Charting the Course of Hip Hop History and Its Soulful Impact with Joe "The Butcher" Nicolo from Ruffhouse Records

My latest sit-down with Joseph Nicolo aka Joe The Butcher owner of Ruffhouse Records -Studio 4 isn't just a nostalgic trip through the golden years of hip-hop; it's a revelation of the roots that keep this genre grounded and growing. With a fresh Cypress Hill homage inked on his skin, Joe takes us through his melody-rich journey that twines around the greats—from the soulful Stevie Wonder to the timeless Beatles. We're not just talking beats and bars; we're uncovering the sheer grit of Philly's rap scene and how Joe Nicolo's attic-born productions ascended to Grammy-winning heights alongside Philly legends like Jazzy Jeff and the Fresh Prince.

Half a century of hip-hop has given us stories that could fill volumes, and here, we crack open the tome to some pivotal chapters. Remember when Kriss Kross had us all jumping? That era wasn't just about the tracks; it was a cultural upheaval that still echoes today. From the sharp insight that turned the Fugees' "The Score" into a monumental album to the ripples of Lauryn Hill's voice that have soothed souls across the globe, this conversation is a testament to the enduring craft and the undeniable impact these artists have left on both music and our personal lives.

But our episode transcends the rhythm and the rhyme, touching on a topic that resonates on a different frequency: mental health. We spotlight the Sound Mind Network's mission to harness the harmonies for healing, illustrating music's profound role in confronting drug abuse, mental health challenges, trauma, and suicide. It's an episode that connects the dots between beats, business, and the betterment of our souls.

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:01

Yeah, so once again I'm DJ swag 100, part of the worldwide fleet. Djs represent the Philadelphia chapter, pennsylvania, owner swag 100 podcast. Swag 100 FM radio station. So pleasure to have you here today when our goal pops interviews.

Speaker 2: 0:21

The pleasure is all mine. I'm glad we finally got a chance to hook up. First and foremost, I'm going to show you my latest tattoo, which is the original Cyprus. It's funny because it's like I mean. I mean, I'm on old head and, like my two biggest influences when I was a kid in music was Stevie Wonder, songs in the key of life and the Beatles. They were the reasons why I got into this business. So, since Stevie Wonder doesn't have a logo, I got the Beatles on this arm and I got one of one of my. You know one of the favorite things that I did in my career Cyprus Hill on this arm. So I'm not, but that's it. I'm not. I think I'm done with the Tats for a while, but I just have to share that with you, since I just got this one, like last.

Speaker 1: 1:21

Yeah, man, that's, that's awesome. And you know Cyprus Hill man. They contributed a lot to hip hop and you know he was a part of that legacy.

Speaker 2: 1:31

You know and I mean, I still have mad love for the Philly rap scene, because if it wasn't for the Philly rap scene I would have not been able to discover Cyprus Hill, you know. But I'm sure we will. We'll get into whatever it is you want to talk about.

Speaker 1: 1:50

Yeah, definitely, definitely for sure. So, you know, I'm I'm very honored because you know, when I do research there's not a lot of interviews of you out there. So I'm humbly grateful that you took your time to do this with me, you know because it's not that I'm a recluse, I just I don't know, I don't.

Speaker 2: 2:11

I just do what I do and I let my music and my experience speak for itself. I have a twin brother and I have the old partner, chris Schwartz, in rough house and so many people was like damn man, is your brother still alive? I mean, you know he, just we never see him. I mean it just. It's just how I deal with reality. You know what I mean, it's just, but I'm happy to you know, talk about, talk about old times before it wears off, and drop some science.

Speaker 1: 2:43

Right, right, right right. I wanted to start off. You know, talk about you know at the time of you getting into music, because this is 50 years of hip hop and you've worked with a lot of these people who have got declarations and honors and things of that nature, you know for 50 years of hip hop. So put us on the scene. You know how you actually started and what led you to get in the game and who was the first person that you may have created or done work with. You know whether it was engineering, pushing them, shopping them or discovering them. You know. Can you break that down for us?

