The Extreme Cost of a Lean, Ripped Body and Visible Abs with Brittany & James Gatewood | Ep 193

What does it ACTUALLY take to achieve a lean, ripped, shredded physique?

Join Philip (@witsandweights) as he welcomes Brittany and James Gatewood, the powerhouse couple behind the "Macros, Mindset, and Muscles" podcast, for an in-depth conversation about the physical and mental demands of achieving extreme leanness.

In this episode, Philip and his guests explore the rigorous journey of bodybuilding and fitness competitions. From the meticulous planning and unwavering discipline to the significant lifestyle adjustments, they lay out the real costs of getting stage-ready. Brittany and James share their personal experiences, including the sacrifices, challenges, and ultimate rewards of pushing their bodies and minds to the limit. Together, they discuss the importance of having a solid lifting foundation and the impact of extreme fitness routines.

Brittany started her fitness journey to become healthier for her children, and James began as a "hard gainer" looking to build muscle. Now, they use their expertise to coach and inspire others through Phoenix Transformations.

Tune in to discover if you're ready to take on the challenge and achieve extraordinary goals. 

Today, you’ll learn all about:

2:29 Cost of achieving and maintaining a lean physique
5:06 Setting realistic expectations for fitness goals
7:02 Breakdown of the physical and mental demands of bodybuilding prep
11:47 Prep duration and the role of refeeds and diet breaks in a prep phase
15:02 The impact of metabolic adaptation and the importance of monitoring progress
21:06 Lifestyle adjustments, extreme adherence, and tips for staying on track
25:12 Sustainable practices for long-term leanness
27:36 Tracking progress and making adjustments
30:47 Symptoms and health risks associated with extreme leanness
36:26 Prerequisites for considering a bodybuilding competition
42:34 Long-term health risks of staying very lean
43:55 Real-life client success story and the benefits of a structured plan
45:35  Additional costs and considerations for competing in bodybuilding
48:57 How to connect with Britanny and James
49:36  Outro

Episode resources:

• Get your free meal prep guide (scroll to the bottom of the page) at transformwithphoenix.com.
• Podcast: Macros, Mindset, and Muscles

Transcript

Brittany Gatewood: 0:01

It's a huge accomplishment, it's proving to yourself that I can do hard things if you can push your body and push yourself and your mind because there's a lot of mental in this as well, to follow the plan and stick to your goal and accomplish that goal. Even if you don't win, you still got on stage and you're still doing something that 99% of the population can't do. It's just showing that you're capable of great things.

James Gatewood: 0:27

When I first did my first show, it was like, what in my entire life have I dedicated 100% of everything that I do it to one thing, Bernie extended period of time like what is possible? What could I do

Philip Pape: 0:45

Whitson weights community Welcome to another episode of the wits and weights Podcast. Today I am pumped to welcome Brittany and James Gatewood, a married couple and the dynamic duo behind the macros mindset and muscles podcast, and the founder and head coaches of Phoenix transformations. Now Brittany and I connected through one of our mentors, and we realize why don't we bring together our expertise to you, dear listener through a guest swap on both of our shows. So I want you to go ahead and check out and follow their podcast macros mindset of muscles, which I'm gonna link to in the show notes if you want even more practical advice, motivational stories, because fitness doesn't have to be frustrating, right? We all want to be more clear and confident with our fitness and health. So that's what they're all about. James is a hard gainer he got into fitness because he was always a thin guy. Brittany was obese and got into fitness to live a healthier life for her kids. They met on Instagram. Pretty cool. You don't hear that happening too often. And they encourage each other's journeys. Now they combined their personal experience and professional expertise to coach and inspire others. So we've got a fun topic today. Especially if you're considering getting shredded. If you thought I want to compete. I just want to get jacked. I want six pack abs. Hold on. Listen to this show, I invited Brittany and James on to discuss the extreme realities of doing that of achieving and maintaining a lean, ripped physique. We'll explore the significant physical and mental demands, the lifestyle adjustments, the long term health implications that come with striving for visible abs. And we're not saying it's a bad thing. But we're going to lay out the realities for you today, our discussion will cover sustainable practices, but the impact of extreme fitness routines on mental health, social life and how to transition from extreme dieting to a balanced healthy lifestyle. Brittany, James, welcome to the show.

Brittany Gatewood: 2:27

Thanks for having us. Glad to be here.

Philip Pape: 2:29

So let's just jump right in and talk about this whole getting lean thing, right. And maybe talk about the cost of it from the context of the misconceptions, right? Somebody comes to you, maybe a client, maybe somebody in the podcasts are like, Yeah, you know, I've been lifting weights, maybe they haven't yet, but let's just assume I'm a guy, I'm 20% body fat. I'm a female, I'm 30%. And I want to compete in physique competition, or I want to be, you know, beach ready, I just want to be the most jacked, ripped, you know, great looking person on the beach. And you're like, yeah, that's easy, right? Well, what are the misconceptions people have about this?

Brittany Gatewood: 3:03

Yeah, we totally lead with that. Like, it's totally easy. You should do it, like, jump right in right now. Just go for it. I think really, the reality is, is people think it's easy. You know, they idolize people they see on social media, you know, their favorite Instagram influencer, or, you know, professional athletes, bodybuilders, things like that. And they're like, I want to look like that. And, you know, they might see that person's before and after picture. And they're like, they did it. So I can do it, not realizing how much time in between those two photos like has taken place, and also the methods at which those results were obtained. So there is a big cost of achieving those results. You know, and talking about some of this? Well, I think

James Gatewood: 3:47

a lot of people think that, oh, there's just, I had to change this little aspect of my life, and then I'll get these great results, not the reality of the having to change everything, like for it to go to the extremes. And like she was saying that the amount of time and how long of a period of time that you have to stick to these things, to hit those goals and to achieve that look. And it's only for a very short period of time. Like she said, a lot of people that you're seeing on social media has dieted down for like months and months and months. And then they took all these photos that they post all year long. They don't stay at that weight. They don't maintain that level of sharpness for very long.

