Conversation with Wende Miller, Talon Private Capital

Matt sits down with Wende Miller, Managing Director, Talon Private Capital. Since 2012 Wende has overseen asset management and leasing for TPC’s portfolio, including partner properties totaling over 7 million square feet valued at over $2 Billion. She has completed over 4.5 million square feet of new, pre-leased, and renewal leases while overseeing property management, project management and brokerage teams in multiple markets.

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00;00;03;25 - 00;00;28;29

Matt Watson

Welcome to Transcending Workspace, where we talk with leaders of organizations managing the greatest rate of change in human history. I'm Matt Watson, VP of Development with Apex Facility Resources, an integrated services company that delivers and manages workspace change for clients of all sizes. We hope you enjoyed this conversation. I'm super excited today with my guest on the Transcending Workspace podcast.

00;00;29;03 - 00;00;53;18

Matt Watson

They are what I would call an O.G. in the Puget Sound real estate community. Wende Miller, the dynamic managing director at Talon Private Capital, leading the charge in real estate since 2012. With over 27 years’ experience, she's expertly managed TPC's vast portfolio valued at $2 billion and spanning 7 million square feet in four markets, beginning her career as a successful broker.

00;00;53;19 - 00;01;26;26

Matt Watson

Wende seamlessly transitioned into her current ownership role, bringing with her a wealth of industry knowledge and a knack for fostering key connections. Her dedication extends beyond the office, actively participating in industry organizations and serving her communities throughout various board positions. Wende's proudest community achievement: co-developing a sports facility in North Bend with her husband, John. Balancing her thriving career, raising five accomplished children, she exemplifies unwavering dedication and remarkable versatility in both her personal and professional life.

00;01;26;28 - 00;01;28;11

Matt Watson

Welcome, Wende.

00;01;28;14 - 00;01;36;21

Wende Miller

Thank you, Matt. My goodness. That's. That's quite the introduction. Makes me sound way better than I think I am. Thank you.

00;01;36;23 - 00;01;43;24

Matt Watson

We know you're an O.G. 27 years. I mean, my goodness, you must started when you're just a little baby.

00;01;43;27 - 00;01;49;18

Wende Miller

Just straight out of preschool, right? Right into the industry. Mom put me to work.

00;01;49;20 - 00;02;00;25

Matt Watson

Well, tell us a little bit about your journey. What are the kind of the key highlights of your of your career? I mean, it's been a long, very successful run. Significant be a long run with TPC. So.

00;02;00;28 - 00;02;22;05

Wende Miller

Yes, I feel like I've been lucky. I fell into commercial real estate, actually, when I moved here to Washington. And I did it the old days way. We didn't have the Internet like we do now. I answered an ad in the paper with a company called Speaker Partners for a reception test job in property management. So that's how I started.

00;02;22;06 - 00;02;44;20

Wende Miller

I was very fortunate. I had some great mentors starting out. I realized pretty quickly that property management wasn't exactly my forte. I don't like it when people complain, and that's part of property management, right? So I realized very quickly that that really wasn't a good route for me. But I got to meet so many different people as we do in this industry.

00;02;44;23 - 00;03;13;14

Wende Miller

It's kind of the, the exciting part of this industry is why you don't feel like you're moving forward in one area. You get to meet so many different people in this industry. So I, I ended up meeting several brokers and frankly started down my path on that on the brokerage side and started to meet a lot more people in that regard, clients, other brokers, and frankly, I ended up meeting Bill Pollard, got to know him over the many years.

00;03;13;16 - 00;03;33;19

Wende Miller

And when the market turned back in 2008, 2009, it wasn't great. It wasn't great for me personally. It was a tough road, I think, for most people. Ironically, that's when Bill Pollard and Jim Neal decided that they were going to start a private investment company and probably one of the biggest downturns of this market that we've ever seen.

