Art Impact with Raquel Bellastella
Art Impact with Raquel Bellastella
Exploring the Anthropology of Creativity with Sinead Cullen #44
Have you ever considered how your creativity is influenced by your community or perhaps, how it can impact those around you? Well, you're about to find out. This week, we have the pleasure of chatting with the talented Sinead Cullen, an architect, artist, and movement medicine teacher who enlightens us about the anthropology of creativity. We uncover how our innate need to create art is intertwined with our communities and discuss the culture of individualism prevalent in today's art scene.
Our conversation opens up fascinating perspectives on creativity as we journey into the unknown and build trust during the creative process. As we navigate these unknown territories, Sinead uses the intriguing analogy of a black hole at the center of our galaxy, representing the nothingness from which we all emerge, to help us better grasp the concept. We also examine how engaging in the creativity process can reveal connections that we didn't even know existed.
Additionally, we dive into the beautiful realm of motherhood and its potent connection to our creative instincts. Observing children's process of learning through trial and error, we see a profound creative journey unfold before our eyes. The joy and purity of children and nature during moments of exploration and play are captivating. To wrap things up, we contemplate the evolution of art, displaying the complexities of quality, excellence, and inclusivity. So, tune in and join this insightful exploration of creativity, its profound impact on community, and our personal lives.
EPISODE SHOW NOTES: www.raquelbellastella.com/podcast/exploring-the-anthropology-of-creativity-with-sinead-cullen-44
Hey there and welcome back to the Art Impact Podcast. I'm your host, raka Balistella, and I'm so thrilled to have you here. So, after a bit of a break, here we are back. We are back again, and in today's episode I'm talking to Sinead Kuhlen, an architect, artist and movement medicine teacher with a fascination for how humans co-create. She supports individuals and organizations to access their creativity for positive change. I love this conversation so much. Let's jump in. So welcome back to the Art Impact Podcast, sinead Kuhlen. It's so great to see you today. It has been a while, hasn't?
Speaker 2:it. It has been a few months and it's really good to be back. I'm just so excited to see you again and we hardly know each other, but it's like, oh, I'm excited to see what happens.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:No same here, same here.
Speaker 1:It's funny because it's the sensation that we met once in the last podcast and this is our second time, but at the same time I think we have so much in common in a way, so that feels so much close and intimate, although it's just our second meeting. So it's really a funny feeling. I feel a joke.
Speaker 2:And we don't know what's going to happen. So this is a little bit of we're weighing in a fear, so it's good.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, it's opening the space. It's opening the space, great, yeah. So for our listeners out there today, me and Sinead, we thought we'd like to just share with you our conversation about a few topics that are very dear to us and so, more than like an interview structured episode, today, it's really more of an exploration in chat about creativity, about the impact of creativity in a community and in our personal life, how, where those things they mix or don't mix, where they relate or don't relate, and the crossovers between our work and everything else that will appear in the exploration today. So I'm really, really excited to start on that. Yes, and so good. I think I would like to start off, unless you have another question. Sinead, do you have something?
Speaker 2:to say no, I'm just kidding. I think let's get started.
Speaker 1:Let's get started. Yes, yes. So I think, for me, something that came to my mind a lot that I think I would love to talk more with you, it's kind of. It's kind of I really came to this work, kind of the anthropology of creativity, you know, like where in our human existence, you know where does it come? You know the need for that, the need to create, the need to and to create art, you know. So this word, like anthropology, came to my mind and I was, I was so amazed really to buy your experience with the intentional communities that you visited and in your project, and how creativity was such a vital part, you know, or of their structure, of their being as a community, you know, and, yeah, so I think I have loads for me.