Speaker 2: 3:26

Sure, I've always wanted to be a producer and engineer. I was never. I was never an artist and I, like I said, I have a twin brother who also owns Studio 4 with me and we started recording people in my parents attic, you know, like in the early 70s. As a matter of fact, the first person I ever recorded 47 years ago is I am recording him tomorrow, believe it or not, because he's recorded at every studio I've ever had. Okay, so so it. Some shit just comes full circle. So I've done so, I did that. And then we, we, we opened a studio out in Radner, pa, and we had that for a couple of years and then we moved to Center City. We started Studio 4 about 1980. And then we moved that to Center City and you know, we, we were, we were, we were, we were. We became one of the best studios in Philly. We recorded a lot of local bands, did some of the, some of the outskirt, like the, the end of kind of like the Philly and international era, and a lot of the, a lot of the session players and guys like that. But it wasn't. It was probably I mean what?

Speaker 2: 4:54

Where I really got my start in rap was with Lawrence and Dana Goodman of Pop Art and so, lawrence, they had a label and the first thing I do remember I remember recording for them was probably Roxanne Chante, but they also had Marley Marl and they had Biz Markey, but Roxanne's revenge was probably the first record that I remember that started to make some noise with with Lawrence and Dana and I just became their, I just became their engineer and I became the spot where they recorded all the time that brought in all the pop art stuff which was Steady B, cool C and, of course, jazzy Jeff and the Fresh Prince and about it, about the same time I started working with the, as he is known as the OG Schoolie D. And where's that record? It's around here somewhere. Anyway, here it is. But it was really this record, the original school ID, which had Gucci Time and PSK, that.

Speaker 2: 6:23

Really it established me in the underground, probably more so than the steady me, cool C records. But this is what, even to this day, people are like man, that school ID shit was. That was like that was the original gangster shit, you know. Yeah, then we did Saturday night and, it's funny, all those acts got signed to Jive Records through Barry Weiss, but it was Jazzy Jeff and the Fresh Prince, and because it won the first rap Grammy, that really I mean that put me much more on the national scene once that record hit, because it was just, you know, it was the first gold record I ever had.

Speaker 1: 7:14

How was that feeling? Knowing that you know you and your brothers, you started in an attic to get to the studios, to getting those national looks and, you know, working with the earlier record labels like Philly International and Raphals, et cetera, et cetera.

Speaker 2: 7:31

I mean it was great. I mean you gotta, no one else is gonna think you're good unless you think you're good, right, and I thought, I thought I was really fucking good. So I mean again, I just thought, you know, I'm really good at this shit, you know. So it was great, it was rewarding to feel like I wasn't wrong, cause a lot of times, you know, there's a lot of people who strive for stuff. And it's funny, cause I respect and appreciate people who say don't give up, don't give up, you never know. It's like, just keep, you know, just keep trying, don't give up. But when do you? You have to come.

Speaker 2: 8:22

But if you don't have it, whatever it is whether you want to be a rapper, basketball player, an attorney, and you ain't got it You've got people around you saying, no man, don't give up, don't give up, and you should have given up. That person is going to waste their life. So I just have a real mixed emotion about that, and it's you know. And yet, at the same time, I have a saying making it in this business, in the music business, isn't difficult. It's fucking impossible. Okay, so it's like, well, but you can't. You know so, but you're contradicting yourself. You're saying it's impossible, but don't give up. But what if you ain't got it? What if you ain't got it Right?

Speaker 1: 9:14

You know, then take it. You want to look yourself in the eyes and come to terms with it.

Speaker 2: 9:18

And maybe maybe you're not a rapper, maybe you're a writer, maybe you're a great engineer, maybe you're good at designing lights for live shows, maybe you're a good salesperson. You know you have to sometimes you may have you have to open your horizons to see what, what are you good at? Okay, and it can't just be your mom and your sister that says you're good, okay, you got. You know what I mean, right, so, but I don't know why I went off on that tangent. But you know, I felt like I was good enough and I was rewarded with I was good enough.