00;03;33;22 - 00;03;57;17

Wende Miller

And I was fortunate enough to get a call from Bill Pollard asking me to come and join Talon Private Capital. And when Bill Pollard calls, you don't just hitch your wagon to somebody like Bill Pollard and Jim Meal, you solder you know, big steel beams to, you know, your wagon to their wagons. So that's what I did. And I've been very fortunate to work alongside those two gentlemen for the last 12 years.

00;03;57;18 - 00;03;59;15

Wende Miller

So, it's been a great ride.

00;03;59;18 - 00;04;09;17

Matt Watson

Well, and I think that, you know, even going back a little further, some of the characteristic that I think has been some of your foundation is I mean, you ran track in college.

00;04;09;20 - 00;04;11;28

Matt Watson

Right? I mean, you did track and cross-country.

00;04;12;00 - 00;04;19;12

Matt Watson

And I've I don't know if anybody's ever seen a cross-country meet. That's like the test of will. I mean, that's, what a nightmare.

00;04;19;12 - 00;04;37;20

Wende Miller

I was thinking about this. I was trying to figure out how I parlay this story actually into some of the things that you and I were going to talk about today. And funny enough, I do have to tell this story because it's just it's part of my personality. I find it that it's you know, it has helped me along the way and all of the different real estate cycles.

00;04;37;20 - 00;04;56;09

Wende Miller

It helps me when I'm feeling down and I'm going, how do I get back up? How do I figure this out? I was running in a race. My mom was a single mom of five children. And so, I mean, she had a lot to do, you know, and she was a working mom. So she's, she's one of my mentors and one of my heroes throughout my life, mainly just because of her drive.

00;04;56;09 - 00;05;15;24

Wende Miller

But I remember running a race. I was a senior in high school. We were very poor. I knew the only way I was getting to college was through a running scholarship. So, you know, drive, determination, all of it. And I remember one race, you know, the pressure was getting to me. It was just it was a lot. And I quit the race.

00;05;15;24 - 00;05;34;05

Wende Miller

I was ahead. I was ahead by a far margin, was going to win yet another race. And I just got in my own head and I quit the race, literally sat down in the middle of the race. They've got walkie talkies everywhere. Wende is down, bring medic, blah, blah, blah. Well, medic didn't come, but my mom did.

00;05;34;11 - 00;05;53;05

Wende Miller

Marching across the course over to me, and I'm sitting down and she leans over and she says, What's the matter? And I said, Well, I just I don't feel good. I thought I was going to throw up. My mom knew me. She knew I wasn't a quitter. And she leans down and she says, next time you think you're going to throw up, I better see chunks.

00;05;53;07 - 00;05;55;06

Matt Watson

[Laughter]

00;05;55;08 - 00;06;16;04

Wende Miller

She later apologized. So, you know, I didn't have a complete slave driver, a horrible mother. But it was one of those learning lessons that she was trying to teach me a, don't quit just because you feel the pressure. You got to move on. And I think as we all move in this particular market and just in commercial real estate in general, we're going to have those hard times.

00;06;16;04 - 00;06;20;09

Wende Miller

The pressure is going to get to us. But the reality is you just can't quit. You got to keep moving on.

00;06;20;11 - 00;06;53;21

Matt Watson

And I think that what you're describing as kind of overcoming obstacles, I think the hard part sometimes today and we've talked about this because your kids and my kids are pretty much the same vintage of kids and they have these unbelievable, tech connections and social media and everything else is out there. And I think pretty quickly identified that in both our lives there was an obstacle to overcome and it seems like there's not that much presenting itself as obstacles to kids as much as, you know, I guess, I don't know, maybe I'm I'm thinking I walked uphill both ways at school.

00;06;53;21 - 00;07;07;24

Matt Watson

I don't know. You know, it just seems like that's a key recipe for success later in life, going through not just trauma, but obstacles and overcoming them as we're kind of coming through our twenties.