Speaker 1:It's very, I'm very curious on that because I think that's a missing piece in our culture today and in the way that we teach and kind of graduate form artists. You know, we focus so much on the individual, we focus so much on what you want to create as an artist, your story, your biography, your passions. You know, and I don't want to take out the value of any of that really, don't you know? And the importance of all of that really don't. They are all very important, but we really we really missed I really feel we missed the link, you know, the organic link, or the natural link, or we tend to miss or we don't teach that at all this link between our art, our creation and the world we live in and the communities we are part of and the change you know we want to make out there. What do you, yeah, what are your thoughts on that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's interesting, as you're speaking just behind you, I'm noticing the bookshelves and I'm just thinking about this idea of pigeonholing, that we are each individual and because recently what's come to my mind is around, my main formal education is in architecture and I think I've spent I love the education. It was very individual, it was very focused, it was very egotistical, which I think we talked about it a bit the last time, which was exciting, you know, as a young person. But I've been unlearning an awful lot of what I've learned. Not to criticise the education, but there was a lot that I didn't see or I didn't learn or I had to kind of unlearn some aspects of my approach to the creative process or the design process, which was so much about what I'm going to do and my experience and what I'm doing and my little world and how am I going to do all of this? To get you know, to make my stamp, you know, in some way on society or you know whether it's in a building or a piece of art. It's like, how am I going to do that? And there was always this kind of a.
Speaker 2:I've always kind of felt there's a bridge between me and, or there was a bridge between me and the public. The public were really. It was almost like a means of that was where my art was going to end up or the architecture was going to end up. And it's an interesting point that you've made about the anthropology I wonder about in the past, like the only way we survived through the millennia was together. You know we weren't, you didn't have so many wandering. You know solo artists in the wild. I mean, perhaps there were, I just don't know. I think you know there aren't really strong records for those solo artists many, many thousands of years ago.
Speaker 2:But, I think there's a lot of presumption I think there's a lot of talk about, you know, in the past people would have been too busy to create art, and that art and creativity are a privilege. There's that presumption. I think that art is a privilege and I don't believe that it is a privilege. This definitely came up before as well. But you know, people, when you invent something, you're also creating. There's that balance between practicality and making it beautiful. The first thing you come up with might be kind of the first line or whatever. It might have been at the first circle, the moment oh, what's that? The first tools they would have been finessing and that kind of evolution.
Speaker 2:And there's a desire in humans for beauty, and beauty being part of it, but expression as well, wanting to express themselves, and that all emerged from being in community and recognizing the individual. You know it's being from a community but being able to express as an individual within the community. There was a constant, you know. I think there can. Only there's always a weaving between one and the other and we've got this incredible capacity as humans. Other, I don't know that other beings have that capacity for individuation. We can recognize our group and then we can recognize ourselves as an individual. So Another way of isolating ourselves from human incentives, again to show our hearing to understanding, mature culture andthroughuse. Yeah, that's kind of fascinating in a way. Maybe creativity is this place of weaving yeah between these different capacities.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's why I've got them to so far anyway, oh wow, I love that.
Speaker 1:I really love that wow yes yes, yes, yes, just weaving, yeah, this weaving tool you know where we weave ourselves into the community and the community into ourselves.
Speaker 1:How we found this, this, this connection, yeah, so other things that, for me, I would love to, for me, in my experience, and I know that you know, can be just very personal, or, at the end, and I'm not saying that's the only, you know only type of art which is valid or no, no, no, no judgment there. But, but, like, in my experience, I, for me, creativity and connection, creativity and interconnect, connectedness in a way, you know, I like, I like the same coin, I like not the two faces of the same coin. I can't really, yeah, think of that. I'm creating something because for me, for me, rachele Balistella, creating is always a form of connection.
Speaker 1:It's always comes from from the impulse, from the desire of connecting with something you know, and it can be connecting with myself in a way, with a part of myself that I, you know, that's difficult to connect, or that I want to explore, or or, honestly, many times, a part of my myself that is in pain at this very moment, you know, and I want to, I want to relieve, have a relief for that in some way, or not, to connect with that in some way or a way of connecting out there, you know like, for example, in theater, you know like of establishing this relationship with with the audience, of you know having something to be shared, having creating something that creates a moment of connection between me, my colleagues in the stage and you know, a bunch of unknown people out there, you know, and so I think for me they are always very, very yet together. They're very connected and yeah, how, how do? How is that for you? Do you think what I, what are beautiful?
Speaker 2:thoughts on that. I mean it's gorgeous, actually. So, because I I agree on that. It's one of the words that I always, I always have in within the work that I do. It's like create, inspire, connect, transform. These are words that have changed.
