Episode 2

On the latest MentorCity podcast, we’ll find out how mentoring helped Alice, a woman in a predominantly male field, climb the corporate ladder. Now, 30 years later, she’s a senior vice-president and chief corporate officer at one of the world’s leading mining companies. Throughout the early years of her career, Alice faced unconscious biases in the workplace, but she learned how to overcome these challenges through mentorship.

For more information on Alice, you can view her full Biography here.

Transcript

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Brian  0:00  
Over the last number of years, society has made a real push in inclusion within all workplaces, whether that be based on race, gender, or even sexual orientation, companies are finally starting to listen. Today we're going to focus on an inspirational woman who started working in the primarily male dominated industry of mining, she's going to tell us about her experience growing up her experience, being a mentee. And also being a mentor, she's going to share with us her experience with unconscious bias, and how that has affected not only her personal life growing up, but also her work life and how she was able to get through all that using mentoring to her advantage. This is the mentor city podcast.

Unknown Speaker  0:55  
I started in the mining and nuclear industry over 30 years ago, I was a market analyst. So I was actually still a graduate student during completing my master's degree. And frankly, I took the job, looked it up and said, Oh, this seems interesting. I might do this for a couple years and see what else comes along. But I had very little knowledge of what it actually was like, what was the mining industry when I joined it 30 or 40 years ago, and very few women in the industry. And in the company itself.

Unknown Speaker  1:27  
This is Alice, she has worked as a senior vice president and chief corporate officer for the last 10 years.

Unknown Speaker  1:35  
Well, I was born in quill Lake, Saskatchewan, the town has 500 people. And it's that includes the cats and dogs. But it's a very small little village in Saskatchewan. My parents immigrated from China. So my dad was here in 49. And my mom came over in 59. And so I was raised in that I'm one of seven children, I'm the third of seven. And so they had a very high expectation for their kids that they wanted. They owned a restaurant in the town, and they really wanted their kids to, you know, succeed and do better and not have to work in the restaurant, I think. And so we were very much encouraged, also encouraged to go. required to go to university. And so it was it was a it was we didn't have very much growing up, we were quite, you know, we had I mean, I don't know, obviously, it's a, it's a tough time back then. And we didn't have very much. And so I think from my parents, they were very much focused on the idea that we had to get jobs that we can support ourselves. And so my mom is for someone and back then I she would say to me, and to all of us, like to the girls is three sisters, the three of us, women, and she would say you need to get an education and get a job, and don't depend on a man for your money. So you need to do that. And you can do that. And make sure that you know what's happening with the money because that's important. And so I mean, that seems like common sense today. But back then coming from someone so emotional was like, wow, okay. And so we growing up was a bit of a no, you know, it's like when you're first generation, right? And so my parents kind of raised us kind of old school, you know, from their their world. And so that meant that boys gonna have a certain pecking order in our family, especially the oldest son. And I mean, if I can just share with you something that I find funny now, my oldest brother and I both went to university at the same time, he's 10 years older than me, we're both in university and we lived in separate places and my parents would come up and visit us and they would bring him things like roast beef roast chicken, pies and stuff and then they come and see me and like every no such grand grandiose food gifts. So one time I finally asked him I said, How come you never bring me any food? I'm just curious. And they both looked at me and they said, Well, you you know how to cook. Like your brother doesn't want to cook your girl you want to cook and I thought well hey, I don't want to be I can't afford beef like I'm eating like Kraft Dinner at this point. So so that was their that was their kind of but unconscious biases that obviously I know how to take care of myself and so it was very strange. I was kind of from that kind of beginning and I have always like I've worked from the time I was like when I was little I'd be helping clean clean and sweeping do dishes and and in a cafe that there was a lot of dishes you know so then then I started waiting tables and working the registered cash register and and at a very young age my 14 I think my I was doing like taxes and stuff for my dad. Kind of well Not not the serious income taxes, but you know, other taxes that restaurants had to do. I don't remember them. But I look back now and think, you know, good grief, what are your What are you doing relying on 14. So it is kind of a different upbringing that, you know, I had, but I was very focused. So to me, was always financial stability, that was my key concern growing up and through all of my life working.

