Level Up with Duayne Pearce
I take on the role of an authoritative voice that fearlessly communicates truths drawn directly from my lived experiences. With a genuine sense of ownership, my insights are free from any hidden agendas – they truly belong to the audience. My stories and journey add remarkable value, the key now lies in harnessing its power effectively to help others.
My purpose is to create a new residential building industry. My mission is to inspire unshakable self-confidence in my colleagues in the industry, empowering them to orchestrate prosperous, enduring, and lucrative businesses that bring exceptional projects to fruition for our clients.
My goal is to foster a deeper comprehension among clients about the identity and functions of builders, redefining their perceptions.
Level Up with Duayne Pearce
It Took Having a Breakdown From Doing What Others Wanted Me to Do For Me to Find My True Passion.
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Jane Ledger, a former lawyer turned interior designer, shares her mission to change the way projects are started and rolled out in the construction industry. She emphasizes the importance of clients getting a full set of interior plans done before starting a project to accurately cost and visualize the final outcome. Jane discusses the need for better education and communication between designers, builders, and clients to avoid misunderstandings and unrealistic expectations.
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D Pearce Constructions
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It was at that point that I just said nah stop bitching and complaining about clients not knowing and this and that, and get those frustrations out of you.
Speaker 2:I really wasn't expecting this podcast to go down this path, but I love it because I'm really passionate about this. G'day guys. Welcome back to another episode of Level Up. We are out of the shed this afternoon and back on the internet because today's guest is coming to us all the way from perth. I'm looking forward to this one. It's going to be an interesting conversation because I like getting other people's opinions and point of views and just hearing what else can happen in our industry to help not only builders, tradies, but, more importantly, our clients, get the projects that they deserve to get. Our guest that we have for you today has been in the corporate world for 20 years. Prior to becoming an interior designer, she's actually been a lawyer of project management. She's worked in HR and then took the dive for the last 10 years into interior design. A big warm welcome to Jane Ledger. How are you?
Speaker 1:I'm well, Duane. Thanks for having me on.
Speaker 2:It's a bit of a different backstory. Most people don't come from being a lawyer to joining the construction industry.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I know Well, I mean, I guess, what I've noticed, though there's a lot of career changes in the interior design world, so a lot of interior designers have come from something else design world so a lot of interior designers have come from something else. But you're right, law to interior design was a big pivot in my life and it took me a long time to discover who I really was and what I wanted to be. Yeah, I stuck it out for, yeah, as you said, 20 years in a corporate environment. I worked for a large national law firm and I was a lawyer initially and then went into a whole series of management roles. So, yeah, I was HR manager, marketing manager, strategy governance, and yeah, there then came a point in time when I thought is this really what I want to do? And it was a pretty big personal upheaval in my life that caused me to really think about who am I and what do I want to do.
Speaker 2:I'm not sure what sort of law you're in, but did you know about the construction industry and how it operated and all the issues that it has?
Speaker 1:No, no, I didn't, because when I went to design school I thought the whole thing was going to be about colors and picking things and beautiful fabrics and furniture. So a lot of that I learned once I got in to the industry. But you know you could see it pretty quickly what it was all about.
Speaker 2:Basically, yeah, and I guess, like coming from that lawyer background like that would would it help you in what you do now and like help manage people's expectations and documentation and things getting ready before you bill.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I don't think I realised how much those skills would help me. The truth is, when I went into this creative part of my life, I just assumed I'd be leaving all those skills behind and they wouldn't have any relevance. But I soon realized that whilst I'd studied interior design and that's what I love doing I was actually running a business, and I think that's what we all realise as interior designers. We're running a business. We're running a business inside a big industry, and I absolutely drew on all of the stuff that I learnt in those 20 years and I had no idea that I would be. Yes, so communication is a big one. Presenting to people I had to present to boards, management teams, partners, groups across the firm. So that being in that space where you're speaking to people, actually trying to convince people to come on board with you to do something big, that's what I had done and also presentation skills as well. So, yeah, there are a lot of things that I've drawn on and I continue to draw on every day.
Speaker 2:That's awesome. We will move on. I'm very keen to dive into the main reason we sort of connected. But before we do that, it really interests me people changing careers, because I think a lot of people just get stuck doing day-to-day and I don't know, just for some reason hold back following their dreams and look you've obviously come from a very professional background and worked your way up, and so imagine, taking the leap to completely change careers was a big one.
Speaker 1:It was massive, as I sort of hinted at before. Sometimes I think it takes a personal upheaval, and I had some pretty traumatic events happen to me and in the scheme of things, I'm not saying it's all in context, right, but I had been in this career for many years, I had done well, I had probably gone as far as I could, but at the same time there were things going on in my personal life, and so that included trying to have a child, pregnancy loss, and I was in my early 40s and I found myself on the clifftop of Sydney's eastern coastline with a plastic bag in my hand and that plastic bag was filled with lots of ripped up bits of paper. And what were those bits of paper? They were years and years and years of journaling that I had done, dreams that I had for myself, and I guess, because I'd come through this experience of well, having lost a baby, that was terrible.
