything in this life because the eternal is so much bigger but I also think that I'm probably like Really underselling the positive joy and wonderful life that he could and probably wants to give me here So, how do you think about

Omer: 47:39

that? Well two thoughts come to my mind first of all this this whole asking and and then receiving abundantly I know my family wasn't very rich as well. Like we, I was aware at a very young age that they didn't have a lot, but culturally I come from a culture where it's not an individualistic culture where, so with our parents, what's theirs is yours. What's yours is yours. What's theirs is yours. Same with our grandparents. Like I was just telling my kids yesterday cause they were like, Oh daddy, we, so my dad just took us all out for dinner. And my kids, we went to this Afghan restaurant, and they all wanted lamb shank. It's the most expensive thing on the menu. It was like 36 bucks or whatever. And my dad said to me, before we got in the restaurant, Don't stop the kids from ordering, just let them order whatever they want. And so when we were driving back, my kids are like, Daddy, pops spend a lot of money and I felt bad asking and I was like, honey, let me tell you something. You know, I'm not saying grandparents here versus grandparents there. Like their love for their grandkids is any different. But I said, we come from a culture where they will do anything for their grandkids. And so I said, when you ask pops for You know, to go into the Afghan kitchen, I said he is happy, like it makes him happy that you're even asking him for you not to ask him would be sad for him.

Curt: 49:02

Okay Well, that's such a I was talking to Natalie about this this morning about how every generation over the last One to three, depending on what area of the world or how you look at it, has had to start from scratch, basically, in the West, insofar as the family is a unit of individuals. And the point is to launch out of the family and start your own individual unit, rather than be part of the whole. And that's when they talk about a family team. This is what I sort of was learning about in Colorado. But it's sad, because it's almost like we've lost wisdom from, like, millennia. Because if we have a family system that allows the grandparents to speak into the kids, and then the grandkids, and everyone's sort of around that family, and you want to, like, be together, then every generation starts knowing that they've got a support system, and they're taught, presumably, how to be a family. And here, it's almost like, I don't know, after World War II or something like that, we got very insular, and people stopped talking and like, helping the next generation in some way. I'm not sure, you know, culturally why that happened, but I'm sure there's a reason. But it's almost like since that time, Our parents, or at least my parents, probably started out not really knowing too much about, like, how to raise a family. And then I started out not knowing anything, or even that you could do anything to raise a family other than just go through the motions and suffer. And we just got a book the other day, I can't remember what it is it's called The Adventist Life or something like that. It's written by a Seventh Day Adventist. Around, like, how to Live your life around a Sabbath week, basically, and it's like, man, it would have just been normal at some time for you to be like, Sons, here's what I'm doing to, like, lead the family. You're going to be expected to do this and then we'll just help you as you grow and you get your own wife and kids. And, you know, daughters, here's how mother's running the house as the queen of the household. And we've just, like, lost that. And so every generation seems to be starting out from, like, scratch, completely devoid of any of the wisdom of their forefathers. And that's, like, no wonder we're in such dire straits here. It's, it's terrible. And so, you saying that that's, like, such a cultural thing makes me sad, in a sense, because I want that here with my kids. I want to be, like, Anything you want and with my grandkids like anything you want. Thank you for asking. I want to do. Yeah, so that's what that's what I'm aiming to do Like I want to be the patriarch when I'm 90 on our 15 plus acres that we're obviously going to get here I want to be on a rocking chair looking over my like hundred great grandkids being like, yes I am a good and faithful servant. This is what I wanted from life and I did well Loving leading and teaching all of them and it's got to start now because my kids are gonna be like Much better off than I was, I hope, in terms of just knowing that there's such a thing as like family leadership. But how then do I transmit that coming from a place of scarcity and that myself? I've got to be the first mover. I've got to be the rock. And that's hard for me because I want to be that and I want to be so me. I want to be so the reason why things happen. And like, going back to the very beginning of this conversation, I gotta lean on Jesus specifically. Like, I don't know if you picked it up last week. Brent pastor at our church. He said, there's nothing you can do to improve yourself. Right. You just bring it to Jesus and let him do the work. And that was like, oh man. That hit me so hard. Because that's what I've been doing for the last 10 years. Like, oh, I just gotta get better. I just gotta get better. I just gotta get better. And it's worked. But it never works all the way. You really do need to lean on the actual solid foundation, like it says in one of the Gospels. But I did want to ask you, I was thinking before the podcast, I was like, what should we talk about? Do we have anything? Is it going to be normal? Is it going to be natural? I was curious two things. One, what you see like in Pakistani culture that you think could be done better here and what you take from that as a father, but also like just your journey as a father, because I don't think we've ever talked about like the formative stages of like you first get married, you're having kids, like what was that like? So I'm kind of interested, culturally, like what do you see that you want to take from your culture? What did you not want to take from your culture? How do you look at that as like a first generation Western father now and a first generation Christian father? How are you looking through that lens culturally and what you want to do and don't want to do? Well,

