98 Warren Chang — True Art is Sincere

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On today's episode, we sat down with Warren Chang, a California based Fine Artist, best known for his paintings depicting the fieldworkers of Monterey County. Warren tells us about his background and his transition from illustration to fine art. We also discuss the importance of narrative painting and the use of photography as a reference. Warren emphasizes the importance of sincerity and moral purpose in art, influenced by the philosophy of Leo Tolstoy. He also tells us about the challenges of transitioning from illustration to fine art, including the need for supplemental income through teaching. Warren also shares some of his insights on marketing, exhibiting work, and building relationships with collectors who are drawn to an artist's body of work. Finally, Warren tells us all about his mentorship program focused on creating narrative paintings!

Warren's FASO Site:
https://www.warrenchang.com/

Warren's Facebook:
https://www.facebook.com/warren.chang.31

Warren's Mastrius Page:
https://www.mastrius.com/warren-chang-mentorship/

Transcript

Warren Chang: 0:00

I think that probably the most important aspect of fine art is sincerity, in my opinion, honesty and sincerity. So if you're painting, I think some artists may be convincing them that themselves, that they are actually painting what they really, truly believe in, you know, whether it's a landscape or a cowboy, you know, but sometimes I'm wondering, because I think it comes through in the end, the sincerity of whether it's coming from the heart, whether it's coming from the truth. You know that, I think that that the audience, the viewer, looks at a painting and they're able to respond to it because of, you know, of whether it's real or not real.

Laura Arango Baier: 0:40

Welcome to the boldbrush show, where we believe that fortune favors the boldbrush video is Laura Arango Baier, and I'm your host. For those of you who are new to the podcast, we are a podcast that covers art marketing techniques and all sorts of business tips specifically to help artists learn to better sell their work. We interview artists at all stages of their careers, as well as others who are in careers tied to the art world in order to hear their advice and insights. On today's episode, we sat down with Warren Chang a California based fine artist best known for his paintings depicting the field workers of Monterey County. Warren tells us about his background and his transition from illustration to fine art. We also discussed the importance of narrative painting and the use of photography as a reference. Warren emphasizes the importance of sincerity and moral purpose in art, influenced by the philosophy of Leo Tolstoy. He also tells us about the challenges of transitioning from illustration to fine art, including the need for supplemental income through teaching. Warren also shares some of his insights on marketing, exhibiting work and building relationships with collectors who are drawn to an artist's body of work. Finally, Warren tells us all about his mentorship program focused on creating narrative paintings. Welcome Warren to the boldbrush show. How are you today?

Warren Chang: 1:51

I'm doing great. Thanks for having me.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:54

Yeah, thanks for being here. You have such an amazing amount of experience that I'm really looking forward to diving into your entire life, and well, as much as we can, at least in a small period of time, we can chat and also your amazing work. I really, I'm a huge fan of multi figurative narrative work, which you have, and you have another thing that I really love, which is illustration experience, which I think is so key to really good narrative painting. But before we dive into all of that, do you mind telling us a bit about who you are and what you do? Sure.

Warren Chang: 2:27

I'm Warren Chang and I'm coming from here to you, from Monterey, California. My background is I was, I'm currently a fine art painter. I'm known for, mainly painting the subject of farm workers, specifically the farm workers of Monterey County, which is sort of a homage to the artists of the past, like Francois Malay and, you know, others in the 19th century. And I also paint interiors, or are not as much anymore of sort of that, or sort of reminiscent of Vermeer. I've coined them biographical interiors because they're basically autobiographical images of my own life in my studio or classroom or my even in my own personal home and family. And so that's basically who I am as a fine artist, my and my previous to that, I was a illustrator for 20 years, and so yeah, that's who I am, and that's what I'm continuing to do,

Laura Arango Baier: 3:33

wonderful, yes. And actually, I really want to know, because you did just mention a couple of your influences, and I definitely see those 19th century realist painters in your work, for sure, in the the use of very diffuse light, or very, you know, overcast, which helps bring out a lot of the color, and even their poses, it's very, I feel like those poses that field workers tend to have a very timeless and of course, your interiors are gorgeous as well, and the groupings and everything. And since you do have that illustration background, actually, before we dive into that, do you mind telling us why did you even start your career as an artist? What led you into illustration and painting in the first

Warren Chang: 4:19

place? Well, like millions of other artists, I enjoyed doing art when I was a little kid and, you know, basically drawing little drawings of spacemen and cowboys or whatever. But it was really my first influence was as a child, was Frank Frazetta, someone who's probably the very famous as a fantasy illustrator. I'm almost a little embarrassed to mention that, but I can't deny that that was really a huge influence on me in terms of my love of art, and then when my parents bought me a book on Norman Rockwell, then forget it, that my path was like cemented. But. So I always loved art so and then when I entered art school at the Art Center in Pasadena, I majored in illustration, not particularly because, well, mainly just because that was the only, only major where you could learn to draw and paint realistically. Most all the fine art was basically, you know, abstract or conceptual, and I really completely didn't understand that world. So in order to learn how to draw and paint realistically, I majored in illustration. And then when I and I did, work as an illustrator for 20 years, and then at some point, really, later in the late 90s, when things started to become digital, in all the basically, I was working doing mainly paperback book covers, and the field was going digital, so I really made a decision that I did not want to go digital, and I decided to to take the path of being a traditional fine artist. And I think one of the questions, well, I should reveal it, but what that led me was that transition from fine art, from illustration, to fine art, and that was really, for me, it was really quite a huge transition. It wasn't an easy one. I know it's off. It's a very common story, because I know a lot of illustrators you know, moved into fine art, but for me, it was a very individual decision, and it wasn't easy at all to do in the late 1990s you know, I was living in New York City, and if you're familiar with the artists in New York there, most of the artists I knew painted from life, they painted from live models. And so I pretty much followed suit. So when I when I transitioned to fine art, the only paintings I exhibited were paintings I did from life, you know, paintings of, you know, figures or portraits or still lifes. I didn't do much of landscape, but that's pretty much all I did in terms of my identity as a fine artist, because I thought at the time that it couldn't be fine art unless it was done from life. So that was the sort of dogma i i had adhered to. But, you know, later on, when I moved back to California, I met a lot of younger artists who were working from photographs, who were also were fine artists, but they were working from photographs, and I was quite impressed with what they were doing. And so I decided that maybe it's okay to use photo references. And really, I don't think I could be doing the paintings that I'm doing today, which are the narrative paintings of multi figure paintings without having used having to the tool of using photographs. I want to mention a quote by Norman Rockwell, who is one of my heroes because he worked from from life for the first 20 years of his illustration career. Wasn't until about 1940 that he that he started to incorporate photography and his I use this. This is a quote from his from the book 40 illustrators and how they work, by Watson gupsel. And he says, I don't suppose anyone will follow my advice, but it is better not to use photographs until you have proved yourself your ability to get along wholly without them. I just think those words were perfectly chosen, and I do agree with it. So although I do work from photo references, I think it's for the aspiring artist. I really think they should train as a fine artist like yourself with your background.