Speaker 1:I then went through lots of IVF to try and have a child. That didn't work, and so I'm not afraid or ashamed to say that it was those events that led me to really consider who are you? Who do you want to be? So all of the stuff that I had learned as an HR executive and, in fact, some of the resources that I had learned as an HR executive and, in fact, some of the resources that I used. I plucked one of those books off the shelf and then I did the work on myself, and that's that's what led me to change incredible story.
Speaker 2:I wasn't uh, I wasn't sure what, what was going to come of that question, but that that's awesome, because I'm really passionate about now people following their dreams. I don't think it matters what age you're at, what career you're doing like. I see a lot of people hold back and not follow their dreams because of what might be financial commitments or could even be the, the location they live in or whatever. But you really should never let anything hold you back, like Like once you. If you lose passion for something, you either have to find a way to get it back or you've got to find what your passion is and follow it, don't you?
Speaker 1:Yeah, you do. And it's not just going to people have this idea that it just springs out of nowhere or it falls out of the sky or something like that, which is such a great concept. I wish it were that easy. But I knew in my heart that I had to do the work and that was very confronting to be. But it also and this is going to sound so corny, but it felt very powerful to be in that position where I'm working on myself, because I had spent most of my life meeting the expectations of others, what other people thought I should be doing, what even I thought I should be doing, and to really just take a step away from all of that, step into yourself. But, as I say, you got to do the work. No one told me what to do. I had to find that out myself.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, look one of the books I took off the shelf it just sounds so corny. I think I've got it here, Duane. It's called Change your Life in Seven Days. But you know, it doesn't really matter what the book was or what the resource was. The concepts were the same of really working through a process of self-discovery. And who are you? What do you want to be. What would you do if you were guaranteed success?
Speaker 2:What would you?
Speaker 1:do if money was no object? Those kinds of questions.
Speaker 2:I really wasn't expecting this podcast to go down this path. Oh sorry, but I love it because I'm really passionate about this. Because, again, I feel like we all get I'd like to know why you possibly originally got into being a lawyer and stuff. Because, again, I feel like so many people go down these paths because of the way we're brought up and the people we're surrounded by, so a lot of people don't actually get to be who they really want to be. So was that a little bit of how your career started?
Speaker 1:Well, I would say it was directly why my career started, because I went through school in the late 1980s and I went to an all girls school and I don't know. I was kind of and again I'm not sort of ashamed to say this but I was pretty good at study. I was a good student. You would call me a good, really good, solid student and I happened to be good at English and public speaking and debating and that kind of thing. So the school counsellors just kind of said to me yeah, jane, you know, aim high, aim high, do the best, do the highest degree that you can. I think you should do law. And so I did.
Speaker 1:And back then it wasn't the done thing that you sort of can roam the field, consider your options, try a bit of this, try a bit of that. You know you felt you had to honour the education that you had been given and I did feel there was an expectation to do a pretty high level degree. But the truth is it was so boring I hated it. It was so boring, I hated it. I loved going to uni and I loved being around, the whole vibe of being in a law school and all of that. I mean, it just sounds so sort of cool, doesn't it Doing a law degree. It's so dull. But the problem was Duane, because I was this good student, right, I actually did well in the exams how annoying, right? And I often wish why couldn't I have finished the French and Italian and all of that that I did in first year. So, yeah, it was expectation.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, that's been fantastic. I'm glad we got to talk about that. But let's move on to why we're here today. Because you've reached out to myself because of what I'm doing and how I'm creating a new industry and stuff, and you've got your own little mission which is helping clients, and you've obviously put as much effort into design as you did in law, because you didn't muck around. You went to the International School of Colour and Design in Sydney, so you jumped in the deep end and went for it.
Speaker 1:Yep, I did. I did Well, I'd done all this work, remember. So I kind of knew how I wanted my new life to look and feel, yeah, when I went. Look, and the truth is, I actually went to that design school really as a bit of an experiment, because I'd spent so much time thinking in a very structured, corporatized way and in a very corporate environment, and so I thought let's just, this is what I think I want to do. So I wonder what it would be like if I could train my brain to bring out that right-hand side of my brain more. So I wasn't sure if it was going to work, but once I started that course, I absolutely just loved it. Yeah, it was really in the pocket for me.
Speaker 2:So what's involved with doing that sort of design course? Is it two years, three years?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so it was a two-year course. There are two diplomas that I have, and you would probably know that there isn't a accreditation or not, like a builder has a license. We don't have that framework as interior designers, so people can come into interior design having done all sorts of different forms of study and some no study at all. And so, yeah, I did two diplomas. It took well, it was supposed to take three years, but once I got into it I resigned from my corporate role and I did it on a fast track basis, so I did it in double time.
Speaker 1:And while I was completing that, I actually started my business. So I set up the website and because, remember, at this point I'm in my mid forties up the website Because, remember, at this point I'm in my mid-40s, right, and so I thought I know that everybody's waiting until they finish the course. I just don't have that time, sorry, I know this is now what I want to do, so I just kind of got everything ready so that once I officially finished, I could get going Jump into it.
