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The Uncommon Communicator
The Uncommon communicator is the individual that has the enlightenment, to recognize in any situation, whether or not communication has occurred. This uncommon communicator takes ownership of the conversation and possess the skills to navigate and facilitate the conversation to mutual understanding. Taking on the experts as well as the Sophist of old to help bring clarity to the lost art of true communications.
The Uncommon Communicator
E114B - Developing Trust With Jennifer Lacy
When was the last time you gave someone your full trust? This isn't just about believing they'll show up on time, but trusting them with the parts of you that you might keep under lock and key. Join us as we sit down with Jennifer Lacey, the 2023 Dallas Business Journal's Woman of the Year in Business, who not only shares her journey through vulnerability and trust but also provides us with an in-depth look at the hard-won lessons in her book, "Lean in Love."
Throughout our conversation, Jennifer peels back the layers on what it means to truly connect with others, whether it's with our children, colleagues, or the person we see in the mirror. From sharing personal tales of grief to discussing the nuance of feedback within our most intimate circles, this episode is a treasure trove of honesty. Trust us, you'll come away from this episode understanding that sometimes the strongest thing you can do is let your guard down and listen, really listen, to what others have to say.
Ending on a practical note, we delve into the concrete ways in which we can build and sustain trust, especially in the workplace. Jennifer, with her rich expertise in continuous improvement, gives us a backstage pass to the leadership strategies that lead to genuine rapport and collaboration. By the time you reach the end of this episode, you'll have gained not just a newfound appreciation for the role of trust in personal and professional growth but also actionable steps to invite more authenticity into your interactions. Don't let this chance slip by to learn from one of the most candid voices on communication and leadership today.
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That's right back to back throwbacks this week. This week I'm bringing in Jennifer Lacey, where we talked about trust. It was a great conversation and a cool journey to really understand how trust has such value in not only our relationships but also in our communication so important. But bringing back to back Jen Lacey and also Jesse, the social media mogul himself, back to back this week, so please enjoy.
Speaker 2:You want to talk right down to us, and a language that everybody here can easily understand. Do you understand the words that are coming out of my mouth? What Space, one again, space, one again. I dare you, I double dare you. What we got here is a failure to communicate.
Speaker 1:Welcome to the Uncommon Communicator Podcast, where we bring enlightenment to the topic of communication. I'm so excited today to have again on the show Ms Jennifer Lacey, known as the famous lady. She did not give her name to herself. Now a little bit about Jen. She's a Texas native with a background in teaching, and author and illustrator and co-host of the no BS. With Jen and Jess. I think you're the host because you're talking. You are a conference speaker. This is huge and I saw this on LinkedIn. Recipient of the Dallas business journal, 2023 woman of the year and business award. That's awesome, thank you. And the last 20 years you have worked for Robbins and Morton as a lean practice leader. Jen Jennifer, welcome to the show.
Speaker 2:Thank you very much. I'm excited to be here.
Speaker 1:Well, we are going to touch again on some more topics. I think last time it turned into soft skills. I don't think that's necessarily, probably even your best trait, but you're so good at it. There's so many other things that you build and trust, so there's a couple of things I wanted to jump into Now. You are also co-author of this book right here, lean and Love with Mr Jesse, something Hernandez or this guy. Yes, do you want to talk about how this whole book of Lean and Love came about? Real quick? Just kind of, I will try.
Speaker 2:Jesse does a better job, but I will absolutely try. So he and I crossed paths. We collided on some lean stuff. We were on a planning committee for a Congress for LCI, and me not willing to sit back and just watch what's going on. I went up and we had some really intense conversations and then, following that, he reached out and said hey, I've got this idea, have these letters and I want to do a live stream and get people to kind of talk about some of this stuff that nobody likes to talk about, and I want to do it with you.
Speaker 2:And so we kind of had more conversations, had some brainstorming, and then we dove in, did them via live stream, and then at the end a couple of things happened. Number one is we got a lot of people that jumped in and really wanted to be a part of these vulnerable, kind of uncomfortable things that we were able to help facilitate pretty well. And then people were like we need more of these type of conversations. So that's one thing that happened. And the other is that when we finished with lots and lots of hours of live stream I'm sure you know about that that people were like we would love a CliffsNotes version.
Speaker 2:And then Jesse said oh, no problem, we'll just edit down and go through all the scripts and all that and you know his patience is about this small. And so he started that and he went oh, this isn't going to work. And so he said hey, what are your thoughts on putting all this in a book? And so we did the live streams first and all of a sudden there was like oh, let's write a book and put it all together. And so, also based on the need for people to want more of these conversations, we launched NoBS with Jyn and Jess platform. So all of that came from like, just starting with that conversation.
Speaker 1:That's ridiculous. And then you're also at what anniversary right now for that, oh my gosh this month it's December.