Omer: 53:17

for starters, I'm not the best representation of a Pakistani

Curt: 53:21

anything. But you're

Omer: 53:23

from... Well, I am, yeah. I came here in 19, so I was quite young. And so when you look at... I've been here longer than I... So so yeah, it's true. I'm not the best representation other than just the way that I look. And and you will never meet a Pakistani like me. I've told you that several times as well. But, so the things I don't, you know, so as I'm talking about grandparents showering their grandkids with love and all this stuff. Yeah, that sounds really good as well. But isn't there somewhere earlier on the Old Testament where, where it says, man shall leave his father's house and we'll be, you know, so they're leaving that house in our culture. I think things are changing now or have changed now, but back then, man, I grew up with almost like a second set of parents because my grandparents lived with us and it was all fun and games while we were little, but it wasn't until we got older. And my mom started sharing some of the stuff that she had to go through in that. I'm so grateful that that, that, that is not part of my, like, my parents gave me the space to live my life the way I want it to live. And, you know, they didn't also, we didn't have a choice because they lived in Pakistan. I lived here. I left at 19. So there was all that gap in between. So even if they wanted to be involved, they couldn't be, but they never. Unlike most parents from our part of the world, they never interfered in my life. I mean, I married a Caucasian girl, which, believe it or not, when I was leaving Pakistan, all my relatives, this sounds awful, but all the wisdom they could impart on me, the one thing they all said to me was, don't marry a Caucasian girl. Wow. And I'm like, so I'm like, just because you said it, I'm going to. And my dad said, you know what, you marry whoever you want. My parents said that, marry whoever you want. So I did. And I'm so grateful that those family norms that most families have back home, they didn't like, my parents didn't interfere in our lives and they let us evolve. So I don't like, the joint family system has its perks where you know, you don't have to spend money for babysitting and, and your grandparents are there around your kids as you were saying earlier, it's like their influence on your children and all that stuff. That's wonderful. But the reality of a joined family is, is no good. So I'm grateful that that's not. So I've, I've taken the, the love of the family and just being around family. That's why I don't want to move too far away from the lower mainland because I want my children to be able to access their grandparents. Yeah. Daddy, can we go to Nana's house? Yeah, absolutely. If, if I'm on the East Coast once a year, if I'm, if I'm being honest. Yeah. So how many years do my, do their grandparents have left? Right. You know, we psych ourselves when we say, Oh, yeah, 10, 15 more years. If you're seeing them once a year, that's 10 more times. Yeah, that's outrageous. So I want them to know their grandparents, but with some distance. We're weak, you know, there's not

Curt: 56:25

that right. But like city distance, not like across

Omer: 56:28

the... No, absolutely. So, so there's that. And then, culturally, I love the fact that I have, and I don't know if, if, cause I've only ever shared this with you and you've, you know, I don't go around asking people how they shower blessings on their children or what their relationship with that is. So I don't

Curt: 56:44

know. I thought you were just going to say how they shower.