Speaker 1: 9:58

Right, right, I mean, these years later, you can see that you was good enough and you're still good enough, cause it's still people that's sampling and they're, they're, they're trying to recreate and you know, they're using it as a foundation to make new music, you know. So, you, you, you definitely stapled yourself, you know, in a game, not just in rap or hip hop itself, but in other genres as well. Are there any hidden talents that people may not know about you? Like, you actually played a piano or you played a violin. You can skate, you know I.

Speaker 2: 10:38

I make a mean hot sauce. Joe, the butcher's hot sauce is the bomb. Okay, so I make a mean hot sauce and I'm a good father and husband. I mean, I try to be a good person. You know what I mean. But a lot of people in this business are kind of two dimensional. I can't say I'm not, but I'm what. We're so driven by by what we do that we put so much passion into it. Sometimes there isn't a lot of time for anything else besides, like you know, friends and family, right, right, yeah, I wish I was you know, and you're still moving along right here today to these, to these days.

Speaker 1: 11:22

So could you give us you know when we speaking about and I do want to stick on a rap scene when we speaking about 50 years of hip hop right, I think we can go on and on and on with you know people that you and your brother had have touched, you know the crisscross is the learn hills, the roots and the commons and etc. Etc. So, out of 50 years of this genre, you know, being around, what is a highlight for you, whether you was involved in it or not? What is a highlight for you that you'll never forget, that you probably would want to share with everyone?

Speaker 2: 11:59

Um, there, there was. I mean there's. It's hard for me to pick one crazy roller coaster ride, and that's how it. You know it's like the first roller coaster ride was was Cypress Hill, and it's going up, and it's going up and it's. It didn't just become a hit, it became a phenomenon, okay. And now now you're going down the other side and you're, you're flailing your arms and you're just like oh, oh man, this is unbelievable. And then that roller coaster ride kinds of comes to a stop and then you get on the crisscross ride and that's it, the crisscross, the whole crisscross jump situate. That was it's still to this day one of the biggest records ever.

Speaker 2: 12:50

Hey man, that was one of my favorite tracks coming up Um and I can tell you the day, the day when it went from zero to 100 was when they were on in living color. I don't know if you, if you people, are old and remembered the show and living costs. They were on. They were on that that Sunday night. And then the next day, man, everybody was jumping on the record and I it just you heard it on the radio just day and night, right. So then there was that craziness, you know. Then, then then there was the Fuji's, you know, and the first Fuji record lunted on reality, it really didn't do that well, okay, it did, it did about 119,000 copies, and back then that really wasn't anything. But they had just started breaking at the end of that record with like nappy heads and Fuji law, so you know. So it was just beginning to happen and the record was done.

Speaker 2: 13:58

And uh, sony, where rough house was distributed by Sony. And then they were like, well, you're not going to do, you're not, you're going to drop the Fuji's, you're not going to do another Fuji record. And it's like what? No man, they just started hitting. Of course, we want to do another Fuji record, right, and that became the score. And uh, and that's the first video that I've ever done. And that's the first video that I've ever done, and it's like you know, it's like you know you're killing me softly, ready or not. I mean, you know the ready or not video was one of the first videos that cost over a million dollars to make. Wow, and we're you know, we're talking like 1995. Yes, and it's like do I pick what child in my past Do I like the best? I mean, and then, after the Fuji's, of course, uh, wyclef, carnival, but then Miseducation of Lauren Hill.

Speaker 1: 15:05

Yeah, lauren Hill man.

Speaker 2: 15:06

Yeah, I mean of all the, of all the records, that, that, that, and it's not even like everything is a personal taste, right, I mean, personally, I like listen. I, you know, I wouldn't, I won't mind, like you know, listening to, uh, the first Cypress Hill record, because that's my, that's my shit. Okay, but I can't deny how influential the Lauren Hill record was and how influential it was to so many people who would come to, who, to this day, say you don't know, that record got me through a hard time, man, okay, I was, I was feeling desperate and that record got me through, okay. So if you want to talk about the importance of of how records and music can influence people, it has to be the Miseducation of Lauren Hill. Yes, just because of the influence that it had on people, and it's one of the top records of all time. Yes, yeah. So I don't know if I answered your question, but I think I did.