Laura Arango Baier: 8:34

Yes, I completely agree. And

Warren Chang: 8:37

to take it on to another tangent, I want to say that the art schools today tend they teach artists to draw and paint beautifully, at least a lot of the ateliers, like the one you went to. But one of the things I find that many of them seem to come out of school wondering is they've learned to paint a portrait really well, and they learn to draw really well, but what do they do with it? They don't know what to do with it. And part of that problem, I think, is they don't know how to create a narrative painting. They don't know how to compose the picture and to tell a story. So I think that's, I think, huge, and something that, you know, artists need to or aspiring artists need to address, because unfortunately, most that's not really addressed so much in art school. They just sort of concentrate on how to paint a head or how to draw a head, and they don't really tell you what to do after you learn how to do that. So then art students are sort of floundering afterwards and wondering what they're supposed to do. So I often have art students come here having graduated some schools like you, you graduated from, and they, you know, they come to my studio and they want, they asked me, How do you do that? But for me, it's been something I've been doing for so many years as an illustrator, and it's just and it's also because of what. I love, I love doing multi figure compositions. I love putting pictures together. That's the kind of art that I love. And it's originally in the 1980s I wanted to be a history painter, and that involved, you know, painting multiple figures and creating, you know, biblical scenes or historical scenes or battle scenes with, with, you know, casts of 1000s. And I started, I had a mentor in the 1980s who I had a a a correspondence with through mail. Those days, there wasn't a computer and there wasn't email, so I would literally write him a letter and he'd write back, and we just correspond that way. His name was Stanley Meltzoff, and he's now deceased. He did a lot of historical illustrations, but he sort of, he did actually end up doing fine art, but he became probably the premier fish painter. So if you look him up, you'll find out that he was probably the greatest fish painter that ever lived. But that's something he just sort of fell into commercially, because during his illustration years, he did these beautifully rendered painted Narrator pictures. And his advice to me was basically to study the old masters. And so we, basically, I went back to studying the old masters and he but he also cautioned that, you know, if I someday reach my goal and I'm able to paint these pictures that I vision, you have to ask, who's going to buy them? You know, how are you going to make a living once you create these pictures, because they are very cost, costly in terms of all the models they have to hire and so forth. You know, sometimes it might involve wardrobes, you know, getting props and things like that. Basically, it's almost like making a movie gathering every finding a location you're hiring all the right models, you know, making the changing props, whatever, all these things that you need to do to create the picture that you envisioned to create. Anyways, I went well beyond your question. Perfectly

Laura Arango Baier: 12:17

fine. I'm here for the for the very lovely ride you're taking us on, because you have mentioned a lot of really excellent points. So I'll just go down a bit of a list here. Because the first point that I really liked that you made was the, now, what that happens after the, I guess the new range of academic schools that are happening because, of course, you didn't have those during your time. I mean, maybe there was the Art Students League in New York City, but even then, you know, it was very small, and it isn't quite the same as today, where we have a lot more variety of these schools. And I think you're doing great, like you said, in teaching technique, but there's actually a part of it historically that is missing, which is usually, you know, in the French atelier. So at least during the time of Jerome, they did have, like, almost like a postgraduate sort of residency style thing, where the artist remains at the school and the they would have their own work that they would produce. And usually that would also lead them to try to apply to the PRI de Rome, which at the time, was like the biggest award you can get for painting, especially historic painting, which I love that you mentioned it, because, yeah, figures like Jerome really carried that as well, or others like Fortuny and other really wonderful historic painters of the time, and it's great to look back at them as well. And then the use of photography. Oh my gosh, that quote by Norman Rockwell, amazing. I totally agree. I think once you master seeing reality as it is without the robotic eye of the camera distorting things, then the pictures themselves can be used, but as reference, right? Because you already know what's what information is missing. Because all these cameras, they take away so much beautiful color notes and all of these things that you can only really get from life, but once you kind of get used to them, it's very easy to recreate them in your own way. So I love that you mentioned that, yeah, I

Warren Chang: 14:21

think that the photography can capture subtle gestures and actions and movements better than actually painting from life, which is very static in comparison. So I really couldn't really capture these. You know, I really love capturing the field workers in their their at work, where you see these subtle movements that are bent backs and just subtle gestures and capturing those, those are really what I enjoy doing, but I couldn't do it without taking pictures, because you're capturing a fraction of a moment. Well, if you're working from life, it's almost impossible to capture those kinds of actions and movements natural. At least. So there's, you know, pros and cons for both. I just, you know, I just adhere to that and

Laura Arango Baier: 15:09

anyways, yeah, I think I also read in your blog that for a while, when you were doing that transition from illustration into fine art, you almost looked down on your illustrative sort of like, not from life thing. But, of course, you must have had a change of heart as well, because there are useful parts of illustration that honestly, people like me who have gone to academies, there's something that I personally envy a bit about the illustration sort of way of teaching, which is, of course, the narrative side especially, I'm also wanting to go down the path of narrative painting. How would you say that your illustrative skills were you were able to carry them over into your fine art?

