Ep 134: How to balance quality time vs earning money in parenting? Part 2: Mike Rucker, author of The Fun Habit

Part 2 of Ask Dr Jessica with Mike Rucker--the conversation continues about incorporating fun into parenting.  Many of us parents are often so busy making a living, that it can feel we are not spending enough quality time with our children.  Dr Mike Rucker explains the importance of valuing time over money --and the benefits of focusing on quality experiences rather than material possessions.

In addition to being the author of "The Fun Habit",  Dr Rucker is  an organizational psychologist, behavioral scientist, a father and a husband.

Dr Jessica Hochman is a board certified pediatrician, mom to three children, and she is very passionate about the health and well being of children. Most of her educational videos are targeted towards general pediatric topics and presented in an easy to understand manner.

Do you have a future topic you'd like Dr Jessica Hochman to discuss? Email Dr Jessica Hochman askdrjessicamd@gmail.com.

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The information presented in Ask Dr Jessica is for general educational purposes only. She does not diagnose medical conditions or formulate treatment plans for specific individuals. If you have a concern about your child's health, be sure to call your child's health care provider.

Transcript

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Hi everybody, I'm Dr. Jessica Hochman, paediatrician, and mom of three. On this podcast I like to talk about various paediatric health topics, sharing my knowledge not only as a doctor, but also as a parent. Ultimately, my hope is that when it comes to your children's health, you feel more confident, worry less, and enjoy your parenting experience as much as possible. Hi, everybody. Welcome back to the Ask Dr. Jessica Podcast. I'm so happy to have you here. And thank you so much for listening. Today is part two of the podcast with Dr. Mike Rucker, and we talk about his book The fun habit, we're going to pick up our conversation talking about having quality time with loved ones, at the expense of making more money. In this episode, we also talk about experiences, relationships, material possessions and happiness in general. I really enjoy learning from Dr. Rucker, and I encourage everyone to read his book, The fun habit, the messages in his book are truly life changing. I like how you talk about how it's important to think about the scarcity of time rather than focus on money and salary. I think that's such an important concept. Yeah, so in psychology, we call that time affluence, but there is a whole host of different studies to suggest that the folks that do you know, have a prevalence to looking at affluence more of agency and autonomy over time, rather than, you know, collecting money are the ones that tend to be better off, because we just make better choices under that. Right. I think the example that you highlighted is perfect. And that is, you know, okay, we have 365 days in the year. Yeah, this hour is not going to be the funnest thing, you know, because it is kind of homework, but the dividends that it will pay, because now we know what we're doing becomes important, because what we know is the folks that don't do that right kind of mortgage, you know, enjoyment right now, for some future state, you know, whether that's because, you know, meritocracy is, you know, completely ingrained in them, or, you know, this kind of idea that time equates money, you know, so prevalent that, you know, the idea of taking one hour off, you know, they metaphorically see money for hazard pockets. Ultimately, these folks aren't going to have energy down the line. And so, yes, value in time, at least as equally as money and thinking about it as a construct that you need to use wisely, and has, you know, all the benefits that we've talked about, you know, throughout the podcast, the more and more I think about life and what I want to get out of parenting and work, the more and more I think about what I want to get out of life and parenting and work, and is really quality, quality, time quality experiences, and less about what money can physically buy. I look at my kids, and I don't know if you've ever experienced this, but I think the things I will buy them will make them happy, like we'll go out for dessert, or I'll buy them a present. And inevitably, they end up fighting, or there's some sort of argument after those activities, because they'll compare their gift to their siblings gift and will feel alone, they'll feel slighted in some way, my sister got more ice cream, that's not fair, he got the code that's not fair. And there's any talks about this in your book, this idea of comparison, really making us feel less happy and bringing less joy. And so I find with my kids, that the things that I physically buy them makes him seemingly less happy, where when we do experiences together, and we do things as a family, that's really where I find more joy and more fun as our family unit. Yeah. That, you know, it's clear, I think, you know, those have their place, but it's clear that experiential, you know, things tend to have more longitudal value because the lustre of any material good is eventually gonna