Speaker 1: 16:16

You really did, because you took us on your journey. You took us on on on your, on your, your up and down on a on a coast. And once again, I mean Chris Cross, foogey's, lauren Hill, wildclaw, cypress Hill. These are all people that still people took today and that can relate to the timeframe when these records came out. There's, it's still playing, is still being pumped and it'll never go nowhere. You know, there's timeless timeless pieces, timeless timeless singles and timeless projects. You know, what do you think was one of the biggest things that you had to overcome during your journey?

Speaker 2: 17:06

Well, I'd have to say early on, when we were a struggling recording studio just trying to make a living, there were a lot of years where you just that was a struggle, that was a fight to try to keep building up your rep, trying to get people to come to record. It was funny because it was that when I realized owning a recording studio and providing studio time at a rate wasn't going to put my kids through college, but owning a piece of the Fuji's or owning a piece of Cypress Hill or a piece of the Lauryn Hill record, that's where the money was and that's why I flipped into mid-80s, starting Rough House and becoming a record company that had a recording studio. That's when everything just totally clicked.

Speaker 1: 18:09

Right and today, right now, when people think of Philadelphia and they think about the music scene, they think about Gamble on Huff, they think about the Philadelphia Philly International, they think about Rough House, which is now Rough Nation. So, building this as a record company, what were some of the key things that you knew? That was going to be able to allow you all to facilitate and distribute artists throughout your studio and, like you said, have a piece of the music that you all was creating. What a group.

Speaker 2: 18:52

I mean it's a fusion of two things. It's a fusion of incredible talent and an infusion of dumb shit luck. Okay, I use the colorful language, but it's cable, it's pod, right, it's how I talk with the fun. So you know, and it's just kind of like they just all, all the shit happened at the right place at the right time. I use the dumb shit luck phrase a lot.

Speaker 2: 19:33

I'm sure you know who Billy Joel is. Yes, okay, I produced Billy Joel River of Dreams, which was his last big record, which was 1993. And when I was working with Billy, he would a lot of times he'd say man, dude, we are really good at what we do, really good. Okay, but you and I both know it's dumb shit luck. Okay, right place at the right time, the shit just happened. There is somebody driving a UPS truck right now who can sing and write better than me, and you combined, we just had, we just, you know, right place at the right time. We're town with it, but it's so much of it is just, you know, being at the right place at the right time.

Speaker 1: 20:19

So you know we go through the rough, you know we went through, you know the upcoming and some of the ups and downs and things of that nature. I do want the people to know that you still, of course, you're still in the industry, you're still doing your thing. But you know I did hear that you had a new label that you're you're formulating and you know you're pushing the mental health awareness. You know, and I definitely would love for you to elaborate on that so people can start tapping into that now and get familiar with, with the movement.

Speaker 2: 20:53

Yeah, it's pretty much what I'm spending a lot of time with now. People in Philly especially if you go to the Phillies or the Sixers games know who Tony Luke's is. Tony Luke's is the Chief State King, right. And about five years ago Tony lost his son to a heroin overdose. And I've known Tony for a long time and he I knew him as Tony Lucidonio, who wrote, was signed to Island Records and wrote songs. So Tony hit me up and said you know, I just want to die. I just I have no interest in doing anything and I want to express my sorrow by making a record.

Speaker 2: 21:38

So we did, we made an album and while we were making it we realized how therapeutic and how important music is for mental health, trauma and people and people with issues. So we started a foundation called the Sound Mind Network and basically our mission statement is to change the way the world looks at drug abuse, mental health, trauma and suicide through music and the arts, and that's basically what we've started to do. We have an album coming out this month. It's a compilation. It's got it's got all kinds of people on it that that's going to be coming out at the end of the month. So we can see it. It's called Healing Through the Arts. It's got Kathy Sledge a sister Sledge on it. It's got Taj Mahal. It's got Sophie B Hawkins, cindy Lauper, joe Osborne, the Bacon Brothers, kevin Kevin and Michael. Kevin Bacon is one of our spokespeople and this record comes out at the end of this month with all proceeds going to the Sound Mind Network.

