Embracing Imperfection: The Authentic and Liberating Journey Toward Spiritual Renewal

Have you ever wondered what lies at the heart of true community and spiritual growth? This soul-stirring episode is your invitation to uncover the profound effects of authentic relationships, as we're joined by Curtis Anderson from Wild Courage. Reflecting on his charismatic church upbringing and the bonds formed within supportive brotherhoods, Curtis imparts the wisdom of embracing each man's unique journey and how collective encouragement fosters unparalleled growth.

Struggle and surrender walk hand in hand in the quest for perfection, especially within the realms of faith. We grapple with the exhausting cycle of sin and share revelations from Michael Cusick on the tiring pursuit of appearing flawless. Yet, as we peel back the layers of pretense, we stumble upon the liberating truth of imperfection. It's in this space of vulnerability and open-hearted spirituality that life begins to flourish anew, leading us toward a vision of transformation less about external shifts and more about internal renewal.

Our final thoughts extend a heartfelt thank you to you, our listeners, for being a part of this enlightening conversation. Your stories and engagement breathe life into our community, and we cannot wait to accompany you further down this path of discovery. Whether you're navigating life's turns with Wild Courage or simply seeking camaraderie in vulnerability and acceptance, remember this: it's within the garden of shared humanity that the most resilient of spirits are cultivated. Join us on social media or our website to continue the dialogue—your insights could very well shape our next adventure in the Foxhole.

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:08

Welcome to Foxhole Symphony, a podcast about the transformational value of men in authentic community.

Speaker 2: 0:14

In our foxhole. Men are equipped to build relationships that foster belonging, accountability and growth.

Speaker 1: 0:20

Stop believing the lie that you can thrive in isolation and instead join us on the journey from broken to whole.

Speaker 3: 0:27

Hello everyone. They call me the Maestro and we are back in the foxhole where we actively pursue belonging, accountability and growth through authentic relationships. No masks, no agendas, just iron sharpening iron. Steve and Mark are in the foxhole and they're ready to go, and they have a good reason to be excited to get started because they have a very special guest today. You know what time it is, everybody. Open your favorite notes app and settle in. They're coming in hot in three two.

Speaker 2: 0:58

Hey, welcome back to Foxhole Symphony Podcast. I'm Sarge here with my good friend Mark, and it is so good to see you, brother you too, man hello how are you loving the big smile? You know we've had these last couple of months. It hasn't all been smiles no, no, there's.

Speaker 2: 1:16

There's been a number of mornings where I've shown up to record and I'm looking at you and your eyes twitching and I'm, you know, I've got a tear running down the side of my face and or a vein popping out of my forehead, and this morning I feel like it's just. You know, the sun is shining, hallelujah, right on you and on me, and so I think this is going to be good. Yeah, I think this is going to be good, and once again, we come a little unprepared, but God has been doing some great stuff in our unpreparedness.

Speaker 1: 1:46

Yeah, and, I think, unprepared from the perspective of we don't have a cheat sheet A script. Right, but we have several guests today. We had Mr Robin Redbreast yes, come right out the window Digging in your new mulch Right Making a mess Playing with my mulch. And we also are honored to have Curtis Anderson with us from Wild Courage, curtis.

Speaker 4: 2:07

Hey guys.

Speaker 1: 2:08

Good morning, morning, yeah, it's great to have you with us.

Speaker 4: 2:11

And I'm honored to be here. I was. I did hear some robin redbreast on my morning walk this morning and I'm in a little bit of a different time zone than you guys, so it looks like the sun will be shining, but it's not quite up yet here.

Speaker 1: 2:33

Well, this simply proves Sarge, that the Foxhole Symphony will go to the ends of the earth to find good guests, in this instance, three time zones. We're dragging our friend. He's an Idahoan, right.

Speaker 2: 2:42

Yeah, god is doing something and it's been really cool. It's been great to just connect with a string of awesome brothers in Idaho and, yeah, excited to hear more of what God is doing out there around the fires and in your life, curtis, and so we know you grew up in a Christian home and in the church and you know I just I love that because sometimes you know and let me just back up you know the fires that we're talking about for people that maybe just jumped into this episode, you know we're referring to these just authentic communities around a fire through the ministry Wild Courage, and it's all about testimony. It's about sharing stories of what God has done in our lives, what he is doing in our lives, and sometimes you know we feel like we need this. You know rags to riches, you know sort of trauma, story of trauma and redemption, in order to feel like we have a story that's worth telling.

