In this episode, I’m joined by the amazing Jenna Hamm once again. Jenna is a clinical social worker from Manitoba, Canada. She's trained in multiple modalities including applied Polyvagal Theory, EMDR, Internal Family Systems, nutrition and integrative medicine. Thanks to a combination of genetics and life experience, Jenna has faced many complex physical and mental health issues that couldn't be diagnosed or properly treated. Navigating her own recovery led to a passion in helping others with extreme symptoms related to burnout and unresolved emotional experiences. This episode is filled to with such insightful information about all things nervous system, mental, and physical health.
We discuss:
Resources from Jenna
Feedback? Questions? Comments? Head on over to Instagram and let me know in my DMs!
FREE TRAINING
COURSES
Follow me on Tiktok: @jessiemgolden
Subscribe to my Youtube channel
In this episode, I’m joined by the amazing Jenna Hamm once again. Jenna is a clinical social worker from Manitoba, Canada. She's trained in multiple modalities including applied Polyvagal Theory, EMDR, Internal Family Systems, nutrition and integrative medicine. Thanks to a combination of genetics and life experience, Jenna has faced many complex physical and mental health issues that couldn't be diagnosed or properly treated. Navigating her own recovery led to a passion in helping others with extreme symptoms related to burnout and unresolved emotional experiences. This episode is filled to with such insightful information about all things nervous system, mental, and physical health.
We discuss:
Resources from Jenna
Feedback? Questions? Comments? Head on over to Instagram and let me know in my DMs!
FREE TRAINING
COURSES
Follow me on Tiktok: @jessiemgolden
Subscribe to my Youtube channel
jessie_1_05-24-2024_110355: [00:00:00] All right, Jenna, welcome back to the podcast. It has been, I think, since fall or late summer, almost a year
squadcaster-a0fa_1_05-24-2024_120355: Yeah, I want to say it was almost like exactly a year ago, like last spring. That feels right to me, but I don't know. Yeah.
jessie_1_05-24-2024_110355: And you had had your baby recently, I think.
squadcaster-a0fa_1_05-24-2024_120355: Yeah. He was
jessie_1_05-24-2024_110355: I don't know how old your kiddo is now.
squadcaster-a0fa_1_05-24-2024_120355: 16 months now, so he was just a tiny last month.
jessie_1_05-24-2024_110355: He looks like such a fun handful.
squadcaster-a0fa_1_05-24-2024_120355: God, he's like bananas. He's nothing like my first. I was like, I got so cocky with my oldest, being like, I just must be like the greatest mom. Like my kid is so good. Never gave me a hard time. Like never tantrum. Just like the sweetest, Like he's, the things that come out of that kid's mouth still, it's just like, he's so loving and not that my little one isn't those good things, but he's like, yeah, he's like a wild child who [00:01:00] is going to humble me at the supermarket.
When I used to be like, Oh, my kid would never do that. This one will, he'll be the one like,
jessie_1_05-24-2024_110355: That's
squadcaster-a0fa_1_05-24-2024_120355: yeah, throwing stuff off the shelves and running around like a maniac. But, but he is a lot of fun. He's a lot of fun. Yeah.
jessie_1_05-24-2024_110355: Good. And do you feel like for all the mothers out there, do you feel like it's more challenging this go around to keep yourself? I mean, regulated, if that's the term you want to use, but just keep yourself calm or in a state that you feel in control somewhat.
squadcaster-a0fa_1_05-24-2024_120355: Yeah, oh man, yeah, it's so, I feel like my first is just like, he's like the most regulating person. He's just from day one, like, just
jessie_1_05-24-2024_110355: Ah,
squadcaster-a0fa_1_05-24-2024_120355: like a cuddler and, you know, like wanted to be close and very sweet and gentle. So he's like, yeah. A gift to the nervous system, you know, and in, in other ways, my second is a gift to your nervous system too, cause he stretches your capacity a lot,
jessie_1_05-24-2024_110355: Ooh, I love that[00:02:00]
squadcaster-a0fa_1_05-24-2024_120355: Yeah, but yeah, it's like, it can definitely, I can find myself like kind of being pushed over my edge a lot more easily and just with two in general and like with quite the age gap, it can be tricky. Um, um, Because we're always doing things that are for a seven year old and then bring in a crazy one year old along who wants to keep up and then he injures himself.
And so I think just the context is stressful and then, yeah, he's determined and feisty and kind of trying to, trying to keep up with an older kid, I think. Um, so putting himself in danger and it's hard. And it's, uh, I think it's, it's probably hard because he has a lot of my energy too. So like, I think when you're,
jessie_1_05-24-2024_110355: Uh,
squadcaster-a0fa_1_05-24-2024_120355: you're met with your own, I don't know, met, you've met your match.
jessie_1_05-24-2024_110355: totally. He's like a mirror
squadcaster-a0fa_1_05-24-2024_120355: Yeah. It's like, Oh, this is like, it's already a lot to contain my own intensity sometimes. And [00:03:00] now I have to contain his too, or try to. So it's, yeah, it's been interesting. It's been interesting. Yeah. Yeah.
jessie_1_05-24-2024_110355: like in your, I learned so much from your Instagram, but I'm also part of your membership, which I love. And one of the things I think resonates so strongly with people on your Instagram is that you add a lot of nuance to the discussion around nervous system regulation.
So what are some of the most common myths or more black and white statements that you see people hearing people sharing about the nervous system? And what is your take on those?
squadcaster-a0fa_1_05-24-2024_120355: Oh, man. I think there's so much out there, especially because there are people, um, talking about the nervous system coming from all kinds of different places, you know, like it's like, this is the big, Talk of the town right now with like the in the health space, and I think all even mental [00:04:00] health, but people who aren't really training in the actual like polyvagal theory and understanding the nuance of the nervous system and just.
bringing it in to their discussion. And it's so, not only is it surface level, it's like inaccurate and it's maybe even based on things that are, that we thought were true a long time ago. So there's a lot. Um, but I think the big one that, that is, been bugging me lately, if I can name just one to start, is, uh, is yeah, this idea that like anything that is activating is inherently bad for the nervous system.
So someone shared something with me a while ago because I'm really into UFC, which maybe seems like, oh, that's a bit counterintuitive for someone who's like all about regulating the nervous system based on, um, What's popular, right? It's like, you're supposed to stay calm all the time. Um, so someone had shared this thing with me about some health guy who said that women shouldn't watch [00:05:00] football because all of that violence is so stressful and their nervous system doesn't know the difference between like what's on TV and what's real.