Speaker 2:These come up all the time, but I think we're constantly in connection. It's part of just being alive. You know, it's like well connected to our senses, connected to our experience and our creativity, and art gives us a capacity to and I'm thinking on a really personal level. Recently I was listening to something about trauma, and you know the way that we am not going to go deep into that, but in this is such a matter of talk about trauma at the moment, and you know, one of the ways, you know, the only way really, I suppose, to really move beyond our trauma is to to learn to be witness to our emotions and to allow the sensations of our bodies to move. And that's such a profound way of connecting to lost parts of ourselves or frozen parts of ourselves, or like past parts of ourselves, and such beautiful art can come from this you know, such truth can come from it, from that connection.
Speaker 2:And there's freedom as well in our capacity to connect our stories of that with others. And I love that idea of you talking about those moments in theatre, of making those, of those connections, of that. I think that it's there's so much in that, that that essence of our need to connect in different ways and to keep on. There's something the word that keeps coming up as well is dynamic. It's it's always in in movement. There's something very beautiful about that movement of being aware of ourselves and being aware of that kind of expanding awareness in the world around us to others, and then coming back to ourselves and other people are expanding and coming back as well and somehow we're again weaving and creating something and building relationship. In that, yeah, there's a yeah, there's something about the. There's almost like that idea of seasons or kind of cycles, of creating, coming back and coming out, and coming back and coming out.
Speaker 2:It feels, like everything else in nature. So, yeah, that idea of connection is really beautiful. You mentioned as well that, the instant as well. We talked about that the last time, about the, about, you know, a piece of art being just a moment in time, really a pause point, and it's almost like in the weaving I'm weaving with my fingers here but those little crossover points.
Speaker 2:That are moments, and I think a place that we get hung up in so many aspects of our world at the moment is trying to hold on to those places, you know, like trying to make the moment last longer rather than just being. I think, an example and the theatre is such a beautiful example you were there with it. You know there's no taking photographs because you're just going to ruin it for other people you're just with it and it becomes a part of your.
Speaker 2:It's a collected, shared experience. You're there, you're with it, you have it and you move on, and it's. And then there's another thing that arises, another beautiful moment arises, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, what do you think? Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, no. I think that's very yeah, no, no, no. I love that and I think what I hear from what you're saying is is this way of creativity as a way, as a form of connection with ourselves, with the others, you know, with the other human beings with whom we are, you know, spending this time on earth together, you know, and and then, but also like a way of connecting with something deeper or higher, like with nature, somehow. You say you talk about the cycles and how, in nature, nature has its creative cycles and when we create, we feel we are connected to that. You know, well, that's, that's how, how I feel, at least, and and and always like, for example, now I'm developing and it's really really exciting, I'm developing a new theater project after like years and years and years away from theater, like things, things that became my mom, really like theater was much more in my head and, you know, in pens and papers and things I would write and imagine, then really on stage or anywhere else, because it was, yeah, I found really really hard to conciliate, you know, like, yeah, being on creating theater, sharing theater and being a mom of young children like I, yeah, I didn't find a way to that and and yeah, so, and then my, my, my work as an entrepreneur is started from this point, which is interesting for me because, at the end of the day, being an entrepreneur is for for me, is very similar than we're creating theater, you know. You know, I think you are creating an experience for someone. Of course, this is a different stage and all of that, you know, a different medium, but I think entrepreneurship it really allowed me to to focus my energy in another area that I could and to really find, yeah, creativity there as well. But now that I'm coming, well, going back and my woo, super long story. But now that I'm coming back to theater, because my two lovely boys are a bit older now we I'm, I'm developing a theater project for looked after children and and it's been really, really an amazing, beautiful, inspiring experience.
Speaker 1:And and then I was, for example, I was like trying recently I was finding the story. You know that we are going to work together with the children, the workshops and all, and I was looking and looking and looking and I couldn't find anything. You know, like this chaotic process, you know part of the creative process, and I couldn't find any story that I would really like satisfy. You know a few, oh no, that's the one. And I looked and then look, and then looked, and and after you know a few days, things start, things that just came together and I and I thought, oh no, actually the story that I want to create is this beats from this, from this bet, from that and this new piece that I'm writing, you know, and then a new story came together, came to be, you know, and I felt so.