Omer: 56:47

What is this weird? Just shower blessings. So I just love that I grew up in a culture where, man, my grandparents loved, and I was also the first grandkids. So they would just. shower blessings like my, my grandmother or my mom's side had many other grandkids, but because I was the first and I like to think I was the favorite, she would hide mangoes because she knew it was my favorite fruit. And there was like 10 grandkids, but no, she was saving one for Omar. So I've, I've experienced that kind of love and blessing. So I can bring that and do that for my children. Because I know it's a little bit weird for Shannon too, how we relate with each other in terms of children and parents, and there's no boundaries. So I love that. So those are the two big ones. I don't and then, you know, now living a Christian life, which is so opposite to anything that I grew up with. So

Curt: 57:38

that's, that's a good plug for your podcast, actually. And I shared this on the email. But if you guys are listening to this the Union Apparel Podcast on YouTube right now. Yeah. Not on Apple yet. It's, it's gonna get there in a few days. Okay, so, so go to YouTube and search Union Apparel Podcast. Podcast. Yeah. Specifically. I am in the first episode as a host so that you can share your story. But it's crazy. And I was like, oh, should we go into that here? And maybe we should, like, just the little bits of it but it's wild, so I don't know if you want to, if you want to go into that, but what was the other question that I had

Omer: 58:12

before that? Well, you were saying how,

Curt: 58:14

you know, coming from the culture. Yeah, and then, like, into fatherhood. Like, I know you, so I had kids at 23, and you were 30 ish? 34. Oh, right, okay, because, yeah, our kids are the same age, mostly, within, like, a few months of each other. We started late. Right,

Omer: 58:33

did

Curt: 58:33

you know that you wanted to be a father, like, lifelong? Was it just like since you got married?

Omer: 58:40

No, I knew always that I wanted to be one. And I just, you know, I just had this conversation with my sister just a few days ago, where I've recognized that I left at 19. You know, you're still a kid at 19 in our culture, like you're living with your parents. I left at 19. And now I'm finally reunited with my dad after I'm 46 now and there's that gap in between and I recognize that I don't know my dad and I shared with my sister that I think I would want to get to know him but the person that I've become is so different than him. The person that left the house at 19. I mean, it's one thing if some, if you haven't seen your parents in many, many years, it's a whole other thing when you are now in a culture, you've embraced kind of the greater culture, but within that culture now you are living a lifestyle, you know, that you've embraced a faith that is, and coming from a Muslim country, man, like that, that you defecting on your faith like that, that's not, Yeah, it's not looked upon very favorably. It's not like they're sending their blessings to me. And this podcast is the very first time it's become public. Before that, it was just my family and friends that knew what I did, right? So, so I want, I have this desire to get to know my dad again. But the thing is the last couple times where I've had these encounters with him where I tried to show a side of me you know, We're on a bit of a collision course. We have to agree to disagree. And when he voiced his opinion and it felt almost like scolding me a couple of times and this 46 year old man went right back to being 12 or 13 being scolded by his dad. And I just kept quiet because I didn't want to share anything. And then I'm like, man, if he goes tomorrow, that's it. The connection that my children have to my side of the family is gone. I only have few memories. I want them to get to know their grandfather, but maybe I should get to know my dad. But not as a dad and a kid sitting down together, as two grown ups, where I want to share the most, I want to share my life with him, but I don't want to have to censor things out because I feel like he's going to get offended or it's going to trigger him. And I don't want to feel like I'm a 13 year old kid again being schooled by his dad. So it's this new relationship. I don't know how to quite approach it other than a cup of coffee. Let's sit down. Hey, I'm Omar, your son. Let's get to know each other. Right. So I'm excited about that journey. I'm also a little bit, actually, I'm quite a bit scared too. Because he doesn't, he knows fragments, but he doesn't know. And everything that I do now is coming through this lens of, of Jesus. Yeah. How do I filter that out? How do I tell him a story and, like, take the very filter that everything's going through off? Man, I feel that. So, but I'm excited about it too. Yeah. You know, just to get, getting to know him and hopefully, you know, the, the Lord, he worked on me, right? Yeah. He never gave up on me. Ten years of the Holy Spirit just kind of gently nudge, nudge, nudge until just the doors were just broken down, right, with a battering ram and, and here I am. So I'm hoping that through these. Conversations and experiences that maybe not maybe that's our prayer is the Holy Spirit will work on their hearts and they would come into the fold as well. So that's a chapter that I'm really excited to get into. And as far as my story goes, man, like I always feel a bit like, you know, I'm gonna start hogging the time because it's a powerful story. And yet, what can I say? I'm so grateful. I'm so grateful. I did nothing. I honestly did nothing. Do deserve what I have now. It was by his grace. There are millions of people in Pakistan. It's a predominantly, it is a Muslim country. He, he had his hand on me.