Speaker 2: 23:00

And I started a label called SMN Records and basically we're just going to continue to focus music. It doesn't have to be necessarily music with a positive message, because that, that, that that whole positive music kind of connotation people just kind of steer away from. We do. We want to keep music, we want to keep it real, but we do want to give people a feeling of of a positive attitude. Like I keep pointing over to the message. The record for the platinum for Lauren Hills over there as one point, right, right, right, but that's a. That's a great example of a record, that that she kept it real.

Speaker 1: 23:44

I mean that shit was great, it was it was tasteful, so, so full in it was. I believe that good music is music that you're not, because a lot of people do make music for themselves, you know, but I believe, when you're making music for the people and that's the consumers, the listeners from every corner of the earth when you make it for them, and I feel like that's that, that that project with a miseducation, I feel like that was that type of project, whereas though it was me for the people, you know.

Speaker 2: 24:18

And we, we, we have a lot of benefactors. We have a company that's that's called make it with clay. They, they have therapy through making things. Kevin Bacon's foundation, six degrees. There's another one, another foundation called rock to the future. They, they basically give lessons and a place to record and place to rehearse, to disadvantage kids in the inner city. And we're going to next year we're going to have a contest. Basically, smn records is distributed to Virgin. That's our distributor and we're going to have a contest and the winner of the contest wins a single on SMN records. We're going to have a, you know, a good panel of people deciding and then the 10 finalists. I'll mix and finish producing the 10 songs in the finalist category. Right, it's for a donation. I mean basically to to apply. It's going to cost 20 bucks to apply, but all that money goes to help the foundation. So you're, you know, you're just, you're basically donating 20 bucks and and with any luck, you know, you'll win a spot on the label.

Speaker 1: 25:41

Definitely I do. I do want to mention this. I just feel it deep in my heart. Look up, look out for this girl. She's from Pottstown, beautiful, uh, blonde hair. She got two, two color eyes. It's gray and green. Her name is Bay B A E. I'm going to write it down yes, b A E music. All her music is about she. She's a mental health advocate, so she's already in that one. She's pushing it. And, um, she came to a couple. She's a pop artist, you know, but she does try to hop in different genres but she done a couple of showcases of minds and when it comes to mental health awareness and I see that you're pushing it I feel like that's somebody that might be.

Speaker 2: 26:26

Yeah, make sure you give me her contact information, because that she's exactly the person that we would like to contact, um, and she could also. Well, we also we're starting next year, uh, a division called music matters. What music matters is? Um, it's basically one division, is all different, all different musicians who will go out, and it could be a prison. It could, it could be a halfway house. It could be at Jefferson hospital where we want to bring the gift of music and and the you know we want basically want to bring the gift of music to people who don't have it. It could, it could be as a senior citizen play and whatever, um, and it could. It could be one person with a piano or a guitar, or it could be an entire band, um, and we're we're starting that up at the beginning of next year and it's it's, it's going to be called music matters and we're also going to have, uh, uh, certified therapists to go to also have another division of music matters. So we're going to that's something we're starting up next year.

Speaker 1: 27:38

Oh yeah, that sounds awesome. You know, um, it's always good to know that. You know people that's really high up in the industry and and and doing things on an elite level was still coming down and putting things back out to the community and making ways for um, the less privileged, the people who have the less privilege, or the ones that has disabilities and probably get overlooked. It's always great to know that there are systems and programs that doesn't count them out. You're exactly right.

Speaker 2: 28:14

And it's like if I find that responsibility important because okay, so Joe the Butcher has this legacy in rap, but it's like how did I make the world a better place, man? How did I help people who couldn't help themselves or didn't get the opportunity to help themselves? You know what I mean. So, and I can make that difference. I can make that difference and it's almost in a selfish kind of way, because what you get back in return it's like you sleep like a baby man, because you feel like you are making a difference. It's like, if I'm not doing it, well, then who is gonna do it? So it's important.

Speaker 1: 29:00

It's nothing like that feeling to have somebody say, hey, you helped me get my first car, or I got my first apartment, or hey, I got over a fear of performing in front of 500 people. I just was in front of my first 20,000. So everybody has their own goal and you can help them hit that goal. It's a beautiful feeling that can't even be explained. It's like a week that just.