Warren Chang: 15:54

Well, I totally do now, and I've totally embraced it, but when I first started teaching, let's say, at Pratt or even at the Academy of Art, I would really kind of hide the fact that I was an illustrator. And I would hear from students, they would criticize me for it, saying he tried, you know, he tries to. He criticized his illustration, yet he was an illustrator, you know, that kind of thing. It was just, I just really adhered to a dogma about it. And I was like it was, but eventually I just sort of discarded that and realized, you know, embraced being an illustrator and embraced the things that I learned as an illustrator to apply to my fine art, actually to me when I was doing those paperback book covers I mentioned, which was for about 10 year period, it was almost like getting paid the to learn to paint. I really feel that that's what it was I was, it was like being paid and I was able to learn my craft through through the paperback book industry. So I was very fortunate now looking back that I had that, that this is something that artists today don't have, and, you know, it was just basically a hard luck school, is what I went through. So it does, it does apply. I do embrace my illustration roots now, and I'm basically used pretty much the same methods in developing a thumbnail sketch, then doing a larger drawing, more tighter drawing, and developing color studies that lead up to the final painting. And especially when you're working on a larger work, I really feel like you need to go through those preliminary steps in order to ensure success, a successful final painting.

Laura Arango Baier: 17:40

Yeah, yeah, that's a very good point. And then also, you know, it is also very timely process. It takes a lot of a lot of times when, I mean, like, you can't just, I mean, you can. There are people who work faster, but I'm also one of the people who I like to take my time to create a piece. And it seems like your work, especially does have that feeling of investment of time and investment of, I don't want to say perfectionism, but you really put your best foot forth with your

Warren Chang: 18:08

work. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I, I, I've, ever since I embarked as a fine artist. I don't think about how much time I'm putting into it. I put as much time as necessary to create the paintings that I want to create. And you know, it doesn't, doesn't matter how long it would take. And you're right. It's a very pains, a rarely time consuming process, particularly doing the the underpainting I do a grisaille, and that grisaille takes almost longer than the application the color, so but it's worth it, because once you get that thing that, that underpainting, done, then, you know, the process of applying color becomes much easier and quicker, yeah, and it also unifies the painting, of course, yeah,

Laura Arango Baier: 18:56

it's and I love that you mentioned that too, that you know, you have this very specific process. Because I, you know, it's very funny, because I have a bit of a side obsession with, you know, things like scientific things like chaos theory. And actually, one of the things about chaos theory is that 80% of the results of something are dependent on that first 10 to 20% of the, I guess, the organization of things, right? So if you already have, like, a good amount of that beginning, the opening circumstances of your painting, right, that it's already set forth in a very stable way, you're already ensuring 80% of the results just from that very solid beginning, which is really important, and I can definitely see it in your work, that it is thought through. And I love that, oh, and I love the colors too. I love the grays and the use of, yeah, kind of like how I mentioned earlier, the diffuse, sort of light, where it feels like a almost like a gloomy day. Well,

Warren Chang: 19:59

I think. You've described it beautifully. And I like that theory you described as well. I think that this probably is a good way segue into mentioning that quote we had mentioned earlier, before the podcast started. And, you know, I think there's a Chinese quote that Chinese saying that says, paint, read 100 books, paint one picture. And really, what that's telling you is to, you know, really think and live life, and really, you know, before you actually paint a picture. And I think it also, there's another suggestion in that statement that's saying quantity, quality over quantity. And I always tell students about, you know, Vermeer is a perfect example of an artist who painted, they're saying maybe 30 paintings in his lifetime. Yet we all know who he is. He's basically one of the greatest artists in art history. Yet there's only 30 paintings attributed to him, which sort of proves that it's not all about quantity of painting. It's about the quality. And that's pretty much what I adhered to as an artist throughout my career, is trying to paint good pictures and not worrying about actually, not worrying about the money or whether they're going to sell. And really, that was really a secondary it's a byproduct of painting the pictures. It's not the goal. I think that's probably the biggest danger for fine artists, is to basically paint for money, because that's going to that's almost the anti thesis to fine art. So, you know, think about creating something really good, and probably somebody will buy it, and not only that, you'll be recognized.

Laura Arango Baier: 21:44

And it's definitely much more authentic. Because, like you said, No one, no one really goes into this with that mentality. I mean, I feel like people like like artists, like us, we have this innate desire to do it in the first place. We have this innate desire to want to express something, and just that alone says a lot, right? We don't we? I mean, I don't know about you, I would totally do this for free, if you know, I could live my life in peace, right? And be able to do it anyway. So, yeah, I agree the mentality of, you know, money before painting it can be very risky and dangerous because it's disingenuous in the first place, and then the market is not something you can rely on, right? So you may as well make your own market with your own work that will last much longer than the flimsy, sort of like things that switch around in the market every five minutes. Well,

Warren Chang: 22:39

I don't know if I, I hope you're right, but I'm not sure if I'm certain that's actually true, because that's exactly what I did, is I created my own market. There's because, honestly, there are markets for, you know, people paint still lives. They paint. There's certain subjects that sell, like still lifes and landscapes. Landscapes is a huge industry now, you know, magazines and conventions and on and on and on, planar organizations. There just so many of them. You can't count. And so that's really a very marketable direction to go in, as well as the Western market, obviously, which is a huge built in market. There's already collectors waiting to buy these pictures. And there's, there's, you know, so to for me, I stuck to what I wanted to paint, which is the farm workers, which had no market at all. So, and fortunately, you know, for myself, they I have sold well. My paintings have sold well. So I was able to create a market by itself, like you, like you described. But I don't really know that that's really the most, wisest thing to do in terms of actually, the actual, you know, business practicality of it, but it worked for me. I wouldn't, I wouldn't recommend it to everybody, but, you know, because we all have to eat Yes, so yeah, but that