Speaker 2:So let's dive into your passion, Jane. So you're all about the process for the client and hopefully working towards changing the way jobs start. Is that correct?
Speaker 1:Yeah, it is. And what I realized through all the projects that I've been a part of and also just observing what goes on in the building and construction industry also just observing what goes on in the building and construction industry. So I do quite a lot of renovation projects and new build projects and I'm designing the interiors of those. But what I soon realized is that people embarking on quite a significant investment in their home and in their family by way of a new build or a reno, they were going in underprepared and then getting completely overwhelmed by the process. And I think the penny dropped for me one day when I went out to a client who lives in a beautiful home on our West Coast so in a beachside suburb, in a beautiful home on our west coast, so in a beachside suburb and this woman phoned me and she said can you come out because we're thinking of doing a renovation. I said cool.
Speaker 1:So I go out there and I drive up to this home it's probably a late 90s or early 2000 home and I sort of do a bit of Google search on it before it probably cost about I don't know three and a half, four million dollars. So I go up to this home. The meet Julie and her husband. He, he goes off and has a swim in the pool with his kids, so he doesn't really get involved in the conversation. So I'm there with Julie and we're talking about her kitchen and she tells me that before she got me out she had a builder out who went yeah, yeah, probably just needs a bit of a freshen up. You know, you could always ask an interior designer. They could just, you know, get the cupboards painted or something like that. Anyway, thankfully Julie didn't do that. But we got in a chat about renovations and costs and what's involved and as the conversation evolved, chatting about, you know, marble, stones, different finishes, she's sharing images with me and I'm looking up, I'm sizing up this kitchen going, it's a pretty big space, and whatever.
Speaker 1:So then it comes to the time where I always like to discuss costs early with people because I feel that that's my responsibility to do that. So the conversation gets to that and she says to me so how much do you reckon it's going to cost? I said, well, I'm looking at your home and the size of the kitchen and what your island bench might be. You know, it's going to be at least 90, probably north of 90 grand. And then there was this, just this horrible silence.
Speaker 1:And I looked over at Julie and I saw the gulp, but worse than that, there were tears in her eyes, so she was actually sort of crying. She said 90 grand. I thought it would be about I don't know 40. And I just got really and then I drove away from this home and I was thinking this is just wrong. This is not Julie's fault, this is our fault, that I'm rolling up to this property and there's a woman in this home who thinks she can do a kitchen in 2024 for 40 grand. And it was at that point that I just said nah, stop bitching and complaining about clients not knowing and this and that, and get those frustrations out of you. It's up to me, it's my responsibility, to educate people in the gentlest way that I can about what's involved in a reno in this age that we're in and what it involves, because I don't want to go out to more jewelies.
Speaker 2:Education is 100% the key to solving every problem our industry has, from trades and builders not running businesses well not just even designers and architects not running businesses properly to clients having more understanding about what's involved and even timeframes and costs. There is so much to it, so you're doing a podcast as well, aren't you? That is helping.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I am, I am and I guess that's you know. Julie's story is the reason why I started it, because I thought if I can get this information out there to more people and help this education process, because I was repeating the same kinds of stories every time I went out to a client. So yeah, I'm just so passionate about this, I'm obsessed by it actually, what's your podcast called. My podcast is called Inside Design.
Speaker 2:Yeah, awesome, so everyone needs to go and check that out, thank you. So what do you do to? We'll get on to documentation, those types of things, but what do you do as a designer to educate yourself about costs so that you can guide your client?
Speaker 1:A lot of the education that I've got is from projects that I've done. So I've designed many kitchens, bathrooms, laundries, all the rest of it. I've been involved in lots of renovations. So I know how much they cost. So I have the data. So I know how much they cost, so I have the data.
Speaker 1:I'm also speaking to builders all the time about how much stuff costs and as well. I'm just always asking questions. So if I'm out on site, like I was recently, and I don't know the answer to a cost, I'll be raising it on site. I find a lot of people want to kick things down the road, like yeah, we'll get to that later, and I'm saying, but to pull up these floorboards and get the floors polished, and you, you want that polished concrete. Look, how much do you reckon that's going to be? They go, you know, maybe 10, I don't know how do you. Or have you done one recently? It's not 10 grand, is it? No, no, it's not. So I'm always I'm not trying to be that person that's sort of the downer but I equally feel it's my responsibility not to kid people about how much things cost.
Speaker 2:I do exactly what you're talking about and I get told on the handbrake all the time, but I would rather be. I feel like there's a lot of people in our industry that are people pleasers and they don't want to stir the pot, they don't want to have uncomfortable situations, so they end up causing themselves more problems because they do exactly what you just said. They get asked about cost and they throw these figures around not thinking anything of it, just saying oh, when the paperwork's done or the document's done, we can price it properly, but missing the reality that the client has listened to that figure. And now, now that figure is in their head and so when the documentation is done and you can't, they they send it to you, you price it and that that 10 grand floor comes back at a $28,000 floor, then they wonder why the client's annoyed.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 2:Instead of just saying straight up front oh look, we've recently done a job like that. It was such and such per square meter which, given this size, it's probably going to be 25 to 30 grand size.