go away, right? We know that. But like, if, you know, it's a guitar, or it's sports equipment, like, you know, I don't villainize that, you know, other people have, you know, talked about those things, you know, can have more utility than we give them credit. And, and I do agree with that, I think where I'm trying to go is adding one other piece that I found fascinating, if you remember in the book is, but if you do get the child like a whole plethora of toys, then they're kind of stuck trying to figure out like what to do with each one of them. And so, paradoxically, and again, I just find it fascinating, right? The kids that are having the most fun are obviously the ones that have some toys, right? Like if, you know, again, kind of looking at something like Maslow's triangle. If you see all these kids having something and you don't have anything, I don't want to skirt the fact that that's probably not the funnest place but when they look at kids that kind of just have a modest amount of things versus you know, all of the things, the ones that have the modest amount of things, buying amazing ways how to use them, you know, use each one in the funnest ways tend to be the most creative, you know, have these elaborate stories, you know, especially younger children, you know, because they find like really creative ways to use their toys, instead of just sitting and figuring out like Okay, how does this next little trinket work? You know, kind of what adults do, right? Like, they're waiting for instructions, instead of just immersing themselves in the pure joy of like, creativity and having fun with this thing that's like, you know, interesting. Yeah, almost like quality over quantity. If you're careful about what you pick to purchase, I feel like you can really maximise joy from those items. Absolutely. And you're more deliberate, right? Like there is more premeditation, and is this, you know, the thing that is going to bring bring me lasting joy versus, like, you know, the crying child, and you just essentially want to, you know, escape that discomfort in the moment, like, you know, in the hopes that it will bring joy, but to your point, you know, generally it doesn't. And I like what you talk about how having having fun doesn't have to be expensive. I think that a lot of shore, money's helpful, and it can help plan, more trips, more elaborate vacations, but you can have plenty of fun and ways that aren't too costly. Yeah, and I think why that's especially important is that when you find kind of lower hanging fruit, right, it tends to happen more prevalently? You know, and so, you know, what are the things that you can do at home? How can you rearrange the environment so that it is more fun? You know, what can you bundle that's already there? How can you have conversations with your loved ones, so that you're co creating these experiences, so that again, what you found kind of arduous, you know, before because you weren't, you didn't really have input. Now, it's something that is enjoyable, because you're like, Okay, I'm attacking it in a way, or this activity is fun. And so like, a common example, right, is how many parents you see at the park, who are just kind of killing time, you know, scrolling social media, because they feel like, they just need to get their kid out of the house, when if they reminded like maybe a sport they like to play, or if they're in the theatre, you know, many communities have public theatre that are available, whatever is your jam, like, asking your child, would you like to do this with me and actually engaging in them? Now, not only are you creating that core memory, right, because you're not just, it's not just another day at the park, you know, it's like, Oh, we did this amazing thing that day. But you're also you now have a relationship with a child. And the added benefit of that is that if you get yourself in a childlike state, oftentimes, the report that develops there, you'll get a lot more disclosure from them than you ever would, in that parent child relationship, where they're like, you know, they feel there's some things that that they have to hold back, because that's just the natural, sort of, you know, communication agreement, apparently child, right, where, again, if they see you in these moments is kind of appear. What a lot of parents report is like, oh, my gosh, I'm learning things about them that they, you know, would have never disclosed before, you know, in the context of how's your day? Or how did school go, You know what I mean? It's true. Now, I think it's easy to be sort of lazy at the park. A lot of us parents are tired, between work and kids. And so it's just easier in some ways just to sit on the bench and scroll through our phones. But you're right, if you sort of force yourself to get up and play with your kids and be silly and playful. It's such a more meaningful experience really helps deepen your relationship with your child. And they remember it, they remember when you're the parent that gets up and plays with them. So I think, for so many reasons, it's so important just to remind yourself, force yourself just to get up and play with your kids. Yeah, and look back. And most of us, as adults can already proceed, that time is moving fast. So even just