Speaker 2: 3:48

And that always kind of bothered me a little bit. I remember hearing from people many years ago just saying like, oh, I don't really have a story to share and what they mean to say is I haven't really experienced trauma. And it's like whoa, wait a minute, praise God, and I'm not suggesting you haven't, curtis, but I just you know the little that I do know about growing up in a Christian home and in the church. Sometimes people like that can feel like they don't have a story to tell. So tell us a little bit about you. Know your journey starting out.

Speaker 4: 4:22

Sure. So, as you mentioned, know your your journey starting out? Sure, so, uh. So, as you mentioned, uh, sarge, I um grew up in a Christian home.

Speaker 4: 4:31

Uh, my, my parents, came to faith in Jesus, uh what we would refer to growing up as the Jesus people movement. Uh, uh, back in the early seventies and, uh, they went all in, they went hard, uh, which was which was great and which was a blessing. And I grew up in a really strong, charismatic church community in Alaska. The whole thing right, just Christian school in church or home group or some version of a faith community, you know, two or three, four times a week, and it was amazing and beautiful and so connecting. I think one of the things that it did for me was really show me the power of community, because in those in faith communities like the one I grew up in, it was just really there's just so many people loving on you, you know, and so many people to connect to you as you're growing up.

Speaker 4: 5:25

And it was there, in that community, I met my wife. We were high school sweethearts, got married in college, moved to Seattle with plans of heading back to Alaska at some point, but just found community in the Seattle area where we raised our family until about 11, 12 years ago. We moved to Boise uh, to Boise, idaho. We have four children, four amazing children, and now two uh, with two boys, two girls. And we have two uh, we're we're blessed to have two grandkids, a boy and a girl, um, who live fairly close to us.

Speaker 1: 6:05

Oh, that's sweet.

Speaker 4: 6:05

We're diving into that. Oh my goodness, it's amazing, that is awesome.

Speaker 1: 6:10

Can hear it in your voice.

Speaker 4: 6:12

Yeah, oh well. We get to spend some time with them a couple times a week, which is just beautiful, and it's a blessing right when your adult children choose to still hang out with you. Yes, they have choices now, yes, and that's true, like that's an honest feeling that my wife, christina and I both have, is when we get to spend time with our kids or our grandkids. It's all icing on the cake now, because they get to choose where they spend their time.

Speaker 4: 6:39

And we still get to be fairly close to them on occasion, which is really great.

Speaker 4: 6:42

But with all the good, I guess, of the church community and I can't overstate the good that I experienced growing up in faith I came to learn how to navigate and build an identity in that community based on, you know, I guess I would say in the story of the prodigal son being the good son, right, yeah, do, perform, serve. Certainly, experience the love of God and encountered the power of the Holy Spirit many times in that and encountered the power of the Holy Spirit many times in that. But also there was just a lot of identity, what I would call misplaced identity. Yeah, that was built into my growing up and that just hit the ground running at a Christian college and then jumped into a faith community as a young adult with my family in the Seattle area and again, I can't overstate the good in that. That was so transformational in my life. But also just learning how to navigate the politics of church and building an identity, that was really a lot based on performance and on believe, right, do, right, serve. You know all those great things, right.

Speaker 2: 8:13

Isn't it interesting how? You know, like I said, I, you know, some people's stories involve trauma. You know, and, and you know, and, and others, you know, like, like you, curtis, you know, and others, you know, like you, curtis, you know growing up in a Christian home and you know a loving, loving, you know church, community, and yet you know, in both of these stories or these pathways, you know, there's still this identity seed right, this identity seed right. There's this like this, this there's still, you know, no matter what right, there's this, uh, this longing right, deep, deep in our hearts, deep in our souls, for identity that we look to attach to, Right, and, and, and some of that is defined by trauma and sometimes it's defined by, like you said, the, just, the good right, the, the, the, the, the need for acceptance and belonging, and so I've, I've got to, yeah, more of that, more of that right, like almost this insatiable hunger.