Speaker 1:It's probably going to be 25 to 30 grand Exactly. Just say it. Say it and I just feel you can do that. When you, I just come from a place of honesty and integrity and knowing that it's actually kind to be honest to people and I think people get this confused they might think it's kinder to say, yeah, we can probably do it for that, and then deep down they're going shit, there's no way we can. But it comes out of their mouth and I'm the same. I'm not trying to pull people up, I come from a place of curiosity. So I'll say when you say that it's only going to be 10 grand, is that just for the first step or do you mean is that for the completed outcomes? Can you just break that down for me and for us and I'm referring to my clients who are standing in the conversation Can we just do you mind if we pause Could perhaps take us through the the four steps that it takes to get that polished concrete floor?
Speaker 1:then we might sort of be getting there yeah so that's my way of doing it is to is to speak with empathy where I can, knowing that, as the person giving the bad news, you don't want to give the bad news if someone're so on the same page with this.
Speaker 2:It's not funny Because, again, that scenario you just said, knowing what I know now about the industry and doing a lot of personal development, a lot of research into personas and all those types of things, it's actually that most trades and builders in our industry are Indigos. So the way that Indigos are is you don't you're always thinking about the way you look at things or the way you interpret things, and so you need to widen your mindset and learn a bit more about other personas so that you can connect with people. In that situation, a lot of people in our industry, if they're asked that question, would say that that's worth 10, of people in our industry, if they're asked that question, would say that that's worth $10,000 because in their mind they've only heard what's the polished concrete going to be. But, like you said, there's more steps to it than that. So, instead of taking the time to go, oh look that $10,000 is actually only for the honing To get to that stage, we actually have to do this, we do that, we do this.
Speaker 2:It's going to take my team this. We're going to have to hire that, and they might come back when the final cost works out to be whatever I said $28,000. And they will be like oh, but look, the Conquer growing is 10. We told you it was going to be 10. And they don't think anything of it, that they didn't explain all these other costs right but like you've got to give people.
Speaker 2:I'm the same as you.
Speaker 2:I work from integrity and honesty and I I just want to be as upfront with people as possible, because the last thing I want is people leaving a meeting or signing a contract and not knowing the bigger picture.
Speaker 2:I want my clients and it's not just because I want my clients to get the best outcome or have confidence in me.
Speaker 2:I've been through the shitty days where I had those conversations and then you do the work and you think you can claim for it and the client doesn't want to pay for it because you didn't give them all the information, all those things. So these days it's all about just give them all the information up front, educate them on what things are going to cost, and then the client can tell myself and the designer what they see value in, and once I've explained the whole process to them, they might be more than happy to spend the 28 down dollars to get the situation we're talking about, or they might be able to. The thing that I find from being honest about these types of things is it actually saves so much time, because if I'm honest and upfront and tell them, hey look, it's going to be $28,000 for this, this, this, this. Generally, a lot of the time it's a decision on the spot Okay, we can't do that, let's move on. Or look, actually that sounds doable, let's keep moving towards it.
Speaker 1:A hundred percent, and I think it's having that ability too of weighting different options. You know we've talked about the polished concrete floor. That might be super important to someone for reasons that we don't yet know, and that's why, taking a proper brief, I don't even call it a brief anymore, it's called a. It's a listening workshop with the client. I don't even call it a brief anymore, it's a listening workshop with the client. I did one the other day. That was six hours and it was only after the six hours, where I'm knowing what they're doing on a Tuesday night, how they spend their Sundays.
Speaker 1:But also, why was this idea of the sauna coming up so often? Well, as we dug into it, I learned that this particular client has had some pretty tough illnesses in her time. This really essential part of her new home is having this sauna because she's doing this sort of contrasting health programs you know programs and whatever. So a lot of people just go oh, we don't have room for the sauna. You know we need to do this. So it's the weighting of different options and that does mean that perhaps, yeah, we can't do the marble kitchen.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:That's okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it's completely okay. But so you're, you're getting all. You're trying to work as much of this out in pre-construction.
Speaker 1:I only do it pre-construction.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that's where we'll dive into a little bit more, because I think we're on the exact same page here and I can't stress this enough to anybody in our industry. And again it comes back to integrity and being honest. Like, if a client rings us now or reaches out to us, fills out inquiry form whatever the case may be and says, hey, we want to start our house in three months, four months' time, we'll be brutally honest with them and say, well, have you got a designer? Yeah, like we have clients that reach out and say they want to build in six months and they haven't even purchased a house or a block of land yet.