Laura Arango Baier: 24:05

was, yeah, it takes a lot of gumption and a lot of risk taking in that sense, I do think yes, if your personal market aligns with the actual market, right, like you said, landscapes, westerns, which are, in my opinion, right now in the United States, the most top selling things are landscapes in the Westerns. Then, yeah, that's great. You know, it lined up with something someone wanted to do, but for someone like you, who has a very particular interest and you you're just stubborn about it, but you were able to make it work, that's even better. I mean that that gives you a sense of fulfillment as well, especially since you are able to sell,

Warren Chang: 24:44

yeah, and I think that probably the most important aspect of fine art is sincerity, in my opinion, honesty and sincerity. So if your paintings, I think some artists may be convincing them that themselves, that they are actually. Really painting, what they really, truly believe in, you know, whether it's a landscape or a cowboy, you know, but sometimes I'm wondering, because I think it comes through, in the end, the sincerity of whether it's coming from the heart, whether it's coming from the truth. You know that I think that that the audience, the viewer, looks at a painting and they're able to respond to it because of, you know, of whether it's real or not real, you know. And so, you know, I think that, you know, that is probably the most single, most important factor in art, I think, is sincerity, which, by the way, I'm, I'm stealing from somebody else, which segues into, I've been probably one of my biggest influences, most most recently is Leo Tolstoy. He was the Russian philosopher and writer, obviously, of war and peace. He was a big social activist, and he wrote books. There's a book he wrote called what is art. And I actually read the book over and over and over again. Actually, in reading the audio book and then making notes and outlines, I really wanted to dissect it to pieces, and I really found it resonated with me personally, quite quite a bit. And what, basically, in a nutshell, what his philosophy is, is that the purpose of art is to educate man's feelings. And when he says art, he's not relegating that to painting only, but to writing and to music, you know, and performing arts, everything. And again, he also mentions that he says true art is modest, and he says true art is sincere. And he mentions the word sincerity quite frequently in terms of describing what the what the quality of art should carry. Also the fact that he sort of addressed a lot of moral, moral and social. He believed that art should address moral and social purpose. Have a moral and social purpose, and that's something that I've sort of adopted in my own art. And anyways, Tolstoy is really big influence on me. Yeah,

Laura Arango Baier: 27:19

yeah, no. And I love the part about how you just mentioned about wanting to include that morality in your work, right? Because, in the end, what you create is almost inseparable from the self, right? Because I feel

Warren Chang: 27:33

like from a reflection of who you are, what you create exactly. And

Laura Arango Baier: 27:37

I do see that the act of creation as an extension of the self in a lot of ways, and an exploration as well of the self. So I do find that, I do you know that ethical side, the moral side, is, in my opinion, quite important as well with the work, which also, if it's sincere, you know the ethics, the ethics pulled through pretty well. But yeah, I really love that quote. That's a I love Tolstoy, and I'm actually reading Dostoevsky right now. Yeah, there those Russian writers. There's just something about them that's very it's very grim but very poetic. There's like, a melancholic beauty in the way that they see life, which actually I can see that reflected in your work as well. There's a bit of melancholy in the in the colors.

Warren Chang: 28:26

Yeah, absolutely. And you mentioned my color before, and I it's pretty it's well documented that I paint with a limited palette, and this is basically in the tradition of the old masters. They painted with the limited palette, and they used, you know, brighter colors, very sparingly, and that's what I do as well. And it creates, just it. It's almost a comparison to black and white photography, where I feel like in black and white photography, it just seems to have, it just seems to be more artistic. And I can't put my finger on why, but I think it carries over to painting, that sort of more muted, limited color. It just creates a tonality that is more seems to be deeper, a little more emotional, and that's what I use as my vehicle. I paint even my landscapes with the same palette. So very controlled. Yeah,

Laura Arango Baier: 29:21

I'm a huge fan of limited palette. So I also use limited palette, actually, because the organization, in my opinion, and you know, everyone can use whatever colors they want, but I find that, you know, using that, what they call the appellees palette, or the Zorn palette, I think it has a really nice harmony within it that can be really hard to achieve if you're using more pigments, because they're all going to be fighting each other for, I guess, for for that harmony, it's almost like, you know, when you it's, I'd like to compare it to music actually, when you have, like, something and in, in the chord of C or in the chord of E, you know, you want to kind of stay within that. Create that harmony, you know? Yeah. And then the other really interesting thing that I find right, because you were able to, well, you already told us your entire sort of trajectory from Illustrator to fine artist. And of course, illustration pays, right? You can actually get a job in illustration until, of course, it became digital, and then that became scarce. But when you decided I'm going to be a fine artist, what was that jump like for you to go from, you know, maybe a regular paycheck to maybe a less regular one, how? How was that for you?