Curt: 1:02:43

Why? I don't know. But,

Omer: 1:02:48

I don't know. I, I, I, I'll have you, if you want me to go a certain direction, let me know because I, I feel like. This is such a vast topic. It's like the pastor saying to me on, on that Sunday, Hey, share your story in five minutes. I'm like, how much time? Five minutes. I'm like, Okay. Yeah. It can't be

Curt: 1:03:04

done. Yeah. Well, I, I almost want to like circle back to what we were just talking about in two ways. Number one, like that feeling of distance with your dad. Do you ever think about that with your sons? Like, how will I make sure that doesn't happen? Or is it just like, we're always going to be close to each other. Therefore, I don't even think about it. No,

Omer: 1:03:22

no, I, I, that is probably my biggest fear because I've inherited it. If that's even if you inherit certain qualities of your parent, I'm very much like my dad in a lot of ways and I'm grateful that I have a partner who doesn't have the exact same mindset as me where she's tempering that side of me because I'm very aware that if I don't, if I'm not intentional about my relationship with my boys, that it's going to end up being the same, I'm going to not break that chain. That chain is going to continue on. And he just, I think and I'm no expert on this. I just think his parents weren't very loving. So he didn't know how to love doesn't mean he didn't have love. He just didn't know how to express it. And sometimes I feel like that as well. So I forced myself to tell my kids that I love them. And if I make a mistake, I hug them and I tell them I'm sorry I made a mistake because otherwise that Unhealthy patriarchy that's that's ingrained in us. Well, you don't question authority. You don't question your dad, whatever Then yeah, that would inevitably lead them to where I feel like I am right now. Yeah, man

Curt: 1:04:29

the There's something in that patriarchy triggered a question, but I'm curious before any story and again Union apparel podcast search that to listen to like the whole thing because that's it's beautiful Going back into like getting into parenting though, where was your mind at where you're like, Oh, this is gonna be so easy. Like, I know exactly what I'm going to do. Was it like planned? Did you know exactly how you were going to lead into that? What was your fatherhood like thinking as you let

Omer: 1:04:59

into it? From day one, it was like, I don't know what I'm doing. You know, I'm like, we buy a fridge, it comes with like a manual this big, you buy a camera, your microphone, right? Comes with a manual. And yet you have children, they don't come with an instructional manual. And you know, this is really difficult for me to say, and my wife says this to me sometimes when, when I get angry and I get in an angry state with my children, she said that one of the reasons I married you, because you were the most kindest, most gentlest person that I, that I know, and I didn't think there was a bone in your body that was angry and I didn't think that bone existed until I had my children. Yeah. And even then it didn't come out right away. It was when we were really squeezed financially where I started a business and things were dark. Like, I mean, man, that was a dark, dark, dark phase of our life and we weren't sharing anything with anybody. And that's one of the reasons why Shannon got sick is because she was keeping all that stuff in, didn't have anybody to talk to. Something happened. It was almost like this dormant gene and it just kind of. Something flipped in my head. And so I, now I do struggle if I'm being honest. I struggle with, with anger with my, with my children. And most days it's fine. And then some, you know, if the pressures are building and it's got nothing to do with children either. Or sometimes it does where I'm seeing something done loudly. Stop yelling at your brother, but you're yelling at me. Yeah, but it doesn't matter. I'm your dad. And then when they talk back, that's a cultural thing. You don't talk back to your parents. So that triggers me even more when I really think about it. The eight year old is right. Why are you yelling at me, daddy? And you're telling me not to yell at my brother. I should just be able to take that as constructive criticism and go, you're right. But no, I get triggered even more. So parenting, by far, has been the most difficult thing that I've ever undertaken. Most days I think I'm failing at it, and then there's other days I look at it and I'm like, Okay, you know what? It's not so bad. Yeah, well,