00;07;07;26 - 00;07;26;00

Wende Miller

We've all heard it. And I think as we have all raised children, we've tried very hard to shield our children from failure. But, you know, at the end of the day, isn't that how we all learn? And we I mean, people our age, we've heard it, we've experienced it, we've seen it. But failure is not always a bad thing.

00;07;26;00 - 00;07;32;02

Wende Miller

And you do have to let your kids fail. I think we still learn from it. What worked, what didn't work, and how do we move forward?

00;07;32;05 - 00;07;51;03

Matt Watson

Yeah, the other aspect we talked a little bit about is the dynamic that you're a woman in a very male dominated and I was going to say fraternal, but I'd say fraternity, life, environment. And you said, hey, you know, early on in your career and throughout your career, you've embraced that and you've embraced being different and it's actually benefited you.

00;07;51;03 - 00;08;00;16

Matt Watson

How have you leveraged being who you are? Obviously, we know some of the foundation of who you are today came from. But I mean, I think it's less than 5% of women are in commercial real estate.

00;08;00;18 - 00;08;20;03

Wende Miller

Well, I love this topic. I love talking about it with other women in commercial real estate. I have to say some of my best life friends are women in commercial real estate. We're friends outside of the industry, too. We've raised our kids together. We all hang out together out of the industry. So I love women in commercial real estate, but I'm also not afraid.

00;08;20;03 - 00;08;41;13

Wende Miller

And I actually embrace the fact that a lot of times I'm the only woman in the room and that's okay and I like it. And frankly, I think it gives me the differentiator of being the only woman in the room that I become memorable. And so when I talk to a lot of women that I mentor within this industry, the younger women that are coming up is embrace it.

00;08;41;15 - 00;09;08;18

Wende Miller

Don't, don't shy away. Don't, don't feel like you're a victim because there's so few women in commercial real estate. Own it. Walk into a room confident that, you know what, I'm going to be the most memorable person in this room, because I guarantee you, if you speak up, if you be seen, if you say certain things that are educated and on point, they are going to remember you a lot more than they remember the two or three other guys that happened to be in the room.

00;09;08;18 - 00;09;26;09

Wende Miller

That may have said something as poignant as you, but you're the woman in the room, so be memorable. Embrace it. Don't be a victim in this industry. It doesn't matter. I have never felt anywhere. No man in this industry has ever made me feel inferior. I don't know if that's just my personality, but I also wouldn't allow it.

00;09;26;09 - 00;09;49;03

Wende Miller

But I've never felt that ever. Almost 28 years in this industry, no one has ever made me feel like, well, she's just the woman, so don't listen to her, or I couldn't do enough or I couldn't be enough, or I couldn't succeed. Like never, never in my career. In fact, I would say most of my mentors in this business have been men, and every single one of them have wanted to see me grow and succeed.

00;09;49;03 - 00;09;54;02

Wende Miller

I don't see being a woman in this industry is a detriment. I find it to be a huge positive.

00;09;54;04 - 00;10;18;11

Matt Watson

Well, I mean, I think the other thing that you mentioned to me in our chat before this podcast was in the commercial real estate. Perhaps unlike a lot of careers, you get to learn how to grind and that's a universal trait. More women know how to grind in terms of just getting it done and overcoming all those obstacles along the way perhaps than men in a lot of cases.

00;10;18;13 - 00;10;37;12

Matt Watson

And so that might be, also an advantage is that, you know, obviously you ran cross country, which is, like I say, it's a grueling throw up sport. I swam for like one year in high school and that was it, you know, because that's just crazy workouts. You had to learn how to grind and overcome and work when you're tired and basically shake it off and get it done.

00;10;37;17 - 00;10;57;18

Wende Miller

Yeah, I always say that you can't teach talent, but you can teach work ethic. I think that in anything that you do, if you want to do it well, you have to be driven, you have to have that mindset and that work ethic and if you don't have it, surround yourself with people that do have that work ethic that are going to push you, that are going to bring you along.