Warren Chang: 30:32

It was very difficult, very difficult. And basically the answer is, especially if you want to paint the pictures that you want to paint is you got to figure out another source of income, because we all have to pay, I have a mortgage to pay. We have to eat, so forth and so on. So I basically taught. Teaching became my livelihood. It's a supplement that's mainly all been part time, but it's a supplement to painting on my own. So basically, that's gave me the freedom to paint what I wanted to paint without the pressure of selling. So that was basically, I kind of knew that from the very beginning that that would be the way to go. So when I was in New York and I'd made that transition, I'd already been teaching at Pratt so and then I knew that that was always going to be part of the equation. But in addition to that, teaching improved actually helped me to grow as an artist, because what you're doing with your students is basically testing out all your theories on them, telling them your ideas and telling them your approach to painting, and then seeing, hey, does this work or not? And then you see the students flourish, and you think, Oh, well, hey, that's it's actually working. But I think a lot of the things about that I'm when you're teaching, it just reinforces what your own approach is, what your theories are. So teaching, I think, is really a very, I really recommend students to teach in order to grow as artists and try it out. And but for me, yeah, I definitely, I still teach, and I think it's just a way to, I mean, even if and my paintings sell, and they sell for, sometimes for great, greater, greater amounts of money. But the consistency is very, very inconsistent. You know, you may all the sales may happen in just two months of the whole year. So, you know, you but the bills keep coming every every month, so you have to have a way to deal with that. So making that transition was probably, was really difficult, mainly financially, I think, try to figure out how to navigate that. Because, like you were mentioning, illustration is much more stable. It was a much as well as, like, a steady job. I was getting work every month and on a regular basis, and it felt like a steady job, and I could always count on it. But then once I made the step transition, things started to fade away on the illustration side, and then I had to rely more and more on teaching. So that was my journey. Yeah,

Laura Arango Baier: 33:18

at boldbrush, we inspire artists to inspire the world, because creating art creates magic, and the world is currently in desperate need of magic. Boldbrush provides artists with free art marketing, creativity and business ideas and information. This show is an example. We also offer written resources, articles and a free monthly art contest open to all visual artists. We believe that fortune favors the boldbrush video, and if you believe that too, sign up completely free@boldbrushshow.com that's B, O, L, d, b, r, U, S, H show.com. The boldbrush Show is sponsored by Faso. Now, more than ever, it's crucial to have a website when you're an artist, especially if you want to be a professional in your career. Thankfully, with our special ink faso.com forward slash podcast, you can make that come true and also get over 50% off your first year on your artist website. Yes, that's basically the price of 12 lattes in one year, which I think is a really great deal, considering that you get sleek and beautiful website templates that are also mobile friendly, e commerce, print on demand in certain countries, as well as access to our marketing center that has our brand new art marketing calendar. And the art marketing calendar is something that you won't get with our competitor. The Art marketing calendar gives you day by day, step by step, guides on what you should be doing today right now in order to get your artwork out there and seen by the right eyes so that you can make more sales this year. So if you want to change your life and actually meet your sales goal this year, then start now by going to our special link, faso.com forward slash podcast, that's F, A, S, o.com. Forward slash podcast, yeah, and I'm not surprised. You know, I. Do, I do find a lot of artists. They do turn to teaching precisely because there's always someone who wants to learn, right? There are always, you know, students out there who want to carry on that torch of painting. So it's very wonderful. And I really love that you mentioned that you can test out all of your theories on the students to see how they do, because it is a bit like that. You know, we it's very interesting how visual language and spoken language, don't, you know, they don't really match up always, because visual language is much more complex and explaining things right? To try to explain one concept, you have to use, gosh, hundreds of words to even try to get to the real meaning of it. So, you know, trying it out on students actually is such a great practice because it also teaches you more, right? Because you have to learn the the whatever concept it may be three times better than the students so that the students can get it, because it's such a, it's such a balance of a push and pull of information.

Warren Chang: 36:03

And even to on the technical side, I'd be having the students working with particular technique, maybe a certain paper, maybe a certain brush, maybe a certain charcoal pencil, and I wasn't even convinced that it was the, you know, the the correct direction, then the students would prove to me that it was because they do such wonderful work. And I'd be, hey, I'd be really, I'd be as impressed I learned as much from them as I do from they from me. Really, I'm sure every teacher has that experience.

Laura Arango Baier: 36:34

Yes, definitely. And then I did want to also ask, because, you know, the teaching probably happened for a while, right? But then you must have started selling a bit more and more. So I wanted to know what was, did you have a good, particular turning point in your career when it really started to take off a little bit

Warren Chang: 36:57

more? I think everything happened pretty gradually, you know. But if I had to say, if there was one, there were many different, you know, highlights that happened along the way. Probably the biggest one was about in the year 2007 it just seemed to be an avalanche of publicity. I think I was, I was profiled. And I think seven art publications separate, different art publications in the year 2007 so that really, I mean, people really couldn't ignore me because I was right in their face. So I think that really was probably the biggest, you know, change or thing that would occur. I mean, I stick to the same path. Anyways, I'm still going to paint what I'm doing, but I did that was really pivotal, and part of the way those opportunities happen is just to get your work out there. So I would recommend you know students too, and I know a lot of artists that are painting, and they don't, they're afraid to expose their work. They don't really get out there and show their work around. And so I really recommend you exhibit where you can if there's exhibitions, enter them. If there's contests, enter them. I've entered contests. You know, competitions. Just get your work out there and one thing leads to another and exposes your work. And I that's how it happened. For me, it's just getting your work out there and and and I know it's people, they're afraid. People are afraid to enter contests, and they are very arbitrary and and very, you know, just a matter of luck in most cases. But you know, it's the only way you're going to get your work out there.

Laura Arango Baier: 38:36

Yeah. And that actually segues really, really nicely into my next question, which was, Do you have any specific marketing tools that you like to use to get your work seen and sold?