Philip Pape: 4:23

Yeah, for sure. Yeah, no. I mean, we allude to the before and after pictures on IG all the time, right? Now, the algorithm is so nefarious, for good reason. They want you to engage as much as possible and sell you ads. And I know if I just if I tap something that just catches my eye. For the next like 10 days, every image is an extreme version of that. So if it's like, oh, this person looks good. I'm just gonna look at that picture. And all of a sudden, you get the extreme. And when you look behind the scenes, you realize that they're associated with oftentimes these promotional profiles and these scammy profiles isn't right. It's not even real. A lot of it isn't but then at the same time, many of us follow have legitimate bodybuilders and competitors and people who train and work hard at doing this. And it is legitimate. I guess before we get into the details of the specific costs, when somebody wants to do this, how do we step back and even look at that goal in the first place? Like how do we put their goal in context of whether it's really a goal they should be pursuing? How they evaluate those goals? You know, what I'm saying? Like to question whether you should do it at all from that perspective.

Brittany Gatewood: 5:25

So I think this is actually a great like, question because a lot of people just jump into this blindly, they have zero expectation of what it actually takes what the process entails, of the sacrifices that you'll make the things that you'll miss out on, you know, while you're preparing for this, and the costs, like the actual financial costs associated with like, a competition prep. So having those conversations with somebody who does express interest in this type of aesthetic goal, you know, setting those realistic expectations is I think, a big key to long term success. Because if they know everything going in, then they can decide like this is for me, I'm financially in a good place. I can financially afford this. I have the time to dedicate to this goal. You know, I'm okay with eating my meal prep all when I go to social events, I won't be peer pressured, I don't have a problem with alcohol. All these things like play a big role in your success for achieving like this level of leanness. Does that answer your question? Yeah,

Philip Pape: 6:33

yeah, for sure. Yeah, yeah. So just for the listener, you know, it's one on two here. And, you know, they know, this is it's not super common. It's fun, though. So we're trying to navigate like, who answers what, so feel free to like, jump in whenever you to James, if you ever want to jump in? Otherwise, I'm happy to? Oh,

James Gatewood: 6:48

she's definitely the more of the talker on the Yes, yes. I agree with a lot of things. And then I'll chime in from time to time.

Philip Pape: 6:55

That's wisdom. That's wisdom. And you're the quiet wise type, I get it, I get it usually need that, like the tensile workout in the relationship. Okay, so it's interesting, Brittany, because you mentioned, you mentioned the demands that maybe some people don't think about financial time, social events, things like that. And they're probably extreme versions of some of the trade offs we make. Anyway, when we're in, for example, a fat loss phase. But I really want the listener to understand the differences. So maybe let's just outline like the list of some of the physical demands, and the mental demands, from what we think of as a typical fat loss phase where you're in a 500 calorie deficit or something which most people can understand that, you know, you cut out a snack, or you reduce the scale things down, you have some more fiber and nutrient dense foods in there. Maybe a little bit fewer indulgences. And you're good, right? And it's kind of a sustainable thing. You do it for 1216 weeks, you're done. What is this look like? If we want to get shredded? I mean, what is that? First of all, is that like, sub 10%? For a male, like, maybe we should give it some parameters? And then really, what are some of the big physical demands?

Brittany Gatewood: 8:00

Yeah, so you want to talk about

James Gatewood: 8:03

some of the physical stuff. So the physical side effects now

Brittany Gatewood: 8:07

like the the main

James Gatewood: 8:08

demands, yeah, well, like going into a prep situation to get to those sub 10 bodyfat it's like men were men, personally, like getting down to 5% it takes a lot. It's a lot. We're looking at, you know, training, at least, you know, five days of training a week, we're looking at possibly two hours or plus cardio a week a day. Yeah, sorry. Two hours of cardio per day, every day that there are no even all

Philip Pape: 8:40

rest days and define what you mean by current because we're not talking about just walking so steady state

James Gatewood: 8:45

cardio, so you know that that's a walking on an incline at a decent pace, and make spin bike you know, we don't do a lot of times it's not gonna be running a secondary high intensity things, but it's just gonna be time consuming. When it comes to diet, you know, like in the lifestyle sense, like you kind of operate on an 8020 rule, you know, 80% Clean 20% lacks, there's no 8020 You got to be 100% on your diet every single day. You have to hit your water goals 100% Every single day, and there is the end like you're talking about like with the normal fat loss phase, there's gonna be some times when you're uncomfortable, you're gonna feel hunger in a prep going to that little leanness you are always hungry. You will always be hungry when you eat, right after you eat while you're eating you. Your constant state of of hunger and you're fighting your body because your body wants to

Brittany Gatewood: 9:40

power that store fat for famine. Yeah, like

James Gatewood: 9:44

you were purposely starving your body to achieve those single digit body fat. And

Brittany Gatewood: 9:51

to add to that, you know, with like the calorie restriction with a normal lifestyle client, you know, you might restrict like you said like 500 calories. is when you are doing an extreme level of leanness when you're trying to get started for a show, you're hitting levels that you hear all the time, don't eat that little, you know, like, you're gonna lose muscle. Yeah, especially as a female, like more than likely like there are women just starting out bodybuilding, the likelihood of you getting under 1200 calories is extremely high. And most women aren't in a good place calorically when they start competing. So you have that working against you as well, because that, you know, that part is important