Speaker 2: 9:19

Again, these are my words, but it's, it's just kind of interesting. As you were talking, I'm like, wow, you know that there is that common thread, you know, tied to identity, as you said.

Speaker 4: 9:29

And I think, I think at some level and I don't have this all figured out in my head or my theology or my psychology, but I think at some level it comes back to shame and I don't know where that all starts, but it comes back to back to an innate feeling that we're not enough, yes, and that we have to, whatever it is that we take on, to become enough and to gain acceptance. You know, like, even growing up in, like I said, an amazing church community that was full of dysfunction and beauty and all the things, community that was full of dysfunction and beauty and all the things but at some point in my mind it seems to come back to shame and what we do to cover that feeling that we're just not enough.

Speaker 1: 10:14

Yeah, oh, I think that's well said, absolutely. And that shame and just reading your bio a little bit, Curtis, and feeling what you were saying, that shame is so tied to judgment, right, I mean it's. We feel this way about ourselves because and the fill in the blank is, in my community there are people looking at me this way or this way or this way and then all of a sudden becomes part of our identity, right, that shame becomes part of us and it's, yeah, yeah, rooted in that question of will I, in that question of will I ever be enough?

Speaker 1: 10:45

Right yeah.

Speaker 2: 10:46

Will I ever be enough Right, or what do I have to do to get whatever it is? I feel like I need you know because of that void and or that woundedness, no matter how traumatic or not traumatic, it was Right. How traumatic or not not traumatic it it was right, so that you know whether it be again on the on the ball field or you know as a four-year-old in the workplace you know picking up my toys or not picking up my toys, right, I mean just whatever it is.

Speaker 2: 11:18

What are those messages that we heard that that either planted that seed or watered that seed that the enemy planted right Sure.

Speaker 1: 11:27

And the world tells you over and, over and over this is the way it is.

Speaker 3: 11:32

Yep, you're supposed to feel this way.

Speaker 2: 11:35

Right, you got to have a little shame. Yeah, you did shameful things.

Speaker 4: 11:39

Yeah, right, I think for me, if I just ask myself the question of where that came from, I think that you know, I think a lot of it came from just an idea that, yes, we're saved, so to speak, by Christ, but then this incredible pressure to live right and in the push, really, for perfection.

Speaker 4: 12:07

You know, and I think, in knowing you know, even as a young person, that I didn't have all that together, but yet the pressure of the community around me in my home, outside of my home, was really a perfectionistic, uh, legalistic culture, and none of that, none of us can attain to. And I think that's one of the challenges of Christian community, at least the ones that I've been around, is this whole idea that you know that we have to show well, and, yes, we've been accepted by our Lord, but you better get your crap together because you're now a new creation in Christ and, just like everybody else you're seeing at church, you got it all together and I think that was one of the challenges of the community I grew up with in the home and in the faith community I grew up in was just this push for um, what you couldn't show, and if you did, boy, you were. You were on the outside, yeah.

Speaker 2: 13:09

Yeah it, it. It goes by. It reminds me of ceaseless striving right.

Speaker 3: 13:12

It reminds me of Michael's.

Speaker 2: 13:13

Michael Cusick and and you know those episodes early on, episodes 12 and 13, I think, where we, we, we talked about. I mean it was about, well, we talked a lot about porn and sex addiction, but that's not really what it was about. What it was about is this ceaseless striving to be better, to do better to you know. To do yeah.

Speaker 1: 13:35

Right and Michael was about being not doing, and it's an exhausting cycle.

Speaker 2: 13:41

It's an exhausting sin cycle. Yep, right, that is you know sort of. You know kind of takes God's grace, puts it in a jar and puts it on the shelf, right, and says, okay, like I guess it's there if I, if and when I really need it or want to access it, and then I'll bottle it back up and go back to.

Speaker 1: 14:07

Last time I tried to open that jar it was stuck Right. You have to tap the lid a little bit, run it under hot water. Here's what I do. I'm not going back there.

Speaker 2: 14:16

I'm like old school Italian. I grab a knife and I just go, poof and I punch at the top and my wife looks at me. And I grab a knife and I just go and I puncture the top and my wife looks at me.

