Ep 133: Why we need to schedule time for fun and experiences! Part 1: Mike Rucker, PhD, Author of "The Fun Habit"

Episode 133 of Ask Dr Jessica with Mike Rucker, PhD, author of "The Fun Habit" .  The conversation explores the concept of finding joy and pleasure in everyday life,  rather than solely pursuing happiness as an end goal.  He explains why we need to prioritize scheduling time for fun activities and creating core memories.  

Takeaways

• Finding joy and pleasure in everyday life is more sustainable and fulfilling than solely pursuing happiness as an end goal.
• Being present and mindful in the moment can enhance the enjoyment of daily activities.
• Blend fun into daily routines and co-create experiences with loved ones
• Plan and schedule fun activities to ensure they happen

Dr Jessica Hochman is a board certified pediatrician, mom to three children, and she is very passionate about the health and well being of children. Most of her educational videos are targeted towards general pediatric topics and presented in an easy to understand manner.

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The information presented in Ask Dr Jessica is for general educational purposes only. She does not diagnose medical conditions or formulate treatment plans for specific individuals. If you have a concern about your child's health, be sure to call your child's health care provider.

Transcript

Unknown: 0:00

Hi everybody, I'm Dr. Jessica Hochman, paediatrician, and mom of three. On this podcast I like to talk about various paediatric health topics, sharing my knowledge not only as a doctor, but also as a parent. Ultimately, my hope is that when it comes to your children's health, you feel more confident, worry less, and enjoy your parenting experience as much as possible. So today, we're going to talk about one of my favourite all time activities, having fun. Now, many of us want to have more fun. But today we live such busy lives. It doesn't often feel like we're prioritising enough time for fun. I think of this often while raising my children. How can I make sure I'm spending enough time with my kids where we're making joyful fond memories? So on today's podcast, we're going to talk all about how to maximise fun and experiences. But the author of the fun habit, Dr. Mike Rucker, I enjoyed our conversation so much that I made it into two parts. In this first part, Dr. Rucker will talk about how we can maximise joy and pleasure as parents in everyday life. So I'm really excited to talk to you I'm really hoping overall that this is a fun interview. So it's in keeping with your theme, I want this to be an hour of leisure, hopefully, and not, not anything, you know, not anything too stressful. Now we'll be we'll be fine. Okay, so I wanted to first ask you tell us about your book and tell us what inspired you to write the fun habit. So I've been a zealot of positive psychology since that kind of tribe became for real quick background about the turn of the millennium, a bunch of clinical psychologists wanted to come together and look at psychology as a tool for betterment. You know, up until that point, we had primarily used it clinically to treat cognitive deficits, and you know, for mental health and things like that. Cheek sent me Hi, wrote a book called flow that a lot of folks, I think that's a fairly familiar book, but the concept of flow, I think, will be familiar. But for anyone that doesn't know what it is, it's essentially getting in a timeless space, enjoying what you're doing so much, you know, and having a level of mastery that, you know, time kind of escapes you, a central tenet of positive psychology. And then a gentleman by the name of Marty cyclamen wrote a book called authentic happiness, and they, you know, brought together in Congress and it was off to the races and why that's important is I really prescribed to that I was, you know, a fairly young underlying psychology back then. And so, you know, drank from the firehose and became the zealot of happiness. And so I was one of many that really overprescribed to this idea that life, the you know, the angle of life should be happiness, right. So not necessarily valuing happiness, because I think, you know, all of us still agree that that is a good thing, and you want your friends to be happy, your family to be happy. Happiness as an attribute is something that's meaningful, but striving for it as an end goal, we now know is quite problematic. And my personal story is that I fell victim to that my younger brother passed away quite suddenly. And I had been an enthusiast of endurance sport, up until that point, and found out that I'm diagnosed injury and need to get a hip replacement at a fairly young age early 40s and couldn't run again. So these big shifts and identity, these big sort of traumatic moments that really required, you know, to unpack to figure out the trauma, I came at with this Pollyanna attitude, because, you know, I was like I, you know, I'm an optimist, like, you know, I'll just be grateful on a will myself out of this malaise. And so I found myself as I tried to chase happiness, paradoxically, more and more unhappy. And I wanted to figure out why. And so that was kind of the beginning of this journey is juxtaposing how do we find joy in the day to day, despite, you