So it like dysregulates them and shuts down their fertility. And I was like, First of all, it's a bit extreme, like that's not how delicate a woman's body is, that they're, they're just going to shut down their fertility, um, watching a football game. Second of all, uh, we are actually built for stress. Like we're designed to be exposed to, and respond to, and then recover from stress.
And I think that's like the big missing piece. Like, yes, can you, can UFC be bad for my system at times? If, you know, I haven't slept in two weeks and my baby has been screaming his head off all day and I haven't eaten all day and I'm living off caffeine. Like then might that be something that I struggle to recover from if it's really, really like violent fights or whatever.
Yeah. Sure. Like [00:06:00] maybe in that context, that's not the best input for me. Right. But the key is like, if you have the resources to recover, then stress is actually really good for your nervous system. Like, so we're meant to expose ourselves to these things. Um, and kind of work with the energy and. be able to notice when it's over and let the body recover.
And the body knows how to do that. Um, sometimes these days, especially we need to support it a little, but um, it's more about recovery than like avoiding stress. No, so that's probably the biggest one that I've been like harping on a bit lately is just this like, avoid everything that's, that's exciting, even exciting, challenging, um, whatever.
jessie_1_05-24-2024_110355: And I can imagine, I mean, just from what helps me frame that is the end, the ultimate goal for me is to become a more formidable [00:07:00] human being. I don't want to say, okay, I can't handle any
squadcaster-a0fa_1_05-24-2024_120355: Yeah.
jessie_1_05-24-2024_110355: in my life because life is going to keep coming. So if my whole frame of reference for life is anything.
Painful or harder and comfortable should be avoided. I'm kind of fucked for the rest of my life. And that, and that's anxiety
squadcaster-a0fa_1_05-24-2024_120355: exactly. That's the thing, right? It's like when that, when we have this goal of avoiding hardships, avoiding stress, avoiding, um, like preventing things from kind of going off track, we actually are putting ourselves in a constantly stressed state by trying to avoid stress and by kind of knowing that we haven't, Built the resilience to tolerate those things that are going to happen, like life is going to happen and we need to have some space to hold that, right?
So the goal is really about like widening our, you know, the window of tolerance, widening what we can handle so that we're not just kind of perpetually afraid of what might come and how to dodge it, you know? [00:08:00] Sorry, that's my, I'll click that. Um, yeah, yeah, so it's, it's, it's so counter, like, it can feel counterintuitive.
It seems like, oh, if we just maintain this, like, you know, perfectly clean house and this calm morning routine and we don't engage with anything difficult and we don't have hard conversations and we don't, we quit our stressful job, like, avoid all stressful things. Stressful foods that could be a little inflammatory.
If we just get rid of all those things, like then we'll be okay. And actually we end up even less. Okay. You know? Um, yeah.
jessie_1_05-24-2024_110355: The pendulum always swings, doesn't it? From one end. Of the spectrum to the other. So I feel like we're on the other end. I see that so much now when it comes to fitness where everyone's afraid of cortisol, anything that can quote unquote spike your cortisol, which is just ridiculous of a statement in general, but it has made women.
And I do think there was chronic stress, you know, [00:09:00] just go, go, go constantly productivity obsessed, which I fell into. But, the answer to that, to your point, is not, let's never challenge our bodies ever. We can't lift more than one pound, otherwise our body's gonna
squadcaster-a0fa_1_05-24-2024_120355: yes. That's been bugging me too. Like the, like you should never do higher intensity workouts, especially as women. Um, we're not built for that. We shouldn't be doing that, but. The thing that I actually see as the much bigger problem is, um, is facing all this psychological stress and never matching that with our bodies, right?
So actually we're, we're built to kind of have this, um, like if there's a psychological threat, the body assumes the nervous system assumes that we should be moving, like we should be running away or fighting. And so when we sit at our laptops. And like build all this stress or we sit on our phones or at our desks or whatever we're doing, all of us have some level of psychological stress.
It's usually quite high these [00:10:00] days, and then we're not moving. And so that is like, what's leading to all this, what I call nervous system stuckness, right? It's like, there's all this accumulated energy in the body and the body's like, well, come on, like, I want to, I got to move this. I got to do something with this.
This, I should be kind of moving to match the level of intensity, the stress in the mind, um, for things to start to feel right and balanced and settled again. And so I, I don't really see the workout as the problem. I usually see like building all this stress through whatever it is that we do in our lives and not.
Um, and, and the workout, yeah, like the cortisol spikes, but then it, it drops, it comes down after a workout. I feel like the same thing with blood sugar, which is a bit of a different topic, but everyone's been afraid of like blood sugar spikes. I'm like, yeah, but that's like what it happens when you eat.
It's supposed to happen. This was a come up and down. Like we can't be afraid of [00:11:00] these ups and downs. Right.
jessie_1_05-24-2024_110355: Yes, it's, I always come back to, and I believe this, I feel like, and we'll get into this too, but both sides of ends of the spectrum with medicine, you know, the hardcore allopathic school of thought, and then functional holistic, it's, the body is stupid and we have to micromanage it. Like pretty sure the body knows how to manage blood sugar within, you know, reason.
squadcaster-a0fa_1_05-24-2024_120355: Yeah. I know. That's like something that should be talked about a little bit more is like, the body is actually so brilliant in terms of maintaining homeostasis. And it's actually like, it's our interfering that causes these things. Things that causes the body to have to work so hard to come back to homeostasis.
And then we, and then we say the body is off balance, the hormones are off and blood sugar is off and like, it's off balance. Like, no, the body is doing what it needs to do to come back to balance. And we just don't like how it feels. Cause it's working really, [00:12:00] really hard to kind of recover from the things that we're doing with the ways that we're trying to intervene, or, you know, even the things that we're knowingly doing.
That aren't aligned with healthy physiology, you know, the body is really good at balance. It's like, it's, it's us that kind of keeps tipping things off all the time.
jessie_1_05-24-2024_110355: There's no way we would have made it this far as a species. If it, if the body wasn't brilliant, I mean, there's so many harrowing periods of history. So when it comes to, you mentioned it can be uncomfortable when the body's trying to come back into balance. What are some of the experiences someone might have that might feel like, Oh my God, something's wrong, but it's actually a sign of healing.
squadcaster-a0fa_1_05-24-2024_120355: Yeah. Even like the, just the, from a nervous system perspective or what we are noticing and naming is like, you know, the nervous system is stuck in sympathetic or whatever. Um, but you, like some, like shallow breathing and rapid [00:13:00] heart rate. And some of these things are like that survival energy that's trying to move.