Warren Chang: 38:49

Well, you know, I'm pretty much established now, so I don't really feel like I really have to to do anything, to be honest. But in terms of, I mean, I think having a website is probably the single most important thing to have, because people find me. I don't know how they do, like yourself even, but people find me. And I don't know how they find me, but they sometimes they're coming from, you know, Paris, or from Russia, or from, you know, Portugal. I mean, I don't know how this happens, but without that website, it wouldn't happen. So the website is where they discover you, and they learn more about you, and they see your work. I haven't sold work through the website very frequently, but it does actually happen as well. So websites, you can sell work direct, and now I think a lot of art galleries are getting savvy to that, and they're starting to rely more and more, especially since the pandemic, more and more, on online sales. So it's just part of, you know, keeping up with the times and how things of technology has sort of taken over. But social media, I guess that's something else. I do participate in Facebook frequently, but not so much Instagram. I don't really know whether you really get any real opportunities through social media. I'm sure you do, but I'm doubtful in some ways, because it's a little bit of an illusion. I think you think that people are, you know, watching or looking but I guess there's probably just a small percentage of people that are actually participating. And I don't put as much weight on social media as I do having a website. Yeah,

Laura Arango Baier: 40:34

yeah. And actually, you make a really great point, because social media is useful, but you need a website, right? Like, I find that social media is actually more of like a lead magnet to pull people onto your website, to get them to sign up for your newsletter or read your blog and get to know you more, because those are the people who would actually buy your work, which the people who have somehow found you on the internet. They couldn't have found you without your website, right? So I think that's an excellent point, that website is really, really important. It's, it's almost like that missing key that a lot of people, a lot of artists who want to sell their work through social media, what they're missing is specifically that website. Yeah,

Warren Chang: 41:14

and having said that, this is just the reality of how things are. But, I mean, nothing can replace looking at an original painting, right? I mean, I can't believe that people are judging works and judging contests by looking at digital images, because it's really not the same experience at all. So it's but I guess it's just the reality that's the way, that's the way it is. And,

Laura Arango Baier: 41:39

yeah, yeah, I agree. And there are a few contests like figuratives. They do judge the the original work. So the artists who get picked as finalists, they do have to send their physical piece, and the judges see it in person, and there's someone holding it so they can all see it. Um, but I agree, yeah. And in the digital age, it's become a bit it's been interesting, because I find that more recently, there's been more of an emphasis on handcraft and more emphasis on that return of like, the the handmade and the the seeing things in person. So I'm very happy about that, because people like you and and other artists can, you know, shine again right after being in the time of like, we're, we're, we were completely digital, and now we're slowly coming back into that craft

Warren Chang: 42:26

like I'm not, I'm not fearful of AI. Everybody's freaking out over AI. But, you know, a an original painting can never be replaced, you know, and I don't think that will, it will ever die, at least not in my lifetime, so, which is maybe not that many years. But I just think that original paintings, you know, they can't be replaced. They're just, you know, and I think there's never, there's always going to be an interest for original art.

Laura Arango Baier: 42:55

I agree, yeah. I mean,

Warren Chang: 42:57

in digital work, I mean, AI work that's, it's doesn't really exist, right? It's just a digital pixels or whatever. So I don't really, I don't have any fear of that medium, as it seems to be causing a lot of stir, certainly for illustration and anything commercial publications, I think it would that's something to be reckoned with. But I don't think for fine art, original paintings, it's, it's a threat.

Laura Arango Baier: 43:25

Yeah, yeah, I agree. It's a little bit like, apples and oranges, where there's always going to be, like, there's a market for the oranges, there's a market for the apples and and someone you know might want to buy the digital stuff, and they'll be happy with it. And there are people out there who will buy the non digital stuff, and they'll be happy with that as well. So that's what, what matters too, is that it's not, it's not going to disappear, like you said, in your lifetime, or in mine, or hopefully future lifetimes, because we are still carrying a torch from essentially the time of the caveman who painted on walls. So I don't think it's ever gonna die well,

Warren Chang: 44:03

I hope so. Yeah, I should, yeah,

Laura Arango Baier: 44:06

yeah, definitely. And then I did want to ask you, because you also mentioned how your career was very gradual, right? But of course, you couldn't have been on all those publications without having put all the work in, right? Like there are a lot of people out there who have this idea of success as being like an overnight thing, but I do think it is, like you say, and like how a lot of other artists that I've interviewed have said, where they have put in the time and the effort and they were ready with basically, I believe luck is just being at the right place at the right time with the right preparedness, which you had all of that at that point because of all of those years of working. And I wanted to ask you, was it also through those publications that you were able to get collectors? And do you find that you do have repeat collectors?

Warren Chang: 44:56

I don't know whether the magazines contributed getting collectors. Is, I wish I could have a I could give you some magical advice about that, but I really don't know how it happens exactly. I do have repeat collectors. There's people patrons who own many, many paintings and and that have become good friends. And you know, basically they have maybe a dozen of my pictures. So it just, I don't know how it happens, Laura, I wish I could, I wish I could explain it, but I don't have an answer to that. It's just some of its chance. Sometimes people are just, you know, one time buyers. They buy once, and then that's it. And then occasionally there's someone who collects, you know, and those are far and few between, but they're like more than they're worth their weight in gold. Finds a patron who is repeat buyer, who collects your work. And I always thought that that was what was important. I always thought, if I collected art, which I do to on a modest degree, I thought that I collected art not because it's a pretty picture, not because it's a particular painting that I really love. That's not why I collect art. It's because I love that particular artist so I want a piece of them. So for instance, Norm, we mentioned Norman Rockwell. I have a, you know, his first edition autobiography, signed by him. And that's, I feel like I have a little piece of him. I mentioned Frank Frazetta. I have a book of his that's signed by him. And so I feel like I have a little piece of them. So that's, that's kind of been my motivation. So I do. I always loved an illustrator named um Dean Cornwell. I don't know if you're familiar with him, but he did a lot of narrative works, and is probably among the top five Golden Age illustrators. But I I used to collect all his newspaper clippings or magazine clippings in a album when I was in the 1980s when I was in my 20s, and so I really, really, he was a big hero of mine. So I was amazed when I was actually able to acquire one of his paintings for a very reasonable price. And so I was able to have one of his paintings. So basically, what I'm saying is I, I personally collect artists work because I love the artist. It's not because I love that painting. It's two totally different things. So I could see a painting and say, I love it, but I don't really want it. I don't have to own it. I don't. I mean, I'm not going to buy it because I love that painting. I'm going to buy it because I love that artist, and I want to get a piece of that artist. And I was thinking maybe that would be the same thing for myself, that I wanted to people to buy my work, because they loved the artists in terms of not me personally, but my body of work, and so they want a little piece of it. So I think that's part of the equation, you know, that maybe, maybe artists don't think about so try to be somebody. Try to be somebody that people are interested in, and then maybe those collectors will collect you because of who you are. You know, I think that's a big factor. Sometimes it's just, it's just dumb luck. I mean, I that's a lot of times it's just just, really, just a matter of chance.