know, really focusing on happiness as an outcome? It's fascinating, because so often, when you ask people what they want out of life, it's to be happy. They want their kids to be happy, they want to feel happy. Happiness seems to be the end goal. But as you described in your book, to think of it as an end goal is just unrealistic. Yeah, well, so here's the beauty. Right? It's right now, you know, I think that's why, you know, existentially books like The Power of Now by Eckhart Tolle, you know, if that's kind of your slant, right, because it's not necessarily mine, but like, really resonates with folks. But at a more broad, approachable level. That's why mindfulness has really gained steam and has a whole host of empirical science to back it up because we really can enjoy the moment but to unpack what you just stated, which is accurate, once we put happiness off in the distance, right, like, okay, you know, our goal is to be happy so it's not here right now, it's somewhere off in the distance. Then we start to look at that distance between where we are right now, and where we think happiness lies, right. Like, it will be great. You know, once I get that promotion or you know, once my daughter excels at gymnastics, or you know once we finally get in to that house. So what happens? What we know is that once we start to ruminate on that gap between where we are and where we think happiness is, subconsciously, we start to identify as unhappy, right? Because if happiness is not right here, it's out there somewhere, then I must not be happy yet, right? And it's a real slow burn and insidious, because it doesn't happen quickly enough for you to catch it. But what we now know, right, one of the researchers, I really liked in this area area, Dr. Iris mouse out of out of cow, but her work has been replicated by you know, a lot of other folks, is it's kind of cognitive behavioural therapy in reverse, right? I mean, you start to have these thoughts, and all of a sudden, like, okay, you know, it will be there sometime, it will be there sometime, if I just do this, it will be there. And slowly, but surely, now, you're like, it's never there, right? Because it's always off in the distance like that horse, you know, with a carrot stuck to a stick. And eventually, you get tired, you know, we have this sane and positive slide called the hedonic treadmill on I'm in that metaphor place, because life is a continuum, right? Like, if you're not enjoying it, right, then it really can become problematic for a whole host of reasons. And experiencing a multitude of emotions is normal, right? We can always feel happiness, we're going to feel sadness, anger, anxiety. So I agree with you that the conversation about happiness being the pursuit, where if we focus on fun, and we're focused on where our feet are, and the here and the now, that seems a lot more attainable. That's exactly right. And so for anyone, because this often comes up, so what does fun mean, right? It's the simple definition is just finding pleasure in the things that you're doing. And the problem is, you know, as busy adults, especially, so many of us in knowledge work, right, we have so much incoming information, that we really have had to habituate the things that we do, you know, so we get into such a routine that we forget that for things we can do, to kind of enjoy that time, or reintroduce even things, you know, that have become habituated, but, you know, figure out components, you spend your time reminding yourself that you have agency and autonomy to find pleasurable experiences, pretty much at any moment you want, you know, there are going to be circumstances you can't obviously, but that you can bias your life towards joy. Once you're empowered with that knowledge, right, things really start to change, because so many of us are finding ourselves in these downward spirals, because we're not looking for, you know, the simple joys that are available to all of us. You know, in everyday moments, I think your book has so many messages that are relevant to raising kids and parenting. Because we live in this hustle culture where parents are just working a lot, they come home, they're probably on their phones, they're busy, they're not fully focused with their kids, then we're stressed getting your kids to bed, and we're on this continuum, this hamster wheel where the distinction between work and being there for our kids and having a good time with our kids, it can often feel blurry. And so I really like a lot of the advice that you impart to parents, because as as you point out, the time can just pass before us very quickly. And then before we know it, our kids are grown. Yeah, and what you just described to write what we know is that interplay, like if you think you're, you can kind of multitask, that ultimately, it's perceived that that is work in your brain. So if you kind of think you're being present, because you're sitting on the couch with your child watching their favourite programme, but you're on your smartphone, also kind of answering emails, like ultimately, what you've done is extended the workday, right. And so the folks that can be deliberate about transition rituals, so there really is a clean break, you know, that work is over, and you create that space, whatever that means, it still could