that, again, sort of, okay, even if it seems a little bit like work, at first, most people will find after two or three weeks, that not only does it not feel like work, but they actually have more energy, you know, so this notion that like I'm so depleted, I just couldn't integrate this into my day. Like, once you figure out that stride, and it might take a couple of hits and misses, like your child thinks they want to play soccer, because that's what you loved in college and you find out actually, once they tried it, they hate it. And so don't completely abandon it, you know, they're young, give it give it a couple of weeks to figure out like, what is it that's really going to light both of you up, but I'm telling you, those folks that feel like I just, you know, my life is so hard, I can't find the energy for that if they do and again, take baby steps, right? It's just play with one or two hours, you know, and then and then start building on that. They'll find that when they check in with themselves, they're you know, they're actually invigorated. So, you know, coming out of that they're in a much better place than they would have been, if again, they just displaced you know, that time with you know, social media use or you know, kind of just being bored and letting that our past by and explain a little bit the science behind the oxytocin and why getting together. Other and working on spending time on relationships really matters. I think that's fascinating when you describe that in the book. Yeah, that was an insight again, Paul Zacks doing some amazing work, you know, in this area. But one of you all of these neuro chemicals that we commonly talk about, and I confess it in the book, right? We use so simply right, we used, we talk about dopamine being associated with pleasure. But we really now know that it's more excitability and anticipation, right. And that's why we love it. Because it's, you know, the variable reward and it has these evolutionary purposes. Another interesting thing regarding what we've learned about neuro chemicals is that be able to get oxytocin, which is really what makes us feel connected, right. So if we're kind of feeling disassociated and burnt out, and you know, like, the problems are bigger than they should be. Oxytocin is really helpful in that regard. But we can only really receive it through pro social behaviour. It's essentially, that interaction with others. So you could think about it as you're able to give it but you need other people to receive it. And so under that context, it does become important to figure out how can you strengthen the bonds of these relationships, you know, with things that are fun, because when you're in enjoying the time that you spend with others, you're drawn to those activities, right? And when, again, you're in that place of like, I have to do this, right, then that empathy goes down, and there's no connection. And so likely, are you not even excited about doing it. So you know, you're not benefiting from any neurochemical for that matter, you're certainly not making a connection. And when it gets really bad, right, and I'm sure you've seen this, you can actually start to see fissures, which is so unfortunate, right? When the child picks up on the fact that you feel like it's work, and you really don't want to do it, then all of a sudden, you know, it can get into this realm where you're asking, why are we doing it in the first place, and that, that is a really dark spot. So to the extent that you can use some of these simple tools to change that circumstance does become important, especially trying to get in front of it before, you know, it becomes too late. Yeah, and quite frankly, I feel like as parents, we owe it to our kids to figure out how to make them feel important. Make them feel like there's nothing else more important in our lives, and how to give them our undivided attention, and not make them feel like they're like that there's something else more important in our lives when we're with them. Yeah, and I'll hammer it home one last time. But I think if you feel the burden of that, like, Okay, I'm in this place where I realise I'm not doing that, and I desperately want to fix it. Just show some grace and practice, right? It's not going to come all at one time. So we're not suggesting like, Okay, starting tomorrow, you always have to be mindful, because especially if you're depleted and burnt out, right, like it's not sustainable. And I would put that under the umbrella of toxic positivity, right? But do start experimenting with it, see what it's like when you put your phone away and spend 30 minutes, you know, if you've never done it before, just actively listening, instead of trying to, you know, control or apparent and see the benefit, you know, of what happens. And it will always be, you know, as a generality restored and something you want to do more, but then it doesn't become overwhelming, right? This imperative, like, I gotta completely change my parenting style. And honestly, I mean, I'm, as a paediatrician, I'm around kids all day, and I find them to be such a good influence on me. There's so much more fun than us adults. They're not as serious. They're so light and easygoing. And honestly, I think for all of us, we have to remember that they are good for us, like we are good for them. But I think even more I get back from being around children. Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, the concept there is social contagion, right. And to the extent that you can lower your guard and start to take cues from them. There's a whole host of benefits there that, you know, we could have a whole nother podcast about but, you know, they teach you again, to think in a nonlinear fashion, they will introduce you to on wander in ways that you have long forgotten, right, like where they're just explaining the moon to you. And you're like, what, like, you know, it will recapture your imagination of what it means to make meaning again, right. And so, I wholeheartedly agree once you get into that mode and allow them in, and you're in a place of safety to do that. Absolutely. And it's just it really is fun. Yeah. And I'm just curious with all your research and reading on this topic, has it influenced you as a parent? I'm sure it has to have but can you describe how it's influenced you? Yeah, I think you know, certainly the time aspect is is one that we've talked about, you know, looking at that and how I want to create those memories, using that idea of scarcity, like, oh, my gosh, we only have five summers left. But then also this idea of co creation, right? I think that was the big aha moment, I talked about it in the parenting chapter, that so many of us come at it that we have to be prescriptive, right, like, I want this for my child. So this is how we're gonna go about this. And forgetting that there, you've created an individual, right? Yes, you should make an impact. And yes, family rules are important. And if you have, you know, a religious slant, or an ideology that's important to you, these are not things that you need to circumvent, but to the point that you can let them in because they are still ultimately developing as an individual. So you understand their preferences and tastes, and you build, you know, these amazing experiences with them, really becomes important. So that's what I do. Now I talk to my kids, and ask them what they want to do. And oftentimes let them lead, right. And so one of the things I've been doing a lot with my daughter is taking classes, and so she's really into cooking now. So that's, hey, slim, what, what do you want to cook? Because I meant, for me, it doesn't really matter. It's just that I do want to learn to cook. So I'm really enjoying the activity, and I want to spend time with her. But doing that has really helped. And I think, you know, if anyone that resonates with them, the added bonus that I kind of got from the science is that to the extent that you can find a teacher, so again, this doesn't come from a place of privilege, we were paying for lessons, but now we're just doing it on YouTube. And so because someone else is teaching us if either one of us makes the mistake, there isn't that parental mentality, right to try and correct or like, Oh, my, you know, like, don't do it that way. Like, if we make a mistake, then we celebrate it. Like if there's a mess, we know we're going to clean it up. Right where like, again, if it was sort of this formulaic, like I want to teach my kid how to make the perfect steak, there's still times for that, right? But I wouldn't classify that, you know, explicitly as fun because it's tied to an outcome. Instead, it's me and Sloane are taking a course together, and we're going to really enjoy this. And you know, the added benefit is we're learning something along the way. That's fantastic. That's really beautiful. I'm sure I was thinking about it. After you write a book like this, I'm sure it had to reframe how you think about your day and how you spend your time. Yeah, and I'm in for sure. And the most has been, you know, thinking about time and its finality, you know, some of those aspects are dark, you know, because, you know, thinking that we are going to pass away one day doesn't necessarily put you in the best emotional state. But I think the idea of kind of back planning, what are the things, you know, when I do get to retirement that I really want to relish in? What am I going to be proud of, you know, using a tactic as simple as two days, two months and two years, right? Like, if I'm really chewing on making a big decision, like what is going to be the impact in two days, two months and two years. And if it seems like a big deal two days from now, but in two years, I could care less, then I really don't give it a lot of energy, right? Because those bigger moments are going to be the things that are impactful as as we grow older, not the little stuff that does seem like a big deal, but never is. I actually like the last chapter of your book where you talk about death, and you touch upon how it might sound morbid. I actually think knowing that life is finite, I find it makes me more motivated to plan and have fun and be present. So I like when you mentioned that paradoxical relationship between death and life satisfaction, because I actually think it's really true and not as morbid as it may sound from the outset. Yeah, I think at the simplest, you know, viewpoint, the folks that do realise they're going to die eventually, are the ones that find it the easiest