Unknown Speaker  5:26  
So as you just heard from Alice, during grad school, she started working for a very big mining company, I asked her what the response was, like, from her male colleagues, upon those first couple of years of starting her career,

Unknown Speaker  5:39  
what I've kind of summarized it in my own mind, as is that there was this kind of strange dynamic where my male colleagues had a certain expectation of how women behave. And so it was kind of this is the norm for how women behave. And if you were outside that expectation, then it could become challenging. And so I'll give you a couple of examples that come to mind. And so when I got married back in 1989, I chose not to change my surname. Now, it isn't that I have some big philosophical, you know, ideological thing about changing my surname. I am a practical person. And so I am also a little bit humor, my husband, I discussed it, and I said, Well, if your name was much better than mine, then I would take it if it's not, and I'll just keep it. So we did, we agreed that his was about people's mind. So I left it. And it's a lot of paperwork, right. So I didn't change it. And so my male colleagues in particular, there was kind of a range of reactions. So curiosity, to, I would say, almost, I don't want to say hostile, but a little bit angry. So when I got some of the questions, and on the more of the angry side was, so are you one of those feminists, and I would always be a little bit taken aback. And so finally, I started to, to reply with a bit of humor and say, Oh, do you mean one of those feminists that think that women should get paid the same amount of money for the same job as an ad, then yes, I'm one of those feminists. Another thing that comes to mind is, I recall, and it's a funny, kind of a funny story. It was one of my first industry conferences. And so we got my VP was their manager. And he, my VP was actually one of those technical fellows and not full of humor operate that way. And so he was introducing me to a number of contacts. And one of them said, Oh, well, she's kind of cute, and she's smart. And my VP looked kind of puzzled, actually. And he said, Well, she wasn't smart, we wouldn't have hired her. And this was all set in front of me like I was invisible. So with things like that, that I was outside the norm, I guess. And so it was a bit it was a bit discouraging at the beginning, but I learned to kind of deal with it with humor eventually.

Unknown Speaker  7:53  
So that was Alice's first couple of years in the industry. She kept working, she kept raising the ranks, and then her company opened up a mentoring program.

Unknown Speaker  8:02  
So I think that the my first experience as a mentee was with the company's newly refreshed Leadership Development Program. And that was in the mid 90s, sometime very structured mentor mentee relationship. And it was a setup by the program director, the participants weren't consulted.

Unknown Speaker  8:22  
Just a quick sidebar on that last point Alice made about participants not being consulted. If you're thinking about opening up a mentoring program, make sure you talk to your members about it. First, let them know what they're in for let them know the benefits of being a mentor and a mentee and make sure they're willing to participate, you're not going to get the results that you're expecting. My best advice would be to train or host an orientation for your participants to let them know what they're in for what they're expecting out of the program.

Unknown Speaker  8:55  
And so it felt a little artificial and a little bit awkward. But because it was structured in this manner, it gave each participant exposure to an executive. And that could be good or bad, depending on how your mentoring went.

Unknown Speaker  9:10  
So now Alice is involved in this program, and she is getting mentored by a couple of her colleagues. I asked Dallas if she ever had a negative mentoring experience. But I quickly learned that she does not like using those terms. She always finds a way to spin a negative into a positive. And I think this next story really exemplifies that.