be, you know, things that you feel are dutiful, like taking care of ageing parents or, you know, whatever is meaningful for you, it doesn't necessarily mean, you know, you need to get into this whimsical state, because I think that turns off a lot of people, right, like, I don't want to go out and play you know, but it still might means finding joy in the things that you're doing, and finding ways to reduce that cognitive load. Because what we're waking up to is that access to leisure in a very academic sense, leisure, just meaning these opportunities to kind of think in a nonlinear fashion, you know, where you're letting your brain kind of relax, are just as important as sleep. We don't need it as much as we need sleep. But we still need about you know, the but the 20 Depending on who you are two to five hours of time where we really feel like we're owning, you know, our ability to control what happens in that space. Yeah, I love when you mentioned that in your book when you when you write out the hours in the week has 168 hours in the week and if we're working eight hours a day, we shouldn't be able to carve out two to five hours of time when we're not working. Yeah, and that's the thing like so even, you know, and we don't need to geek out on the science, but even folks that really are living tremendously busy lives when you scrutinise their schedule generally can find opportunities. So I think when someone's like, I just don't have the time, right? You need to ask why and sort of unpack that. But then also this notion that when we are so depleted, especially if you find yourselves in the throes of burnout, like finding the energy to enjoy yourself becomes problematic. So giving yourself some grace and trying to take baby steps back into how you might integrate joy is important, instead of thinking you need to solve it all at once. You know, we do the same thing with exercise, right? Like, okay, January 2, I'm gonna blow it out. And we find that, you know, that's not sustainable. So we abandoned that, you know, mid January, the same goes with sort of recapturing, you know, the ways that you find joy. And so, you know, what I recommend is, what are some baby steps into that, like how, you know, again, you mentioned that there's 168 hours, if you're not finding that you have the ability to control your circumstance, and even 123 Of those, like, first, let's figure out why. Because there's generally a way to fix that, and then start integrating, you know, things that you want to do back into your week. Now, that's very helpful. And I, I want to actually delve into that more, because I think this is great, practical advice for parents. Explain more what you mean by the transition ritual? Because I feel like for parents, it's hard to really believe that we shouldn't be hustling all the time, like society has, I feel like for so many of us, society is ingrained in our brains that we should always be hustling. So explain to us why that's not the case, give us the science behind why we shouldn't be always working. Yeah. So it's known as the hedonic flexibility principle, anyone that kind of wants to go down that rabbit hole, you can just Google it. But the kind of summary view is, we know that if we are feeling overwhelmed, if you know, we're kind of frustrated and depleted, that we do want to escape that right. So we start to look for poor forms of escapism, right? Whether that's over eating, drinking, you know, 10, we just want to displace what psychology calls a negative valence, right. But we trick ourselves into thinking that's enjoyable, because we've essentially gotten ourselves out of pain by doing something that's not really leading to our betterment. But for the folks that are using these transition rituals that are deliberate about how they spend their leisure. Paradoxically, they're the most productive people. So not only are they happier, because they're finding joy in their life. But they're contributing so much more to the things that they care about, whether that be their work, whether, you know, if they're, you know, someone that has responsibilities with regards to the family, you know, they're able to take care of those better, they're also able to approach life in a more in an innovative way. So instead of relying on kind of the scripts, you know, like when we're burnt out, right, it's just like, how do I get from point A to point B, but when you have that space, where you're enjoying some of your life, you can, you know, think in a nonlinear fashion. So it really does create this upward spiral, where if you do have these big heavy problems, you can approach them with some positivity, but then also look for solutions that might not, you know, be in your normal repertoire. So it really does create this upward spiral. And to answer your question, the reason that's imperative is even if you feel like you want to prescribe the hustle culture, right, like I actually, you know, my purpose is to serve others, the best way to do that is also to make sure that you're enjoying some of your time. Because, again, when we look at this critically right across all vocations, you know, as you know, I have a whole chapter on people that are changemakers of folks that you know, aren't doing this for a paycheck, but really just trying to make an impact, the