Speaker 2:Yeah, right, okay. Want to build in six months and they haven't even purchased a house or a block of land yet. Yeah, right, okay. So you've got to be brutally honest with them and where, like we, we've obviously we run a very tight ship and a very successful building business, which is what I'm trying to get everyone in the industry to that point. But when you get in that position, you don't have to put the pressure on the clients, and I feel a lot of pressure that builders and tradies put on their clients is simply because they're chasing their tail and they need the next paycheck. So there's all this pressure to rush the documentation, to rush the approvals, and you end up starting a job on site that hasn't been completely documented, correct, and I know you're passionate about this and, yeah, again, I'll refer back to the days when we weren't running a very good business. We did that and, looking back now, it was the cause of 90 of our problems once we started on site, because we would have to be chasing the client for information. Or you had a good example before where the client hasn't made any selections. They're ringing an interior designer like yourself and saying, hey, the builder wants tiles on site in three weeks' time. We don't even know what we're doing. So documentation I tell all my clients now the more time and money you spend up front, the smoother your job will flow, the better scope of work everyone will have. All your expectations will be met. The builder can price it accurately. To me it's a no-brainer.
Speaker 1:I know. But and you know, for me coming into this industry fairly late and you'd say that 10 years is a pretty good you know, I've seen a into the industry late where I think some of these practices it's just been, oh, but that's the way it's always been done, so that's the way we'll continue doing it. But I want to be the disruptor in that process to say that might be how your cousin's friend did it back in the late 90s. This is a better way and that's part of the skill of what all of us as professionals have to offer in this industry is we do have the benefit of that hindsight. We've seen stuff go wrong. We've seen clients just sort of scramble around for finishes and, of course, builders under pressure. So one of the biggest things that I've noticed is and I don't want to blame it on builders, I'm not it's often client driven as well of getting to site quick, because I've heard things take a long time. So let's just get to site quick and that's when the trouble starts, as you've just outlined.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Jane, I'm going to have to get you to collaborate. I'm not a very good reader or writer, but I've started. I'm writing a book. It could take me a couple of years to get it finished, oh.
Speaker 1:God, I'm so excited.
Speaker 2:But it's actually well, I'm going to call it. Fuck the old way.
Speaker 1:My gosh. And here I am, you know, timidly saying I call it the tried and true method and I just call it, you know, the tired and not true process. Well, you've just eclipsed that in one word, and I am here for it. Good on you. That just sounds amazing.
Speaker 2:I'll get you to collaborate in a bit of it. So how do you, when a client approaches you, how do you explain the process? How do you get them involved in it?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so obviously I'm getting inquiries in different ways from different people, but I have a process, and the one thing that I have learned is that I need to stick to my process, because otherwise things go astray, and the process always starts with a phone call. So people might think, oh, why would you want to spend time on the phone with all these people? Well, we can cut to the chase pretty quick, and I also need to read people, so I need to know you before I will even come out to your house for a consultation. I need to hear you, and people can think that's just so woo-woo. I don't feel that way. Part of the reason I reached out to you, duane, is because I feel as though I know you. I've heard your voice, I've listened to your podcast. When strangers contact us, we don't know them, and so I have to have that phone call first and look for better or for worse. I'm raising these issues of costs and process and I'm also going to add fees to that conversation right up front, because, again, I feel it's my responsibility and you soon work out pretty quickly who's aligned and who isn't. So, yeah, it starts with a conversation, then my process. Should that conversation go okay.
Speaker 1:I then move to a design consultation, and the design consultation is all about just sharing more information about what a renovation involves, what a new build involves, the parties that you might include in that and I'm taking people through my proposal already and you can say why would you be pulling that out in the design consultation? Shouldn't you be talking? You know colors and cushions and taps. I feel that the best way to start is the way you want to finish, which is with an organized process, and I do stand quite. I was going to say firm, but no, I do stand firm on that process. It's not a case where someone can say, oh, we only want this, but can you just do that? No, it's this process because I know it works and because I want the best outcome for you.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, I have a process. It's three phases, which is project initiation, then it's all the interior design drawings, documentation and presentation, and then it's design implementation, which is the construction part, but of course, the word. There is design implementation. Times when people think, as the interior designer, I'm somehow going to be the site supervisor or a project manager or I don't have the qualifications to do that. So I'm there as a check-in on design implementation. So it's three phases, 10 steps. That's the process.
Speaker 2:But just like in everything you've just said then, then you've just added so much value to the client, like so many people overlook it in our industry, like you like first of all, like everything you just said then was so powerful. So you, you know your ideal client you're, you're sussing them out before you go and waste time meeting them and driving out to their site and those types of things like. But, yeah, you've just added so much value. And again, I just just think it's something. I don't know if people are scared, they think they're going to frighten people away, but reality is you will frighten some clients away, but the ones that stay and love your process are going to add the most value to your business.
Speaker 1:Yes, and they're the ones you want.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly Because those ones are going to attract more people like them.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's exactly right, yeah and so how do you like sell? Because I still hear like a lot of people reach out to me and um ask about our preliminary process and because I talk a lot about the more time and money you spend up front, the better the process project will be. And I know there's a lot of people out there that try and skimp on the documentation. And I know there's a lot of people out there that try and skimp on the documentation and I know there's a lot of designers and architects out there that basically have reduced fees to like they'll. They'll do a certain amount and then there'll be a fee for another amount and those types of things.