And what we often do. And this is a really nuanced topic, but it's like, what we try to do is calm it down. Like, okay, we have to get the heart rate back to normal. We have to breathe slowly. And sometimes actually what the nervous system is trying to do is like, hyperventilate a little, like breathe fast and discharge some of that energy from whatever we experienced in the day that felt threatening.
So even things like that, those little, like those symptoms of anxiety that we want to get rid of, actually, we kind of want to let the body move through those, you know, and even like pain and tension. So things get I always get annoyed with some of these words that get thrown around a lot, but it's a good word.
Um, but like when, yeah, when the body wasn't able to do what it wanted to do at the time of a stress, there can be pain and tension in certain parts of the body. And then we just like we massage the body and you know, it's like [00:14:00] no, It actually, it just wants to like move in a certain way and if we can tap into that and kind of allow it to, sometimes we say complete that response, then the tension will resolve.
Um, and other times it's about going to like something more painful beneath the pain that the pain is trying to protect. But it's like, yeah, all these sort of like spot treatments to try to Um, get rid of the sensations, um, that are happening as the body is communicating. It's a, it's attempt to return to balance, right?
It wants to move. It wants to breathe in a certain way. It wants to like discharge stress. It wants to feel safe again. Um, and then even distraction. I think that's another thing that we do. And I get, and it can be helpful in a sense to distract from some of these like symptoms of stress. Um, but usually it's just, it just [00:15:00] gets in the way and it causes more stress.
And we're scrolling on our phone and these constant inputs, cause we don't want to feel our anxiety. It's like, we're just adding fuel to the fire. So also just learning how to like, focus. Stay with it and not try to do anything with symptoms is sometimes the most potent way for things to resolve, you know?
I don't even know if I answered your question. I feel like I was
jessie_1_05-24-2024_110355: no. That,
squadcaster-a0fa_1_05-24-2024_120355: Yeah Yeah,
jessie_1_05-24-2024_110355: sometimes I just feel charged for lack of a better term And I don't really know I can't pinpoint what it's from and then I you know, I try and intellectualize it What's the reason for this and sometimes I find myself on my phone Just don't even know how I got there and I noticed myself getting even more agitated Because I couldn't figure out what it's from and it's not until I just sit there and say okay I just have to have to feel like shit until this Passes, you know, and just stop trying to fix it [00:16:00] that I feel better
squadcaster-a0fa_1_05-24-2024_120355: Yes. Yeah. And do you ever notice that sometimes you like also get the answer when you stop looking for it? Like if you just, I'm like, Oh yeah, right.
jessie_1_05-24-2024_110355: Literally every time
squadcaster-a0fa_1_05-24-2024_120355: It's wild. It's like, there's the body wants to communicate so badly. It's just that our mind is trying so hard to be the only one speaking. And so if we can listen, like we'll get so much more insightful information about what to do next.
You know?
jessie_1_05-24-2024_110355: Yes, yeah really is it's it's kind of a spiritual practice to learn to just Surrender so much to something we've been taught to be afraid of or to not trust
squadcaster-a0fa_1_05-24-2024_120355: Yes. Yeah. And not have answers. And, and you know, this is like probably in part the influence of the conventional medical model. Like it's not that I, I don't throw that totally under the bus, but just the mentality. And, and, you know, [00:17:00] functional medicine isn't all that different either in terms of the way that it speaks about the body.
But we were raised with this medical model that kind of told us from, you know, even when we were in our mom's belly is like, we need to be checked, like something could be wrong with this baby. Something could go wrong. We have to make sure. And then we have to go to these visits all the time. The doctor has to see, is your body broken yet?
Does your body need me to fix it yet? Like what's at any moment, something could just go wrong and you wouldn't even know about it. And if there's a symptom, it means something's off. We have to give you a medicine. And so I think. Even if we've like moved away from that and we've analyzed our way through it and we don't want to believe that anymore, I think it's still kind of the automatic response, right?
It's just like, Oh, my body's doing something like bloating or, um, sweating. My hands are sweaty or my heart rate is high, or my hair is not as thick as it used to be, whatever. And, um, Those are important things to notice and just like be aware of, but, but our go [00:18:00] to is like, what's wrong? How do I fix it? And the energy of fixing it, I think disrupts anything that we, like, it takes the medicine away from anything we might do to try to support ourselves, right?
So,
jessie_1_05-24-2024_110355: Absolutely
squadcaster-a0fa_1_05-24-2024_120355: matters so much. I think that we could do the exact same thing with completely different intentions and one will be Medicine and one will be poison, you know, like the body knows when we're approaching it with this like force and this like, stop it. We don't like what you're doing. Right?
jessie_1_05-24-2024_110355: Versus let me try and help you along in doing your
squadcaster-a0fa_1_05-24-2024_120355: Yes, exactly. Yeah.
jessie_1_05-24-2024_110355: so I can imagine, and I was definitely this person. I am more of someone who was ingrained with the go, go, go mentality. My self worth was very closely tied to being productive. Resting is weak. Just keep going. And there's a lot of [00:19:00] fear in there. So I can imagine someone listening to this. Who was like me a couple years ago would say oh, she's saying that I should always be doing HIIT workouts I should always be going going going, you know, it's like a permission slip of they are always on the air of I'm not doing enough So then they hear that and say, okay, I should be doing more and then there's the other people who are always saying I can't move my body today I can't do this.
So this is where the nuance comes in. Right? How would somebody know? Maybe it actually is wise that you stop feeling like you need to do something every
squadcaster-a0fa_1_05-24-2024_120355: Yes.
jessie_1_05-24-2024_110355: and you need to rest.
squadcaster-a0fa_1_05-24-2024_120355: Yeah. I think, um, like the, the concept of self attunement is really missing in the conversation a lot of the time too. Right. There's so, um, much of this sort of like, Oh, do this for 30 seconds and your anxiety will be gone. And like, you know, those types of clips and this is always good for your nervous system and stimulate your vagus nerve and these kinds of like protocols for helping yourself.