Philip Pape: 10:35

to work with you. Yeah. Yeah. And I've heard from, you know, very successful natural bodybuilder men, you know, like, Dr. Eric helms has been on the show a couple times, that even they're using around 15 1800. Like, and they're doing everything right, you know, what I mean? They're, like, have a lot of muscle doing everything right. Does that sound about right? I know, James, you work more with male clients? Or did they get even tighter than that? I mean,

James Gatewood: 10:56

it all comes down to the individual and the how, of course, and how far they're willing to push it, you know, but there's a range, I would say, you know, you tried to balance that out with the activity level. So instead of dropping the food so low, we're gonna increase more cardio, which is why you start getting into those, you know, multiple hours of steady state cardio. It's very unpleasant, but I mean, sometimes that's what it requires to achieve that level of leanness. Yeah, I

Philip Pape: 11:23

think the common refrain is going to be here, and the listeners gotta get this through their head. This is an extreme temporary, like you're going after, it's like a David Goggins type of thing, right? Like, it's exactly your sacrifice, you literally are sacrificing. This isn't just the Oh, you make trade offs and good choices. This is like, you're going all the way, you're probably harming your body in some state. I hate to put it that way. But I mean, you're like temporarily, you know, in an unhealthy state. So I have a whole bunch of questions, but just to keep it organized. What's the typical duration for a prep where you're actually in a deficit? And then what kind of adaptation do we see from the beginning to the end, like when someone starts? And then by the end of it, what does it look like? So

Brittany Gatewood: 12:04

that depends again, on the person, you know, I will speak for me, for example, okay, I am in a prep right now for next year. I am a short person, I have more mass than like a taller, like, I'm just compact, you know, so I tend to hold more body fat, and I bombed my reverse, which we can talk about that are later but you know, I bombed by reverse coming out of the last show. So I put on body fat really quick. Now, because of that my preps have to be longer. Because you don't want to do too much too fast. It has to be a slow, it's a slow burn, you know, like you're losing a little bit of fat each week, with strategic like diet breaks. So I'm looking at 54 plus weeks in this cycle, with some breaks. But you know, an average competitor, like a woman starting out, I have a client currently competing or going to compete in October and her first prep is going to be about 26 weeks by the end of it

Philip Pape: 13:02

turns 26. So half a year. What did you say yours is?

Brittany Gatewood: 13:04

Mine is over a year, a year? Okay. Yeah. The last show that we did, I was in prep for 46 weeks. James is like a 20. Week.

James Gatewood: 13:13

Well, so then even if the 20 week, I'm not even into a calorie deficit until I'm within 16 weeks or so or less. It takes a lot of effort for me to actively keep weight on and to size. So majority of my prep is building up because I shed weight very quickly. So I don't have to die as long as we are the exact opposite. You know, she's having to eat less and less and less. I'm having to eat more and more and more. And that makes married life fun. situation.

Philip Pape: 13:47

It's like Jack sprat you know, like you got two peas on this plate over here and you got like the whole buffet over here. Yeah,

Brittany Gatewood: 13:52

his birthday last prep. Okay, sides sidenote, but he had a birthday in one of our last preps and for his birthday I'm not even kidding you. I made him this like beautiful Suvi seared on the grill. ribeye was two pounds. And I had to sit there and watch him eat this ribeye that I cooked him while I was eating like a whites.

Philip Pape: 14:17

You can even have like some sirloin or so I smelled it. Alright, so yeah, that's a great point on the differences between individuals, men and women size, you know, based on your size, and you've alluded to like you have this improvement season right? We take a periodization that applies to everyone, even if you are going after this goal where you have to spend some time building the muscle and being at this healthier, quote unquote healthier state before you do the slow burn, which as you said was anywhere from 16 to upwards of nine months or more depending on how at the rate you go and how long you need to lose the weight and people listening to that. I mean to put that in perspective. Some people listening might be a chronic yo yo Dieter, that's a different situation. We want to get them out of that. But for those who are familiar with a typical fat loss phase, what are we talking 12 to 16 weeks and you start to get tired of it, like you start to get really tired of it after like week eight to 12 unit, if you're doing things quote unquote, right, in addition to the length and the duration, and we'll get to strategic breaks and all that. What is the metabolic adaptation look like, just because you've lost the mass, your hormones are adapting, like, I don't know, if we can maybe give numbers or percentages or whatever, it doesn't matter. If somebody starts at a, you know, 1800 Calorie metabolism? where might they end up by the end of the diet? Again,

Brittany Gatewood: 15:32

it depends on the person. Me 1100 Easy,

Philip Pape: 15:37

so you don't make sense. So like a 700 college job or something, I'm a

Brittany Gatewood: 15:40

short person anyways. So my calorie intake isn't as high as you know. So you might end up

James Gatewood: 15:49

around real like 2300 Yeah, at the lowest right, leading into it, and then, like, I have a client, now that's also gonna be doing the same show that we're doing now. And currently, I already have him up to, I think it's 2900 calories, and we're gonna always, I'm not just gonna keep increasing that, so. But he has a similar body style as mine, where he can drop away, quit. But we need to build up, you know, so we're gonna spend all this time building up so that when we do cut calories, his calories will never be that low. And he'll be able to drop the weight pretty quickly.

Philip Pape: 16:21

Now, are you unhappy with that ability to drop weight? Quickly? Is this a result of having built muscle mass over time? Or is it a little bit more genetic, like just how you respond, this is

James Gatewood: 16:29

just genetic, I was always very thin, it takes a lot of effort for me to put on sighs like when she can, she can grow his muscle way faster than I do. I mean, I will have to put in, you know, lots of calories, lots of training, and with no mistakes, and then she can just, you know, be in a slight calorie surplus, and she's grown stronger and stronger and stronger. Like, I'm jealous. And in the gaming aspect, because it's hard for me to do that. Right. But then when it comes down to leaning down for a show, she, you know, struggles and then that's where a, you know, does come in handy with my metabolism.