Speaker 2:This month, for two years, where we launched and every other Saturday morning we do live streams around uncomfortable conversations, and at first it was a little bit geared towards like just construction, because that's, we both are in construction and in the lean space. But we realized, and it didn't take as long, that half of our audience are not even in construction, and so we realized that things we're talking about are not just limited to the construction industry, but they are like world issues and they are things that every human being that wakes up every day runs into these type of dilemmas and kind of sometimes, these frustrations. And so, two years this month, we will People keep showing up and so we keep getting to talk about these things.
Speaker 1:It's amazing how we think of constructions in this bubble and there's a bubble of construction, but it's. The problems we face are not unique to the rest of the world, especially in Even even in finding people to do work, you know, finding construction workers Everybody's dealing with some kind of mental, you know health issue, which is really some of the things that we touch on a lot in the no BS tribe, as well as this whole Vulnerability word that you've made me stay out loud. You know, absolutely new. I keep. Jesse gave me a pass, I finally figured it out and if vulnerability is only sharing the stupid things that I've done so others can get better, that's a level of vulnerability I'm willing to accept. That one I'll take.
Speaker 2:Okay, I'll start I.
Speaker 1:Didn't like to say in the word or talking about it, and you know. But we're seeing a movement, even within my own company, and I think that you guys are on the leading edge of it. You were talking about it before. It was cool. Really, now, if it's hitting mainstream, hitting companies that you personally haven't touched, where we're talking about it, then it's really hitting something that has found a nerve and that nerve is raw and it needs healing. Then the only way to heal it is to really talk about it.
Speaker 1:So those are one of the things that you know, you're really bringing a light to the industry in that and making it okay, which one of the things that I really admire about you is. I think we're similar in how we have stuffed our feelings away, how we shield. That's probably one of my best things that I do is guard those Feelings. But you've been able to go past that and I mean you've had you know, very you know difficult times in your life growing up, but how have you really? What was the turning point, what was your moment of enlightenment to be able to go to this point of vulnerability?
Speaker 2:well, there's probably multiple, but let's so.
Speaker 2:Historically, yeah, and I'm really, I've been really really good at the protection.
Speaker 2:So you call it shield, I call it protection, but it's that armor that, because of our experiences, because of our trauma, because of all the hurt, all the things in our lives that you know have we've allowed penetrate, we've realized like we can control that by just not letting things penetrate and you know, and that can keep us from again getting hurt, things, bad things happening to us, but it also keeps everything else out and and so, and we can focus, we can be successful, we can be high performing and and and that's great and we get lots of accolades for that, but we're also keeping a lot of good things out and and so what I'm gonna own this like I mean within the last Three or four years you know it as these conversations are happening, as even the stuff that Jesse and I have done together Like I've realized like there are a lot of people out there that live in that mode, that protection mode, and then I've got to protect what's inside of me and that's okay at the detriment of what's outside of me.
Speaker 2:And as a mother of two teenage girls right now, like you know, one's almost a teenager, the other ones 15. Like if I, if I show up that way, both places at human at work, like how I'm, how, how am I setting a good example for them?
Speaker 2:Right and so, as a mother, like you want to be protective and you want to make sure that you're helping them be good humans, but like I need them to be. Also, we understand the importance of you know being, you know being real, in that it's okay to hurt and it's okay to fail, and it's okay to learn and it's okay to like not be okay. And if they don't see that me, how could they possibly be able to show that to other people? So that's been that. I mean, all of that has happened over the course, but like that's a driving point as to when I show up and a lot of my stuff's on the socials, so a lot of my stuff's out there and anyone can watch it, including my daughters, and so what am I doing to be able to be the, to exhibiting the behaviors that I want? To make sure I can see it?
Speaker 1:So your moment of enlightenment came in realizing that you also need to model it for your children. So you, they, don't have to go through 20, 30 years of Shielding is that? Is that right?
Speaker 2:Yes, and it and it's not always easy, and there's a lot of tears and there's some screaming and there's some yell. I mean, like that's parenting, but it's also within the end. Are they in a place to where, like it's okay to hurt, it's okay to fail, it's okay to make a mistake, like the world's not gonna come crashing down? Because I mean, like we keep, we shield ourselves, you know, to not make mistakes, to have all the answers, and Like it's okay for me to go? I don't know that like let's look it up, let's figure it out. There's not a lot of people that figure that out early.
Speaker 1:Right, yeah, and then that's what I fear I'm on that path towards where I'm gonna figure it all out when I'm 90, right, when I take my last breath, maybe a hundred, I don't know. I should eat better to live that long. But you're right, you want to figure them out earlier. I know for us, especially now, because this really does tie to the no BS tribe and this idea of dealing with vulnerability is our family as a history does not talk about grieving.
Speaker 1:Very well, we were terrible at it and and I looked through this process here recently we recently had to put our dog down, which was first one, ever, the hardest thing any human could ever do to make that decision, and you don't realize a connection that you make with that. But having to now deal with those emotions that I didn't expect and and having to try to model it to my children, who I haven't shown even how I grieve for my dad Was one, was not at all, and then for my mom I lost it, like I could not even, you know, communicate or talk through it, and now I've got McGee to talk about, and so those are all those steps, those processes, but although those are all come into the idea of vulnerability, like how much it's stuffing. It was so much easier.