Speaker 2:But, like on our jobs, ideally the designs and architects we work with are doing a full package. So we don't just want floor plans and elevations, we want elevations of all the joinery, we want elevations of wet areas. Because for me again, just like using my past experience it, it created so much more time for myself and my office team administering projects, because you would have to meet the client on site more. You'd have to stand in the room and try and sort out where they want the toilet roll, where they want towel rolls, what height do they want the tiles to finish at. You're trying to do all this on site so that you can order tiles, so that you can keep the job moving, whereas when it's all documented it's just done. We schedule a job, we order the materials.
Speaker 1:It's so much better for everybody. Yeah, so look, I think you know, duane, that I call it designing on the run and I also call it designing in a linear fashion, where people think we do, let's just get the plan into council quick, then let's get the architect to do the elevations, then do this, then appliances, then tiles. To me that's just a scrambled approach, and I know it's scrambled. It's not just me imposing my judgment on this, it's the phone calls that I get every week from people who are in this now and they're scrambling for stuff. My process involves delivering that complete documentation set before anything has occurred on site.
Speaker 1:And really the other reason I do this is that I want my clients to be really settled in. My clients to be really settled in. Let's imagine that we're just putting on a pair of beautiful leather Italian shoes. I want my clients getting comfortable in those shoes, which is their interior plans, their home. I also want them getting comfortable with the cost of the Italian shoes. But when they've seen it all in advance, it's so easy for us to make changes, to say, no, I'm happy with the. I don't know, it doesn't have to be the Italian leather, it can be some other fabric, or you know, we're talking through both cost and design at the same time.
Speaker 1:At the beginning which is why I call it a circle, not a line, right? So you've got this group of professionals with you from the beginning and we are working through the design, through every single itch, every detail of it. Every wall is drawn, every elevation is in there, every piece of joinery is carefully documented and drawn. And because people often think about, I don't have the finishes from a kitchen yet, and I'll say so, where is the kitchen? It's just an indicative sort of thing on a house plan and I think what people forget is there's the design of the kitchen, but then there's also the design of the actual joinery and all the materials are drawn in as well. So, as well as designing, we're specifying at the same time.
Speaker 1:So the package that gets to you as the builder is fully drawn and documented, but it's specified as well. So you know exactly where the marble's going, how high it's going above the splashback. It's all there, and we've taken the client through this very, very detailed presentation. So presentation day is my favorite day of the year because I've spent well as I've done last week six hours with a couple on how they live, what they love doing, the ins and outs of how they sleep, when they wake up and at the same time I'm folding in information from the builder about a certain sort of stone that I want to use and where we're starting that drawings process, and then in I'm going to say maybe three months, I'll have presentation day with these clients where we're presenting the whole package to them.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:It is a highly technical part of what we're doing, but I just want everybody to be comfortable. I want you, as the builder, to be comfortable, my client to be really comfortable in these shoes that we're now about to go walking in.
Speaker 2:Nobody's making assumptions when you go to that level of detail, it's out in the open, it can be priced correctly.
Speaker 2:I'm a huge fan of the clients being able to see what they're getting before we start. And the reality is like for clients that want to rush through plans, get started quickly and then think they'll sort things out on the run and they feel like that's going to save some money. They're the ones that have all the variations and have all the time delays and the builders charging extra fees and all these types of things because you're figuring everything out along the way. But the reality is the final cost will be whether it was drawn correctly and all sorted out at the beginning and costed correctly at the beginning, or you rushed, you started and you figured it out during the way. The reality is, if you want something, it's going to end up costing you more doing it that way in the long run.
Speaker 2:Anyway, exactly like you're not going to. Just, you're still going to be paying the cost for the products, the materials, the design you want, but you're going to have probably variation fees and time extensions and extra charges that have been added in along the way. If you had to just put that bit extra time in the beginning and money into getting good documentation and working like I don't know why people try and skimp on the meetings with designers and architects in the beginning, thinking that it's quick, it's, it's better to get the builder on site sooner. Yeah, like I just know how much my business has grown by just holding back, no pressure on the client. Work through the design, make all your selections, finish all the documents off, sign the documents off, get them approved, and it's just such a smooth process.
Speaker 1:It is. I mean, everything just flows out of that process, because I think what people perhaps don't realise is that they're buying an experience as well. So your build experience can either be scrambled and chaotic or it can be smooth and actually enjoyable, and it's that that you're paying for as well the peace of mind. But coming back to your thought about you know why do people do this? Well, I actually think there are mindset issues there too. You know we've talked about mindset. You talk about it a lot and I see it in my clients.
Speaker 1:So when I'm again going through my process and just standing in my space of what I do, which is very much a space of take it or leave it but I don't say it that way, it's always up to you, but in my mind I know I'm not going to move from my process, and I have a feeling that a lot of this is about mindset, because people look at professional fees. So let's just talk about professional fees. You're a builder, I'm a designer, so my fee structure is different to yours, right? So I'm charging a professional fee to go through this process, draw up these plans, all the rest of it. Professional fee to go through this process, draw up these plans, all the rest of it, and I mean I'd actually like I'm going to start asking people, why did you say yes to me?