Speaker 1:It was such a moment of fulfillment and satisfaction because I I felt, not only because I was happy with the story that we now have, okay, but it's because of being part of this process. You know, feeling that I'm part of a process, you know that are where, where things come together in a way where things are connected, is kind of finding the connections. You know, kind of those things, they were connected but we didn't knew they were connected. And now, after, after going through the creative process, oh, I see the connection that kind of kind of already was there, you know. So there is this, this feeling of connecting with something bigger somehow, you know, bigger than than myself, and and that's really really fulfilling. That's really, really, really fulfilling, yeah, because there's always that.
Speaker 2:There's always that, there's always that leap of faith. When you launch into the creative process and you look at this idea of and this is something that I remember a flatmate of mine, or years ago I'd be designing, and she's like how do you know what it's going to look like? I was like I don't know what it's going to look like. To say, you, you believe that the connections are going to appear and you learn, because you can definitely put some kind of structure on the creative process. But there's, you know, there's lots of diagrams that show the process and then there's some really, really funny ones ago. Like you know, you start off, you don't know what you're doing and then suddenly at the end you do kind of figure out something. But I love the.
Speaker 2:For me, I'm really interested in this idea of trust and the idea of the unknown. It's almost like I think it's phenomenal that at the center of our galaxy is a black hole, like a place of absolute nothingness, you know, and that we all emerged from like nothingness, and I think that's the thing about the creative process. That's kind of cycles back to that for me that you have to. It sounds a bit bonkers, but you don't know what it's going to be. It is a good feeling.
Speaker 2:You have to balance together some kind of a structure and some unfaith and trust, and also that, if you've done it before, like you hadn't done it for a number of years, and there's always that sense of, like you know, oh my, you know, I know for myself, there's often that sense of holy crap. Like you know, maybe it won't work this time. Yeah, it's interesting. What's on my mind as well is I'm curious about for you, was the process different Because you're now a mom, like have you have the way you've been seeing your boys be creative, or how they've grown up? Has that changed the way you create and work?
Speaker 1:or, yeah, just, curious what effect that has had on your own process.
Speaker 1:Mmm, such a nice question, such a beautiful question. Yeah, I think it. Definitely. It definitely did. It definitely did. Yeah, I think I think two things. I think it's the process of becoming a mom and also going through this creative process which is motherhood For me, well, I think maybe that's my lens to everything I see, but for me I remember after I had my first son, martin, and going through the pregnancy and the birth, and then he was at home with us and I remember two things were so strong in my mind.
Speaker 1:The first one was, oh my God, how powerful life is, how powerful life has its own powerful process to become, to develop. And I didn't have this experience so close For me because of my family experiences and maybe a bit more previous experiences, a bit more traumatic, I had some kind of sense in myself of, wow, death is really powerful, it's a really powerful force, a creative force in a way. What comes out after death, all the rearrangements and recreations. That somehow in myself was a really tangible experience, really tangible understanding. But with being pregnant and then giving birth and all, it was the first time that I could really experience like, oh, life has a process of totally of its own, you know, and it's so powerful and because, for example, I had a very difficult pregnancy and I lost 30 kilos and gained further 30 after I lost 10, and then gained further 30 until the end of my pregnancy. It was a really crazy time for me and I could just see how life was persistently and doing her way, you know, and Martin was absolutely fine. A lot of this matters, so I think that was one thing to be very close to the creative process of life and be able to experience that.
Speaker 1:And then another thing is that when Martin was a few days old and I remember once he woke up in the middle of the night, he woke up in the middle of the night and I woke up and I look at him and he made, with his face, a few. You know, he was a very tiny baby, he was just a few days old, but he made a few expressions in his face that came like from surprising to happiness, to pain or fear, almost crying, and then happiness again, you know, and just very, very and I remember looking, you know, and all this, this move, transition, and kind of like seeing it all, you know, like I just felt, oh, I'm seeing it all here, you know, and and was a moment that I felt, oh, I like I don't need to see anything more. You know, like before I had myself a big hunger, you know, to see beautiful things and other, and of course I still love to. I still love to go to theater and and exhibitions and all of that. But that was such a deep, beautiful moment just in front of me and just really see, oh man, life is just so magical.