Speaker 2:But I find our industry does that, like our industry does that, like I don't know why. We think like we're dealing with trauma or we're dealing with grief, and we then we go to work, and how do we not equate that every other human being that we look at every day and engage with could also be dealing with With those exact things?
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's so true, that's so true, so moving. So one thing I want to do I want to talk a little bit about the book and the reason. Of course, you're here to talk About communication, as this is what the podcast is all about, but everything kind of weaves into it as some way. But when I look through the book, lean in love. Beautiful illustrations in here as well. You are the illustrator of that.
Speaker 1:When I, when I read through it and I read the gen comments I did I'll tell you this is how I dissected this book. Like I spoke with Jesse and I've read through his book of stories, which was just a brilliant, brilliantly put together has become the promise that you're intended to be. But this one here Just kind of to understand Jen a little bit, and so I went to your comments, read through them. What are they always about? They're about communication, like it's communicating, and trust, and there's so many things that that come out from From what you present. But this is an interesting story here and Well, quick format for our readers.
Speaker 1:First off, as you talked about, this was a live stream, so you took the live stream notes, comments, questions threw them into a book. There were five things. It's really the five s love letters. So you took five s scene, turned it into these love letters and this is how you can work through relationships and communication, stuff like that. So in taking that, going through those steps, you do there's just blurbs. Here's quotes like here's some great advice, here's a question, here's some tips and stuff like that, but here's a story that you shared. You can't rush communication. I have two girls. One is really good at math. She is walking me through her division problem. She needs help. Something is not jiving. I started to tell her what the problem was and she said no, mom, let me walk through the process. As she was walking me through it, she saw that. She saw where she hadn't subtracted right. She needed to fix it herself to learn.
Speaker 2:It does that. That's one example of a thousand of and I've had this conversation recently with a friend is that, like we want to make our children's lives better and we've experienced and we've done some things that we learned from. We can help them, but how did we learn? We learned by not having someone help us and by having to figure it out. Our automatic response is like we can fix it, we have the solution. We have a whole other thing that Jesse and I do with emotional bungee jumpers that it's like I need to allow you to keep your problem. It is not my job to take your problem away. Let me ask questions that help you be able to get where you need to be. It's a prime example of that of not being the person to jump in and fix it, because how would that help her?
Speaker 1:Yeah, we're driven by it. It's almost super cool. If you were extreme one way, then you want to go and solve the problems. I think Jesse coined the term shanking. What is it the solution? Shanking. That seems the easiest solution and it's not.
Speaker 1:I think that's been one of the biggest challenges for me is to let people walk it through and learn it themselves. They're going to learn it deeper and better. I think that what a great example. However much our kids teach us that. But that was such a great example of she stopped you. If she didn't stop you, you're going to give her the answer and she never would have solved it on her own. That multiplied a billion times into everything we do at work.
Speaker 1:In fact, for me, I've taken a lot of that. When people come to me with problems, I used to just give out the answers, go do this and boom, we're on. I don't anymore. I ask them first. What's amazing is, most of the time, high percentage. They already have the answer. They're coming to you ask you a question. They already have the answer. Why don't you give me your answer? Then we can just cut to the quick and then they own it. I thought what a great example, but I love that you can't rush communication. For me, I'm always like, all right, I know what the next steps are, let's just get to them, let's move on. But you can't. You have to let it grow. That was such a great story illustrating that it had the word communication, so I had to jump to that one. No, that's it.
Speaker 2:I just want to add to that. Justine, I have this conversation. A lot is we're busy, our words are busy. We're always in this mode of what's next, all the things we're trying to cram into our day, and that busyness makes us rush communication.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Because we're not thinking about the moment, we're not thinking about the person in front of us, we're not thinking about the issue, we're thinking about what's next. That example hit it, hit straight on. It's not about what I'm trying to hurry up and get to after she's done with her homework. What are we doing right now, in this moment? Do you call me out? That's what it was.
Speaker 1:Right, right. What a life lesson for all of us to learn. That was just brilliant. I love that there's another one, of course. It's titled Keep Communicating. Of course I gravitated towards that one. Here's another quote from Jen. There are different ways to communicate. Nonverbal communication is one example. Being clear with what we are thinking and feeling is critical in guarding against sending mixed signals. There's even being able to say I need to step away or I need some time Can save the 20,000 scenarios we make up in our heads from happening. Walking away could dissolve the situation or feel it.
Speaker 2:Okay, there's a lot of package to that chunk of words right there. It's a couple of things. I think it's more than a couple of things, but we'll talk about a couple of things. Number one is those scenarios we make up in our head, the what ifs, based on just our experience and the things we've done. It's so easy to jump to things that have never happened, that may never happen. Those what ifs keep us from making progress. Those what ifs keep us from being able to see the potential of what something could be.