Philip Pape: 17:03

Yeah, it's definitely helps to know this and about yourself, right and track and have that awareness. And I've seen that client of mine, a male client who never had gone through a fat loss phase, it was like, three pounds a week just dropping off with like, very little effort. And you're like, Okay, he's like, should I go? Should I keep going aggressively? I'm like, you feel great. Yeah, I feel okay, then that's, that's telling you right there. And others, it's like, you start to move the needle just a little bit in, you're starving to death. So what about the rate of loss? So here's what I'm curious about. I typically talk about like the point two, five to 1% body weight per week, I don't know if you talk in percent per week, or like percent deficit, where we know like, 50% is like extreme and then like, 10 to 20 is kind of normal. What? What deficit are we looking at in that perspective, and what rate of loss

Brittany Gatewood: 17:46

so we don't do percentages? Okay, we do like we're looking at a pound per week, roughly. So anywhere from a half pound to one pound per week, on average, you know, sometimes it might be more, sometimes I'd be less over the course of the duration. So like, if we look at, you know, the number of weeks that we've been in prep situation, like for fat loss, like, even with like a lifestyle client, this is how we look at it. So it's not really any different in that aspect. You don't want to lose too much fat in one week, or too much weight in one week, you want to retain that muscle mass. And it's the same kind of idea in a prep, because when you get on stage, you're not getting judged by how much you weigh. You're getting judged by your muscle mass, and how that muscle mass is presented on stage. Yeah. So if you lose a bunch of muscle mass, you know, just trying to weigh less in the process, like you're only hurting yourself, for

Philip Pape: 18:45

sure. So that's a good clarification, right? Because if if someone is a lifestyle client, and maybe just wants to do a mini cut, you might go more aggressively because the duration short. But if you're doing this slow burn, you're saying a pound a week, which is usually around 500 calories a day deficit is reasonable. However, it's a long time, right? So that's where it could get tiring. And

Brittany Gatewood: 19:06

you're keeping in mind the metabolic adaptations? Yes, all along the way. And now you're

Philip Pape: 19:10

eating less and less and less. So then how do you break that up and plan for that? Right? If you've got 48 weeks, like you, I'm guessing it's not just completely linear, the whole layout, right? We have some refeeds diet breaks in there.

Brittany Gatewood: 19:21

Yeah. 100%. So I have been cutting now, since April. And April. I'm not afraid to talk about my weight. I was 177. And April, I'm down to 160 On average right now and I lost two months. Yeah. I look at the average, you know, weekly. We're getting ready to go on our honeymoon and a couple of weeks. So we're gonna go to Jamaica. That's my first diabetic congratulations, which was the plan all along was like we're going to Jamaica. I don't want to miss out on anything. I want to try all the food. I want to have fun. We're going to be active anyways. You're always you usually more active than you realize on vacation. So that was the first planned diet break. And then we come back, he's gonna go into a building phase, I'm gonna stay cutting until I start training for completely not the same thing. I'm running a marathon at the end of the year. Okay. Interesting. At that point, I'll go to maintenance. But I'll probably that'll keep increasing just to maintain where I am true, right?

Philip Pape: 20:25

Because you'll be burning so many more calories. Yeah, for that. That's an interesting one. You know, I mean, I definitely did. I've heard some competitors who will do powerlifting and bodybuilding but not often the endurance extreme, like endurance. And I like to defy the odds. I'm sure you'll get it. I'm sure you get it done. And yeah, you'll have that like strength to weight ratio going for you there right with all the muscle and have cut down and wait. Yeah, super fast.

Brittany Gatewood: 20:47

I actually am a lot faster when I'm lean. Like, I've run some races previously, like in prep, I did a 10k. One time, I mean, I've run a lot of races. I was a runner before I did bodybuilding, and I would PR them just because you're leaner, your endurance is better, right? Like you don't have as much body fat holding you down. Yeah,

Philip Pape: 21:07

that makes a lot of sense. So, you know, you mentioned practicality, like your trip and aligning the brakes with that, which is always a great practice. The question I have, and maybe this is for James, because you mentioned the 100%, like, not at 20. But like 100 to zero is gotta be your your adherents, or we use at 20 a lot of different ways, right? One way is just say like 80%, Whole Foods, 20%, whatever you want, or 80%, consistent, you know, 20%, maybe flex less consistent, tell us about the more extreme level of adherence and consistency we need. And then how do you do that?

James Gatewood: 21:41

Oh, so that, for me, in my experience, and what works best for me, you know, some, some clients work better on macros, and they can kind of adjust their foods and things like that. For me, I work and function better, like on a meal plan. So I'm literally eating the same foods, the same portions every single day, you know, in the offseason, or when you know, further out from the shop can be a little more more flexible. We can make substitutions, you know, things like that. But it's the preparation, when it comes to like meals is going to be the key. Because even when you're tracking food, and you're going out and you're ordering food from like certain establishments, and they have the macros listed, and all those things, you're still trusting someone else to do the measuring, you know, you don't know how accurate there really is, you'll know if they went a little heavy on the oil when they made it this time. And, and it's all these little small details that you know, in the end, you may look like hey, I'm hitting all these numbers. Do you know, why am I not progressing? But if you're, you know, you get to eliminate all these factors that could be thrilling. You're playing off. So being very onpoint on nutrition. That's just key. So it's eating home food all the time. For me. It's nothing

Brittany Gatewood: 23:00

that food. Unless you're a man, you have me.

James Gatewood: 23:04

Yes, he does the cooking.