Speaker 1:And and then after, just like seeing them develop, and I think that was a big a half for me, just to see how children they do develop creatively, they do develop through a creative process. You know the way that they develop. It's like by trying an error, try an error and exploring and creating, and exploring and creating, you know, and so just to see that, like this thing that I called creativity, that looked so and I'll just sometimes exclusive to me, or so abstract sometimes, or or whatever, actually was really a tool, you know, a humanity of tool that we carry with us since, yeah, since we are born and if we are giving the right conditions, you know, supportive conditions, that's the tool that we, that we use to grow. And yeah, so in a very long answer but, yeah, yeah, I think so. I think at the end, the to make a sentence.
Speaker 1:I think becoming a mom in my, in my, in my case it's it makes me closer to my creativity. You know, it made me closer to my, to my creative impulses and and and more so, more, in a way, more confident with them, you know, then, then before, and, yeah, more familiar, I think, with them. So, although there was this big gap of, of theater or, you know, artistic creation, we can say, although there was a lot of writing, yeah, it's expressed itself through writing a lot, I don't, I don't feel it. I don't feel lost. You know, I don't feel a lot. I don't feel there was a time lost. I feel there was a time of development in any way, in a different way. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Oh, that's beautiful. I love it. I think what I'm really struck with is the way you express that idea of, like, life's creative force I could really feel. I could really feel that, Just that, this, and the other thing that comes to mind is that purity, the pure expression of a child like I don't have children of my own, but I do have nieces and nephews, and I have, I remember, and one of my nephews in particular, sitting with him. He was only a few days old and sitting on my like, just lying on my knee, and we were by a window and he was just looking out at the clouds and or, you know, I don't know what he was looking at, I'm not sure what he was seeing, but his eyes were drawn towards the sky.
Speaker 2:I just remember like I was crying because it's so beautiful because there's such a beauty and a purity and a simplicity and an honesty and a curiosity in the looking, in the listening, in the experiencing of life and it's, it is, it's profoundly beautiful. And there is, I think, the only other time I do feel that, the only other place I really, really feel it is out in nature.
Speaker 2:And when I'm even just there before we get onto the call, I was looking at the window at the back of my house here and it's. I'm not very far from the sea, but there's a bit of a cliff edge and the wind is blowing in off the Atlantic and hitting the cliff edge and obviously blowing air up and there's a group of crows that are just having an absolutely blast. They are just having the best time. They're flying along and they're getting, they're coming off the field, they're getting caught on the wind and they're blown up in a big circle and they're going one after another and they're like a group of kids on a roller coaster or, and there there's just such a, such a sense of just pure joy. They're just playing with the wind and they play there. Quite often, if the wind comes in from a certain direction, the crows are there and they're like flying on their back. They just have such a good, just a really, really good time. And like I love that. There's nothing force in it, there's nothing and it is. It's a dance, it is. It could call it a piece of theatre if you want to. It doesn't need labels, it's just pure, it's beautiful and it's just a, really just a simple expression of you know winged beasts, you know winged animals in flies, you know playing with the wind, and there's something about that that you know.
Speaker 2:I think that's where I'm coming back to. There's two different things on my mind. One is that gap in creativity, because I had that as well in architecture. But I feel like I think, if you're, if you're, I think all of life is constantly feeding us, because sometimes I kind of give myself a bit of a hard time going. I should have been, I should be building more buildings, I should be doing things that. Am I still an Architect if I haven't built anything for a while?
Speaker 2:but I realize there's so many creative things. You write as well. Like I write, I paint them. If there's, the creativity is happening in us all the time, and it doesn't mean we have to be producing. We can be appreciating the world as well. You know, creativity has those who are creating and those who are Observing, and that's another. That's another form of connection. Sometimes we're receiving, sometimes we are offering, and so it's all Feeding our own creative process.