00;10;57;20 - 00;11;21;11

Wende Miller

Commercial real estate. Since we're on that, that topic really is it is a grind. It's not easy in any facet of commercial real estate, not just what I do, but in all of it. You've got to work, you've got to get up every day and be ready to go and make sure that you're going to be making the phone calls and you're following up and you're in front of people constantly and you're delivering the things that you say that you're going to deliver.

00;11;21;11 - 00;11;38;10

Wende Miller

You have to stay on it. It's a grind. And as for women doing it better than men, I don't know. I like to think, I'm sure there's some psychologists out there that have certain studies. I've heard of them. I don't really believe in them all the time. But, you know, women and men work differently. Women have, I think, a tendency to be able to multitask a little bit better than men.

00;11;38;11 - 00;11;42;14

Wende Miller

Men tend to have their boxes and work in those boxes and move to the next one.

00;11;42;17 - 00;12;07;27

Matt Watson

Yeah, kind of changing gears, working for the two men. I mean, Bill Pollard's another O.G. as well as Jim. I don't know Jim as well as I know Bill. Bill is just this genius in the industry and obviously right place, right time doing the right thing more than once in this life. I tell you, Talon is it set up seems to be one of the best diversified commercial real estate orgs with locations in Seattle, Portland, Dallas, Austin, Seattle.

00;12;07;27 - 00;12;27;09

Matt Watson

Portland might be suffering a little bit, but Dallas and Austin are booming. I think real estate occupancies in terms of office occupancy is up. How is Talon and you being key component of this managed through the current market conditions and what they are? Tell us what's going on and kind of, where you're seeing the challenges and the opportunities.

00;12;27;12 - 00;12;48;25

Wende Miller

We do have a diversification of location. We also have a diversification of asset class classes and types. So that not only helps us as a company, weather some of these storms, but, you know, it also is a good foundation for our investors to we're not sticking all of our eggs in one basket. I think it's a challenging market out there right now.

00;12;48;26 - 00;13;08;28

Wende Miller

I think we're all challenged. I mean, you know, sure, Seattle and Portland might be faring a little worse than Dallas Office market, but they've got their own challenges, too. So it's a matter of understanding your markets and your asset and how you move forward with all of them. If you are a 50,000 square foot or more tenant in this, in any one of these markets, you're feeling really good.

00;13;09;01 - 00;13;29;11

Wende Miller

You are king of the castle. But for owners, it's a long slog. So back to the grind and the credit. This is not for faint of heart. We've got to work every day and every day there might be a new challenge, but there's also a new opportunity. And unfortunately, in markets like this, I think the opportunities come because others failed.

00;13;29;15 - 00;13;54;29

Wende Miller

And so you mentioned Bill Pollard and Jim Neal. They've been around for a very long time. They're well versed in these cycles. They're well versed in seeing good and bad investments and deals. So we have been, you know, cautious over the last several years. And I think it's going to pay off for us, made sure that our chicks in the nest are on firm foundations and we're doing all the right things for our assets.

00;13;54;29 - 00;14;07;00

Wende Miller

And so now we're able to look at some of these failing or potential failing propositions out in the marketplace to either acquire at a new basis, which is great.

00;14;07;00 - 00;14;10;09

Matt Watson

Sounds like the vultures are circling, Wende.

00;14;10;11 - 00;14;36;15

Wende Miller

You know or I mean, you know, the other thing is finding opportunities, too. It's not just an acquisition, you know? Talon was the largest receiver in the history of Washington, so it's coming in and finding opportunities to help lenders that may be in trouble, that may have a troubled asset. It's finding those people offering our services to be operators and potentially owners in the future because we've done it, we did it well and we're ready to do it again.

