Transcending Workspace: A Conversation with Stuart Williams

A Principal with Lee & Associates, Stuart brings over 35 years of commercial real estate expertise to his clients. Stuart was a Managing Director and led the Capital Markets team at JLL for numerous years, during which time he provided investment sales services to institutional, corporate, and private investors. He has sold over $6 B of properties and leased over 7M SF. Stuart consistently ranks among the top sales and leasing brokers in the greater Puget Sound area including being SIOR broker of the year 5 times and a CoStar power broker 12 times. Before JLL, he was a co-founder and Principal with Pacific Real Estate Partners, and prior to that he was a Principal at the Norman Company and managed all ownership leasing activity.

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Transcript

00:00:05:21 - 00:00:08:00
Matt
Today's guest is Stuart Williams. Stuart is currently a principal with Lee &  Associates. With over 35 years of commercial real estate experience, he was formerly a managing director and led the Capital Markets Marketing Markets team at JLL for numerous years, during which he provided investment sales services and to institutional, corporate and private commercial real estate investors. He has sold over 6 billion in properties and leased over 7 million square feet.
Stuart consistently ranks among the top sales and leasing brokers in the greater Puget Sound area, including SRO Broker of the Year five times and Costar Broker 12 times before JLL. He was a co-founder and principal with the Pacific Real Estate Partners, and prior to that he was a principal with at the Norman Company and managed all ownership leasing activity.
Now, with full disclosure, Stuart and I went to high school together and we're both Garfield High School alumni, the Go Bulldogs. Welcome, Stewart.

00:01:06:00 - 00:01:11:20
Stuart
Thanks for having me Matt. And I was hoping to get to say Go, go Bulldogs myself, but you beat me to the punch.

00:01:13:11 - 00:01:15:12
Matt
Well, yeah. You know. It's hard to be so famous, and, you know, you're like. I tell people, I've got a commercial real estate guy coming on my podcast. 
He's like a four star general in our market, and we're really excited to talk to you. I know you and I talked quite a bit, or sometimes I guess not so 
much anymore, but sometimes in terms of the stat state of the market and, you know, things around commercial real estate and workspace interiors, which 
obviously that's what we do. And but you've been really going at it for a long term and so give us, you know, basically good start where, you know, we've 
both been through multiple downturns. Right. And this particular commercial real estate is really being affected by this downturn. Start off talking about 
maybe the four classes of real estate and let us know about each if you could and let us know a little bit about the how the office markets kind of have 
been most greatly impacted by this downturn.

00:02:18:15 - 00:02:41:12
Stuart
Thanks, Matt. You know, before kind of diving into your question, you kind of alluded to it. You know, we go through these cycles every 7 to 10 years. 
And, you know, at the bottom of the market, there's always this view that the sky is falling and nothing's ever going to come back. 
So while I've been I probably cite some numbers that might depress a few of your viewers.

00:02:41:12 - 00:03:15:09
Stuart
The reality is you need the markets to reset and then they come back. There will be losers in this reset, but that presents the opportunities going forward. 
And that's true for all four classes. And, you know, in the four classes, which we sometimes call the four food groups, it's industrial, multifamily, 
retail and office. And, you know, you kind of go back three years ago during the pandemic and people were really concerned about retail and they're
still are concerned. But interestingly, retail's coming back better. Yes. If you're a restaurant in downtown, fill in the blank. Including Seattle, 
probably a little tougher time. Yeah. In other areas, you know, retail while still having problems. I mean, malls are still something people are figuring 
out how many big regional malls are going through the country. You know, industrial and multifamily are doing well.

00:03:40:01 - 00:04:01:08
Stuart
Industrial has been the darling. Industrial generally isn't the Darling, but has been the Darling for many, many years. You know, a lot of it is, you know, 
last mile distribution. A lot of it is just in time inventory. But, you know, if you look at the numbers, it's really quite strong on the industrial front. 
You know, multifamily went through a little bit of changes.

00:04:01:08 - 00:04:18:08
Stuart
You know, first year of COVID, it seemed everyone was moving out of the big cities. Well, they've moved back and well, I think we're overbuilding in some 
markets. You know, the reality is, as long as we have population growth and high interest rates, that's good for the multifamily market.

00:04:27:15 - 00:04:58:01
Stuart
Yeah. And you know, and the fourth, you know, office, which is really the biggest of the four areas and it's the one probably where there's the most 
uncertainty. You know, we've talked about how many people are coming back to work. How much space do firms need going forward? You know, a lot of 
those questions have been answered. And, you know, we all like this depending on which side of the equation you're on, are going to come up with answers 
that support your viewpoint.