Unknown Speaker  9:33  
There's always a gem that you can find there that maybe will help you with your career. And I wasn't always so Pollyanna about all this for sure. I've learned to look for the bright side of things as I got older. So one example that I can think of is when I was the director of our Investor Relations program, and my mentor, who was arranged for it was another one of those arranged ones and my mentors summed it up by saying, I feel like I should be asking you to bring me coffee. So that was and that was kind of his advice. I mean, well, that was his observation. And I said, so is it because my manager is a man? And he said, No, that's not it. But they didn't have any other explanation. So I was pretty convinced that it was a gender thing. So I was annoyed, for sure. But after setting aside sort of my bias, and I thought, Okay, let me think about this. Let's look at my managers, let's observe him. And I decided I would kind of watch him in action. And I was training him. So it was, you know, easy to do. And I wanted to know, did he portray himself more confidently did he do things that I didn't do. And so, when I looked at it, I came to the conclusion that my manager was a six foot tall man with silver gray hair, and he was very distinguished looking. And I am, as you can see, a boy can't see this. I'm a five foot four, Chinese woman. And back then he brought its own, I'd say unconscious bias, or maybe unconscious bias, hard to say. And I think it was a stereotype and to think about this, and this sounds terrible, but think about a Chinese woman meekly following three steps behind her husband kind of vibe. And so I thought, did I act subservient? Or was there an unconscious bias that led people to view me under a certain lens? So I didn't know. But I thought, that's something for me to know that that could be the first impression of me, but then might have to overcome. So that was kind of the gem I took away with it, I might have to work a little harder to demonstrate that I was assertive, or that I was confident. And so that this, that's how it affected me. At first, I was just mad, to be very, very honest. I was just mad. And then I thought, okay, you know, what can you do? Watch what you're doing. And if you're doing things that make you look subservient, as my mentor said, Stop. So that's the gym,

Unknown Speaker  11:54  
I took away, continuing on with another mentor,

Unknown Speaker  11:57  
or one thing that my mentor said that really stuck with me was you say your story too much said you say it every time you ask a question, or you're, you're challenging an idea. He said, You don't have to apologize every time you do that said you are knowledgeable, and you're respectful when you ask. So saying sorry, sort of takes away from what you're asking or what you're saying. And he's right. It's very true. I think that the issue of confidence that certainly confidence presents, that kind of thing is a bit of a challenge for a number of women. And we're not women as generally are not as confident in their own abilities to do things. And I know that it can hold us back. And I didn't do many things in my life, because I didn't think I was ready to do it. I didn't feel like I had enough knowledge and have no experience. And so I think we have to be careful that we don't let that kind of overrule everything that we're doing and and you can be can be confident and not arrogant. Right? So that's part of the whole balancing. And then another matter a woman, she said, she used to say to me, before you present, you should look, try look taller, you know that really? What do you what did why does that matter? I knew what she meant after like, like, kind of unpack it a little bit. And what she meant was when I'm presenting, and I used to have trouble with this, and I probably still do is that you don't present with authority, you don't present with competence, you don't have presence when you're presenting. And so I said to her after I took I did take some training that. And I said to you know, I can't do much about being taller. But I certainly can do more about having a bit of presence when I'm doing a presentation. So that really stuck with me, because first it was kind of wacky advice. What do you mean look taller. But you know, after I impacted, it was very helpful to me. So there's a couple of examples where I found it really useful. And they stuck in my mind.

Unknown Speaker  13:51  
Not only was Alice a mentee, but eventually she also became a mentor herself.