Philip Pape: 23:05

Yeah. So let me let me ask you, when you so when you do go to a restaurant sounds like you occasionally do and again, we're talking. Maybe you could do it more than Brittany can at the level of calories or whatever. How do you? Do you limit? Like what kind of restaurant you choose? Do you look at the restaurant menu ahead of time and like plan out what you're going to eat? Do you bring a like travel scale to the restaurant? Like how neurotic are we because let's use that word you kind of have to be about some of this.

James Gatewood: 23:29

So like in the in the cutting phase, when I'm really in it, there is no eating out. Okay, there's no so if I'm going to eat out if we are going to eat out this when we are having a free meal. So there is no need to weigh or measure it. This is a diet break. This is a refeed meal. This is whatever it is, if it's a mental break meal, you have like you we've been on the ground, you've been eating this specific foods for so long. That's what that is so that you know it's planned out. This isn't just willy nilly. Oh, you know, I don't feel like chicken and rice and green beans today. I'm gonna have a pizza. That doesn't happen. You just can't do that.

Philip Pape: 24:06

Yeah, no, no, it makes sense, do you? When you first set up your entire phase? Looking ahead? How much of a planner Are you? Like, do you say, once a week I want to allow for refeed therefore, I'm going to distribute my calories in a way that does that or do you just adjust your week leading up to like a Saturday? What's your preferred method?

James Gatewood: 24:23

I've done two different ways I've done where their weekly refeeds were, you know, on Saturday and Sunday, my carbs are higher and my fats are lower and I just carb up on the weekends. That's a really unpleasant way to eat on the weekends when your fats are extremely low and you know, then your carbs are high and you're just stuck with more rice and potatoes. Yeah, that kind of thing is more bland. Yeah, yeah, it's more of like looking at the pictures looking at the data looking at how I'm feeling if I'm getting really worn down. It's been seven 810 14 days, you know, typically depending on how what phase it is, you know, not going more than like 14 days without Some type of refeed until you start getting really close, and then you just you just had to grind it out like you are just, you're just gonna grind it until, you know, it's so Tom, pretty much. I

Philip Pape: 25:12

mean, people are listening like, this sounds really exciting. This is what? No, but if you're thinking like, this is what has to get done. Now, because you're a competitor competing in something here, even if you're not competing, right? Even if it's a lifestyle thing that you're trying to get shredded, what about how about any other nonlinear dieting strategies you've used either for yourself or with clients who are prepping, maybe five to modified fast like carb cycling any of those you get into.

Brittany Gatewood: 25:36

So what we honestly like to do is a free meal, because when you do like a structured refeed, like it's still kind of like falling into like guidelines. But when you tell a client like I have a client, that's three weeks out from stepping on stage, it's our second show, she competed in the beginning of May. And she was really close to getting that overall. So we want to like, go a little further. But like with her, you know, I'm looking at her stuff, and I'd like her to have a weekly refeed. But the reality is, she's super close. And that just doesn't happen. But further out, we like to implement like a free meal, here and there just for like a mental break.

James Gatewood: 26:16

And that's a big thing, the mental break. I mean, when you're in there monotonous. Just the same food, the same routine, the same training, the same water amount, the same going to bed at the same time waking up at the same time. I mean, you were a machine, when you're in that everything you do is just repetitive, repetitive and just hitting it, checking off the boxes. So having that little break, where you're like, you know, I've been dreaming about this burger and fries from five guys. Have it, enjoy it, and then keep going. So

Brittany Gatewood: 26:47

while we've been cutting right now, like since you know the last couple months, last three months, whatever we've done, like a weekly refeed because we're so far out or weekly free meal. Excuse me, sorry. So you know that free meal can range from a big ribeye and a big potato to burger and fries. We had pizza one night a couple of weeks ago, and we decided that we weren't going to do that because pizza just is so dense, right? Like our our array will be like, literally mine will be 10 to 15 beats higher like my resting heart rate just from having pizza. So it sticks. It sticks. A burger and fries though we might eat a burger or fries. And our body's like, Yeah, we love this. And then the next day we hit like a new low or something I know I hear Yeah. So it's cool to see how everybody's body responds to different things, too. Yeah. And

Philip Pape: 27:37

so and that's funny because you mentioned skin weight fluctuation, which we talked about all the time as well. What do you track then? And not just like the typical things we would track for lifestyle climb. But what's supremely important for this kind of extreme leanness, and then maybe going along with that is there kind of a spectrum, depending on the individual where so for example, when I spoke to Eric helms last time, he he just became a pro right last year. And he, for the first time, stopped tracking his food. Now he said very clearly like he can only do that after years and years and years of tracking. And like knowing exactly what things look like and how much stuff weighs. And he still uses a food scale. So what do you generally advise people track? And then what does that spectrum look like?

Brittany Gatewood: 28:18

So with food, they're weighing everything, they're tracking everything, especially like, our clients are doing macros. So we want them to have a little bit of flexibility in their food choices. I don't want to tell them, Okay, you're eating chicken, brown, Turkey and tilapia. Those are your three proteins, that's what you're eating, I want them to have the flexibility so that they can make choices. And then when we get like a couple of weeks out, we really clean it up and we simplify it and we will do like a meal plan. You know, based on the proteins that they prefer, they have to be lean, they can't be fatty proteins. We're talking white fish, shrimp, chicken breast, and maybe 97 or 99 lean ground turkey like if they are stomach tolerates it because it does make some people gassy.