Curt: 1:07:07

no, and it really isn't that bad. I mean, the reason that we are even... friends is because your son was friends with my son and then like they were such good boys and like you're obviously doing enough right that they're wonderfully sweet boys and there are some of the few that we're like of course you guys can go do like whatever you want with them because there's some kids in the circles where we're like let's maybe like not go at the same time as those they don't have to connect so you know So, whatever, neither here nor there perhaps. But yeah man, that was like the exact same thing for me and is constantly the thing that I'm battling up against. And yet, what a beautiful gift. Like, we're constantly being stretched and like pushed against as the boundaries of our kids. And we're gonna, like, they're gonna touch us places that hurt. And this is sort of, like, the way I put it is almost like It's like a two stage process to get better at this, or at least it was for me, which is number one, when they do something that triggers you, it's because it hits a pain point in you that is unresolved. Okay, well, let's say you have a broken leg and you keep stepping on that pain point, the leg, you're going to be like, oh man, you're going to scream out in pain. So the first thing I like to do is try and get off that leg. So it's like, okay, let's build some processes. So I like to breathe and I like to state my emotion. Like guys, I'm getting really angry right now. Deep breath, go away, do some push ups, whatever. That's like the crutch to get off. I guess this is just, I'm not talking to you. I'm just talking to him.

Omer: 1:08:33

Maybe I'll take that information second hand. I'm like, yeah, Shannon. I talked to Kurt while he was talking to the audience, but I took some notes.

Curt: 1:08:40

But, but once you get like off that, it's not like it just heals on its own. It might heal like. The bones might be misaligned, so you might need some surgery on that broken leg. So, once you no longer scream every time you walk on it, which is to say, like, your kids trigger you, but you don't lash out at them all the time I like to, like, go in and do a little bit of surgery. And that's usually just going, like, what is the thing that triggers me here? And I've had, like, a lot of the guys we work with, we do trigger journals. So you just write down for a week or two weeks all the times you were upset, triggered, angry, whatever, and then go look at it two weeks later, and it's like, oh, when they talk back, when they talk back, when they talk back, when they, oh, why, why is that the thing? And you just ask yourself why. And it's like, well, it's disrespectful. Well, like, why do you care? Does, like, little kids make you feel disrespected when you're a grown man? Like, well, I don't feel like a grown man. Well, oh, what does that mean? And then you've got to go back to, like, what is my relationship with my father? So I'm not saying we need to go and, like, dig deep and find the inner child and, like, the divine self, because that's BS, it's woo woo, whatever. But there is reality, I think, to the way that God's made the world that the way we are is based on the way our parents are and how they treated us. That's like, I would say in my experience, like 95 percent of why people are the way they are. And then there's bullies and there's like big traumatic events and stuff like that that shape people too. But mostly it's just like you're upset with them because you still have some unresolved thing about how your parents treated you and you don't feel good about it so you're going to lash out at your kids. accidentally. So, if that's you listening do some journaling. Find out why that thing is. Go back and like ask why, why, why, until you hit bedrock of, oh, it's because I never felt like heard by my dad. And that's... You know, my entire story. It's just like, yeah, I feel like a three year old. Like, my whole thing was, I feel like a three year old, and he just wants his mom and his dad to be bigger than him, and that's never been the case, so I'm trying to find that in the world, and I'm lashing out, and I'm lashing out, trying to get control of the situation that I have no control over. Anything, are you like, are you dealing with anything else in terms of like what you're excited about or where you're going for the rest of the year? Like, are you crushing it on the work front right now? Are you getting back into that? Yeah,