way they sustain that, you know, whether that's a loving family, and whether that's, you know, a nonprofit, whether that's the entrepreneur is finding that balance, keeping their fun cup full, so that they have the vigour and vitality, the next day to tackle those big problems. Instead of wearing themselves down to a knob where the next day they're like, You know what, I just don't want to do this anymore. You know, one of the things I found the most profound that you're probably aware of, because a lot of my academic work as a doctoral student was with physicians, is once you do feel depleted, right, empathy for others, goes way down. And we know that correlates with poor patient outcomes, right? And we see that across, you know, all domains like so for the, you know, the person that's trying to be a change maker, like ultimately, like, why am I doing this right? And that the same thing goes with parents, like, you know, if you start to have the stain or like I can't take my kids to the park one more time. Like, do you want to live in that space? And they're easy, low level tactics to change that circumstance. It's just so often when we're burnt out, right, again, we can't get in that space of innovation where we can think creatively, like, how can I change my circumstance? Again, the good news, right is it's subtle shift, you know, and we can get that spiral going back up instead of down. So so just so parents understand the transition ritual really means you have your time for work. And then you come home and you put your work away, and you're there doing something that's not work. Yeah, thanks. So circling back, because I wanted to explain why it was important. But your, the transition ritual is a very, like simple tactic, where, yes, you just know when your workday ends, you make a social agreement with yourself. Some folks that find it hard might make it with their family, right, like so. I now know that multiple people can go on Amazon, get a cookie jar that has a lock on it, you know, and so you put your smartphone in there, and it will open back up at a certain time, right, if that's the environmental tweaks you need to make, so be it, you know, for others, it's just taking a walk around the block, right to clear their head. So you figure out what it is for you. But it's essentially a palate cleanser, right? So that you know your workdays over so that you don't, you know, chew on those problems, and you can be present and mindful, you know, so that you can engage in those relationships that really should be fulfilling, you know, giving you more than just the dopamine that, you know, Mindlessly scrolling gives you and, you know, creates that exchange of oxytocin, that really does make us feel so much better. And the last thing I would add, especially, you know, knowing your audience is that, if you're coming in to the House Bill, you know, on like a work call. And so you have your screen to your face. And yet you're preaching that your kids should stay off screens, like you're modelling the behaviour that they don't, you know, you don't want them to do, and we just met, right, that's kind of commonplace. Now, if you model something, no matter how many times you tell them not to do it, generally, they're going to say, you know, my parents are setting the precedent that this is okay. And so even if they're not doing it, there's still this friction, because they see you doing it and wondering why they can't. So absolutely, I was just thinking that, that it's good for us to have a clear transition between working and then being home and present with our family. But also, were terrible role models for our kids, if we can't put our phones down. Absolutely. And if you're half there, they're going to be half there, too, right? I'm in any parent can do the experiment, I do it because it's not like, you know, I know these facts, but I'm not, you know, I'm still valuable, right. So like, I'll see if I'm texting a friend of a sudden my daughter's now on her phone, right? Because I'm set you Oh, this is, you know, acceptable behaviour. And so, again, that's one of the privileges and powers that we have, as parents, you know, especially if they're preteens or younger, they really will look to us on how to act. And so the more that we can model, the behaviour that we want to see in them becomes extremely important. I love this idea of putting our devices in a box when we get home. And that includes our kids, right? They also should put their laptops and whatever devices they have away. So we can all as a family have the tradition where we come together and spend time together without the distraction of screens. And that's a great idea. We could talk about all sorts of creative ideas for that, but the one that you just shared absolutely right, because you know, my friend near aisle who's also another behavioural scientist, I believe he writes in his book in distractible, they just cut the Wi Fi. You know, he bought like one of those simple $20 things that shuts off lights, and they he just attached it to the router. And so there's no question right? And all of a sudden, you're not the villain anymore. This is just what happens at 8pm the Wi Fi goes down. And guess what, it goes down for you too, right? It's setting the stage that this is a precedent for