Speaker 2:An example of this and it's one specifically is I love to take notes. That is my way to capture things, but also to get things out of my head so I can keep adding more things into my head. I love taking notes. I take notes pretty much in every conversation or if I have a thought or an idea. I'm like I got to write that down because I don't want to lose it.
Speaker 2:I was having a conversation with Jesse talking about how I'm struggling with reflection and things like that. I struggle with reflection because I have to stop and I have to not be moving to be able to reflect, which is like crazy. We were having this conversation. He's like well, what do you do he journals? I had tried some other things, to no avail, but they did not work. I said, okay, I'm just going to walk because I enjoy walking. I'm going to use that walking time as reflection time. For me, it's like, okay, if I'm going to do that, then I'm not taking any notepads, I'm not taking any earbuds, I'm not taking any phone. I'm going to use that as reflection time.
Speaker 2:What I realized in that time is that I had an idea and I was like, oh my gosh, I've got to write this down. I didn't have anything. I kept thinking and that idea grew and grew and grew. Another idea came from that, another good idea came from that. It got so big by the time I finished walking that my reflection, it hit me in my face. You would have never got there if you stopped and wrote down that very first thing, and so to me, it's the inability sometimes to allow ourselves to disconnect and walk away and get out of the middle of the chaos so that we can identify or see something that maybe would have never happened.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And so you bring up, I think, a key point in any communication and really any collaboration, any battle, because I think we go into battle mode and when we're in battle mode we're going to hit that aggressively until we get our point and get out. But the idea that that's not effective in communication and I think that's one of the easiest thing for people to do is to take a breath and walk away, take time to collect your thoughts at a high level and you're going a little bit deeper in that. You're saying you do that and then now you're able to go yourself into a better understanding of it that you never would have got to before. So there's so much and there was a lot to unpack in that one, because in fact I was looking at that thinking, man, this is probably three or four bullet points that thrown out in a you know, in a quote. And then it's like all right, let's move on. And I'm like why am I going to? Let us?
Speaker 2:Can I add one more? One more example from just unpackaging from that. That section is going back to my daughter. Is she over things? And she escalates. And she, you know, her anxiety skyrockets and so she then becomes worst case scenario. And what do you do as a parent when your child is spiraling or your child is not doing well? You want to fix it and I and in those moments like I realized I just want to get to the solution, I want to get to where she's better, and I did nothing but exacerbate it. And like it took more and more times about fueling, and I'm fueling and I'm fueling it, but I, but I can fix it. I can fix it because I can fix things. So like that was not the way to do it and like I had to remove myself and I had to allow her to get to a place where she could even receive Right. And we don't think about that when we're interacting with people.
Speaker 1:The other thing too is no, I mean you know your daughter like you're learning her still. I mean there's, she's still going to continue to evolve. But understanding people as well to knowing that some need to be in that battle, other other people need that time to you know, exchange. One thing that I've realized is that I think out loud and that's good and bad, and I found like I have frustrated some people by just shooting ideas out there and you know I'm like here's an idea, here's an idea. He's like slow it down, like you wanted to process each of them. So we had a really great moment, learning moment for me to learn him a little bit. But the thing I learned about myself is that isn't effective for this individual for sure. So I have to know how to regulate that and change my style in doing that. And this is kind of a sidebar on that, jesse.
Speaker 1:I asked Jesse for some feedback on our interview. I'm like give me what you tell, give me some little bit of feedback, and he's loves giving feedback, which only if you ask right, and I'm going to change. But what I found is I clarify my questions a lot Like, instead of just asking a question, I just clarified and I caught myself the other day doing it because I don't know what I'm going to ask yet until I have processed it out loud. So that's, that's something I got to work on, because I can't, for the most part, me always clarifying and then getting to the question. I should be getting better at practice in my head for other people who don't respond well to that. So just all that. It's just an interesting process on on how to deal with all of that.
Speaker 2:But that came from feedback too, which is, we is, super important. We know that communication, that having that reciprocal conversation and having someone provide feedback and being in a place of trust where you could know that the person that's telling you that is coming from a good place and that they are. You know, they're one of those people that you know are trying to help you Like that's a big deal.
Speaker 1:Well, as we talked about even last weekend in the live stream. One thing that, just another revelation for me is I realized that I, you know I'm my own worst critic and that's one reason I haven't been inviting in other people, because I'm my own worst critic. Like, why do I need you to criticize me? And it's not feedback, is not criticism. So that allowing in of people to you know, help, guide me and help me get better has all been driven off of that issue of trust. Do I trust them enough? But also, for me, taking a little bit step deeper is to not let people's opinions, thoughts, whatever, affect me, like I might have take all I can, but I'm not going to let it put me in a bunker, in a bad mood or anything. That mindset alone has allowed me to even get even more feedback, because before to me, it was always criticism that's criticizing myself.