to understand time affluence, right? Because, you know, it's interesting from a biological standpoint, and now we're kind of geeking out on the science, but what we believe, right, is that most systems want to survive. I mean, especially if you buy into evolution, right, as creatures, all the way were put together, is to not think about death, because and that includes our psyche, right? Because we're supposed to live in procreate. And so it is something that's a learned skill to understand like, Well, eventually, we aren't going to be here. And so, under that, guys, you do tend to make better decisions, right? Because you start to create options for yourself that resonate with what you want to get out of life instead of, you know, and a lot of folks are familiar with the work of Bronnie Ware, who was a palliative nurse that you know, interviewed people, you know, that that were close to the end of their death, and the folks that didn't do this work are the ones that ended up with them. Less regret. And so as a prophylactic to that, you know, having the cue of knowing, you know, decisions that you make now really are going to have an impact. And we haven't even gotten to the neuroscience, right? I mean, there's emerging neuroscience that suggests that these core memories, and even just indexing novel experiences, creates this neural plasticity that we don't completely understand why yet, but those neural networks seem to be the glue that kind of staves off cognitive decline, right? We think that we can use that cognitive reserve, if we have these weird auto immune, and you probably know better than me, because I, you know, again, I was relying on others knowledge here, but you know, this idea that if we do kind of live life, you know, in a mosaic way, we're building this tapestry of really neat experiences and things that are different, we tend to have better physiological and psychological outcomes later in life I met right now, it's only a correlation. So I think, you know, the causal arguments are developing, but it's clear that there is definitely a correlation to better outcomes across the board. You know, for folks that you know, are looking for novelty, are having fun are living, you know, a life that's blended with joy and purpose. It makes total sense to me if you live every day, the same essentially going to work, going to school, those days, and those weeks all blend together. But if you break it up with a new experience, you travel somewhere, you see something new, you spend a day at the beach, with your kids, whatever it may be that that creates a new core memory. And it makes sense to me that it helps break up time and elongate time. So I'm, I'm on board with that. That line of thinking, I think it's so true. I forgot if I put it in the book, I believe it came from Lisa Feldman. Barrett is an amazing neuroscientist. And so she explained it simply to me, because I so for anyone, hopefully, it's equally beneficial. But this idea if you had 100 copies of the same magazine, would you keep all 100 copies? Or would you keep one copy, and just remember that you had 100. And the brain is the same way, right? We don't remember, every single time we drove to work, we remember that we drove to work this one way 100 different times. And so it's just one neural network, right. And so you could do something as simple as just driving to work a different way every day. And you'll start to encapsulate, you know, more neural plasticity because your brain has to store those neural networks. And so, I think that's as far as we've gotten to kind of understanding that, but, you know, under that context, it totally makes sense, right? You start to have to develop these new memories that creates, you know, spaces in your brain and, and so, then you add on to that, like, Okay, well, that sounds kind of silly, I don't want to just drive, you know, too early to work every day. Well, cool. Now start sprinkling in things that really do fill you up. And so again, not only you're getting those neural benefits, but you know, from a psychological standpoint, if you realise that your life is full of joy, and it's always accessible there, even when you have, you know, even a really crappy year, like you're going to remember that safety net, because you have the ability to savour these things and know that they are there are an abundance, even though life will have its slings and arrows from time to time. Well, thank you so much for this conversation. I think your book really helps. I think as a parent, it really makes me it really motivates me to want to be to maximise my time as much as possible with my kids, having new experiences, making sure I have fun in the future fun. In my day to day, I'll carve out that two to five hours. All of this advice, I think is has been really helpful and fun and a joy to learn from you. So thank you so much. Thank you, Dr. Jessica. It's been a pleasure. Thank you for listening, and I hope you enjoyed this week's episode of Ask Dr. Jessica. Also, if you could take a moment and leave a five star review wherever it is you listen to podcasts, I would greatly appreciate it. It really makes a difference to help this podcast grow. You can also follow me on Instagram at ask Dr. Jessica See you next Monday.