Omer: 1:10:43

work tends to slow down over the summer, so it's starting to pick back up again and work's work. I'm really excited about this, this podcast. I, I, I keep thinking about it. I keep that, that's where most of my, my attention is going right now. And my wife has to tap me on the shoulder. Hey, let's not forget about your primary source, right? Like bread and butter. Right. So it's... It's toggling both at the same time, but I'm super excited about the podcast. I you know, just even interviewing people and hearing their faith journeys, whether it makes it onto the podcast or not, I feel like when I am not doing it, it almost feels like I start veering away, like it keeps me calibrated because people have gone through some tremendous. It's life events, and they've come out on the other side with their faith intact. And that's beautiful. So I, I love hearing the stories and I want to be able to share them in a way that it impacts other people. Like right now, I don't know if it's the age or what, but I'm thinking more legacy than just the immediate. I want, what am I, what, what are people going to remember me by? Or. Does my work even matter? So if one person hearing something the guest said, or I said, and they take that and it impacts them, that's, that to me right now at this stage of life is more exciting than, you know, hey, let's go to Hawaii for a week or whatever. Although that would

Curt: 1:12:00

be really nice as well. Okay, so what has it been like becoming a creator, so to speak? And I know you've got like two lives, so how has that felt compared to everything else you've

Omer: 1:12:09

done? Well, technically, I'm not really the creator. I was the creator of my story, the first episode. Everything else, I feel like other people are sharing, lending to the, you know, the, the vision. So, it's, I'm still battling the the part of me that wants to look good on camera, that wants to be articulate, that wants to like, you know, make sure I'm sitting, you know, there's the vain kind of narcissistic stuff. And then, man, I've been really focused on all the analytics going back there all the time. And I really had to, I had, I had to go into prayer the other day. I'm like, Lord, okay, it was your idea initially. And I'm just following through. So please just take the pressure of algorithms and optimizations off and just let it happen. grow. So I feel like I've let that one go a little bit, although I was optimizing videos yesterday. But yeah, I just wanted to reach whoever it needs to be, because it's a non monetized channel, right? I don't want it to be monetized. Here we are in the middle of something super deep and out comes the, you know, an ad for Cialis or whatever. And it's just, I don't want that to happen, so.

Curt: 1:13:16

Yeah, I mean, well, the, this, it's such an awesome thing, though, to go from, like, no idea to, like, your whole story and then, like, the thing, like, your shirts and stuff like that with the story behind them and then Like it's just it's like I told you it is such an awesome project like there's gonna be coffee table books Of like the the shirts people modeling the shirts while they're like going through their hard stories and big glossy pictures and I can see this thing Being massive in a way that I think we need right now because like you were talking about the hope that comes from it like I've heard your story like I don't know ten times now and every time I'm like, okay Tell it like tell it longer like go go deeper this time because it's so Awesome to hear these and I think maybe that's part of what this is Now is I just want to give people a glimpse into what it looks like To think the way we're thinking where I think we're both trying to really make Faith number one and I should say like more explicitly like Jesus number one because I think that's you know We beat around the bushes. Oh, yeah faith this all my faith journey my spiritual journey, and it's either Jesus or nothing Yeah, like it has to be And I hope that's encouraging people. I know I've lost tons of people following this since the you know 98 99 podcasts in I was like, oh by the way Christian fatherhood now and everyone's probably like, what? So I'm hopeful there's some people in the crowd listening who are like, actually that was impactful for me. But yeah, I just want to like get across to people. This is the messiness. Like we are in kid having season right now. And it's going to be so messy. And you look, I was thinking about, or I saw this podcast with a guy. And he was talking about when he started his company and he's like 50 something now. And he like, he didn't even start his first company until he was like 38. I was like, Oh, dude, like I am really trying to grab, I'm trying to squeeze something out of this like unripe orange that if I just let it ripen for 10 more years, I'll have everything I want. So anyway, this is probably super messy. I don't know if this is useful at all, but But I got, I