Philip Pape: 29:06

Dry. I know it's yes. Well, let me stop you there though the meal plan a couple of weeks out. So I'm assuming a client like this has some experience over kind of a typical client? Do they help construct that themselves? Or are you just like telling them? Is it based on what they've already been eating? Yeah. So

Brittany Gatewood: 29:23

usually the client wants us to do they don't want to think at that point. You're so one thing about PrEP is like you get really drains your mental capacity, like you have a permanent brain fog until like six weeks after the show. So you know having like you telling the client, this is it. You got two weeks on this, like finish this strong. Peak week, you know is another ballgame. You start increasing carbs and filling the client back out so that they're not flat on stage. So it's really easy for them to be like, Okay, we've reached that endpoint. This is Showtime here and it's easier for them to flow guess on that for like two weeks versus the whole time.

Unknown: 30:04

Make sense. My name is Tony, I'm a strength lifter in my 40s. Thank you to Phil and his Whitson weights community for helping me learn more about nutrition and how to implement better ideas into my strength training. Phil has a very, very good understanding of macros, and chemical compounds and hormones and all that. And he's continuously learning. And that's what I like about Phil, he's got a great sense of humor, he's very relaxed, very easy to talk to. One of the greatest things about Phil, in my view is that he practices what he preaches, he also works out with barbells, he trains heavy, not as heavy as me, but he trains heavy. So if you talked with him about getting in better shape, eating better, he's probably going to give you some good advice. And I would strongly recommend you talk with him, and they'll help you out.

Philip Pape: 30:47

And so let's segue off of the brain fog comment, because now we want to talk about the symptoms you get when you get at that low level of body fat for women and men, because obviously different hormonal situation going on and different levels of fat you start with and so on. So, maybe Brittany start on the female side and talk about all the symptoms we get. And this is the cost of leanness.

Brittany Gatewood: 31:08

All right. So obviously, hunger is going to be number one, even in a regular deficit, like when you're just trying to lose fat for life, hunger is a normal part, it's a side effect of fat loss, like that is your body trying to tell you we don't like this fetus, we have amenorrhea, which is the absence of your period, if you get amenorrhea that is a sign that your hormones are jacked up, also a sign your thyroid will probably not function as well, because you're not getting the energy that it needs to function. Well, immune system, you're getting sick a lot. If there's a sickness going around, you can pretty much count that you're gonna get it. Like you can almost bet on it, that you're gonna get it. bowel movements become less frequent, you know, you might get lucky to have one a day maybe if you're lucky. But you know, less food in less food out. Sleep gets impacted sex drive tanks, you might even like as a female have issues like down there like dryness, things like that extreme pain during intercourse because of that, like there are a lot of physical symptoms, you know, from the hormonal disruption is what it is. It's your hormones get jacked out from this extreme level of leanness and long term dieting. Yeah.

James Gatewood: 32:32

And as like for the men, I mean, of course, all the hunger and your thyroid and all those things, your testosterone, if they're a natural athlete or natural competitor, your testosterone is going to be tanked. You're gonna know sex drive, you're gonna feel horrible energy level, your, your hunger hormones are going to be jacked up. So even when you come out of the show, you're gonna always feel hungry. And then there's no nothing telling you when you're full. So a common thing that and you know, this happened to a friend of mine, we did a show together and come out of the show. And in one week, he gained 40 pounds. He just blew up like a balloon, you know, and it's just because he was just uncontrollable eating on control eating. Of course, he was I hadn't had carbs in months, because they were like doing the extreme diet, get trying to get him ready. And his bike no longer knew what to do with all you know, was sugar and carbs like that. So he just just started like crazy and blew up like a balloon. I personally, after one of my shows, you know, every time I would eat carbs, like I would instantly want to fall asleep. I was having like some insulin issues. I mean, this was crazy. I mean, I could not eat and then get in my truck to drive. Because I was going to fall asleep. As I was driving like I went to, I got a little Is it 5% or a little bit lower around 5% body fat, which is very strange. My first show and my body was jacked up. It took me probably six months to feel better. Sleep apnea, sleep apnea. Snoring,

Brittany Gatewood: 34:05

that is a huge side effect for men and bodybuilding. Let me tell you, yeah, which

James Gatewood: 34:10

ended up causing problems in, you know, at home, because now she can't sleep. And I'm affecting her life, like it was. And then I couldn't, I didn't know I was doing it. People don't know when it's happening. It happens with some of my clients, and then we have to make adjustments, but your body goes through a lot when you go to get that lien.

Philip Pape: 34:30

So given all that very, very long list of 60,000 Other questions, why do it? Why would you do this? And that's rhetorical, but like, How does someone answer that? Now they know and they're fully informed. Why would you do this? Because

Brittany Gatewood: 34:45

you're doing something that most of the population can't do. Cool. It's good answer. Yeah. It's a huge accomplishment. It's proving to yourself that I can do hard things if you can push your body and push yourself and your mind because there's a lot of mental illness as well, to follow the plan and stick to your goal and accomplish that goal. Even if you don't win, you still got on stage and you're still doing something that 99% of the population can't do. It's just showing that you're capable of great things.

James Gatewood: 35:17

And for me, like being on stage like I have, I don't care about being on stage, I don't have this like, look at me he kind of like I don't it's it has nothing to do with like the outcome in the in the stage was, it's all about the challenge for me. And when I first did, my first show was like, what in my entire life? Have I dedicated 100% of everything that I do into one thing for an extended period of time? Like, what is possible? What could I do it for like six months, everything I eat everything I drink, how I sleep, how I work out how I limit certain things. I didn't even watch TV for six months, my first show, like I cut out TV, like I was in the zone. And you come out the other side, and you're like, wow, I was able to do this. What else can I do in my life? Not just in fitness. But like, maybe in your career, you know, and just other avenues of your life. You come out the other side? Much stronger. Yeah.