00;14;36;17 - 00;14;57;09

Matt Watson

It's crazy how it just kicked off with Bill and Jim in ‘08 or ‘09 and everybody was like questioning, Wow, what's he doing? You know, And it's it's pretty cool to see where it's gone, that's for sure. Okay. So what lessons are we learning in the current market challenges, kinda, you said, hey, you got to kind of take the lessons and put them into motion and learn from those things.

00;14;57;09 - 00;14;58;08

Matt Watson

What are we learning?

00;14;58;11 - 00;15;16;13

Wende Miller

Yeah, I think we've at least our team here at Talon, we all have fairly diverse backgrounds in commercial real estate, so we've all dabbled in different things, which has been great. I think the other thing is, is we're, you know why we have some newer folks, we've got some seasoned people here too. So this is personally my fourth cycle that I've been in.

00;15;16;13 - 00;15;35;10

Wende Miller

And, you know, I think you've learned a little lesson from each particular cycle. And what I love to hear from everybody right now is: “This one is so different. This one's different, though.” And I'm like every single one of them was different! I mean, we never saw what was coming for each one of the different cycles and the downturns of the market.

00;15;35;10 - 00;15;54;00

Wende Miller

We had to figure out how to manage our way out of them, though. What do we need to do different? How do we need to be agile, be versatile, switch around how we're looking at particular deals, work with our lenders, work with brokers. It's a matter of what's working, what's not, and running with some of those items until they're not working anymore.

00;15;54;00 - 00;16;13;11

Wende Miller

And then you got to switch gears again, looking to see what will work. So I think we continue to just grind work. I think for us, it's not just about, you know, when you're looking at the metrics out in the market and none of them look fantastic for us right now, it's also perception. Do we have a financial problem, a numbers issue?

00;16;13;11 - 00;16;32;20

Wende Miller

Yes, we've got them in tenant improvements. We've got them in interest rates. We have them in commissions, in concessions. I mean, we've got number problems that don't seem to make sense in this market right now. But we also have a perception problem. You mentioned right at the beginning about where we have our portfolio, Seattle and Portland, you know, they're not doing very well.

00;16;32;20 - 00;16;49;27

Wende Miller

Yeah, well, if you talk to a lot of people in the market, that's exactly what they're talking about. Seattle, Portland. They're bad or horrible. They're this. It's crime, it’s... Well, what are we doing about it? Some of it is things that are outside of our control, which is okay. Municipalities have to step up and actually do their jobs.

00;16;50;00 - 00;17;09;06

Wende Miller

But the other part of it is what are we as an industry doing to help with the perception? What are we doing to help go no, I'm going to present my building. I'm going to present me as an owner. I'm going to present me as a manager and an operator of an asset to the outside world, to tenants.

00;17;09;09 - 00;17;24;15

Wende Miller

I'm changing the perception of how you guys should do business in my asset, and these are the reasons why I think you should be here. This is a reason why I think you should trust us to have your employees come back to work in my asset because I'm going to do all of these things and we're going to make it wonderful.

00;17;24;16 - 00;17;29;24

Wende Miller

I think there's some perception changes that need to happen within all of these markets as well.

00;17;29;26 - 00;17;52;29

Matt Watson

Yeah, and I think that we talked a little bit about some things outside of your control which you know technologies enabled during the COVID pandemic, this whole work from home and hybrid mentality, which, you know, expedited, it was on its way there, but we were probably not going to see what we see today for another ten years is the projection in my workspace furnishing and interiors industry was saying.

00;17;52;29 - 00;18;12;21

Matt Watson

And it just pushed everything forward and in such a hyper way that it's kind of a shocking situation, I think. But you made some really good points and we both have kids in the workforce today that kind of even were kids in the pandemic era, went to school remotely, came out, started working remotely, semi remotely or a couple of days a week.

00;18;12;21 - 00;18;34;01

Matt Watson

I kind of sense that people are starting to push their employees not just with amenities and trying to attract them to a better workspaces, blah, blah, blah. You know, I'm getting, hey, Amazon's going to a four day and we're seeing a lot more four and five day mandate. I know that's music to your ears, but you had some thoughts about hybrid work environment and what you kind of share with your kids.