But it's just not how it works at this [00:20:00] level. And so it is, it's totally about attuning to your actual needs. And at first it's really hard. And so one of the things I always say to people is like, get really honest about in which direction you're imbalanced. Right? So if you're somebody who's doing the HIIT workouts like all the time, um, you can kind of assume.
that you're probably doing too much and that your way to kind of find, start finding balance is to, to work on feeling safe to do less. You know, it's really jarring. I think this has happened for a lot of women, especially too, because the internet has Blown up around like women need resting all the time.
And so a lot of women have tried to like cut themselves off and just go do nothing and go to the other end of the extreme, which can feel totally anxiety provoking and is also just not good for you either. So it's not about just like, okay, so I am someone who does too much. Now I'm going to do nothing.
Cause yeah, that, that shift [00:21:00] will feel terrible. Um, but as you start to build that like self attunement muscle, have that concept in mind, right? So am I somebody who leans toward too much? Okay, well then I can kind of be fairly certain that what I need to do is pull back a little. Right. And then as I come to know myself better, I can make more wise decisions, you know, and it's, it can be tricky.
Cause there's like an example might be if you're, if you had a really stressful day at work, it could be an excellent idea to then go move your body in an, in intense way that kind of matches and just discharge that. And, uh, especially if we're doing it mindfully, like we're aware that we want to tap into that energy and work with it and move it.
Um, it can also be the worst idea because we may have no resources left to recover from that workout. And so now [00:22:00] we may have been able to recover from the day, but now we've like pushed the stress so hard. The body's had to pump out way more stress hormones. Now we're in this weird place of like crashing and we can't sleep cause there's too much stress, but we're so tired.
And like now we've pushed ourself over the edge. Right. So So there's no, it's not, there's no protocol for it. There's no rules and there's no rules even for your own body. Because one day that could have, like the workout might've been the idea, the best idea, and the next week you try it again and it's the worst.
And so it's like, you, you really have to get, um, like skilled at learning the language of your own body to know what's going to fit and what is attuned and what isn't. Yeah.
jessie_1_05-24-2024_110355: It seems so much to come back to learning to trust yourself, which is Seems to be so difficult in this day and age. I work with clients on that all the time when it comes to food relationship with food, that everyone wants the three, two, one protocol. [00:23:00] So they can turn their brain off and just outsource everything to somebody else. And it doesn't work.
squadcaster-a0fa_1_05-24-2024_120355: I wish it did. Like, I, like, that's so much more. It's so funny to me that I like teach this stuff because I'm like, Oh man, I am like the most analytical, like give me rules and like I want structure and I still find myself sometimes being like, Oh, I'll just make myself a little protocol for this gut stuff I'm experienced.
And I'm like, no, it never works. And my body tells me very quickly, I'll try one day and then things go haywire. And I'm like, Oh yeah. Okay. Yeah. I got it. Sorry. I forgot. I forgot. So I totally understand. Like this is, I think sometimes. There's this assumption that like I'm speaking and even you are like speaking from this high horse like place like, Oh, I've got it all figured out.
And like, you're so silly for wanting it to be a protocol. I want it to, I wish, I still wish that, that it was like that, you know, that we, Yes.
jessie_1_05-24-2024_110355: when it's just one, two, three, this is all you need to do and you're taken care of. But
squadcaster-a0fa_1_05-24-2024_120355: Yeah. But the same, [00:24:00] the safety that comes from. Like not, not needing so many controllable variables to be perfect for you to feel safe. That's like, you can't compare it. You know, like this, this sense of like, I can handle it. Um, so incredible. And once you tap into that, you just, um, you probably won't even crave that.
The controllables, you know, not nearly as much anyway. Um, yes.
jessie_1_05-24-2024_110355: Yeah. I always tell there's an interesting school of thought when it comes to, you know, quote unquote junk food. And Where people say just keep it out of the house always if you can't control yourself keep it out of the house and I've never Been in alignment with that because what are you going to do when you're exposed to it?
Then you have this whole story that this food is bigger than me So it's kind of the same thing of actually that makes you a victim. It makes you [00:25:00] Weaker rather than stronger Mm hmm
squadcaster-a0fa_1_05-24-2024_120355: things, even people, like I think that's common too in, in like my space, the mental health space, that everybody's toxic and have these rigid boundaries. And, and it's like, does that, is that empowering? Like, sometimes it obviously makes sense. And other times it's like, And sometimes for a short period of time, it also makes a lot of sense, but yeah, if we're sort of hell bent on avoiding anybody who causes us to feel like anything but wonderful, that is very disempowering and it makes us feel very much like a victim and we're giving the other person so much power to kind of enter into our system and dictate how we're going to feel and there is this way where you can Like become acutely aware of your own energetic and physical boundaries and know yourself and kind of know what you're going to allow in or not.
And it doesn't depend on the other person. It's like they can do their [00:26:00] thing. They can say the thing and do the thing and be who they are. And it can be annoying, but it doesn't penetrate. Right. And I think the same thing with. It's like, if you do work around, I think IFS is really helpful for this. I think we'll probably talk about that in a bit, but do some work around like, well, you know, why the craving and why does this food have so much, like, what is it?
Why is it so meaningful? What is it giving you? You don't have and need and because it's usually it's not the food itself that you need It's something that the food provides and once you can provide that Then that item loses its power, right?
jessie_1_05-24-2024_110355: hmm Yeah. And I found that even just the story of I, I'm an abstainer, I'm a sugar addict, I'm all these labels. It's a self fulfilling prophecy of I am powerless over this thing. Yes,
squadcaster-a0fa_1_05-24-2024_120355: [00:27:00] That's like a lot of the complaint from Like around the, the, um, conventional medical system is just like diagnoses and labels, and these are so bad, but then you go into more holistic spaces and everyone's a moldy and a limey and the, whatever,
jessie_1_05-24-2024_110355: totally. Their Instagram bio is like their illness that they have or.
squadcaster-a0fa_1_05-24-2024_120355: Yeah. Yeah. And I get it. Like, I, I mean, I went through the mold thing and, um, that felt like a very big part of my life for a long time. I, I never, I never called myself that, but, um, the moldy note that just, I'm like, I'm not moldy. Um, but yeah, I think like that too, it's like, it's, it's taking away the complexity of.
You, if you as a human, like, if you, if one part of who you are is that right now you're not eating sugar, that's like the, it's such a tiny part of who you are and what matters about [00:28:00] you. Right? But making that so important is, it seems so disrespectful to yourself, you know?
jessie_1_05-24-2024_110355: completely and looking back on me when I would talk about diet stuff all the time. It's just boring. It's like you make yourself this dull version of
squadcaster-a0fa_1_05-24-2024_120355: Yes, yeah, even, uh, even in this world, like I get it, it's important. Your nervous system like impacts everything that you do every day. It's like, you know, even right now it's like, Oh, my heart rate's a little higher than it usually is. I'm recording this podcast. I could say something stupid, like, Oh, it's a little bit.