Speaker 2:Well, it's the best response. It doesn't matter how horrible that you feel from the feedback is. Thank you, and it's so simple. But, like as soon as that's the response, it keeps the door open for more.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:Whether you like. I mean whether you go to them again later or not. But as soon as there's so many people and I'm going to tell you they do this, and it's not even I don't even think it's conscious, I think it's subconsciously that when someone says something to you or somebody gives you feedback, your responses to defend it and it's not. It's like you're doing it because you're in protection mode and we just talked. We talked about that. You're in protection mode, you're trying to protect yourself. But, like then, why did you ask?
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that's that's. In a situation where you're asking and getting defensive and you're in, I would say, even a little bit level of trust with somebody, Even then we become different. And the one thing I learned from Jaco Wilnick is he talks about how, when somebody is like criticizing you hearing the background or you just hear somebody just talking bad stuff about you that there's always a grain of truth in there that we need to accept. And once that hit my mind and I thought, okay, there is a grain of truth. Okay, yeah, you're right, I do need to work on that Instead of letting that anger me, upset me or hate that person. It's like, all right, there's a grain and there always is. There always is a grain of truth. Now, if they may be slanted, maybe they're just miserable people, but there's a grain of truth in there and if you can take that, then you become better by learning from that.
Speaker 2:And what I've realized, what's helped me when I get feedback, good or bad, or even when it's something that, like before, would really hurt my feelings that if someone's saying it, they believe it, yes, and they in my opinion I can say they're wrong. But if they believe it, it's what they feel. Is it wrong?
Speaker 1:Right. But the other thing and I've given a little bit, I'm trying to give a little bit more grace in that I tend to. I'll sometimes say things that I don't mean either, and so I want to. That's why remaining calm is the best thing to do, to ask a clarifying question and then allow that person to say well, that's really not, I didn't intend it that way, Understanding that your intentions still hurt, and so you have to be able to pull that back. But the idea is, are those the right words that you chose to use and give an opportunity for that to maybe steer a different way? So there's another quote from the book. There's another. I don't know if it was Jen or not, so if they're not Mark, Jen or Jess, who's writing this stuff?
Speaker 2:Normally, usually the copy is conversational and so it's not specific, so it could it could be in any way.
Speaker 1:Well, this, this one really connected with me because, in trying to find out what, what, what is my purpose Like, what is the uncommon communicator purpose? To bring enlightenment to the topic of communication. But what's the deeper purpose of that? And I have really, probably in the last six months, realized that I want to help give people a voice and I can do that through learning communication skills, through learning techniques, through learning how to be heard is going to elevate you. So that has become my, my kind of underlining theme. I haven't told this to anyone before, but that's what I'm working on and this is what you said on. Let's see, I'm not page numbered, page number heart. People just want to matter.
Speaker 2:Yes, oh yes, that is like and that's burning my soul.
Speaker 1:They want to be heard and that's why I'm like bam, this is exactly it. I need to hear Jen's take on that, because they they want to matter, but they also to be heard. You got to speak and, yes, there's a lot of communication nonverbally, but you need to speak, you need to be heard. This is what I was. You said they want to be respected. When we go into any interaction and put people first, it will change the way we approach the conversation, and so we're focusing on personal relationships. Now we save them. How or I'm sorry, how we save them, how we stay in them, how we value them, how we evaluate them and how to keep them viable. It is no different in the workspace. People want their work to matter, to make a difference.
Speaker 2:Tell me more about that one. Yes, so my story behind this is when we think about and I'm going to use construction because that's the space for you, I'm not construction. I don't know many people, and I'm not saying there's not any, but I don't know many people that wake up in the morning and they go. You know what I want to get hurt today. I don't get hurt so bad that it impacts the financial. It has a financial impact on my family. I want to go and I want to screw up something so bad that I can lose my job and that I could hurt somebody else. I want to go, show up and get in an argument with someone because I know I'm right that it will sever a relationship. I don't know many people that wake up and think that way.
Speaker 2:And so, when we look at it from that context, people come into an environment, a culture, an interaction and something whether it's emotional or something. They've got some. There's got some emotional baggage that they're bringing in, that they're already in this defensive mode. Something happens and, like, the way we react and the way we respond to things is so important. But not only that what environment and what culture are we creating when these people come in. That in my, my, my visual is always like we don't have people that come into our construction site and they get to the gate and they take their human hat off and they put their hard hat on and they come in and then they're just there to produce outcomes all day long and that humaneness just doesn't play into anything. And then they get to go back through the gate, put their human hat back on and go home. Like those things don't stay inside and outside the gate, like they're bringing all the whatever the things are happening at home, their issues, any, any health problems, anything going on there, that all comes with it. And then when they're at work and they've had a big fight or something, somebody got hurt or you know something went wrong and they're now they're gonna have to work later, whatever, they're not gonna just be able to shut that down when they walk back out of the gate.