all of us. And that makes it an easier sell because then you villainize write the apparatus and it's not, you know, the parental monster saying, you know, do what I say, you know, I think it's so important to somehow set boundaries in our home because the screens let's face it, they're so addicting. Unfortunately, the pool is so great that I think something like turning off the Wi Fi sounds like a great idea so that we're we're forced to spend time together. Because before you because they're also what's, you know, not to sound not to get too deep, but then it becomes what's the point of life if all you're doing is working and scrolling on your phone and reading the news and distracted before you know it your kids are grown up? No, that's absolutely right. I think looking at time as a construct that's not renewable. And you know, I unpack that in the book but it is Though helpful, right? I'm sure, you know, multiple guests have come on your podcast talking about, you know, you only get 18 summers. And I think that is such a powerful tool, right. And, you know, depending on who you believe it's even less than that, right? Because we're losing, you know, our older teenagers again, because there is so much distraction now in the world that often, you know, we have less than 18. So using that as a construct to remind yourself that, you know, time is one of the resources that we can't make, then becomes an important tool of creating better options. And someone gave me this gift. That's it's not from my own work. But adding to that thought that it's not just time, but its attention, because we can't create more attention to, right. So like, if you find yourself kind of mind wandering, when you are trying to be present with your kids, reminding yourself that you can't get that attention back either. Like, if you miss that moment with your child, when they did something spectacular, that's going to be a core memory that really does build parental resilience. Like if you miss that, you can forgive yourself, but remind yourself that it's not just time, it's also attention that's not renewable. You know, I'm just thinking in my own home, sometimes the evenings are stressful. So and you pointed this out in your book, that the bath time ritual can be stressful getting your kids to bed, often in my home is stressful. I wish it wasn't, but it's just, the kids don't want to go to bed. And so it becomes it can become it can become a battle. So I mean, I, I find that I struggle with figuring out how to make that time more enjoyable. And I know you brought up some good points in your book about your babysitter and how she made bath time more fun. You know, when I think about myself, realistically, that's where I struggle is how to make some of those mundane tasks become more enjoyable. Yeah, so first, let's start that not all of them are right, like, there's definitely going to be times I still haven't, I figure it out, as you know, in the book, How to change my circumstances in the morning a little bit by decoupling the outcome, because I realised I could never influence that. But at night, it's still a challenge to get them to bed. But I think the important message there is, and I can go into the anecdote about, you know, bathing our kids, which is funny, because again, it points to the fact that we're all different, right? For us, it just never worked out for my wife and I, and my wife insist on bathing them every night, because I tried to solve it by like, could we incrementally do this and she's like, that's not an option for how we're gonna operate and fine. So, and again, we weren't in a financial position where we could have afford a nanny. So we just kind of reframed the idea that, you know, why could a nanny give someone a bath, but not a babysitter, right? Because they're essentially the same thing, we can afford a babysitter. But, you know, we can't really afford full time health. And so that's exactly what we did. We got someone who was obviously more fun than us to, you know, watch them, but also do that task. And that freed us up some time to be able to reconnect. And again, so that was just a subtle nudge, right, we re invented our circumstances, only one hour out of that 168. But it gave us this really fun moment. It alleviated a really painful moment, for all four of us, the kids had so much more fun with Caitlin, right. And so then when it was our time to give back, because there was kind of this playbook, that also improved. And so I think it's a great sort of anecdote for, like we were in this downward spiral where we were just, you know, when that task would come up, and in our habituated lives, the whole thing was miserable, right. And like, you know, with just a few dollars, we were able to change our circumstance, and now have this moment together each week where, you know, we get the bond as a partnership, which we kind of lost sight of up until, you know, making that switch. I love that you're really thinking outside of the box, because a lot of these tasks, I think, as parents I should be doing, but maybe you're right, if they're adding a lot of stress to the home life, thinking about how to outsource them or brainstorming other ways to go about it would be helpful. Well, and I want to be clear, you know, because oftentimes, too, yes, some