Um, so there's like an awareness. It makes sense to have an awareness of it, but I think people start to think about it. All the time. Like they think about their mental health and their nervous system and every emotion. And I need to feel everything or, or avoid feeling everything. And it's like, Not really.
It's like, you know,
jessie_1_05-24-2024_110355: Say more about that because I'm curious. I feel like with the onslaught of mental and [00:29:00] emotional health information out there. We are now it's creating this anxiety around, Oh my God, did I feel this like slight twinge in something? Is something, am I going to spiral into having some mental health crisis?
It's just too much where people are focused on their emotions too much. Do you
squadcaster-a0fa_1_05-24-2024_120355: Oh, yeah. Yeah. I think, um, like there's one, there's like a group, one group of people who will start to over overly fixate on the internal. And sometimes that was already there. So this is like, it's quite common that we all have some level of imbalance when it comes to what our nervous system is picking up on.
Um, so kind of depending on our experiences, some of us will have a nervous system that's like hyper focused on the external, doesn't want to know anything about the body. Right. So it's like the, the lived experience has said threats are out there, focus out there. And then other people have had the experience of like threats are inside, like emotions are threatening, right?
Cause they, [00:30:00] maybe we were left alone with our overwhelming emotions as kids. And so now we're terrified of being in our bodies where all those scary things are. The nervous system wants you to really fixate on that, right? So there's this, it's not conscious, it's this like unconscious awareness of, of things outside or inside.
And so I think Either way, actually, I think some of us that were more externally focused and ignoring physiology and emotion kind of got these messages and then started to go inside and get really stuck inside and be like, Oh, I'm having a feeling, I have to do something about the feeling. I need to journal every time something happens and then I And then I need to do some EFT and then breathe.
And then, you know, like really noticing every, everything that the body is kind of fluctuating with. Um, and then, yeah, people who were already imbalanced to get this information and for them, it's going to feel like resonance. It's going to feel good. Cause they're already doing it. Kind of like the HIIT people who heard me say that HIIT workouts are okay.
And they wanted to, they want to go and do all the HIIT workouts. Cause that resonated is like, yeah, yeah, see, it's good.[00:31:00]
jessie_1_05-24-2024_110355: Yes.
squadcaster-a0fa_1_05-24-2024_120355: people who are already internally focused and they're being told to do it more, they're going to do it more. And that is not healthy either. So it is about having this, like this balance of internal and external awareness and trusting that the body knows what to do with a lot of things.
Um, so when we have, you know, whatever, a spike in anxiety, it doesn't necessarily require our conscious attention. You know, we don't have to like sit there. We certainly don't need to figure it out. We don't necessarily need to tap it away or breathe it out or like do anything big. As long as you're not, um, constantly bringing in more inputs.
Like as long as you have, I call it these like digestive breaks for your nervous system, where there's a little space, like you're at least taking. A quiet walk or a shower without a podcast or something to like, those things can move through. It's, [00:32:00] it's kind of the bigger stuff, right? The, the bigger triggers, the, the traumas, the, you know, the things that really did overwhelm us or flood us.
Like, then we want to place our attention and, Whether we're, we're working solely from like a somatic perspective and letting the body complete its response or we're getting to know it through like the IFS lens and parts work or whatever we're doing, like then, okay, yes, that's the stuff that you want to attend to.
But we don't need to be like worrying about every little thing. Like spike in anxiety or emotion, any shame, whatever, like these little things are okay and we're meant to feel them just like blood sugar is meant to go up and down. Like we're meant to have these emotional fluctuations throughout the day and not every one of them is, um, a crisis, you know?
jessie_1_05-24-2024_110355: Yes. Yeah. I think that's so insightful because I definitely [00:33:00] swung once I had my health burnout, the chronic mysterious health issues, I became a little too focused on the inside because I didn't want to miss something again that would lead me to that place. But it just created more of that for me. So it's a, my life lesson I feel like is just taking my hands off the wheel.
squadcaster-a0fa_1_05-24-2024_120355: Mm hmm.
jessie_1_05-24-2024_110355: control, which is so much easier said than done, but it's a practice.
squadcaster-a0fa_1_05-24-2024_120355: Totally. Yeah. Yeah. I wish there was a better way to like frame what it should look like, because it's like, I want people to be aware of what's going on inside and develop the ability to be aware without feeling afraid of it, you know, which is like, I don't know, the biggest challenge of my lifetime so far, I think.
Um,
jessie_1_05-24-2024_110355: it's for so many people. And I think you spoke last time about childbirth for my friends, so many of them, that's been a great teacher of [00:34:00] just, they feel whether it's intense nausea throughout the whole pregnancy, or they just feel awful. And they just refuse to accept it and they just are at war with it.
And it's the minute they just say, okay, fuck it. I just can't fight it anymore. Then it seems to at least lessen they're more at peace with it.
squadcaster-a0fa_1_05-24-2024_120355: Yes. Yeah. A lot. Um, comes in. I mean, it's probably why I've been like blessed with really challenging health issues, a challenging labor to two times, um, and delivery there's like, Yeah, there's something that's been so healing and hard about almost feeling like, um, I'm in this constant marathon, like right where that says, okay, well, I'm having a good patch and now I'm going through another period of like insomnia and, or, or my digestive stuff kind of comes up again.
And it feels like I'm always doing this. I'm always doing this. And it's like, given me this ability [00:35:00] to, I like, for some reason, I really like the word endurance. Like just this, I am just like, I can endure this. And that's maybe not how most people use the term because it doesn't necessarily sound positive when I say it out loud.
But to me, it does. And it feels, it stops feeling like I need to rush to some kind of finish line. And it, it's like, I've done this. I've, I've endured many years of these things. I endured seven hours of pushing it. I was never like it did end and it always does resolve. Right. And so having that real experience, I think it's something that I.
I can work, I have worked on in therapy and with my own kind of self attunement practices, but it's like, it is also just going through it over and over again and learning something each time and just having that like real felt sense experience that like things can get really ugly and really hard and really uncomfortable [00:36:00] and they do shift.