Speaker 1: 14:25

She's like well, okay, can't seal that up again.

Speaker 4: 14:29

That's how we roll. But honey, it's grace.

Speaker 1: 14:35

You can't have enough. It's grace, yeah. So, curtis, you use some great words. I'm remembering what you said to us about perfection, performance and pleasing right the three Ps that pointed towards the environment you found yourself in, and and we tend to take and pleasing right the three Ps that pointed towards the environment you found yourself in, and and we tend to take that on right.

Speaker 4: 14:47

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 14:47

That that I need to be perfect. I need to perform. What do you call it? Show well right, yeah. And and Sarge is a people pleaser.

Speaker 4: 14:57

Yeah, I have to go ahead, curtis, if you don't know and if you don't, there's fear there because you know, like I can think of young people I grew up with that that didn't choose that path, and just to see how, what their trajectory was in that community when they didn't choose to show well, when they didn't choose to please. You know, growing up in those legalistic environments and it's like whoa, it's a message to everybody, it's an unintended message to everybody that you better show well. And I don't think it's that different for many of our churches at one level or another. Again, I'm part of it and so I'm not throwing stones from the outside. But the pressure that we feel as adults in most faith in, in most faith communities that I've been around, as great as they've been, it's interesting to show well and do well.

Speaker 2: 15:47

Yeah, a couple of things you mentioned there. One is the, the, the fear, right, like um, and there's a number of them that could you know, come up, um, and, and one of them, you know one of them that comes to mind is like, especially in a church community, is like, if we don't stay polished right, like first of all there's the implications of what it means for me and my own soul, but then there's okay as a community of faith, if we're not different from the world, if we're not and we are set apart, of course, but if we're not all polished and perfected well, then we won't be able to lead others to the Lord, we won't be effective. It's like, boy, is that making God small, isn't it? Wait a minute, wait a minute. God needs me to be perfect in order to reveal himself to those people. That's some screwed up theology, but my head it makes sense.

Speaker 4: 16:47

Yeah and I, and as a, as a as a subscriber to that at the different points in my life, I can say the arrogance of that is incredible. Yes, when we really get down to it, that's a good word. It's. It's like as if, as if he needs me to be this way in order to accomplish his purpose.

Speaker 2: 17:06

Yeah, Like come on Right Instead of instead of like, what's the? The alternative is, you know, open up our hands, get, get real, be authentic, be vulnerable, seek, you know, seek grace, seek forgiveness. Model, model this, this authentic life which really just all that does is put him back in the position of being Lord rather than ourselves.

Speaker 1: 17:33

Right where he's supposed to be Right where he is anyway.

Speaker 2: 17:36

Right Just requires me, to you know, acknowledge that I'm not God.

Speaker 1: 17:43

Haven't you heard him say you're?

Speaker 2: 17:43

welcome Steve. You're welcome, steve, exactly, exactly. But you know that fear, just acknowledging that fear, like how many of us acknowledge that fear or talk about that? Well, you know, do we even talk about that in our faith communities? Like, if you know, if what happens, if you know, like, isn't it all up to me to guide these people to the foot of the cross in my perfection and my polished nature, so that they can see my transformed life and listen? It's interesting because there's threads of truth woven in there, and then, of of course, it's really messy too and gray, right. And so what does that transformed life actually look like, or supposed to look like, right? And that's a great conversation to have.

Speaker 4: 18:40

I was actually around the fire the other night with some of my good friends, uh, in wild courage, and the the picture came to me and you just asked the question what does that transformed life really look like? And the picture that came to me was the picture of like I don't know, I'm not a car guy, but just the most most pristine, perfect Ferrari you can imagine and the beauty that's present in that. It's perfect, right, the lines are tight, the paint is flawless and there's an appreciation for that. And I think, as Christians, we often are trying to build that type of life right, where the lines are tight, the paint is perfect, the thing performs flawlessly. And the other picture I got was that equally as beautiful but way more messy, is a garden right, where there's life and there's death and there's beauty and there's this organic process of composting and all the things. And like two different kinds of beauty right, one is the, the beauty of perfection and just a well-oiled machine. The one is the process of growth that happens in a garden, yeah and uh, and I think that's more of what our faith walk is supposed to be. And yet many of us try to show well, I think I've used that word enough already, but I try to attain to this perfect model.