Omer: 1:15:13

got to say one thing too, you know, as you're, you making the plug for the podcast, I got to tell you, man, like this podcast would not exist if it wasn't for one of these conversations. I mean, this is, this, this one happens to be on camera. I don't know if you remember, I distinctly remember, I have the notes, we're sitting down, I'm expressing my frustration about Union Apparel, where I'm, I feel like something so irreverent that God put on my heart, divine blueprint, I didn't think of it, and now I have it, and any kind of conventional ways to market it, I feel like it's cheapening, cheapening what that is, and so it was in that frustration where I, we were having coffee and I was sharing that with you, And then I remember you asking me, so if you could do anything, like, what would you be doing? I'm like, I just want to have a microphone and whatever. I just want to hear people's stories. And then you're like, just do it. And I can't believe that from that conversation to a week next week, we were in the studio recording the first episode. So I actually want to, you know, I want to thank you for, for pushing me because I'm a perfectionist and there's a whole other, you know, perfectionists are just people that are scared of taking action. So we. This is the first time where I did something where I felt completely unprepared. So, so thank you for pushing me that this thing is even live because we had that conversation. Thank you. Thank you for that.

Curt: 1:16:31

The power of dad work coaching. Sign up today. Oh man, I don't even know what time it is. It's 1047. We've been at this for an hour and a bit probably. I mean, anything else real? I want people, I just want people to go to your thing. So I'm gonna link in the show notes dad. org slash podcast as well as in the YouTube which we'll put this up on. Go look at the first episode and then subscribe, smash that like button on Omar's podcast on YouTube and yeah, anything else, any other like pressing concerns or...

Omer: 1:17:03

I said, next time we do this, let's get some croissants and let's get,

Curt: 1:17:06

well, hey, you said something about hospitality, and when I opened the door... The door, you were hoping... Yeah, I was like, oh, he's sitting in his car for a while, like, those coffees are gonna get cold, and then you came empty handed, and I was like,

Omer: 1:17:15

okay. Hey, the North American culture has taken its toll on me. That's

Curt: 1:17:20

right. Next time, you know, I've got a kitchen right here if you want to whip something up. So okay, I think that's probably

Omer: 1:17:26

good. Yeah, no, I think this is kind of fun. You know, it's, it's funny, the whole idea of, and my cultural references these days are just lost on people, and I'm glad that you, they weren't completely lost on you, but when I, you know, this made me think of Seinfeld, and how it was called a show about nothing, but I'm like, this could be a show about everything. Yeah. Right, like we are in that season, but there's so much going on. And sometimes it's. It's like, I don't know, like today Shannon's like, what are you guys going to talk about? I'm like, I don't know. I don't know. But this feels just like, other than the really bright light shining on me, it feels like we're sitting in a coffee shop talking about our life and yeah, it's messy, like you said. And then you shared something. I'm like, Oh, I gotta take some notes and then, you know, I'm going to think about this and I'm going to incorporate. So this is great. It's, it's iron sharpening iron. It's just sometimes even just talking about what's going on. Yeah. Makes you feel. It's so