And so when they happen again, you're just like, here we are, I know this, I can be with this. And I don't know that I personally would have ever gotten there without all the exposure to it, you know? Yeah. Yeah.
jessie_1_05-24-2024_110355: I really do. I think some people take this to the extreme, but I think it's a more empowering reframe of just when shitty things happen of using it to your advantage, if you can.
squadcaster-a0fa_1_05-24-2024_120355: Yeah.
jessie_1_05-24-2024_110355: saying, how can this build, how can I use this to build more capacity to handle something like this again in the future?
Because again, I feel like life is just, unless you live a very small life, very predictable life, it's just going to happen. So it's better to have the, for me, the frame of mind of, oh, how awesome I now know I can look back on this experience and say, I've done this. So I have a lot more confidence this
squadcaster-a0fa_1_05-24-2024_120355: Yes. Yeah. And it requires patience because even still, sometimes in the moment, yeah, like I think you [00:37:00] mentioned earlier, like there's confusion, like why is this happening this time? Like I thought, I thought I was doing all the right things. Like I thought I was taking care of myself. Why is this happening?
So there, it just, I'm just like, I trust that I'll figure it out. Find out what I meant to find out and sometimes it's like the next day. It's like, Oh yeah. Okay. Right. This makes sense. You know, that's like, okay, cool. Um, and making sense always does calm the anxiety a little, but yeah, like the patience of going through things again and again, challenging things.
And, um, And like starting to see it, especially when you have repetitive, most of us do, I think there's just like a way that our bodies, uh, choose certain symptoms, maybe the ones that we listen to the most when we actually do slow down and stop and, um, you know, pay attention to them. But our bodies tend to have these patterns and like, like I keep saying, it's like mine is always sleep and digestion.
That's just sort of what, digestion first, sleep later. Um, [00:38:00] So those are, that's just what my body is going to do when I'm getting in its way, when I'm doing things, I'm not listening, I'm, you know, that can be out of your control as a mother sometimes, so that can feel especially frustrating. But I just see it as like, my body is saying, Hey, like too much.
Stop. I'm like, okay, thanks. I know, like, thanks for giving me the symptoms that, you know, I'll, I'll hear. Right.
jessie_1_05-24-2024_110355: Mhm.
squadcaster-a0fa_1_05-24-2024_120355: my best and we'll build our relationship back up and kind of get back to it. And it's cool because it starts to resolve quicker and quicker, you know. And that's really neat to witness over and over again too, in terms of
jessie_1_05-24-2024_110355: Building that
squadcaster-a0fa_1_05-24-2024_120355: building that trust.
Yeah. Yeah.
jessie_1_05-24-2024_110355: Yeah. I love that. And given that I have a female audience, do, and I think you mentioned something about this yourself with, uh, [00:39:00] Um, hormones. I don't know if it was thyroid or Hashimoto's or something, but do you find that people are saying everything is nervous system related when it could be sex hormones?
It could be, there's obviously other things in the body that could be causing someone to feel certain ways.
squadcaster-a0fa_1_05-24-2024_120355: Yeah. That's something else that, um, I don't know. I feel like on the one, on the one hand, there are people who are like, everything is the nervous system. All you have to do is regulate your nervous system and then you'll have no health issues. And then on the other side, it's like nobody wants to recognize that.
And they want to like, well, it must be parasites. And then it, you know, you must need thyroid hormone and then you need, you know, so it's like, it's both. Um, I do think that The nervous system dictates a lot about our health, right? So it's like, it's, I think of the nervous system is, um, kind of giving instructions to every organ system of the body, right?
So it's like, okay, if [00:40:00] times are really stressful. Sometimes the nervous system might tell the thyroid to speed right up. Like we need the energy to respond to all these big threats in life. And then of course, what goes up must come down. And so then there might be like hypothyroid afterwards, but that's actually potentially just kind of things balancing out.
Sometimes, and then, you know, if there's been, and a lot of us have been this way our whole lives, it's like, there's been a lot of dysregulation of the nervous system or a lot of stuckness in certain states. And so these organ systems haven't been getting the cues they need to function optimally. And so things have kind of gotten a little, they've spiraled a little bit.
Right. This was certainly part of my story with like my immune system dysregulating and like the inflammation got so high that nervous system practices didn't do a thing. Like they didn't help me at all at first. Like I had to work on that side of things and bring down the inflammation so that my Brain had enough clarity, um, and I can communicate with my body and like [00:41:00] have some of these practices actually like hold and, and create change.
But that amount of information was just like, it was perceived, it was, you know, caused by my body, but then it was also resulting in my body feeling totally unsafe because there was just so much of it, then that shouldn't have been there. So I think we have to be cautious about like, it's all one or the other.
They all interplay and, and we got to know when it's appropriate to, um, kind of enter in at multiple entry points, you know, like, that's not to say just focus on the thyroid or just focus on digestion or just focus on the inflammation, um, because it's, if we only focus on that and not The stress and the nervous system component and coming back to safety.
It we're going to be stuck treating forever. And I see a lot of people in the holistic space doing this, right? It's like they treat mold and then they treat Lyme and then they treat parasites and then they get into airway problems. And then, [00:42:00] you know, like they're jet, they just keep being like, oh, the body's still dysfunctional.
So I must need to do some other big protocol and I must need to address this. And. You know, it's like me, maybe that those things are good ideas and, um, kind of always what's at the root of the root is whether the body feels safe enough to heal or not, right. Or safe enough to focus on healing or not.
Right.
jessie_1_05-24-2024_110355: And giving time. I'm just thinking for women with our sex hormones, you know, I just pumped my body full of hormones. I did egg freezing. And so it's natural that there would be, you know, a downturn with that. And it's fine. witnessing my body coming back into balance and it can be uncomfortable because I don't feel like myself.
And it's easy to try for me to try and get into this like, Oh, let me just try to regulate it away. Let me try and do this nervous system practices. And it's like, you know, I might just have to sit with the discomfort. And I know a lot of women feel that way with all kinds of [00:43:00] reasons with their
squadcaster-a0fa_1_05-24-2024_120355: Yes. Yeah. I still think it's such a helpful tool, especially things like. if you have the capacity for it, but just to like witness the discomfort, like witness yourself in the discomfort, like this is hard. This is really hard. Um, you know, feel the bloating, feel hot flashes, whatever it is. And just like notice the sensation and what it's like to be in your body.