00;18;34;01 - 00;18;35;04

Matt Watson

Share that with us.

00;18;35;07 - 00;19;13;11

Wende Miller

Yeah. So, I mean, if you'll indulge me to get on my soapbox for a minute, mainly just because it makes me taller, Matt. This is another big conversation. One I love talking about because I do have, we have five kids that are going into the workforce, are in the workforce right now. And I just I read an article this morning about a Gen Z’ers. So that's 26 and under and how they feel in this big survey that they feel like they are being failed in the work environment because they are not being trained appropriately, they're not being given the tools to succeed in their whatever roles that they happen to be at.

00;19;13;11 - 00;19;43;02

Wende Miller

Now my first thought on that and chuckling because again, I have children this age is: you haven't been in the workforce long enough to decide that you haven't been trained enough to further your career because you're still young and you should be learning. And that's just the instant gratification of the world we live in right now. But I think where we are failing them is the leaders of companies are failing these young children, young workers, mainly because those leaders are coming back to work.

00;19;43;03 - 00;20;02;29

Wende Miller

They've decided that I like to work from home and I don't want to come in and fight traffic and do these things. They feel that they are more productive at home. Well, that might be the case because you've done this for 20 years, but your next generation of workers need you. They need to see you. They need to see how you succeed.

00;20;02;29 - 00;20;30;25

Wende Miller

They need to see how you fail. They need to listen to you, talk to customers, coworkers, new people. They need to hear and see and feel and experience all of these things because that's how they're going to learn. They don't learn from a Zoom call or a team's call where you're on it for 20 minutes and you bark some orders at them, and then you guys all go off screen and they're sitting there in their apartment trying to figure out what to do.

00;20;30;29 - 00;20;33;19

Wende Miller

Now, wonder why they feel like. And by the way.

00;20;33;21 - 00;20;35;00

Matt Watson

They feel isolated.

00;20;35;00 - 00;20;56;23

Wende Miller

Yeah, as leaders of the company, is that truly how you think people are going to learn? I mean, what kind of skill sets are you teaching them? This is the next generation of the people that you think are going to take over your company. What's your company going to look like when the people that you're teaching are literally learning over 20 minute little increments and have no real world experience?

00;20;56;23 - 00;21;26;27

Wende Miller

And so translating that into commercial real estate, this has always been and I truly believe it always will be a relationship business. It's also a tangible business. We're not selling ideas to people. We sell tangible assets, a space, furniture improvements, all of these kind of things. So how do you learn about those things if you're sitting in your apartment or your house or something like that, you have to touch them, deal them, tour them.

00;21;27;00 - 00;21;33;24

Wende Miller

You have to go and meet with your clients. They have to see you face to face. They've got to see your mannerisms because they have to learn to trust you.

00;21;33;24 - 00;21;56;01

Matt Watson

I couldn't agree more. I think that when I saw this big push into amenity driven workspaces, increasing social space and meeting space and all that have the biggest holes that I don't see how hybrid work or work remote will still are both onboarding and training and development of young workforce. You're hitting a nail on the head there and I think that you're right.

00;21;56;01 - 00;22;13;29

Matt Watson

I think that's perhaps if I could anchor on one thing, the way I learned, the way that others will need is by doing it, by doing side by side people who have done it. And I think that's a key point. And I think that people are recognizing that a couple of years into this and I think it'll just kind of increase.

00;22;14;02 - 00;22;21;08

Matt Watson

I don't think we'll ever see the occupancies that we saw in the heyday. I still think there's going to be some holdouts to this thing.

00;22;21;10 - 00;22;44;29

Wende Miller

I think there'll be a weirdness. But you know what? And then if I can just touch on that really quick, you know where we are as a society, we are people that create, we innovate. We've got, you know, these minds that do all sorts of wonderful things, and they create certain things when somebody creates something new, they've got to pull people together in order to make it better, in order to go sell it, in order to implement it, in order to do these things.