Speaker 1:And maybe I'll go back and say why did you say no? And it'll be about cost. Of course it is, and I think people have trouble spending money on things that perhaps they think they should be able to do themselves. I don't know, I'm just posing it as a question. I don't have the answer. I also think people have no trouble spending money on the new Range Rover in their driveway, but if I was to ask them to spend the same amount of money on me, there would be a hesitation.
Speaker 2:Yeah, or I think like one of the examples with that and look, I definitely got stuck. I was one of these people in the old days. I used to think why would you pay all that money for joinery drawings when the cabinetmaker is going to do it for free? Yeah right. But I've learned the cabinetmaker does the drawings to suit his machinery and his cutting list and all those types of things, and it is nothing like having a full set of documented elevations from an interior designer. Or look, to be honest with you, we don't have. Well, I shouldn't say we don't, because the architects and designers we work with have them in-house. I was going to say we don't work with interior designers, but they're all part of the process.
Speaker 1:Yeah, sure.
Speaker 2:But yeah, and it took me a long time to change my mindset on that because in my mind I was saving my clients money, because I was like, oh no, look, we'll just the cabinet making sort that out. He can measure up and and work with you on that. But again, like I was saying before, the improvement that I've seen in my business and how efficiently we can run the jobs by having all this documentation prior to going to contract is insane.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I can imagine and I think also because I've asked builders and cabinet makers this, and I know that cabinet makers, like builders, they're the smartest people I know. They're so smart they can do just so much. But the truth is the cabinet maker does not want to be the designer. The builder does not want to be the designer. They want to build. You want to be operating in your zone of expertise and when I've seen clients work with cabinet makers, well, firstly, they're completely overwhelmed with work and run off their feet.
Speaker 1:My question to that client is who in the team of people that you're grabbing at, who is taking your brief? Who knows what you're doing on Tuesday night dinners and what you're doing on Sunday? Who knows that? Can you point to me the person who knows that? Because I know for my clients what they're doing and therefore the kitchen cabinetry and the kitchen design for that client will be completely different from what I do for the client next door. And that's the thing that I think. Perhaps people, perhaps this is feeding into this idea of not wanting to pay professional fees. I don't know that designing a kitchen is the same for everybody, and I guess I'm here to say no, it's not, it's completely different.
Speaker 2:I'll put my hand up and say for all builders and traders out there you're really doing your clients a big injustice by not pushing them to get proper documentation. You can get them. You believe our clients get such a better outcome now, just the fact that we push them to engage with designers and architects. We push them to get the full package, all the specifications, all the full package, all the specifications, all the selections, all the interior designs. Like I feel like a lot of people again, this this is probably me. Back in the day, I didn't see the value in having wet area drawings and I didn't realize how, how many problems we were creating for ourselves by not having them in our drawing packages, whereas, like I said, it's, it's just so easy now. Like you know where the you know where the shower screens are going, you know where the mixes are going, you know where the tower rails are, the road books, um. You know if it's a wall hung vanity. You can set up the fight. Work like it's, it's just.
Speaker 1:And the tiler the tiler who's working on your job. They know exactly what tile they're laying, they know the format, they know the orientation, they know how high that tile is going.
Speaker 2:Everybody, like the waterproof, can look at the drawings and know that it's full height tiling so that he can do his waterproof. Or it might be a detailed tiling set out that might stop at a certain measurement, so he knows he's got to stop his waterproofing somewhere, so it doesn't affect the painting, like there's yeah, there's just so much to it, but are you, are you collaborating? Like do you have builders and tradesmen that you see regularly or they're involved in a lot of your projects?
Speaker 1:yeah. So it works in a few ways. I do smaller reno's as well. So in between the larger big sort of renovation and new builds, I'm doing small projects too, which is amazing. So I have a fantastic team that I work with there.
Speaker 1:I'm not financially affiliated with anybody. The clients who come to me, whether it's a small project or a large one, they're engaging me independent of a builder one. They're engaging me independent of a builder. But, of course, once you've worked with a builder, once you get continued work, but it's always the decision of the client to engage me separately, because I am not old up in the contract of a builder. So I know and I'm really happy to open this up, Duane, because just in the interest of transparency and what we're both trying to do, I know that some builders may look at my fees and just go what she's charging you? What to do that package? Because I know that some of your builders who are listening right now will think, yeah, it, it's probably what? A couple of thousand dollars or something. I don't know what your audience might be thinking. It is not that.
Speaker 2:It is a lot more than that yeah and look, that's something I've had to educate myself on because I again, 10 years ago I was, I was that builder that didn't see the value in other professionals, whereas now, like, we try to stay right out of that. Like, if our clients come to us, we recommend them to designers and architects we're working with and we make it very clear that we're not financially connected or anything, and whatever fees they charge has nothing to do with us. But if a client asks us for an indication, I'll always tell them look for a building designer. You're going to be generally somewhere between 5% and 10% or higher of the construction cost. If you go to an architect, you're going to be anywhere from possibly 8% to 15%, even higher. Yep, that's right. And again, I know there's a lot of builders and traders out there that will hear those percentages and go whatever. Like, is it I'm going to pay? Are my clients going to pay 10%, 15% of the build cost for the designer?