Speaker 2:And so when I say people just wanna matter, like all of them, the whole human, they want to matter, not just they wanna make money and they wanna make sure their family's okay. And so when we can look at that whole human and that when they're at work do we only focus on the outcomes they produce or do we focus on the person? And I think, historically, because it's construction and because the outcomes pay the bills, and the outcomes are how we make money and how we can judge things and how we can have metrics and all these things the outcomes are easy to be the focus, but, like, if we're not shifting our attention and our engagement and the things that are important to us into that human part, to the person that's doing the work, like we're failing. We're failing ourselves, we're failing our companies, we're failing are the people that we work with, because they don't need to think that that's the way the world works.
Speaker 2:Like they are human beings first and if we focus on that, I've experienced and when I see that environment put in place, they do better work. They get excited about helping other people and having, like you said it earlier, they get excited about sharing and something they see or something that they saw that they're a little worried about. Like for us having that platform to be able to go I don't think that's right or this may not be safe. Like when you've created something to where it's okay to care about the person first. It is a game changer.
Speaker 1:And big time and looking at it at kind of two levels here too. First off, caring about them and who they are, just acknowledging that. That's item number one. Just even hey, jose, how's it going today? That is the first step in knowing everybody on your job, knowing everybody that they're human, they're there, they have stuff going on.
Speaker 1:I had a carpenter on my job recently. I knew about. His son came and worked for us. He joined the Marines during that timeframe he worked there with us. I had learned about his other kids and so you learn about all of that factor. And he was probably one of the most productive people that I've had on my job sites and would do anything Like well outside of what would just be his defined scope of drywall studs and framing stuff like that.
Speaker 1:But that's all part of building that relationship. But the other side of that so that's side number one acknowledgement. But the other part is really about being heard and drawing that out and that's what I love about that. And again, this is my passion now is knowing how much is left on the table. Because for two reasons we don't ask. So you gotta ask.
Speaker 1:It's gotta start with leadership. Leadership has to ask, but also they have to be given back to that, your point of making that space open enough for them to give their opinion. And that's a tough one to do in some situations because as a leader those are hard to manage and I'm finding some people don't have that skill set to be able to say no, like hey, thank you for sharing that. But in your mind you're like that's the worst idea I've ever heard. But you have to let them have that idea, because two ideas later they're gonna come up with this huge time saving effort but all of that. Those are the part of being heard, but the biggest part is the fact that you acknowledged it.
Speaker 2:They love it when you've released control of the conversation and to me, like we love to have the agenda and everything set and this is what's gonna happen and I'm gonna make sure we're stay on time and you are controlling the conversation. As soon as you think that you are controlling the conversation, you are leaving zero space for there to be anything that's off topic, anything that takes you off road, anything that could potentially be something amazing. Like you have completely shut it down because you're trying to control it and like I mean, like I struggle with control and I'm a work in progress, for sure, but like it is, like it controls an illusion. Like it is an illusion because if we're controlling one thing, we are completely negating something else.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that is a. So we're gonna talk a little bit about trust. Okay, do it. But what you're talking about falls right along the line of trust, like I've seen within some leadership, where they want to control it and everybody sees it, they know where you're going, they're talking about it and they're, like you know, telling you this, and then you're shaking your head and what they're doing is back to your illusion of control. Is we have that? I mean, there's so much psychology in how we lead that, but people that are in the know the know that you're being led that way and there's no buy-in, there's no authenticity to it, and so you can and lead and guide that way, but then it does lack that trust that falls within that whole idea. You lose the trust.
Speaker 1:So, jumping into this book, the Speed of Trust, it's a book that I've listened to several times. I read through. It's a Stephen MR Covey, it's Stephen Stun, I guess, wrote the book and dad helped him out. But there was something that really stuck out for me, which I think fits into our conversation, interesting enough, and I challenge you to read this book because there is a lot of value in learning trust and that's one thing that I'm practicing, I'm learning, I'm understanding a little bit more about myself. But this is so funny. He says, well, one of his 13 principles so in this one particular principles get better to build trust. And I'm like what is this even fit? And he says get better. And that's one of his principles is based on the principles of continuous improvement. Are we in that space?
Speaker 2:talking about this.
Speaker 1:And listen to this. Learning and change, like continuous improvement, learning and change it is what the Japanese call Kaizen and it builds enormous trust. So reading through trust, and now we're talking continuous improvement, all of those things. I just thought it was a strange connection. I hadn't put the two together. But do you feel like the continuous improvement path that you're on I mean, you're the process continuous improvement leader for your company Like, do you think its main principle is also building trust?