Speaker 4: 20:14

Sure, yeah, I think another piece that I would add that has been a significant part of my journey is the believing right. Just for me personally, you know the theological pieces, right? Yeah, unpack that for us. What do you mean by that? Okay so and this is just me talking I came to believe that. My, how do I say this? I came to believe that my ability to believe right and to have right theology because I grew up in a strong, both as a young adult and a child, in a really strong theological community, as well as all the other things strong theological community as well as all the other things, like my ability to believe right about God and to have my theology in order would determine where I ended up Right.

Speaker 4: 21:14

So, if our, if our faith is based solely on our ability to have right belief about God and again, it's important to have right belief about God but if I'm worried about, am I going to make it in or not based on this theological idea or that theological idea was very stifling to me and very, very hard to process out of, and I'm still in the process of that, like um, and so I guess that's that's what I mean, like if heaven or hell, and my ability to you know if it's believe right, believe, confess, accept. You know all of our, our traditional um formulas for salvation. I'll call it Um. The belief piece was a big part. So what it did, is it just destroyed curiosity? I had to believe right to feel like I was in right standing with God.

Speaker 2: 22:12

Mark's got a spreadsheet for that.

Speaker 1: 22:13

Yep, yeah, mark's got a spreadsheet I can help you Connect with me after the podcast and I'll show you the exact path to and an abacus.

Speaker 4: 22:23

No, I feel that, I feel the weight.

Speaker 2: 22:24

I feel the weight of that, you know, as I, as I hear you Absolutely, and and please go ahead.

Speaker 4: 22:32

I just said, as somebody who's already wired towards trying to be perfect, trying to believe right was a significant you know. Just didn't allow me to ask questions Like what do I really believe? What do I really think about this? Because I had to get it right and right was whatever I was being taught Right. It's also a path of least resistance, right, curtis?

Speaker 1: 22:51

I mean, part of that is just our, our human desire to like oh, I can reach the goal without. Oh, no, no fuss, no must, no stress, right, and it doesn't. Let's be honest, it doesn't work. You also give me the segue we take at least once every podcast, and for me, I think, first of all, many, many men will resonate with what you're talking about. I know I do, and my way out of that, my catalyst was authentic community. It was other men, I, you said, I'm still processing that. I got processed to death and I had a certain capacity for processing and then found that I could be honest and vulnerable with other men, without judgment, and find mercy and grace in places I never thought Different than I have with my wife or family, or at work or at church.

Speaker 1: 23:49

These guys this group, we have a group called Victorious. Together there's five of us. These are my brother. This is your circle, your fire circle, and these men have allowed me to process that by telling me some truth, by what they see in me, what they hear, what they feel I can, I can, I can tell. So I I'm simply saying that, at least for me, and I'd ask you what was your epiphany or catalyst that maybe you had processed to the extent of your capability and then needed to look elsewhere?

Speaker 4: 24:24

Yeah, I think the catalyst. One of the catalysts was just through a series of events which I don't need to go into depth on as it's not super relevant as far as the what happened but we ended up really kind of being exited from our church community where my wife was on staff and we were all in right, so performing all the things we've already talked about in a great amazing church community that we ended up you know all churches well. I don't want to speak ill of churches because I think they're amazing and I'm not anti-church in any means, but you start to see some of the I would say how the sausage is made, right, everybody wants to eat the sausage. Nobody wants to see how the sausage is made and getting caught up in some of that, we ended up leaving our church and, in a moment right, identity, community, belonging, all those things which were so, which had been such important parts of our lives and had been beautiful parts of our lives in many ways, was gone, uh, in, in the snap of a finger and uh that that, combined with just some roadblocks, I was hitting at work where it was just like wow, you know, I'm, I'm on to keep climbing right the mantra of growth, where it was just like, wow, you know, I want to keep climbing right the mantra of growth right and I always want to be growing really was you're only as good as your last achievement.

Speaker 4: 25:54

And I started hitting some roadblocks there and then just coming to terms with the impact that my desire to be a perfect dad and perfect father because I had a need to be perfect starting to see how that had impacted our kids, really started turning some lights on for me and uh, which culminated again in uh leaving our church community that we were overly involved with and, in that, losing friendships, all the things you know. It's not an uncommon story. How? How will it's? Yeah, it's not.