And even that. It's so incredibly helpful. And it's honestly like it's at the root of so much of our suffering. That's like feeling unseen in our suffering. So connection is just so helpful in that way. We can offer connection to our own selves and like witness that experience. And that just, it just kind of clears out so much of the pain of.
whatever phase we're going through that's difficult. So I still think it's like helpful, [00:44:00] even if it's like, Oh yeah, well the breath work is not going to get rid of the hormones that are floating around in your body.
jessie_1_05-24-2024_110355: Right.
squadcaster-a0fa_1_05-24-2024_120355: But the level of intensity can really shift when you just honor That it's hard, and that it's uncomfortable, and that it's there, and not just, I mean, distract when you need to, but when you can take breaks from distraction, um, it'll really help.
The body loves, like, our noticing.
jessie_1_05-24-2024_110355: Yes. I've, I've learned that and I'm curious, do you feel like a lot of the practices, which I love all of them that you teach and just looking back, some of them I instinctually knew how to do and I don't know how I knew how to do them. Do you feel like we know, so like longer exhales or certain types of breathing?
It was just intuitively. Do you imagine that we have some of these instincts inside of us
squadcaster-a0fa_1_05-24-2024_120355: yeah, totally.
jessie_1_05-24-2024_110355: that we've just lost touch with them? Yeah.
squadcaster-a0fa_1_05-24-2024_120355: Yeah, I think so. [00:45:00] Um, I think there's a lot of things that we do, some of which uh, are like socially unacceptable, right? So, kids are such a good example, especially boys, especially boys with like ADHD or even autism. But they rock and they fidget and they do all these things and it's like, the fidgeting can be their body trying to release some of that sympathetic energy.
Energy that's there that they're not fully allowed to express because they're being asked to sit, right? So it's like the energy is trying to move through the body, through the hands in any way that it possibly can. And then, you know, some teachers are cool with fidgeting and some are not. And so like things like that, there's like this intuitive, like, I just, my body needs to do this.
Um, but yeah, rocking and swaying is another really common one that people will just kind of go into. Usually that's when they're starting to feel like they're shutting down a little bit. But it can also just be soothing if there's like a lot of activation, like sympathetic activation in your system. And then yeah, breath, like taking deep breaths, [00:46:00] big sighs.
We have these, like the, the physiological sigh has gotten really popular. We do that all the time, um, without thinking about it. So there's lots of things that, uh, Are intuitive or once intuitive, many of which we've had to cut off because nobody wants us to be like, Oh, in a meeting or,
jessie_1_05-24-2024_110355: Totally.
squadcaster-a0fa_1_05-24-2024_120355: whatever, right.
Or even like vocalizing in other ways or moving or getting up and walking when there's like a stress response and we're supposed to be sitting and recording a podcast or whatever. So it's like, I think, you know, I think that's why we're talking about practicing them, because we've, we've lost touch with those intuitive impulses.
jessie_1_05-24-2024_110355: Yeah, it's, I think too, like with witnessing, I think children are such a good example. I've noticed even my dog just watching her, how she [00:47:00] discharges energy and how she just naturally knows how to regulate herself. I don't have to do a damn thing. She just, if she needs to pant really hard, if something scared her, she does it.
She shakes when she needs to. And it's taught me a lot just by
squadcaster-a0fa_1_05-24-2024_120355: Yes. Yeah. Like that's like that hyperventilating breath that, um, we used to do after a really stressful event. Dogs still do it. And like the shaking, all of that used to happen really naturally. It still will for some of us in really extreme, like heightened states where we have like no access to our prefrontal cortex.
So we can't suppress it. Um, but yeah. Yeah, it's just gotta come out. Um, yeah, all those things. So it's, it's, in some ways I find it a bit comical that, like, I'm even teaching this. Cause it, it feels dumb. Like, it feels like this is, like, in us. Like, our bodies do these things. And now I'm just sort of like, hey, let your body do this thing that it should be doing, knows how to do.
Like, I, I kind of feel silly to have a job. But, but I need it.[00:48:00]
jessie_1_05-24-2024_110355: No, it's so necessary.
squadcaster-a0fa_1_05-24-2024_120355: We've, we've really, um, I shouldn't say we, but they, I don't know, whoever has decided wherever this came from, done a really good job at like stopping us from, from listening and expressing. So
jessie_1_05-24-2024_110355: Yes. Anger, all of those things. I mean, we're just taught to, it'd be so liberating to be able to walk around. I mean, it'd be unruly, but At least to some degree to be able to express things a little bit more naturally.
squadcaster-a0fa_1_05-24-2024_120355: I love, uh, I love like thinking in parts work for that reason, especially with my kids, especially with my little guy, because yeah, like there's no, he's not holding back a darn thing. Right. And. For me, it's like parts of me are like, but I have to hold back. And like, this isn't fair. I don't want to hold back.
So I actually, sometimes to keep myself, um, present is like, I imagine my parts expressing kind of how he is. So, you know, it's like, [00:49:00] we're both struggling in this and I'm the one who has to hold it and keep it together and not show him that I'm struggling too. Cause obviously that would just make things 10 times worse, but I, I just I just feel and imagine a younger part of me doing what it wants to do too, right?
And so it's really cool how powerful and helpful that can be, just like allowing there to be a part of me that, you know, that is mad, like mad that I'm in this situation with my baby that is overwhelmed and frustrated and wants it to go away. And it's like, instead of I'm the perfectly gentle parent who feels no feelings and I'm calm all the time.
It's like, it's like letting that be true while I also. And in the version of me that can be the calm, gentle, attuned parent, you know,
jessie_1_05-24-2024_110355: Yes.
squadcaster-a0fa_1_05-24-2024_120355: a really cool practice. I, I, I liked, I shouldn't call it practice, but just something that came to me at some point in parenting my, my spirited one.[00:50:00]
jessie_1_05-24-2024_110355: I love that. So it sounds like adult Jenna is housing child Jenna and letting little you have the experience of like rage or frustration,
squadcaster-a0fa_1_05-24-2024_120355: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And, and I think that could be used, um, in all kinds of settings, you know, when you're feeling something and just like allow the part of you that's feeling those things to feel them and maybe just imagining letting out the sigh or the scream or imagining getting up and walking and that can, um, it's so cool because the part of the brain that visualizes is very connected to the body.
It's like, there's like just this A lot of communication there. So it can provide that somatic relief that we're looking for, even though it's like not available for us to get up and stomp around or whatever, we can just imagine it and it can, um, help those things kind of move through us and not get stuck.