Speaker 2: 29:24

Exactly. Oh, it's true, and it doesn't okay. So I'm hoping I can help a lot of people because of my visibility and speaking to you or speaking out to people, but even if you, just if you save one person's life, if you save one person's life, you've done an amazing thing. I'll tell you something else that we're doing.

Speaker 1: 29:45

And knowing a guy named Robin White helps too.

Speaker 2: 29:48

Yeah, yeah, yeah, it doesn't hurt, it doesn't hurt. Oh yeah, yeah, this is Narcan nasal spray. City of Angels has tons of these and you can get these. You gotta get it. You gotta look a little, but you can definitely get these. And anybody who's watching. Put this in your glove compartment. Okay, it's two doses. You never know where you're gonna be or how it's gonna affect your life, but you could save a life by just having this in your glove compartment.

Speaker 1: 30:32

That's the city of Philadelphia, and why is it?

Speaker 2: 30:34

like it, oh my God, and Kensington and Fishtown, and it's just kind of like don't just walk over the person and keep walking, save a fucking life for Christ's sake. Okay, for real, all right there.

Speaker 1: 30:51

So let me ask you this, Joe, you know because one thing about goat vibes you know, I love speaking to the salaves, I love speaking to the legends, the goats and things of that nature, and I'm sure that this interview can definitely help a lot of people along the way. But I do wanna ask questions that stick to your niche. There are other engineers, there are other people that wanna open up or have a recording facility for people to come to and visit. What would be one of the biggest pieces of advice that you may can give them under a minute?

Speaker 2: 31:27

Man, be okay. You have to be obviously you have to be really good at what you do, but you also have to have the right personality to know how to work with people, especially in this business. Exactly what that is, it's hard for me to say, but you know, if another way that you can think about it too is when somebody calls and says I need to record five songs, and the schedule looks kind of light, and you're like, well, it's 50 bucks an hour, and the person goes, all right, man, thanks. And they hang up Instead, just go, okay, how much money you got Straight up. What can you afford? Looks like I don't know. Man, I got 350 bucks.

Speaker 2: 32:23

All right, well, you're not gonna record 10 songs, but we're gonna record four songs and they're gonna be the shit. We're gonna start with that. So qualify your client and see how you can close the deal okay and work with people and just be nice. It doesn't pay, doesn't cost you anything to be nice. Did you work with Joe the butcher man? He was dick. You know it's like. Just be nice, be courteous, be respectful of people. Don't tell people what to do, even if you feel like, wow, this person, you know it's like if you make them feel valued and they had a good experience, they're gonna tell the people.

Speaker 1: 33:17

Yeah, definitely, joe. I really appreciate you for that. You don't wanna hold too much of your time. Also, we wanna want you to let everybody know where they can find you at. Or it might be an artist or an engineer or an investor or someone that may have watched this that wanna invest into one of the programs that you have going on. What would be the easiest way to contact you, whether it's an email or whatever, and we'll pin it right there at the bottom, sure Going to interview If you wanna know more, if you wanna know, and or donate to the foundation.

Speaker 2: 33:51

It's soundmindnetworkorg Even. It's funny too. It's like if you can help. I mean, it's like your vinyl will be available next year, but even without you know, and of course it's gonna be on Spotify, it's gonna be on every platform.

Speaker 1: 34:12

On the vinyl. Everybody by the vinyl.

Speaker 2: 34:14

By the vinyl, even at that. It's like people still believe it or not, still buy downloads because they wanna have downloads. That's supposed to just have Spotify. It's gonna be 10 bucks. All the proceeds go to the Soundmind Network, just you know. Go to Apple or Amazon, whatever, and you know it's like you get all this music for 10 bucks and you're helping to save lives. So you know, if you don't wanna go through the trouble of getting a vinyl, just hit the download button. That it'll be on the website. If someone wants to get a hold of me, it's Joe Nicolò Music. J-o-e-n-i-c-o-l-o. Joe Nicolò Music at gmailcom. That's my that's my email Bye.