00:04:58:17 - 00:05:21:16
Matt
But there's definitely some problems in the office market. As you said, we're going to focus more on office. You know, our practice really focuses on the 
sale of office and land. And, you know, we see a lot of signs of distress. Again, we're going to hit bottom and we'll come back. What looked different than 
before? Of course it will.

00:05:22:02 - 00:05:57:12
Stuart
You know, as you mentioned, your interest rates are one of them. You know, as we look at it, it's a bit of a perfect storm going on now. You got. And we're 
just focusing on office. You got lots of leases coming. Do you have a lot of sublease space? You have loan expirations at record numbers to give you kind of 
an indication there's roughly $280 billion of loans coming due this year and about 30% or 80 billion of that is office product.

00:05:58:05 - 00:06:24:03
Stuart
You have a lot of new product coming on the market and we'll kind of delve into that later when we talk about the Seattle and East Side market. And because 
of the increase in interest rates and lots of other fact values are down, not good. Again, in a weird way, you kind of want to get through this fast and then 
we get to the other side on the marketplace.

00:06:24:03 - 00:07:01:10
Matt
Yeah, I know. I'm you know, here I am in the Workspace Interiors business and it's 100% reliant on occupancy and offices, which in our market is abysmal, not 
necessarily in other markets like Texas and other markets that I do work in and and have a lot of activity level still. It's you know, I think we're fairly 
typical for a coastal market in the sense that, you know, people don't come in on Mondays and Fridays and those that do primarily occupied Tuesday, Wednesday,
Thursday and here we're still under 40% or around 40% on those highest occupancy days.

00:07:02:04 - 00:07:34:08
Stuart
So part of my skepticism on the bounce back is that it's just the equation has been changed where before, like we talked a little, you know, in the past we've
 talked about the 808 or nine down term, but that bounced back pretty fully to utilization. So the uncertainty, as you said, around utilization and what am I 
going to do with my we have many clients that are sitting on the fence not knowing what to do.

00:07:34:11 - 00:08:03:21
Matt
We're working with them trying to have that conversation. And it's extremely complicated because there are cultural issues, there are I had a great 
conversation with a client just on Tuesday and just a couple of days ago, and the things I wasn't even considering were the factors on transit. And she was 
saying her bus route. She runs a three and a half floor office for an engineering firm downtown Seattle, and she says, My bus doesn't run down here anymore, 
so I have to take a different bus.

00:08:03:21 - 00:08:26:08
Matt
And it dropped me off in a very dangerous part of town. So now I've been driving, but that's not sustainable. So the variables here, I think unlike before, 
are very complicated. And obviously you were getting to kind of the subject of following values and office properties. And you tell us tell us a little bit about how that works.

00:08:26:08 - 00:08:35:08
Stuart
I mean, it has an interest rate implication and and that pressure that these owners are now going to be under.

00:08:35:08 - 00:09:19:10
Stuart
Well, you're 100% right. And, you know, some numbers to throw out. You know, if you look at U.S. office receipts, which, you know, values down 35%. 
Wow. If you kind of kind of go, well, if vacancy was considered to be 5% and now you're going to say it's ten or maybe 15% and you're using higher exit cap rates 
and you're using higher numbers for interest rates and you're using higher numbers for tenant improvement values, you're down somewhere in that 35% range, though, is very interesting.

00:09:21:03 - 00:09:58:16
Stuart
Cbus is big on a real estate, bought a building in Los Angeles in 2010 for roughly $210 million. Is the Union Bank building kind of your classic now today older class building? 
They put about 20 million into it. So their basis is 230 million back in 2019, they had it under contract at 280 million didn't sell. They had it under contract again in 2021 before 
interest rates went up to 250 million didn't sell.

00:09:59:16 - 00:10:24:06
Stuart
In October, they went back under contract at 155 million. The buyer had it under contract during due diligence. As interest rates continue to go up and down, probably some other issues 
with the building did eventually close, but they closed that $105 million.

00:10:25:07 - 00:10:31:11
Matt
I'm assuming that's under their debt load on that building under what they.

00:10:31:20 - 00:10:51:23
Stuart
Yeah, probably. And you know, and there are lots of examples of where big institutions are either selling at really low numbers, handing the keys back to their lender or talking to 
the lender about restructuring the debt.

00:10:52:06 - 00:10:58:16
Matt
How flexible you think the lenders are going to be this time around, because I know they are pretty flexible. Know what, oh eight or nine, right? I mean, they were kicking the can pretty well.