Speaker 2:Yes, 100%. And so the reason why is that, yes, I'm in a position where I get to engage with all of our projects, all of our departments, all of our people, all of everybody that comes into our company. I get to have interactions with them, and some of those people have not been on this 20 year journey with me or been on this 10 year journey with me. And so why, when I go into a room to facilitate these conversations, why would they listen to me? And there's moments and it's not me, not imposter syndrome of why would they care? It's me going. Why would someone come in a room and listen to what I have to say or do? If I ask a question, why would they answer? And for me, it's because even some of it's implied, just because they haven't engaged with me enough, or because of the support that I have within our company, from our leadership, that the trust is there, the integrity is there, and because of that, because of the platform they give me, because of the support they give me, they trust that whatever I've been asked to do, that I can do it. So there's that part. I think that's true. There's multiple things of trust, but part of it is do people that have tasked me with something trust that I can get it done, and sometimes they don't know what that could be, because my thinking may be way in front of where we are as a company, but they trust that because of my body of work, because of the things that have happened, that we're gonna get there. And so there's that trust, which I think is huge, because not everybody I engage with I have a relationship with. The other part of that is when I do get to engage with our people and our projects.
Speaker 2:How do you build trust? And like? That's important, because I don't think people think about that like they should trust me because of my title. They should trust me because I've been here and I have experience and I've done these things. That is not how I earn trust, because those are not things that I'm able to show up and go. You just need to trust me because of this, this and this.
Speaker 2:So how do I immediately put them in a place to where they're like? This person is genuine, this person is real and they're going, they care about me and this is a word you don't like very much, but I'm gonna say it. It starts with vulnerability. It starts with vulnerability, and how does vulnerability tie to trust? Is that if I can get to a point where I take down that armor and that protection and they see that I am a human and that I genuinely care about them and I'm going to expose myself because I want to be able to connect with them? It is amazing what they're willing to do, what they're willing to share and that it happens one time, james, one time, and I will never forget them and they will never forget me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the whole idea of continuous improvement, building trust, especially fitting into what we do in construction and for what you do as your day job. This is your night job, I don't know what, I don't know. We'll cut that out, but the idea is, when you're a self-improver, so we'll go at that level, not just improving well, let's start with this your improving processes that make work easier, right? So?
Speaker 2:those they make work better, better, better. Yeah, because it's not always easy, because I have behind me I have a sign that says work hard and be nice to people Like it's not gonna be. It's not always gonna be easy and you're gonna have to get up and it's gonna be tough and you're gonna have to get your hands dirty, but it's worth it.
Speaker 1:But you're looking at the hands I hear you've mentioned that before too right, you're looking at the hands, you're looking at the feet, you're making that work better for them. So that improvement is a process that's building trust. To say, I see you and I'm gonna help you. You may not even see it, because you're right in the work right there. So continuous improvement at that level is building trust. But the other thing is self-developers as well too. For me and this is semi-unpopular is I have this theory of prove me wrong, and people don't like that. Like you should never prove the superintendent wrong. I might have proved me wrong, but here's the background to it is prove me wrong because then I only become better.
Speaker 2:Right, I learned yes.
Speaker 1:I have. Now you've proven me wrong, but I have done nothing in doing that other than now made me more right. You've proven me wrong and now I'm more right because I'm taking your information. But that type of scenario, that space, that area that you've opened up really does bring in a certain level of trust because I'm willing to accept your feedback and apply it and then now we're all become better for it. It's just such a neat circle of growth. I think that comes through trust, through continuous improvement.
Speaker 1:The one thing I do like about this book I'm a big summary person. They do summarize the behaviors which, if you summarize anything with me, if you're given a training, if I'm in a Gen Lacey training and you gave me some paper that summarized it, do you know what I'm gonna do? First I'm gonna go to the summary first. I'm gonna see. Okay, this is what she's gonna talk about. Let's see how much time gets wasted through all these other stories or where they beneficial some terrible that way. But they did have a summary and of course, I went to the summaries first. But this is the summary of this whole idea of getting better at this behavior, continuously improve, increase your capabilities, be a constant learner. Develop feedback systems, both formal and informal. Act on the feedback you receive. Thank people for feedback. Don't consider yourself above feedback. Don't assume today's knowledge and skills will be sufficient for tomorrow's challenges, and you have a saying for that.
Speaker 2:What are you talking about?
Speaker 1:So you have a saying that escapes me, as well as hoping that it would connect, but it has something to do with what got me here.
Speaker 2:Well, you won't get me there. Yeah, 100% it won't if we live in a space of like, we've reached where we're supposed to go. We're done like. We're done Like. You'll have a moment in the glory, you'll have a moment of success, and then you're gonna start right back at the bottom.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that's exactly what they said here. Don't assume today's knowledge and skills will be sufficient for tomorrow's challenges. I like the way you word it better, because it's more concise and it really nails it, which is what got you here won't get you there. It's the same thing. What I think was fascinating, though and this is why I wanted to kind of tie all this together at the end of our conversation is tying into this book that you haven't read yet. Yeah, you will.
Speaker 2:It's on my list. I told you I'm not gonna get to my list.
Speaker 1:Everything that I have read in this summary is all the things that you have talked about in the idea of building trust through continuous improvement, so I just thought that was a neat tie together in regards to that.