Speaker 2:And the other thing that's on my mind is even just that, that difficulty of labeling it. Sometimes it just it's just messy, isn't it? Like? It reminds of you, like you know the way. Again, this sounds like a criticism, like you may sometimes artists described. I'm just like, oh, it's like the way wine is described. Sometimes I'm like I just don't know if this really tastes like a whatever. I can't even think of salty strawberry chocolate. You know, sometimes it tastes good, doesn't make for a very good label. It's like, sometimes I think we try so hard to describe things in clever ways where we could just leave it. Let it be an experience. I do remember being at a Lecture a long time ago in college. I was a visiting lecturer with Peter Cook, it's famous British architect, and I was quite excited because he did really interesting work in the 70s and you know it was quite out there stuff and I love the way he came up on stage and, like you know, there's usually this kind of requirements to you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And I remember him really specifically saying look, I'm not great with words, I'm gonna say a bit, I'm gonna show you images and you can ask questions.
Speaker 1:How about that we're?
Speaker 2:like, and it was just wonderful he wasn't Trying to. He's like I'm just exploring something. I'm he was really honest. He's like I just really curious and I made these blobby shapes and I can. I feel I Just love that. I love the authenticity of that. Yeah, I think. Yeah, sometimes we can just Try too hard and I'm just thinking again. Just going back to your original question about the anthropology, I think that the evolution of our own creativity, it just happened, like the same way that you are, your boys learn to, to crawl or to walk. You know, it's like that curiosity and expression and you know, trying and creating and then it didn't work, it doesn't work, so you try again. There's something very organic in it and there's something very liberating and realizing that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yes, oh, yes, yeah, no, no, it's such a so nice to be able to, to explore together and you know it's. And Then she made it so amazing the images that you bring about. You know the creative process it's, they're so, so powerful, so beautiful, like the, the poses. You know it's really transformative and you know, let you think about the, the works as poses, and or the weaving. You know, and and Even like just doesn't need to be a wine Label. You know you don't need to produce. You know a lot of wine. We've very. You know like, or at least to understand that you might be, you might have to produce a label For your wine. You know, and you might have to use all those complicated words because you know that's the word we live in sometimes and you know, and we need to defend our project, sometimes for a few, a few people or funders or whatever. You know or no, but you know, okay. So sometimes you need to produce this label, but actually what we are all Looking for is is just a good wine.
Speaker 2:Just give me the good stuff. It would look a bit weird, though, wouldn't it, if you went into a shop for wine and they all just had the good stuff. We do need some differentiation. I guess that's where, yeah, it is evolved from, but there's something about coming back to that.
Speaker 1:Really, simplicity, yes there is something, there isn't it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:No, no, and it's true. And I am thinking about, like labels and things like that. Like I think there is something with art, or maybe with anything, even with wine, that if you Get to know it, you know, if you get to develop skills and tastes, and then you more and more need something you know Better and better and better, because you feel it more, you taste it more, and and that's true, that's really true, that's really really true. Like, for example, I have a dear friend of mine and he's a Pianist and he, he's an amazing pianist and he tells me, like I Go just to a few piano concerts, now, very, very few, because if I go to one that I know that won't be, you know that good, it's just painful for me.
Speaker 1:It's painful, you know, I feel terrible, you know, and, and so I think there is definitely and and that's my case with theater as well I know, when I go to very selected plays that don't go, don't go to any play for fun. You know I can't do that because, yeah, if they, if there's not, you know, if I don't know, if it's not the right one for me, it, it's painful, it's something that I'm personally invested on and you know. So it's yeah. So there is definitely, yeah, maybe a need for labels, but definitely a need for us to be more, not so what's the word for the demanding? Or so you know, of ourselves, or so you know like.
Speaker 2:It's interesting, that's an interesting conversation, though, I mean, even if you're to. You know, I think it's there's an honesty in that though as well, in liking what you like, it's like you don't. There's a. I'm like, yeah, there's a. I'm just trying to figure out how that would match back to the original question about our own art versus the community's art.
Speaker 1:And.