Laura Arango Baier: 48:21

Yes, wow. That is an excellent point. Very excellent point. Because I recently did have a friend who who is a collector, and I asked him why, specifically this painting. And he said, I just want a piece of the person like i For me, it's a moment in their life, and it's a piece of them, and I want to remember them with it. So it makes perfect sense with what you just said, that what motivates some collectors may just be loving that person or seeing something in the artist that they want to keep for themselves, and it can be any painting of theirs, right? So that's a very good point to make. Yeah,

Warren Chang: 49:00

well, I think you're mentioning about wanting a piece of them is a lot. I know a lot. I've sold a lot of paintings which are, would be technically, I said I sold, but have sold self portraits. And you wouldn't think self portraits would sell, but I think that they, they do because they, they are an example of that artist's work, they're a good example of that artist's work. And if it's a little bit more, and I think in that case, the self portrait, they are buying the artist in that case, you know, yeah, I think I read that Rembrandt, a lot of collectors had bought Rembrandt's self portraits because they wanted an example of his, you know, if this masterpiece painting, obviously, but you know, that's something to consider. It is. It's

Laura Arango Baier: 49:48

a great thing to consider, and that actually ties in a bit into what we were talking about earlier, with our work being sincere, right? Like that. That moral, ethical. Little sort of reflection of the self and the work, right? If you're a whole person. And actually, that ties back into the Chinese proverb you mentioned, if you're a whole person with this life experience and this way of existing that is honest and direct. And I don't want to say good, but because there's, I don't really believe in that, but in a way that is led by your values, like as a real human that shows in the work. And when others meet you, they'll want that work, not just because it's beautiful, but because you're quote, unquote beautiful as well.

Warren Chang: 50:34

Yeah. I mean, honestly, I can't say I would know why. What motivates another person to you know, be passionate about buying a piece of art. It's sometimes it's something different, entirely different than, you know, like with my paintings, I think a lot of times the reactions have been surprising to me, you know, I didn't, they're, they're maybe seeing something more even political, or, you know, something that you know that suggests some kind of moral or social aspect, which I do am addressing, but maybe not quite in the same way that they're seeing it. And what they're and what there's how they're seeing it is totally valid, you know. So it's always a surprise to see what how people are responding to it, which brings up to one last subject, I think, is subject matter and painting. I think that's pretty important. And like for myself, I kind of fell into this painting field workers, and it was influenced a lot by the writings of John Steinbeck, for instance, who wrote about the downtrodden and the disenfranchised, and I just, I guess I'm trying to make a point is that it seems to me that I'm drawn to, in a way, poverty as a subject matter, and I think that it's because there's something a little more deeper in the human experience that you know, it's a little more, it may be tragic even that is that draws into more, stronger emotions, but it's something that I fell into later. It took me a while to define this path, because originally, when I started as a fine artist, I was like everybody else. I was looking at the people who are doing well and trying, thinking cheeky. I guess maybe that's the way to go. And seemed to be a lot. Lot of artists were painting beautiful women, and paintings of beautiful women seemed to sell well. And so in the beginning, I was painting, trying to paint beautiful women, you know, painting my wife and my as my muse and and if you look at my early work in the early 2000s you'll see that that was a common subject matter of mine. It was sincere that because I was painting my wife and painting things that were familiar to me, whether it's the model of my art studio. But then at some point, I realized that I wasn't any good at it, that, you know, this really wasn't my path. And I and I once, I recognized that I think I found my my way. And it reminds me a little bit of a of Norman Rockwell, because he, he always said that he he couldn't paint a pretty girl, and said anytime he painted a pretty girl, it ended up looking like Huck Finn's sister. So so I kind of relate to that. I just it was just nice to finally just come to that realization that I wasn't going to be the pretty girl painter that I wasn't, that really wasn't my calling, and because it seemed like a lot of the more realistic art galleries, they were really drawn to that subject matter. And, yeah,

Laura Arango Baier: 53:51

that's interesting, because I find that the beauty that you paint despite, you know, the melancholy, suffering right of people who are field workers and the type of lives that they lead, it's still beautiful, because I find that, you know, it's one thing to paint like a pretty lady, but it's another way to with painting, what you paint at least, it's another form of expressing beauty, right? It's almost like the poetry of life on earth as a human in this instant, in this form of living, which I think speaks more to the timelessness of you know the field worker. Right? When I see your paintings, I definitely see LaPage or I see milay, like I see all of these people who have also documented the humble worker, who, in many cases, is the backbone of a lot of society as well. A lot of you know, being able to have food on the table and the grocery stores filled. And I think that's beautiful in itself, not just the Oh, pretty lady you know, yeah.