Philip Pape: 36:13

And somebody hearing that myself included? Here's all in there, like, yeah, like, I'll take all that. And of course, once you get in it, no, but I do like value based schools like that, right? Because then you can break them back down to these action based things that you're doing to get there. And so that leads me to next question, where should you be before you even consider this? Both? I guess mentally in lifestyle wise, right, like, what should you already have taken care of? And then you're ready. And also even leanness like, I can't imagine somebody who's you know, excessively overweight, would be like, wanna go from that to shredded in one phase is going to take multiple phases, and potentially years depending on where you're starting from. So what are your thoughts on that?

Brittany Gatewood: 36:53

So I think that a person should have a solid foundation of lifting. Because prep is not the time to learn how to lift like you need to have a solid muscle base. You know, we talked about newbie gains and stuff and coaching and you should be out of that phase like you should be already have embraced that have a solid base of muscle, a lot of experience lifting, and a consistent routine in the gym. Because if you're going from nothing to now you're going to prep like that's a lot to handle. And you have to manage that new routine with your life as well. And if your life has any stresses, if you're struggling in your relationship or your marriage, don't prep because it's just going to make it worse and you might even end up single, because prep is a lot for a spouse or a partner that's not prepping and doesn't understand the process. Also, you know, finances we talked about that should be in a good place, your calories need to be in a very good place because you don't want to start prepping for something extreme and you're already in an extreme calorie deficit like you should actually be coming off of a maintenance or even a growth phase coming into prep. So yo yo dieting you know, I see a lot of women they want to compete just for the sake of it, but they have a terrible history with yo yo dieting. And you know I understand wanting to accomplish this goal for yourself, but it's probably not best long term for your mental health it's going to heighten a lot of issues that you may have with yourself body dysmorphia, even eating disorders, disordered eating habits, things like that it can like amplify that. So being in a good place all around not having any of those issues in my opinion is really important. You

James Gatewood: 38:38

know, I think if somebody's looking to do this speaking with a coach that has the knowledge on this is going to be very helpful and give you some realistic expectations on maybe like how long they're going you're going to have to stick with this to achieve the look that you're going for. Also like she was saying you know you need some experience already lifting because majority of people overestimate how much muscle they have you know that they overestimate the muscle and underestimate their fat so I was guilty of this myself you know and I thought all I have to do is get my get about this way now shredded and I'll be ready on stage I will kill it. Well, it was about 30 more pounds I had to lose than what it initially thought in my head for me to get to that level. And for somebody that's a hard gainer that was very thin his whole life to get to those really low numbers. It was a mental battle and it still is I had to keep myself in check because intentionally getting thinner goes against what like I've been working so hard to do like I want to be you know I like I like feeling stronger. I like being bigger but this is doing the exact opposite it's making myself smaller so you don't call without your shirt on like that does but when you're you have your shirt on, people just like maybe don't even know you lift nice if you once you get that lift once you get that lane you know Like, there's just a cost of it,

Philip Pape: 40:02

that's actually a really great point for all the especially for the male lifters listening because we talk about those two extremes. And, you know, you get made fun of for, like wanting to lose too much weight and you know, be skinny and be like, you know, people may say, Oh, I'm not gonna cut with you, I'm gonna be big and strong, you know, with my shirt off on half the traps and everything. And we have to recognize that because when we, when Brittany mentioned body dysmorphia, and eating disorders, and all that all of these things play into that if you're not in a mentally healthy state, and I know I used to be just like skinny fat, and I haven't been lifting that long, maybe three or four years. So I don't have much muscle. But I do know that trying to get to what you said a certain level of leanness puts me back into the scale weight, I was way back when before I started lifting as skinny fat and then I'm like you get insecurities about what that's going to do to you, you know, is are all my muscles going to waste away and things like that. So these are all really great points. And the mental sides got to be huge. And Brittany, like you said with these, if you haven't taken care of these other issues, take care of them. But you also mentioned having a coach. And of course, as coaches, we're always going to talk about how how helpful it is to have a coach and reach out for help. But it sounds like this is the kind of situation where it's almost a requirement. Like if you haven't been through it, you have to because it's so extreme and regimented. You know, it'd be like a football player not having a coach for the team, you know, just going out there, what do you do so, just want to mention that some folks, you know, ask for help and make sure you're in the right place before you do this. What else?

Brittany Gatewood: 41:26

I think an important thing to add is also like we're talking about extreme leanness and competing and things like that, and understanding that there is a natural side, but there's also an enhanced side as well. And as an athlete, like if you're going to compete, you need to understand like, if you're competing, right, and you decide to stay a natural athlete, then you need to look for leagues that are a natural league to start off with because there are a lot of competitors using performance enhancing drugs. And you know, that will impact like their experience versus your experience to as a natural athlete.

Philip Pape: 42:06

What's so like the WNBA F right and I don't know what OCB.

Brittany Gatewood: 42:11

He is one that we like how our clients and iocb they do like a polygraph test, which I don't really understand the polygraph test because it's like a controversial thing. But if they win a pro card, they also get your analysis, right, if after they step off stage, like they don't get like there's somebody there to escort them to pee in a cup. Sure,

Philip Pape: 42:33

that's an important distinction. Now, okay, so what about long term? First of all, are there any health risks of doing this? Because, you know, like we said, it's a challenge. It's an accomplishment. You know, in the short term, you've got all these scary symptoms. Are there any do we know of any long term risks to doing this? Or is this one of those situations where when you recover, you're probably okay. Usually,

Brittany Gatewood: 42:54

when you recover, you're okay. Now that's going to be different from person to person. It doesn't just happen like that. bloodwork is an important part of prep. So that's something else that you need to understand you need to get your blood work done. So you know, what needs to improve. Personally, after my last show, my thyroid was jacked up, my cholesterol was jacked up, like coming out. So you know, you need to stay on top of bloodwork so that you know what changes you need to make. My blood work was messed up like cholesterol wise, because when I came out of the show, I just didn't do the best job reversing. So I went from one extreme to eating whatever I wanted. And that was the result of that the thyroid was an issue of extreme fatigue for you know, 46 weeks.