00:10:58:17 - 00:11:19:21
Matt
I mean, if you talk to people, they say the banking system is stronger than it was in oh eight and oh nine. Well, we'll see how much stronger it is, especially when we talk about what happened 
with Silicon Valley Bank and Signature Bank recently. But be sort of hard discussions with lenders. A lot of them really want to kick the can down.

00:11:20:03 - 00:11:42:15
Stuart
So if you have a loan, due August of 2023, I'll probably give you a one year extension if you're willing to play ball and play ball at a higher interest rate, because that's the other big factor. 
A lot of people with these loans, five year loans for the interest rates, probably three, maybe 4%, and today it's 6%. Right.

00:11:42:15 - 00:12:07:09
Stuart
And when you factor in that their debt operating income is down from what we were at was, you know, you're looking at and I'll give you an example, you had a $20 million property and you got a 
60% loan to value. At 12 million. Your loan comes do your property is only worth 16 million and you're only able to get a 50% loan to value.

00:12:08:01 - 00:12:28:23
Stuart
So that's 8 million. Well, you had a $12 million loan. Well, now you have to come up with another $4 million of equity. Right. You know, those are the things that people are going to be facing going
 forward now, right. In the one year kick the can down, they probably keep the same loan, but at a higher interest rate.

00:12:29:03 - 00:12:43:17
Matt
So they don't have to come up with more equity today. But you can only do it so long. And then it gets to the issue you raise when and if the office market going to come back.

00:12:43:17 - 00:13:18:15
Stuart
Yeah, I was I was reading between our pre prep call for this podcast and the today I read another article that talks about that there are several hundred regional banks overexposed to commercial real 
estate loans in urban areas that could potentially fail as a result of what you're exactly what you're talking about, which is basically people walking away from more or less Class B because there's a 
flight to quality and they're all saying, hey, the the newer buildings, the class buildings will be fine.

00:13:19:02 - 00:13:52:16
Matt
But it's those older A's and B's that will suffer. And many of them are not convertible to residential and or other uses. My big idea is to put university in those buildings or city colleges in those buildings, 
because it would make sense from a floor plan layout and a utilization standpoint. But I guess what I'm seeing is what I'm concerned about and reading more about is that potential bank failure scenario.

00:13:52:16 - 00:13:57:18
Matt
You know, given the exposure to commercial real estate, what are you hearing in the market?

00:13:58:23 - 00:14:24:07
Stuart
Well, there is some concern. I mean, you know, Silicon Valley banks loans sold it $0.77 on the dollar. You know, Signature got bought, I believe, by First Citizen Bank. And they didn't take on their real estate exposure. 
And, you know, I've listened and read a couple of articles where people talk about it's going to sell it below the Silicon Valley banks 77% number.

00:14:24:08 - 00:14:45:11
Stuart
Now, with that said, we go through this. That's what happened. And no way to know now. And there are going to be losers. The banks will lose. Will they go under? I don't know enough. I'm not a banking expert. 
And in defense of the banks, they may have a big exposure in commercial real estate, but if it's in multifamily and industrial, they're fine.

00:14:45:21 - 00:15:08:13
Stuart
And if they're newer off and right, it's fine if they're a lot in Class B and C office buildings, maybe a little bit more trouble that they're going to face. But we come through it, they'll be losers, it'll come 
through and then you'll back to the conversions. You know, these buildings with new owners, new owners or new ideas.

00:15:08:13 - 00:15:43:18
Matt
Yours is an interesting one. We've talked about conversion to multifamily or hotel or mixed use, and there will be some of that. I mean, some buildings, candidly, you know, are big high rises. They probably get knocked 
down. Right. And while they're probably worth more as land, I mean, some of them I mean, good example, we've sold several buildings out in South Lake Union when the markets were strong, which had 61 at a 60,000 foot
buildings, but you could build a 200,000 foot building there.

00:15:43:18 - 00:16:02:18
Stuart
So, you know, a lot of it's going to be there will be new things built, will be new office maybe. I mean, people talk about office being bad, but there's been a lot of strength. I mean, the life science market has been 
strong, the data center markets have been strong. You know, and I do think the tech companies will come back.

00:16:02:18 - 00:16:24:14
Stuart
And I also think they will want their employees to be back at work is that means they're back five days a week, probably not. It'll be very interesting. See what happens with Amazon. Amy. They've you know, while they've 
had employees protest, they've stuck to their guns and said, we want you back May one. That will be really good for the Seattle market.