Speaker 2: 26:21

It's not uncommon, um you know it's not an uncommon story how, how old it's? Yeah, it's not. It's not uncommon, um, you know I hear of it more and more and I'm first let me just say I'm sorry that happened to you. Thank you, Um. How old were your kids, you know, at that at that time?

Speaker 4: 26:33

This time, uh, two were out of the house and one was about 14 and one was 16, 17 at that point, yeah, and so, uh, so Christina and I made the decision, uh, to not reenter a faith community. We actually felt led to do that, which was quite freeing, right, not to jump back into church. Uh, both out of love for our kids our two youngest kids, who had seen and been around some things that were just hard for them to process and I think it would have been really unloving for us just to hop back into the next neighborhood church without giving them space and also for ourselves. We gave ourselves permission, for the first time in our lives we both grew up very similarly to pursue a life with God and to pursue a life with Jesus outside of our tradition. Pursue a life with God and to pursue a life with Jesus outside of our tradition. And that was freaky and scary and all the things, and really things went dark for a while and probably a year, year and a half, into that journey.

Speaker 4: 27:38

And so, once you start, allowing yourself to ask questions and what things can unravel quickly to ask questions.

Speaker 4: 27:45

And, boy, things can unravel quickly and and I felt the grace to do it and I felt that God had led us to that, but it certainly was an unraveling of sorts.

Speaker 4: 27:51

And and in a year or a year and a half or so into that, uh, brian, my good friend Brian, who I've known almost since the day I moved to Idaho, had been telling me about this thing called wild courage that he was involved with, and at some point about three years ago it was like, okay, I'm ready to just kind of see what's out there, because no community right, like you talk about. So I'm trying to process these things with my wife and I and a few really close friends, but but no community at all. And so visited a fire um, uh, a little bit leery of leadership at that point, and uh, found just great leadership and low control, which was this beautiful combination for me, where guys are being can be their authentic selves, you know. And then I saw an authenticity and an acceptance that I had never seen before and it just resonated with me so deeply.

Speaker 1: 28:51

Wow, do you? Do you remember coming home and your wife Christine saying so?

Speaker 4: 28:58

how'd it?

Speaker 1: 28:58

go. How'd it go, how was?

Speaker 4: 28:59

that.

Speaker 1: 29:01

See, you're laughing. I'm thinking of the smile because I've been having some men's meetings in my basement for a few years and my wife always says so, how's your meeting?

Speaker 4: 29:12

And she's not looking for any dirt.

Speaker 1: 29:14

She doesn't want to hear anything about what happened. She's looking for my face. So tell me, do you recall that?

Speaker 4: 29:21

It still happens and it's kind of a. It's kind of a joke and attention here, because I'm I'll leak eventually, but if you hit me when I go to come through the door, it's going to be fine, because I'm also a processor so it's gonna be.

Speaker 4: 29:33

It was fine, it was good. Oh no, not fine. Yeah, so that it was good, it was good. You know, we'll kind of see it was. You know it was. Uh guys, you know it was different than anything I've ever said. I think it was so impressive to see the strong leadership present, but the lack of control was really was was something I noticed right away and and then, you know she knows, over time I'll start to leak a little bit. Before you know it, she's asking hey, what is that? Are you going to?

Speaker 2: 30:07

You're going back to that.

Speaker 4: 30:09

Hey, and she sold, she'll still do it. They don't make it everyone to everyone and we have busy lives and I still, I still get the question of hey, so do you? You know, you guys, is there one coming up, you know? So she obviously began to notice the difference.

Speaker 1: 30:24

You need to go yeah.

Speaker 4: 30:26

And then that trans has transitioned at times into I wish there was a fire for for women.

Speaker 2: 30:31

Well, that's what that's what I was going to ask you. You know, with, with the shift in community, you know so you you, you get plugged in to this new community, which is obviously, you know, a tremendous value, you know. And so what is the last few years looked like for you know, for your wife and for your kids? Have they, have they found that community for themselves?