Speaker 2:Knowing what I know now and like we do, you would have heard me talk about. We do what we call a PAC process. So paid as a consultant, yeah, we charge a small fee to come. So I go to the design meetings and I love it. I believe it's made me a better builder by sitting in. I'm not there to control it, I'm simply there to as discussions are being had, I can put costing input in and help guide the client on some of the decisions, or even the designer on the direction the job might go based on cost. I know from being at those meetings I've learned so much about why things get done and why things are put in certain positions, and a lot you've touched on with getting to know your clients. I can't believe how much value a good designer adds to the client when they learn about how they live and they make the house their own, like they're not just putting lines on paper and shoving another one out the door, like it actually is their home. It's designed for them, it suits their lifestyle, their their hobbies.
Speaker 1:They're like, yeah, it's so powerful yeah, it really is, and I also think your whole pack process just makes so much sense to me. It was one of the reasons why I kind of got hooked on your podcast, because so often people are coming in at different times when I think if we were all here, if we were all standing here in the same conversation, we would be getting so much more done, and so that's now really that is the path that I want my clients to go down is get that builder in early, but more so, not just oh great, we got a builder. Bring them in to the design process, because then we all know what each other is talking about and there is so much to learn from each other as professionals well, yeah, we've added so much value to our clients by doing that and, like I say, I'm learning a lot.
Speaker 2:But the designers and architects that we work with are telling me that they're learning a lot as well. Like so, and just again it comes back to making the whole process so much smoother, like, especially in a renovation, from the design meeting like quite often what happens at a design meeting, I'll take some notes and then I might have to go out and do a site investigation. So I'll check things like plumbing or structural walls and and make all these notes and I'll feed them back to the design team. So because, as you know, like that affects what you do, yeah, if something, if something can't be moved or it might add substantial costs, we're working as a team. It's an absolute no-brainer.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I agree, and things like roof structures. You know, I just can't comment on that, whereas you can. Yeah. You know, so we need all of those inputs coming through to us to know what are the structures that we're going to have to change in this home, and so what are we going to have to allow to get that portion of the roof replaced? I don't know the answer to that question, but when it's folded in early, then we're starting to get a good idea of where this reno might be going.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, we've actually got a few pack we do through our Live Like Build website. You can go in there and get pack trained and we've actually got a few pack trained builders over your way.
Speaker 1:Well. I think I discovered that because I saw that you had awards recently and I think there is a WA builder who took out some highly commended awards. Is that right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, amazing.
Speaker 2:So we'll start to wrap it up, jane, but it's been absolutely great talking to you. To wrap it up, what's a couple of things that you would recommend that builders and trades out there listening they could start doing to help create more of this collaboration and working together?
Speaker 1:I would pause. So I think you and I have both talked about not rushing in. So pause before you start sort of grabbing at stuff and taking your client on a rollercoaster ride. That could actually turn into a nightmare. But I guess, more specifically than that, pause and give your clients the opportunity to engage the services of an interior design professional or an architect or I'm not saying it's me or other interior designers, because I find that when you give people the opportunity to make the decision themselves, when you give people the opportunity to make the decision themselves, they're in a much more powerful position.
Speaker 1:So don't assume that clients won't want to pay for the services of an interior designer. I would put it forward. Put it forward with confidence. I know for my own part, when builders recommend me, I just go out to the client and I show them the documentation set from a previous project and they go. Is that what you're doing? And we're literally doing a page turn on what that documentation package looks like. Then the builder sees it and their eyes just light up. They just go. Oh my God, now I know what to cost and I also know what to build. So don't deny your clients at least the opportunity they may not be able to engage with it, but don't assume that they won't want to invest in it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, it's definitely good advice. I would again, I'd back that up and say, like, just push your clients to get documentation. It's so important, jane. Well, look, thanks very much for taking some time to jump on the podcast today. We really appreciate having you on. It's a pleasure, dwayne. Where can people find you and your information, podcasts, all those types of things?
Speaker 1:Yeah, thank you. So I do hang out on Instagram a little bit. My handle on Instagram is at JaneLedgerInteriors. My website is janeledgercomau and my podcast, which you can find on Apple, spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts, is called Inside Design with Jane Ledger.
Speaker 2:Well, look for everyone listening. Please reach out, go and check out the fantastic work that Jane's doing and look as usual. If you love this podcast and what we talk about, yeah, comment, like, share all those types of things so we can continue to make this Australia's number one construction podcast. Look forward to seeing you on the next one.
Speaker 1:Are you ready to build smarter, live better and enjoy life? Then head over to livelikebuildcom forward. Slash, elevate to get started.
Speaker 2:Everything discussed during the Level Up podcast with me, dwayne Pearce, is based solely on my own personal experiences and those experiences of my guests. The information, opinions and recommendations presented in this podcast are for general information only, and any reliance on the information provided in this podcast is done at your own risk. We recommend that you obtain your own professional advice in respect to the topics discussed during this podcast.