00;22;44;29 - 00;23;11;13

Wende Miller

So unfortunately, I think over the last several years when we've all been separated, we also haven't had that collaboration of ideas and invention and all of those kind of things. So I believe that when we all start to get together a little bit more, those ideas and structures and things like that will actually grow and we will start to see more and more people that occupy space, whether we occupy every single building to 98% occupancy, I don't know.

00;23;11;13 - 00;23;13;23

Wende Miller

But I think we'll continue to watch things grow.

00;23;13;26 - 00;23;29;27

Matt Watson

Yeah, I agree with you. So as we kind of wind down here a little bit, I was going to ask you in our local or regional Puget Sound area, what do you see in the Seattle, Bellevue market and how it sorts out in the next 12 to 18 months? Or is it going to take another year, year and a half?

00;23;29;27 - 00;23;46;22

Matt Watson

I know there are a lot of buildings that are kind of underwater with their lenders and interest rates aren't helping and valuations aren't helping. Where do you see things? How do you see things in Seattle and Bellevue? I know Bellevue seems a little healthier than Seattle, even though occupancy is probably close to the same. So we're looking at record.

00;23;46;22 - 00;23;50;12

Matt Watson

I mean, we're close to 30% of vacancy. And you and I have never seen that in our career.

00;23;50;12 - 00;24;06;01

Wende Miller

No. I mean, it's it definitely is tough out there. And, you know, I'm not a big slogan person. I keep hearing, “Stay alive until ‘25.” Yeah. You know what? It's great. I kind of look at that as those are for people that don't really want to work in ‘24. So they've just written it off and it's only February.

00;24;06;01 - 00;24;21;13

Wende Miller

And so they're going to just write it off and let other people do the work and hopefully they'll ride those coattails in ‘25. I think the next 12 to 18 months are going to be work. I know that's kind of a four letter word to most people these days, but that's what needs to happen. We got to get back to work.

00;24;21;13 - 00;24;43;17

Wende Miller

And for people in our industry, it's going to take a lot of different thought processes, a lot of ingenuity, a lot of conversations. This is where the relationships come down. You better have really good relationships with your lenders, with your brokers, with your contractors, because all of us are going to have to really fight through all of this to get through it.

00;24;43;23 - 00;24;46;03

Wende Miller

And we will. But it's going to be a lot of work.

00;24;46;10 - 00;25;10;08

Matt Watson

Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I also agree with you on relationships and connections because I think any times of uncertainty, I mean, those are the things that get tested and then you find out who you really are, great relationships with and who you're not. I think this is all a healthy filter to put our industry and our businesses through like Grandpa always used to say, or Grandma used to say, What doesn't kill you makes you stronger.

00;25;10;11 - 00;25;17;17

Wende Miller

And you know what? I go by like the guy from Jerry Maguire. That's, you know, relationships are everything.

00;25;17;19 - 00;25;33;03

Matt Watson

Yes, I love that. Well, I. I can't tell you how much I appreciate you coming on. I've been eyeing, I've been, You're in my, you are on my target list to get on this podcast because it's been you know, you and I haven't really spent a lot of time together in the last few years, but we've known each other for over 20.

00;25;33;05 - 00;25;43;03

Matt Watson

I know I really appreciate you spending the time and sharing your thoughts and hoping that those who have had the chance to listen to this podcast really appreciate the things that you share today. Thanks again.

00;25;43;03 - 00;25;48;03

Wende Miller

Thank you so much for having me on. Any time, I'd love to talk about it.

00;25;48;05 - 00;25;59;14

Matt Watson

Thank you for tuning into Transcending Workspace. If you'd like to hear more, please subscribe to our channel. Visit Apex Facility dot com for more information about how we can help you build an adaptive workspace.