Speaker 2:So Jen, and I wanna add one more, just based on your summary is a lot of times people don't give us feedback because they're worried about how we're gonna respond. So we hit the part on how we need to respond if we're asking for feedback. But I also know I've got some people that I hold in high regard and anything they tell me I would receive it and I would realize that they care about me. And when I've asked them for something, they're like well, I don't wanna wanna share this with you because you may not like it, and I'm like oh, whoa, whoa, like let's why, why would you not?
Speaker 2:Because of the first, some of it is like not rating things that tie to you directly. Some of them didn't rate them very high. I'm like well then, that's even better, because now I know there's a gap on a specific project and that's something I can do to get better. But and they know me yet they, because it was tied directly to me, they were worried that it would be something that I would receive. Well, and so it's like we've gotta make sure that communication is open both ways, not just when we ask for it, but setting the stage so that people are willing to give us something when it's not a fun conversation.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that's that takes a very deep level of trust, but also skill. I think there's two of those involved in that. Because I'm not very good at that I'll admit that right now, as I like bringing in the fluffy stuff right. I wanna encourage you to pump you up to where you're going, and there's times where I'm learning. I've got to be better at giving those type of criticisms or critiques or evaluations. So, because you want to hear it, you know I need to know that you wanna hear it, because I'm in the same boat too. As I get. I don't get enough deep enough criticism because of my position and I think by nature we're not very good at it. A lot of people aren't, and all of these things don't help us improve.
Speaker 2:Well, and because I think they're uncomfortable, like when you have to sit there and give feedback that's not, that's kind of sticky and yucky, or when you're in a place where you're, you know that the feedback you could be getting could be a little bit like not great, like no, it's an uncomfortable space, and you could either make it as uncomfortable and awkward as it has been, and it will continue to be the way it is, or you can diffuse it and turn it and flip it upside down. And to me, that's what I try to do. I try to build the relationships and have the conversations and push those things to where, when they know they're bringing me something, it's like, hey, jennifer, da, da, da, da da, and then we keep moving and then I act on it and I make a change and they go. I need to give her more feedback, like that's what we've got to do.
Speaker 1:Wow, that's great. So that's great. You build momentum to get more feedback. They want to give you feedback. Yes, fascinating. Well, so what, while we wrap things up, if you want people to get ahold of you, how do they get ahold of Ms Jennifer Lacey?
Speaker 2:The best way is LinkedIn, like if, again, you can go to my specific page, jennifer Lacey if you used to a search, you'd probably find me. And then also if you go to no BS with Jen and Jess, same way, like they're kind of I'm out there on both platforms, that's the easiest way and then connect with me and I will be happy to help and support my sometimes to a detriment, just based on feedback I get sometimes. But I will share and I will help support anything that anybody needs. If they want an example, if they want hey, what about this? I have a thought. There's so much out there and we've lived in this place of protection and I don't want to share my secrets because someone else may be as good as me and I don't live in that world. So I am willing to share and connect and if somebody needs something, if I don't have the answer, I have people around me that do, so happy to help.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I so much appreciated, and I think, what you're doing for the industry as well, as I'm seeing others. It used to be, like you said, that we're very guarded, protecting our interests. You know you work for a general contractor that's probably double the size of the one that I work for in the billions right. But I've sat on some other superintendent committees with some folks through Adam hoots companies across the country that are sharing these improvements so we can improve our industry and make us better without that, you know, feeling of competition because we're all here to make work better, as I found not easier.
Speaker 2:It's got like, like James, your company is not going to get all the work, my company is not going to get all the work and they're going to be trades that work on my, on my jobs that are going to go to your jobs and they're going to go to another place. And if we're looking at this as an industry issue and an industry Solution, then when trades leave me and they go work for you, it's going to make your jobs better. And you know, I'm saying it's like what we've got to look at this, bigger than just an individual silo, like this, is a network that when we make things, we make people better. Then they're going to go and do better things in other places, which makes our industry better.
Speaker 1:Exactly, yep, and that's that makes us all better. Yes, all right. So this is our time for the uncommon communicator moment. This is the time where you know, for the last hour or less, that we've been chatting. I want to sum it up. What? How would you sum up our conversation? What's the one thing that people could leave with today from today's conversation?
Speaker 2:so I think the summary for me would be that the feedback and trust conversation I'm going to try to put it together is that you cannot dictate trust. And so what are you doing, what intentionally are you doing to create that environment and and being able to walk into where someone will actually Listen to what you have to say, and that trust feeds into the feedback. So, like, don't just don't make assumptions on trust or feedback, but like you have to say it, and you not only have to say it, you have to do it. And so if they watch you and your actions don't match what you're asked with their, what you're asking them to do, then it's going to fail. So you've got to exhibit the things that you want and and then it will come back to you. And so for me it's it's the trust you have to earn, but you also, based on your support, you can. You can walk into a room and have it, but you have to feed into it to be able to let them know that you're the real deal.
Speaker 1:So you can't dictate trust, you have to show it. Yes, I sum it all up yes. Well, that's all we've got for today.
Speaker 2:Thank you all, bye, bye.