of these are going to be available in privilege, right, like another, you know, I can't afford a babysitter. But one of the things that I found really interesting because it was another lightbulb for me and something that didn't dawn on me is just how young children can be to do certain chores, right? And so it's somebody else's work. I cited it in the book, but like, you can have kids as young as five or six help you with the dishes. So if you're like, well, I need these things to get done. How can you create sort of a fun environment where you know, whatever works for your family, maybe it's intrinsic rewards. Maybe you Do we use a sticker board? You know, is it actually, you know, roadblocks, credits, or whatever it is. So you figured out what it is for your family dynamic. But you, most of us underestimate when kids can contribute to domestic duties. And if you buy into that, and again, look up the science yourself, you really can free up a lot of time. So a lot of these things that were keeping you busy, right, you can shift your circumstance by getting them involved, making it fun, rewarding them for it somehow. And again, I know, you know, depending on where your psychological slant is, you know, either you frame it as like, this is what a family does, or you reward it, you know, there are different kind of arguments on both sides. But then again, now you have the time to do something else, something that's more enjoyable, whether that's, you know, additional things that you can do with your family, or you know, things that you want to do, like, you know, reclaiming a hobby, or just getting an hour back to read a book, I'm definitely going to have my kids listen to this section of the podcast, because they need to hear that doing chores is good for them, incited by an author, and someone with a PhD in organic organisational psychology explains how it's good for them. And I'll give you like I said, there's additional information on this, I'll give you the link for the show notes. Thank you, thank you. And you know, there's ways to make doing chores, they're never going to be pure fun, I don't think. But there's ways to make it more fun, we'll put music on, we'll make it a competition who can get their chores done faster? There's ways to make it more enjoyable in the home for sure. But I think most parents find that those types of responsibilities, especially the younger you're able to do, it really does excite kids at least episodically. So longitudinally, maybe it will get old, but the novelty of being able to be invited to that type of contribution. Younger generally surprises parents, where they think there's going to be some resistance. And generally, again, if they're invited younger than I think, being able to contribute in that manner, you know, it's backed by transactional analysis, right? But when kids feel like they can play the adult role, so you know, your teenager, yes, maybe they'll be like what, you know, like, I don't have time for this. But again, younger kids tend to be excited to be able to contribute as, quote, unquote, adults, and find it fun. I agree, my kids, there are times when I'm surprised that if I give them a task or a household chore, they are proud of themselves for completing the chore. Absolutely. So I want to talk about the idea of creating core memories. And I love that you talk about scheduling in advance our time, when you talk about the fun habit, really making sure that we take the time to create fun. Can you explain that concept a little more? Yeah, just it goes back to the fact that we've habituated our lives, right. And so what we know through behavioural sciences is things that tend to get done are the ones that we pre meditate and pre commit. And so the folks that I saw that really are able to successfully have these transition rituals, really have their life blended in a really good way. But making sure that when you're kind of thinking about okay, what is fun for me? What are the things I want to try? What are, you know, how can I co create these experiences with the ones that I love? That kind of classic thing I, you know, that I give as an example is like, how many dinners? Have you guys all sat around as a family? Right? Like, what do you want to eat? I don't know, what do you want to eat? You know, by eight o'clock, you're getting pizza that No one enjoys it? Well, the same thing goes for activities, right? Like, if you haven't given it some forethought, a lot of times these opportunities, something as big as spring break. Like I remember unpacking that last year, where I was so surprised with some of the folks that I was working with, essentially just sort of filled in the hours of spring break, because they hadn't given it any forethought. And what a horrible opportunity to miss right where you have this week, even if you had to work through it, where you had these evenings where the kids had resilience, right? They weren't burnt out from the day and you could have, you know, sprinkled in things that would have made it more enjoyable for all. So having what I call a fun file, just kind of thinking about the things that you want to do is an important first step as easy as that sounds, right? We know that the folks that do that work, tend to make better choices, and then pre commit, so actually