00:16:24:14 - 00:16:34:22
Stuart
I mean, can you imagine South Lake Union today and what it be like in a month or two? I mean, a lot of restaurants are really looking forward to seeing those folks coming back.

00:16:34:24 - 00:16:55:13
Matt
What what's left of those restaurants like? I was I was in town on Tuesday, as you know, and I was just really being trying to be as observant as possible. And it still is not happening downtown. 
We all on the streets during lunch, you know, it was kind of a busy sidewalk and it's still fairly vacant, you know, in terms of people.

00:16:56:01 - 00:17:14:20
Stuart
But I do sense that and I hope that things are going to change. And, you know, you're one of the most rational, pragmatic people I know, but you sound like the opposite of optimists in this conversation. 
So I appreciate you doing that because both of us can benefit from your optimism for sure.

00:17:16:10 - 00:17:36:20
Matt
Well, I mean, I I'm a big believer that, you know, we've gone through this stuff. There's always new challenges every time. I mean, it's always something new why we go into a recession and then we come through
them will there be changes? Will Of course there will be. But again, and just focusing on Seattle, yes, we have some problems.

00:17:36:20 - 00:18:07:05
Matt
Our vacancy rate in Seattle is around 19%. And suddenly space and, you know, and the overall market 17%. And we're building a lot of new product, you know, especially on the east side. On the other hand, the east
side vacancy is 8%. So adding new product won't be good, but it'll weather it. And what will make our markets do well will be the growth of tech.

00:18:07:05 - 00:18:21:22
Matt
I mean, that's going to lead to grow, not doctor pick on accountants, lawyers, real estate folks, interior designers, architect. But we're not the ones that are going to make or break the office market. It's big 
growth companies that make it.

00:18:23:00 - 00:18:50:19
Stuart
I couldn't agree with you more. And I also appreciate the fact that you know, both Starbucks in downtown Seattle and Amazon, although Amazon is more centrally located in Suffolk, Union and Seattle are in mandating comebacks. 
Interestingly enough, I think your Bellevue market is going to see something that, no, none of us could have anticipated with the Amazon trying to pursue almost like another HQ to oh, they're building what, four and a half, 
5 million feet just recently.

00:18:50:19 - 00:19:09:15
Stuart
And those buildings are still in court. Many of them have been completed in or are not going to be in the short term. But but Microsoft's getting ready to give up, what, 1.5 million feet in downtown Bellevue. Right. And on a 
total market size of, what, 40 million feet, 30 minutes. How big is Bellevue?

00:19:09:15 - 00:19:32:23
Matt
Yeah, the overall market is, you know, depends how you count it, because everyone does it a little differently. My partner, Alex Murray, used to run research. JLL said. I used to spend about a quarter of my time explaining to 
people why everyone's statistics were slightly different and but it's somewhere in that range. And you know, the other hand, some of Microsoft's doing is what people thought they would do.

00:19:32:24 - 00:19:58:02
Matt
They are building on their campus. I mean, they signaled they were going to do that. Now, I do think they're not going to take as much and use as much office space as they thought. 3 to 5 years ago. But, you know, a lot of it,
 we expect it I'm not sure we expected downtown Bellevue that much, but most people probably were betting that I-90, they're going to give up that space in downtown Bellevue.

00:19:58:02 - 00:20:05:21
Matt
And yes, it's going to have an effect on the east side market. The real question is who's going to grow to sort of absorb all that space?

00:20:06:05 - 00:20:26:03
Stuart
That's that's a hard one, because we've had these saviors where Amazon, Battlefield, Expedia, when they moved to Seattle. Right. And there would have been a big hit to downtown Bellevue. Then. But it was like a complete 
turnaround before it even happened before the moves took place. So right now we're hoping with fingers crossed that there's going to be a backfill some sort of.

00:20:26:05 - 00:20:40:06
Stuart
But I bet, you know, Bellevue could easily get into the high teens in terms of vacancy, if not higher, if things don't kind of heat up a little bit with regard to growth in tech companies and that sort of thing.

00:20:41:16 - 00:20:42:19
Matt
And then the other thing, you know.

00:20:42:19 - 00:21:15:09
Stuart
You and I were talking about and I know you're you're not an expert on taxation and whatnot, but there's you know, I read about the potential impending doom, which is building values in urban centers, account for over 50% 
of the city tax revenue and with extraordinary dropping values in commercial office properties. You said yourself or over 30%. That means that those tax revenues are coming down.