Speaker 2:I think that what can sometimes, what sometimes can come from people being so deep in their own you know, having really developed their craft actually, you know really whether it's a musician or the craft of theatre making or whatever it is you spend the time on. It can be very difficult then to look at the ordinary stuff and kind of you need to kind of look at it in a different way. But yeah, I'm just kind of I think it becomes a problem when people become yeah, this is kind of a tricky conversation.
Speaker 2:I said, well, sometimes art can be perceived as a different world or a different realm, or kind of snobbish or, you know, out of people's reach, and I'm curious about how to oops, I'm closer than anything. Yeah, I'm curious about you know how it can be. Yeah, I'm not sure where I'm going actually with this conversation, but yeah, I'm curious about art that is for everybody. And again, actually this comes back to what I was saying earlier about having your own experience of it, and then you're having a different experience in the shared or the co-created aspects of it. I'm still I'm still mulling this over. Actually, I'm not clear on that one yet.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, no, this is absolutely fine, absolutely fine in this podcast, and especially in this episode. You're exploring, it's a live exploration.
Speaker 2:It's a live exploration.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but what I hear you saying is that and tell me if I'm wrong, maybe I misunderstood but is this relationship of quality, you know, and excellence? But that is not exclusive, you know, that's not, doesn't exclude anyone. At the same time, you know, and I don't know if we are creating a contradiction that's not there, but I hear that.
Speaker 2:I hear that yeah, yeah, yeah, I guess what is what actually, when I'm coming to, I'm trying to to figure out what my train of thought, where it was leading to. I guess where it leads to is that often people say I'm not creative. And they, they might think of, and what they'll be using as their barometer is like they'll want to start to play the piano, but they'll never be as good as, let's say, your friend. And that can be. That can be like for a child. That can be oh my god.
Speaker 2:I want to be as good as them. For an adult it can be. Oh, I'm never going to be that good. You know there's an interesting kind of perception and I think that's all bull. You know it's like. It's like they're as good as they are. And you know, if you love something, give it a go and try. And who says you have to create perfection? And very few I mean you know very few people are going to get that level of excellence.
Speaker 2:But you can also do it for the enjoyment you know, we're all not going to become masters of our trades, and that's where I'm curious about how we use our. This is where creativity and art are different things in different places and different ways within our society. All of it is valuable and all of it is necessary. We need the excellent, absolutely excellent wines that are only taken out for the very, very special celebrations, and we need the table wines that are for the everyday and the dessert wine. See the wine.
Speaker 2:I'll get myself a glass of wine after this, but there's a place for all of it. There's a place for all of it and all weaves a beautiful tapestry of all of us together and those beautiful, you know, moments of absolute or those experiences of absolute excellence that raise the bar. And then there's people doing very ordinary and simple details and, you know, maybe it's taking care of their family or doing very simple, creative things creating a beautiful view, creating a beautiful garden. Yeah, really, really simple, beautiful, everyday you know. Acts of beauty. Yeah, it's all, it's all part of our tapestry.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, amazing, yeah, tapestry, yeah, I think that's our, it's our biggest image for today. Yeah, isn't it? Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:I tend to go back to weaving a lot yeah.
Speaker 1:That's a beautiful metaphor. I think it's a beautiful, beautiful metaphor for creativity. I never, I never really thought on these terms, but yeah, thank you so much for that. It's really, really beautiful. Yeah, she made well. We enter well over, well over today. Oh, we are. Oh, my goodness, oh gosh, the time just, yeah, flies by, and thank you so much for joining us today. Thank you so much for your courage to go on this. You know open space and explore lively with me and together, and thank you so much for sharing with us all your insights and thoughts and beautiful images on creativity. It's so helpful and it's generous.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much.
Speaker 2:You're so welcome. It's so beautiful to hear more about your work and you know your passion for theater and I'm also a little bit about your own life and your family and those the interweaving of all of that. It's really wonderful to get to know you a little bit better. I really I love this conversation and I'm going to appreciate the space.
Speaker 1:Thank you, oh, thank you, thank you, and, and oh, thank you too, and and I really I don't feel we are finished, and so we will, we'll keep, continue, we'll continue, we'll continue, we'll continue later let's do this, yeah, Thank you so much, my dear, thank you.