Curt: 1:18:18

important. Like, that's what I tell the guys all the time. I'm like inside of our group, I'm like, talk like you're here in a coaching call or in the Slack talk. Because what it does for me, is it like, it relieves the pressure of the like FAF, the stuff on top that doesn't really matter. And then it clears me up. And then I'm like. Oh, there's that one thing deep inside underneath all that that really needs to come up and couldn't unless I had talked about all the other stuff first, and then sometimes I just like think while speaking. So yeah, it's super important. If you guys don't have a place where you can do that, I highly encourage you to find a men's group, a church group, something like that. Go deeper with a friend. Just like instead of talking about business, business, business, or the weather, or like sports, just be like, hey bro, how's your walk going? It's like, what do you mean? I don't know your walk with Jesus. Like, how's your family? What is your marriage like? Are you guys on the same page? Just Be the one to ask, because what's the worst that can happen? He might be like, no, I'm not going to talk about that, you nerd. And then, like, you've lost a friend you shouldn't have wanted in the first place. But what probably is going to happen is he's going to be like, wow, nobody's ever asked me that before. Do you talk to people like that?

Omer: 1:19:20

You know, it's funny, you said that my wife just showed me a testimony the other day. And I'll share it with you as well. It's this guy who had decided to commit suicide. He wrote his notes to his dad, his brother, his buddy, like these really heartfelt and like, just when at the note part, I'm like in tears. And he said that he, he put everything down. He went to the Golden Gate Bridge to commit suicide. And he said all the way that he was going there, he just wanted somebody to ask him how he was doing. He just wants somebody to stop him and take an interest in him. And he said it didn't happen. He said, up until the time that I jumped. I just wanted somebody to ask me. I didn't want to do, I wanted to do it, but I didn't want to do it. So I don't want to wreck the story. You could, you could take a listen, but what happened after he jumped, man, it was miraculous what happened and what went down. How many times we pass people they just want to be acknowledged. They just want somebody to ask them how they're doing. So, you know, sometimes guys put on this front. Oh, yeah No, they really do want to engage. They just don't know how to do it.

Curt: 1:20:30

That's right And then I like to lead with vulnerability whenever possible like at church the other day There's people in front of us and they're like, hey, how are you doing? I was like I could say fine and ask how you're doing when I'm like, I'm actually like In the pits right now, and I feel like God's dragging me along the coals so that he can like sanctify me But it sucks and they're like, oh what's going on? And I talked to them. They're like, thanks for sharing that Like that was so good And so what I try to do in my conversation is just like I just decided many years ago in men's group I was like, I'm never gonna care With the deepest stuff what people think about me, I'm only gonna care what people think about me on the outside who don't know me and so I gotta look perfect, which is the dumbest thing. But, like, if you can be the one leading with the vulnerability, the authenticity, like, just do that and people will see that, oh, it's okay to do that and you'll just be the first one to lead the way. So yeah, hopefully this is useful. I think what I would really love, if you've made it this far, Dear listener, if you have made it this far, if you're on Spotify, there should be like a little Q& A thing down at the bottom of the episode that's like, what did you think of this episode? Please let me know because podcast is like a black box. You have no idea what the analytics are. You have no idea how far people are listening. You have no idea if people even like it. I can only tell how many people are listening. And that's nice because we've got, you know, 15, 000 plus people listening every week. That's amazing. And thank you guys for that. Please share it with any other dads you think need this. But I really want to know what you're thinking about podcasts lately because it's going to become probably the main focus of everything we do. And I'm going to really try to go quote unquote pro with it and do my best to make it amazing. And so I want to know what you think about this episode. I had a really casual chat with Heston a week or two ago. I did a Q& A episode last week. I'm just trying things right now and I'm hopeful that it's edifying to you that you'll come along for the ride. So yeah, let me know on Spotify, find me on dad work dot kurt on Instagram. Email me kurt@dad.work. And again, this on YouTube subscribe, Smash, that like button. That's right. Always wanted to say that. And make sure to click the link below to find Omar's podcast as well. Thanks for coming on, man. It's been

Omer: 1:22:40

fun. Thanks for having me. Yeah, it's good. It's awesome. Okay,

Curt: 1:22:43

Peace.

DadWork

Navigating Faith and Family as a Christian Father - Omer Mahmood

DadWork

Navigating Faith and Family as a Christian Father - Omer Mahmood

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