00:21:15:09 - 00:21:50:13
Stuart
And so then it becomes an issue of where do the revenues come from? Because the city has services and they want to transit services, they have safety and health and all the other things that the city provides, especially in
Seattle, which we've gone through some rough times lately coming out of COVID, I think there's a a severe concern to be had by all around how this is going to get managed going forward because it's either cut services or go 
after taxing residential and hospitality, which, you know, if it's residential, people move.

00:21:51:21 - 00:22:32:24
Stuart
If it's hospitality. I think that that'd be a hard nut to crack with that group. So I, I really wonder I read another article on this just yesterday and it's just extraordinary how fast all of this has happened. Like you said, 
some of this will bounce back. But with the uncertainty around occupancy and utilization of offices going forward, which obviously I'm an advocate of, and I believe that the biggest thing that's going to push people back to 
the offices is the training and development of our young folks in the office because they have no mentors and that old people like you and I out of our comfy homes with our own offices and into the

00:22:32:24 - 00:22:39:24
Stuart
office to work with the young people who are learning the business. And I think that's at the core getting people back in the workspace.

00:22:41:01 - 00:23:02:23
Matt
Yeah, you know, and on the tax. So, you know, I'll say it's above my pay grade. But yeah, cities are going to have some big challenges if values come down and you're right, there aren't too many levers that can work with to 
do it. I mean, we saw the Seattle City Council is exploring, you know, capital gains in the city.

00:23:03:12 - 00:23:14:23
Matt
You know, and I'm not saying it's the right or wrong answer, but the other have to consider a lot of things. So it will be interesting to see how much values go down and what that effect is going forward.

00:23:15:06 - 00:23:22:24
Stuart
Do you think we're going to see more decline before we see a bounce back? Have we hit bottom? No.

00:23:23:07 - 00:23:47:10
Matt
I do think we're close. And part of the reason I do think we're getting close is, you know, the interest rate increases are coming to an end. Yeah. And we you know, from what we all read, the Fed is maybe a quarter point, 
you know, and it can make a huge effect if they start lowering interest rates. And are we near a recession?

00:23:47:22 - 00:23:59:12
Matt
You know, the banks are a concern. I mean, even what's fascinating to me, the stock market had the best quarter, first quarter of 2023 than it's had in several years.

00:23:59:12 - 00:24:02:06
Stuart
So that's that's Las Vegas, you know.

00:24:03:12 - 00:24:31:00
Matt
So I like to think we're kind of getting there, but we do need some pain. You know, you're going to see more buildings go back to lenders. You're going to see buildings sell at losses. I've always thought people in 
commercial real estate have a mentality that it can never go down and it's just not right. Stocks go down in value, other things go down in value.

00:24:31:00 - 00:24:57:06
Matt
Why can't real estate go down? And yet people have this I hold forever because that's what my parents told me, because it's always going to go up. Well, it doesn't. On the other hand, if your loan is due in five years and 
you're at 3%, you're going to weather the storm just fine. Now, you talked about earlier, you know, one of the issues is just a tale of two cities.

00:24:57:06 - 00:25:24:09
Matt
You know, what's going to happen to B and C office building? Yes, the easy answer is conversion. And kind of you're going to need incentives from the government to make it happen. And they're doing it in a lot of cities. 
New York City is doing it. Yeah, that'll exploring it. You know, they'll solve some of it. But some of these buildings real question what's going to be there And you know you know if they're historic they don't get knocked 
down because they're historic, right?

00:25:24:10 - 00:26:01:20
Matt
I mean, yeah, that's not going to happen. So what do they become? Do they become your education centers, as you talked about? Do they become storage? Good question. You know, there's a lot of issues people face and they're 
going to have to face some because, you know, at some point they're going to realize values do come down and we deal with clients and prospective clients all the time are going, Hey, I saw you sold that for X, We think ours 
was worth X or more, and you just kind of look at them like going, Well, that was the high watermark.

00:26:01:20 - 00:26:06:19
Matt
I mean, things will come, you know, come down well.

00:26:06:19 - 00:26:41:01
Stuart
And I also think I think now it's coming to a point where, you know, we've had a lot of government intervention and saving industry bailout ing and that sort of thing. I have a feeling that, you know, people are, you know, through other sources, I'm looking at it saying, you know, I don't think we'll ever get back to 2% inflation given our population base and the changes with the boomers going into retirement, the extras being a smaller generation in the Y is just getting going or, you know, millennials just getting go going in their careers.