Unknown Speaker  13:56  
Yeah, I've mentored men and women over a number of years. And I think, you know, the results that I've seen in different cases is that when you see that people are focused on their strengths, and they overcome the weaknesses that they have. And everybody we all have weaknesses that we have to come in. And it is really being comfortable with the strengths that you have. And because they can certainly help you overcome some of your weaknesses. And I think that my when I feel the most success like that it's been successful. Put it that way, is when people feel like they've been heard, and that you've helped them. And so sometimes it's just the feeling that they feel like that someone else has heard them. They know what they're saying, and, and that they've helped them kind of guide their career and it's without judgment. And I'd say some people are much more open to the idea of, you know, making changes. And sometimes it's things that shouldn't matter, but it does. It's it's a it's a challenging thing. So just as an example Sometimes if you're mentoring someone, and it might be the way they dress, and it's in, you know, sometimes you could say, That's okay, if you were working in the film industry, you can dress like that. But you're working in a mining company, which is pretty conservative. And you probably have to dress a certain way. And that's not to hold you back. But it's just to be seen in a certain way to progress in your career. I think that's changed a lot these days. And certainly, with the pandemic, and everybody working from home, that whole idea of business has gone out the window, quite frankly, probably come back, but very casual these days. So it's really is that for me, the biggest, I guess, reward is when I see someone progress to that next level, or they even take a job in a lateral move, because sometimes you just have to take a job that doesn't involve being promoted. But it gives you a whole different learning experience. And it's adding that to the background of your knowledge, and it adds to your foundation. And it just all prepares you to move into the next stage of your career. And it's good when people can see that and just take that opportunity, and even encouraging people where they take the opportunity. Some women are very like, Oh, I'm not ready, I can't do that. And so you know, I think you are just just try it, just put your name in, you know, see what happens, you can always say no. And so those kinds of things are really rewarding just to see people grow, I guess would be how I look at it.

Unknown Speaker  16:26  
So we've heard from Alice being both a mentor and a mentee, how does she feel this helped her career development,

Unknown Speaker  16:33  
I don't think I would be where I am today, without having mentoring advice along the way. The advice and guidance that you get from a mentor, it just helps you from things that would have held you back if, if that's the way to look at it. So many lacking self confidence means that I would not have had the confidence to go try another role or to try a different career. Without someone telling me you know, that's a good thing, you should try that you're good you that will broaden your experience that helps you kind of give you that boost. And even things like the way I communicated. If I always sounded apologetic, maybe that circle back to that subservient, calm comment. Back to back, well, maybe he had a point. You know, so being apologetic and always, you know, saying I'm sorry, that was my way of actually. And I know why I did it. If I was asking a tough question. It was my way of kind of saying, take the edge of this. I don't I don't want to ask your really grumpy question are really challenging questions. So I'm going to say sorry, first. And so I thought that would help kind of soften it. And I think what it did was probably just confused people say, Why are you apologizing for asking? And so I think that mentors just have so much wisdom and experience, typically, they've been there, they've done it. And so just hearing their perspective is just invaluable. And it just gives you that extra little, you know, I think boost that you need.

Unknown Speaker  17:57  
Circling back to the topic of inclusion within the workplace. I wanted to get Alice's opinion on whether or not she thought programs like this could help the industries,

Unknown Speaker  18:09  
there is a lot more women, I mean, doesn't look like a lot more women in theory, we can do better for sure. I think the mining industry overall, it's about 25% are women. Now that probably includes you know, corporate office and things like that. So if you look at the mine sites in general, they're probably lower, maybe 15% are in that range. And so we have a lot of work still to do on the diversity piece of it. And on the inclusion front, but I think it's much better. But I'd say we still have work to do.

Unknown Speaker  18:41  
Towards the end of our conversation, Alice had some thought and advice to give to other potential mentees out there,

Unknown Speaker  18:47  
really be open to hearing the advice. It's okay to, you know, question or challenge some of the things but you have to be open to just hearing how things could be done differently or could help you grass. And I think that that's the main thing. And the other thing is, if you don't connect with someone right away, it's okay to go, No, this isn't working. And we'll say goodbye and go find another mentor. Because if you don't connect with each other, then it's like I said at the beginning with the weird artificial, you will be with this person and you will get along. So it's a very strange thing. It's still a relationship. And so you have to have some trust in that relationship. And so really, if it's not working, it's perfectly fine to kind of politely say, you know, thank you very much this, I think we're you know, you've helped me a lot and I think I'd like to try something different or something you can find a way to change it, but it is really just being open and finding someone you can connect with.

Unknown Speaker  19:45  
I think Alice's story is a very important one. She started in the industry, not having any experience in it whatsoever. And now she is a high ranking professional within that same company, all with the power of mentoring. I was Thank you so much for sharing your stories with us today and happy mentoring everybody

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