Warren Chang: 54:53

What a pleasure to speak with you, Laura, that you would be familiar with all this steeped in art history and recognize. Is, you're mentioning all the influences in my own art, you know, I don't know if I don't think I even mentioned it here. I'm sure I did in writing. But yet, you're right. Those were the people I looked to, like, you know, Malay and put LaPage and and so I want to mention that all those artists of the 19th century, they actually, they did work from photography, LaPage in particular. And so recognizing that I realized, if those guys did it, then I don't see any reason why I can't. So, yes, I think it was. And when I honestly, there are artists that I think many who would I suspect. I went to an exhibit of John Singer Sargent's in the Legion of Honor. It was called Sergeant in Spain. And I and he did a lot of genre paintings of gypsies and, you know, women washing clothes and and honestly, he couldn't have done it without working from photography. I know that there's no I don't I've never read that he did, and I know that he poo pooed it, but I would bet the house that he did because these images that I saw him paint the originals, there's no way they could have been done without the aid of photography in terms of just the natural gestures of The figures and just the sort of almost accidental poses that he was painting, you know, the compositions he even must have painted from photography in terms of also the size of the canvases. Anyways, that's my two cents there. Yeah,

Laura Arango Baier: 56:36

no, it's quite possible. I mean, at that point, photography was inescapable, right? I mean, even Bouguereau, in his time, he was using photographs for a majority of his paintings, I want to say, almost all of them. But again, he knew how to manipulate his work so that it would be better than the photograph itself. So I wouldn't be surprised if Sargent did, in fact, maybe reference, right? He would probably say reference because he pooted so much paint photography. But yeah, photography is very important, like you mentioned, in order to capture those particular movements that workers make, like, I think, of like The Gleaners, right, where they're all bent over, I wouldn't, I wouldn't be able to ask someone to hold that pose for hours. Poor thing. Well, the

Warren Chang: 57:24

money definitely worked from life, though, I would say he did. He did, he did sketches, and then he worked. He converted the sketches to Canvas. So that's why his work has a slight naivete to them. But they're, there's, they're just so much emotion and, you know, substance that is just power packed within it, that it supersedes, you know, the the sort of versimilitude that would be apparent in something that was worked from, you know, a live model or from photography,

Laura Arango Baier: 57:55

yeah, yeah. And there's also that use of memory too, that you have to use a lot more with, I guess, with painting from life, or even, you know, when, like you said, how he would go out, do sketches and bring back to the studio, there's a lot more use of memory. And it does, you know, end up happening that it does become a bit more naive, which is fine, because his work is still very beautiful. And La Paz as well. La Paz also had, you know that that really nice, like I mentioned to the diffuse light, the the poses, everything. It's very beautiful. But yeah, by the way, I wanted to ask you, because you're so full of awesome advice, do you have one piece of really useful advice that you would give to someone who wants to become a full time artist,

Warren Chang: 58:48

wow, I would just say it's kind of a cliche. It's just to follow your heart, to paint whatever your vision is, that whatever it is that you love about art, whatever it is the art that you think is beautiful, that you that the reason why you became an artist. Try to create that art, try to stay true to that art. And if you if you're able to achieve that, then most likely others will love it too. Because what you love, others will love as well. Others will respond. But I think that's what's happened for me. I just had this vision in my head, and I was determined to make it a reality, and just, you know, keep I, you know, whatever it was all these years of hard knocks to just try that was my final goal, was to create a painting that I loved. And once I was able to do that. Surprisingly, other people liked it too. So that's the key. So that would be my best advice, very

Laura Arango Baier: 59:49

beautifully said, I completely agree. And again, ties back into the sincerity we were talking about. And then Tolstoy mentioned, you know, about true art being sincere, which I think that quote is going. Stick with me as well. And your advice also, I think it's so important to be true for sure, for sure. And then I wanted to ask you, do you have any exhibitions or any, you know, really cool stuff that's going on that you want to promote?

Warren Chang: 1:00:17

Well, it's something really I am doing a what's called a mentorship with a company called mattress, yeah. Mattress Yeah, M, A, T, R, I, U, S, and they, I'm doing a class. Well, I don't even know if you can call it a class, but it's, it's a meeting, a Zoom meeting. I meet once a month, the fourth Tuesday of every month for two hours. And the foundation of this, this mentorship, is creating narrative pictures, is the art of picture making. That's basically the default class I'm teaching. But you could be doing anything. You could be doing even abstract art, or anything you want, and it's basically using it as a vehicle to share with myself and others. There's only, it's a very small gathering of maybe less than eight students, and we based and it's given me the opportunity to try to teach narrative painting, because normally when I teach, I teach mostly studio courses on like head painting and figure drawing and very, very, very fundamentals. So here is an opportunity for me to give students the step by step process on creating narrative pictures. So that's a class I'm holding once a month through matrius. It's a it's on Tuesdays from, uh, 10 to noon, the fourth Tuesday of every month. And you sign up through the company matrias,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:01:51

and I'll include that link in the in your in the show notes of the episode, by the way.

Warren Chang: 1:01:55

Okay, sounds good, yeah. And the only I don't have any upcoming exhibits. At the moment, I'm just busy painting. I do have one painting that will be in the California Art Club Gold Medal exhibition in at the Hilbert Museum in Orange, California. It opens in two weeks. It's the 100 and 13th annual gold medal exhibition, California Art Club Gold Medal exhibition, and the painting is called Five farm workers, which I'll supply an image to you if you don't already have it. So that's currently. That's all that's on the horizon.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:02:33

That's so exciting. Yeah, and I mean, I think anyone could learn so so much from you. You have such an amazing amount of information that you have learned from you know, your experience and your life and from experimenting. And of course, it's very visible through your work. So I think anyone would be very happy to learn from you. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. And then where can people see more of your work?

Warren Chang: 1:03:00

Well, my website, obviously. And then I'm represented by, if you want to see my work in the flash beside it, I'm represented by the Winfield gallery in Carmel and Hawk Fine Arts in Pacific Grove, as well as the American legacy gallery in Pasadena, California. Awesome.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:03:22

Yeah. And then, of course, your Facebook, but we can include all of those links as well in the show notes.

Warren Chang: 1:03:29

Sure sounds good,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:03:31

awesome. Well, thank you so so much Warren for being a guest on the show.

Warren Chang: 1:03:36

Oh, you're welcome. It's been a pleasure. You've been just a delight. I'm just I really enjoyed. I mean, it's very rare for me to talk to someone as knowledgeable as you and so receptive in such a kindred spirit. You know, it's been, it's just a really rare occasion. So it's been a real pleasure for me to converse with you.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:03:55

Yeah, thank you so much. Yeah, thank you.