00:26:41:01 - 00:27:13:06
Stuart
So the consumption level's going to change. And we already see this in the labor market where, you know, there's just more jobs and people in an expected downturn. And perhaps that's the conversation that prevents us from saying we're in a recession. But I mean, ultimately the mission of the interest rate hikes is to slow business, letting people go, unfortunately, and increasing unemployment to the point where US come down because there are fewer people pursuing purchases.

00:27:13:23 - 00:27:37:19
Stuart
I, I really think that what probably will happen as far as I see it is government's going to look at the number of banks that are exposed to these loans that are going to fail because I don't know how I was going to ask you, how is an owner going to manage his commercial real estate scenario if he's 30% vacant now with no real hopes of signing new tenants?

00:27:38:01 - 00:27:46:01
Stuart
And is loans coming due and his loan to value is obviously off, how does that get resolved?

00:27:46:01 - 00:27:59:16
Matt
Well, how about what we discussed earlier? I mean, it may be that I'm forced to give the keys to the lender. They try to work out a work out situation, you know, over time, which is why.

00:27:59:16 - 00:28:20:19
Stuart
There's just no there's there's just no positive. Like the banks don't want them. There's you know, we don't want them sitting vacant. I mean, it's just a very precarious I think it's very precarious. But you to your point, 
we've you and I've been through multiple downturns in our 40 year career. And so we've seen stuff bounce back. And it's always interesting to see how it's going to happen.

00:28:21:08 - 00:28:39:15
Stuart
This one has me a little concerned because of the uncertainty around the utilization of office. And like I say, the conversion thing is is a hard thing to do with these floor plates that aren't designed for, you know, 
residential at least. So very, very concerning.

00:28:40:16 - 00:29:06:02
Matt
Yeah. I mean, it's going to be interesting conversion. I mean, you know, the other stat I saw is I think that's true came from a they said there's 330 million square feet of obsolete space by the end of this decade. 
The real question isn't that there's 330 million square feet is what the heck do we do with that 300 million?

00:29:06:13 - 00:29:27:05
Matt
Because I don't think it's all conversions, as you and I have discussed, is you're right. You know, if your floor plates don't have a depth of 34 to 36 feet and have reasonably good systems and have the right scale, 
it's hard to make it work. Yeah, Yeah. So what do so a lot of people are going to have challenges.

00:29:27:05 - 00:29:51:12
Matt
Is land value the value? Now that sounds bad, but if you can, if it has an up so you land may be worth more than the building, that can even be true good time. So we will see what happens on that front. But again, we go 
through it. Yeah, there are going to be losers. You use the example of someone whose loans do I feel badly for that individual.

00:29:52:06 - 00:30:03:11
Stuart
But it's what kind of the markets go through, unfortunately. I mean, yeah, it's like the stock market. We see stocks go down significantly right?

00:30:03:11 - 00:30:23:06
Matt
Okay. How do we end this conversation on a positive note? Give us something positive that you see in the market. I know in the last say, couple of months or six months that might lead us to I mean, you're on with your team or 
with you personally. Have you give me some positive when I needed.

00:30:23:11 - 00:30:48:11
Stuart
To give you a lot about some we've talked about But you know we look at projects we're selling or other folks in our office sell and there are buyers out there. So there are people who are believe there are intrinsic value in 
real estate. Now, they may think the value is less than some of the seller things, but they're bullish and they want to put their money to real estate.

00:30:49:00 - 00:31:14:04
Stuart
So I think there's capital out there to take care When we get to the bottom in price readjusts, There are groups around and there are always opportunity funds, but individuals are out there and then you combine that with 
interest rates coming down and if you see things coming back and I think there'll be people who make a lot of money now they're got to buy the right project and they have to have a vision.

00:31:14:15 - 00:31:21:09
Stuart
But I've always thought you should be rewarded for being smart, not just rewarded for having good timing. Yeah.

00:31:21:20 - 00:31:42:12
Matt
No, I agree. Well, Stuart, as always, thank you, you for your wealth of information and knowledge. It's always a great conversation when we chat about and nerd out about stuff like this. And I appreciate you joining us 
Transcending workspace and we appreciate the conversation.

00:31:43:14 - 00:32:07:07
Stuart
Matt, always a pleasure. Since I've known you for just a couple of years. Good together, we both looked different and talked differently than we did 45, 45 years ago. Got to date ourselves, right? So with that, I get to 
live the last word, which is go Bulldogs one more time. Thanks, Matt.

00:32:07:16 - 00:32:10:01
Matt
Thanks, Stuart.