Philip Pape: 43:43

Yeah, and we know that's the regulator of your metabolism. So it just compounds everything exactly. What about so getting blood work, getting your health monitored, really important? It sounds like having the before and after monitoring your biofeedback, maybe in real life, like tell us about a client you've helped do all this in like a healthy, I'll call it a healthy way, right? Like there's limits, obviously, because you're making all these sacrifices and trade off. But they achieved a lean physique. And then we also want to know what comes afterward, right? Because you're not walking around at this like extreme vascularity. Forever. Just tell us about maybe real life situation. Okay,

Brittany Gatewood: 44:16

I'll talk about my client, Jessie. She's also like, she don't care if I say her name. She's also one of our assistant coaches. She was a client long before she became a coach with us. But after her first show, I knew that she needed to put on more muscle mass. She hadn't been lifting too long. So I knew she needed a really good building phase. She's a natural bikini athlete. She just needed more muscle mass. So we went into a building phase. Immediately after the show. Our stage weight was 119 and I think we got up to 140. In the post like the offseason, she put on some good muscle May when she competed last month she won first place in her Navas class out of five. And then in her open class, which is the one where she could go on to compete for her pro card, she came in second. And it was just some little things to tweak. Because of the work she did in the offseason, her prep this time went better, she was able to do less cardio, her calories were higher. So like the prep for that in the offseason helped her be a better athlete the second time around.

Philip Pape: 45:25

And that's a great point of like, you're not necessarily looking to quote unquote, win right the first time out, you're trying to do your best and see how it comes out. And even that's a source of data, right source of information. Okay, now, what do we do next time. And just real quick, since we didn't really talk about it today, it's not really part of the cost of leanness. But what are some of the things that people have to do for the show itself. And I know this can be a whole episode, but like, one or two of the big things that people will also need to think about as maybe it's a cost or just a thing that you have to learn or know.

Brittany Gatewood: 45:54

Okay, a cos, like in terms of the

Philip Pape: 45:58

posing and the tanning the all that kind of stuff. Yeah, there you go.

Brittany Gatewood: 46:02

For women the suit, okay, if you're gonna buy your suit, you can expect to spend on a quality suit anywhere from $600 over 1000 Easy, I have two suits, they both were around$800. So I mean, suits are expensive. The tan, as a woman, you know, hair and makeup, I'm not, I'm makeup challenge. So I can't do my own stage makeup, I always pay for it, my hair, I just wear straight. But tan is a big thing, like you have to get a tan, it's not an option, you have to have that tan. Guys,

James Gatewood: 46:40

Oh, does don't have to wear so much. So you just have yellow trunks on, depending on which category you're competing in. But you know, you do have your tam big cost. So you need to consider is a hotel room, travel, hotel room and supplements. Because even if you live locally, right? To start preparing for the show to get your tan and things like that, like her makeup would start at like 3am. So like, of course we'd be in the hotels, you know, it just gives up goes and you know, has that taken care of because in our shows, they start early in the morning. And then you also have to go back later in the evening for the final. So having a place that where you can go lay down and relax until so the cost of the coach, the cost of supplements, the cost of food, all these things add up. I mean, it adds up very quickly. And to do so other than that, I mean, depending on what Federation you're you're in, you're gonna have to buy a card, like you're on the register. So for the NPC, I had to register with the NPC, and then at the show, how many classes do you want to do? It's$150 per class, or $50. So I did three of them. So those 450 plus another 100 Plus hotel plus travel and gas and food and it adds

Philip Pape: 48:00

you got no I want people to know, you know, it's an investment. It's a

Brittany Gatewood: 48:03

very expensive hobby for those who don't have intentions to like go pro, which it's not that easy to go pro and make money off of it. So it's a hobby until you get to that point, you know, for

Philip Pape: 48:15

sure. Yeah. And honestly, this episode, we've kind of covered all the things that would hopefully scare someone away who really doesn't want or it's a filter for like, I'm willing to do it. Right. Yeah, that's, that's good. So I'm just going to send on this episode of the future. Say I want to compete. Alright, so I do like to ask this question of all guests before we wrap up. And that is what one question Did you wish I had asked? And what is your answer?

James Gatewood: 48:40

Oh, gosh, I don't know.

Brittany Gatewood: 48:42

You know, I have nothing. Last week, we talked about things that we had planned on talking about. Yeah,

Philip Pape: 48:53

I think so. I think so I just like to give you the chance case, there's Yeah, it's like, oh, no, we got to cover this. No, it's all good. Let's, let's connect people with you. Because this has been a lot of fun. Talking about this. We've never really covered this topic in depth. So this is like the seminal episode about this with Brittany and James, where can listeners learn more about you and your work.

Brittany Gatewood: 49:11

So you can learn more about us on our website, www dot transform with phoenix.com. You scroll on down to the bottom, you can get a free meal prep guide. It's a 23 page ebook that we created. It'll help you create awesome meal prep bowl combinations. So you don't just have to eat chicken, broccoli and rice. There are some macro cheat sheets in the back of it. So it's a good resource, and our podcasts macros mindset of muscles.

Philip Pape: 49:36

Awesome. Yeah, I'm gonna include those in the show notes, absolutely transform with phoenix.com. Get your free meal prep guide, whether it's for your prep or just for everyday lifestyle, right and then check out the podcast. I think you're gonna love it and I'm gonna be on there as well. So you know, follow both catch the new episodes, and we'll see you guys on the other side. Thank you so much, Brittany and James for coming on the show. Thanks for having me