Yeah,
jessie_1_05-24-2024_110355: that is so fascinating. I find IFS and parts work. So interesting. Do you [00:51:00] feel like it can ever become over intellectualizing the human experience? Is that ever something that for people like you and I, and imagine a ton of others in your community who try and intellectualize and analyze things that it becomes rather than just letting me be a human trying to intellectualize the process of being human.
squadcaster-a0fa_1_05-24-2024_120355: totally. Um, when that happens, And there's, so, so when that happens, it's usually a, it's a part trying to act as the self, right? So, so for anybody who's not familiar with IFS or parts work, the concept is that we all have this self, this self with a capital S kind of like the core of who we are, it's this like inherently calm, confident, curious, compassionate thing within us.
And we can kind of draw in all these spiritual parts of us. Parts of it, it definitely fits with a variety of spiritual beliefs. Um, so there seems to be an element of that, of like something [00:52:00] bigger is involved and it's in all of us. Sorry if that's a little out there for some of you. Um, and then we have parts, these like psychological parts that, um, we're all born with different parts of us.
We all are kind of multiple in the mind, um, have different qualities and If we were born into the most perfect world and the most perfect family, all those parts would just remain really healthy and valuable and do these great things. But because none of us are, our parts take on different roles. So our parts, some of them hold onto our pain.
And others kind of step in to protect us from ever experiencing that pain again, right? So these protective parts, protectors tend to run most of the show and they really don't want us going near the ones with pain. Also why some of those parts don't want us to go near the body at times or why those parts even hyper focus on the body [00:53:00] and fear the body.
Cause that's just when we're, when we are. Uh, where we, um, are either young and easily hurt or even older and have a trauma. It's so felt in the body. It's such a somatic experience, right? So pain, there's always something very physical about emotional. So anyway, we have these hurt parts and we have these protective parts.
And in parts work. We Connect to the self, and we witness the parts of us that hold all these different roles and burdens, and we try to help them. We try to help them kind of come out of the past and into the present, and show us what they carry, um, and tell us about their beliefs, and have this dialogue, and You know, like as they're ready, release some of the things that they carry, renegotiate new roles for them, um, and certainly heal the pain that's beneath the protectors.
All of those good things. But yeah, sometimes we can have like an analytical [00:54:00] part that wants to act like the self. And we, we try in IFS to be really, um, like to really watch for that because it's so common. Um, my. My therapist is really good at calling out any part that might be peeking in to say a thing or two about what's going on with another part.
So yeah, there's a lot of good questions. So even just checking, like checking your intention. So if you're, if you, if you're working with a part and just like, can you sense that you want to get rid of it or that you want it to stop doing what it's doing now, or that you want this to go faster. Anything like that is not self.
Like that's a part. Trying to get another part. to stop it, right? So there's these, there's a lot of little tricks to, to just constantly check and make sure that you're in self energy and it's not a part trying to manage another part.
jessie_1_05-24-2024_110355: So similar to what we were discussing with the nervous system and discomfort in the body, it's essentially just [00:55:00] letting you all parts of you, meaning the, the mind, the, the body have its
squadcaster-a0fa_1_05-24-2024_120355: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
jessie_1_05-24-2024_110355: Just letting yourself be.
squadcaster-a0fa_1_05-24-2024_120355: Yeah. And it's like, it's not that we want to let parts continue to suffer. Like that's not the goal. We do want to help them heal. Um, but it's not, Like from a place of like, like criticism, shame, frustration. It's from a place of like love and, and this idea that like parts will heal.
When they feel known and loved enough, they won't heal when they feel like criticized and pushed and forced and all those other things. Right. So same with people. Yeah.
jessie_1_05-24-2024_110355: that
squadcaster-a0fa_1_05-24-2024_120355: Yeah. Yeah.
jessie_1_05-24-2024_110355: who has ever responded well to being loved and quote unquote in that [00:56:00] way,
squadcaster-a0fa_1_05-24-2024_120355: totally.
jessie_1_05-24-2024_110355: It's, it's such great work. I absolutely love what you do, Jenna. I think what you've created inside of your membership is so needed. It's no surprise to me that it's taken off with such popularity because I think you have such a unique perspective and that you've experienced so much with your health issues and not having the right path or the right resources to help you.
I just can't say enough good things about it. I think it's incredible. So. On that note, how can people join this or what resources do you have available for people and where can they follow
squadcaster-a0fa_1_05-24-2024_120355: you so much. Um, yeah, the library is like probably my, my biggest thing. It's, that's my membership. The name of my membership is the library. Um, it's 25 a month Canadian. I try to keep it as inexpensive as possible. Um, I also have an ebook and so this is kind of bringing in more of the. [00:57:00] You know, if the nervous system stuff isn't like sticking the way that it didn't stick for me, maybe there's a few other things to look at.
And so, um, you know, everything from all the things that could be interrupting sleep that are in addition to nervous system stress, right. And then digestion and, uh, the immune dysregulation piece that I suffer, suffered, suffer from occasionally still, um, that kind of thing. So looking also into that. That side, and for those of us with those analytical parts, there's a lot in there about like polyvagal theory and the nervous system and like the science behind it all that isn't in the membership.
Membership is all about like, studying. Don't think too much. Just go and do it.
jessie_1_05-24-2024_110355: Yes.
squadcaster-a0fa_1_05-24-2024_120355: and get that felt sense of, of tending to your body and whatever is there. Um, some, some of those practices are, are more about just awareness. Some of them are like intentionally mobilizing and some of [00:58:00] its parts work.
And then the e book is, um, like the practical side of things. Like here's why it makes sense. Um, Uh, with the, with IFS, that can be particularly useful because it does sound pretty strange. Um, so talk a little bit about, about like the neuroscience behind it and all of that, which some of us have parts that need to know that before they're going to be willing to try anything.
So those are my two big offerings right now.
jessie_1_05-24-2024_110355: And where can people find you on
squadcaster-a0fa_1_05-24-2024_120355: Yeah. I'm felt sense Winnipeg. It's just felt sense WPG, all one word. And my website is just jennaham. com. So you can find all those resources there too. Yeah.
jessie_1_05-24-2024_110355: All of those will be linked in the show notes. Jenna, thank you so much for your time again. Hopefully we'll have another one
squadcaster-a0fa_1_05-24-2024_120355: Every just make it an annual event. Yeah.
jessie_1_05-24-2024_110355: Yes, exactly.
squadcaster-a0fa_1_05-24-2024_120355: You're welcome. Thanks for having me.