getting them on your calendar, right. And so it could be as simple as just putting it on in Outlook, because we know that for whatever reason, we've been kind of socially conditioned that whatever's on our schedule we do, right, so like, I'm gonna have fun with my family. Like as simple as that sounds, it means that it happens right? Or if it doesn't happen, there's a lot of friction. You either want to reschedule it or unpack like, why week after week, am I not able to do this right so at the very least it will have you asking better questions, but most likely Okay, we'll ensure that it happens. And then, you know, there's a whole host of other sorts of things that you can do these social commitments. So like, if you feel, you know, you're feeling kind of lonely, you know, making sure that you reach out to a friend and say, hey, you know, I want to have a coffee date. Or, let's, let's go to a comedy show, right and actually buying the tickets ahead of time. So it's sort of this forcing factor to make sure that you do the thing. And I think the who did a really good job, the WHO be in the World Health Organisation, of showcasing how impactful loneliness is right now, right, not just for our children, but for adults as well. So figuring out those ways to not just have fun, but use fun as a mechanism to engage in pro social behaviour really is important, even if it's, you know, just once a month, or whatever it is, I find my for myself and actually carving out time for fun is so important. For so many reasons. One for myself, if I don't carve out time in advance, work will fill in as simple as that. So I have to look at my schedule way in advance and say, This is what we're doing over the summer, this is what we're doing. We're blocking these dates over spring break. And then when the time comes, I'm so happy to have something to look forward to. So even psychologically, if there's something on the calendar, I find, it helps me a lot to know there's something fun in the distance, something that I can anticipate as a as an adventure, that's going to happen. So I agree with you. I think scheduling in time for memories, and not having an expectation that it will happen spontaneously is such a good move. And there's a man named Jesse Itzler, who I really like he talks a lot about carving out time for core memories. And he sells this. He called it his big calendar where there's a calendar of the entire year. And he asked you a word in between there, but I know I left. And I have it, it's actually thinking in my house. And the first of the year actually, before the first of the year, I sit down with my family. They don't really like it, but I make them do it. And I think hopefully they'll appreciate it as the year goes on. But we talk about and we brainstorm, what do we want to do this year? You know, okay, my daughter wants to go to Disneyland. She wants to learn how to ride a bike, I want to go see some of the national parks in Utah. My husband wants to go to Alaska, that's a state he's never been to, we write out our ideas of what we want to what we want to do for fun this year. And then we try to figure out where in the calendar we can make it happen. And I think that's so important, especially nowadays, with everybody so busy, busy with work in school, it's so important to actually carve out the time. Yeah, I absolutely wholeheartedly agree. What you suggested is a good model for anyone listening. And what I would add to that is, to the extent that you can break it up into at least quarterly becomes important because once a year, it's clear that that's not enough, right. And so you described an amazing mechanism for resilience, right? And so I would still argue, you know, try and find simple joys even you know, and index them, as well. But to the extent that you can create these memories, and I agree with Jesse, if you are just having a terrible week, then you can kind of escape your immediate situation by thinking like, yeah, this sucks, but I have this on the horizon, right. And so it does create that ability to have some resilience in the moments that we all have that are gonna suck, right. And so, and your point, just to kind of circle back on one of our earlier things, it's important that those things are in our lives too. Because, you know, this work comes from Barbara Fredrickson, but, you know, under the guise of broaden and build, but we know that if we're always kind of stuck in one mode, right? Whether that be good or bad, when the other happens, we don't really know how, you know, to make use of it. And so having that breadth of different things available to us, then when you know, bad things do happen again, we can remember that good things happen. And then again, if you know, things are always good, and one bad thing happens, it doesn't knock us off on our pedestal and sort of leave us, you know, in a really dark place. Absolutely. Thank you so much for listening to this week's episode of Ask Dr. Jessica Stay tuned for next week where Dr. Rucker and I continue our conversation about his book The fun habit. Also if you feel compelled to do so, if you can take the time to leave a five star review for this podcast. I would be so appreciative. I hope this conversation inspired you to have a little more fun in your week. See you next Monday.