Speaker 4: 30:58

I think it's a work in progress. It's a work in process still. Yeah, all of our kids are obviously adult. We're empty nesters now and so having them each on their own journey. But I think one of the things it's done at least I can speak for myself in regards to my kids that this whole journey has done for me, which I hope they feel, and I don't know that they do, but it's just released me from feeling like I have to control their faith journey. Yes, I have to worry about the outcomes for them and pressuring them to do right, believe right, serve all the things you know.

Speaker 2: 31:44

So it's allowed me, uh, the space just to be like listen to Curtis Sounds like it sounds like a new man, yeah.

Speaker 4: 31:51

Yeah, is God who he said he was, or is he not? Is he big enough for my kids? Do I have to save them? All the things, right? Yeah, all the things. And so what it's done in me is that and I hope they see, and in my wife, christine, as well, I hope they see, and that freedom that that I'm experiencing in my own heart and I'm able to pass on to them.

Speaker 4: 32:12

Yeah, I think one of the most impacting things in my uh, initial encounter with the wild courage community was, uh, the retreat that we went on, the first retreat that I went on, um, I, you know, I make my, I've, I've learned to navigate my world through being able to be articulate and, uh, communicate my thoughts. I've, uh, you know, preach sermons on the love of the father and and like it's just all these things. And yet I found myself in this really, really dark place, honestly, and, uh, and I go to the retreat and I I don't even know what to expect, right, and the first thing is, you go into the this place and they're like well, we're not talking about our vocations. And I'm like okay, so what are we talking about?

Speaker 2: 32:59

Right, there's. What else is there? I don't have a church to talk about, you know.

Speaker 4: 33:03

So there's this awkward piece of where you're trying to, which is amazing because then it eliminates a lot of comparison and so on. But we, we had a series and it's most of the ministry retreats I've been at and I've been to some amazing ones outside of wild courage, you know. It's 80, 90, sometimes a hundred percent teaching right, teaching right, yep, and it's a little bit of fun time and you get some meals together. But this was flipped upside down so it was maybe 20 of somebody sharing. I wouldn't even call it teaching necessarily and then the rest was small group time and then I got placed in this, the most amazing group of guys, and I'm sitting there.

Speaker 4: 33:43

It's like okay, and the format was you have about an hour, hour and a half just to share your story, right, and then allow the leader facilitates some questions and it's pretty loose ended and just kind of see where the Holy Spirit leads and your other group members have opportunities to ask questions and just speak into your life and and they're like, and I'm like the speak first guy, like that's typically me, you know, I'm like I'll go first who's who's sharing first and I'm like I sure as hell I'm not sharing first, like you know, I don't, I don't even know what I'm gonna say.

Speaker 4: 34:16

I'm just I feel like I have uh, I don't know, I call it like blunt force trauma inside of me, right, and I just know it hurts. I don't know where it hurts, but my whole identity has been unraveled here in the last year and a half and I know, I know it hurts but I don't know where it hurts. And so you know, we go through the weekend and it was, it was beautiful, and then our last session is is my time. And you guys, I had no idea just getting really real. I had no idea being angry and being angry at God was never part of my theology or practice, but as I began to share the authentic pain that I was holding inside and had been holding inside for quite some time lots of words which I will not repeat here, causing me to get in touch with my inner F, you more than ever.

Speaker 4: 35:19

Yeah, because being a good church kid, that wasn't something I did. Sure of stuff and processing, and to be met with such grace there it is and such love and such acceptance and such validation was like. Here I am at my worst. Yeah, that I've that, you know. As far as from performer Curtis, here I am at my very, very worst and I met with guys that are like bro, I'm so sorry bro, I hear you, bro, you know, just just the love that I experienced in that, and no preaching, nobody quoting scripture to me which is important and good, but no judgment, and it was just like they're in it with me.

Speaker 4: 36:19

you know they're in it with me right in the middle of my mess. You know they're in it with me right in the middle of my mess. And to experience that was the beginning of significant transformation.

Speaker 1: 36:31

It's life-changing right.

Speaker 4: 36:31

And did you?

Speaker 1: 36:32

find yourself. I found myself looking. In those moments in my life, which are many, I occasionally find myself looking over my shoulder like can I keep going here? Like how deep can?

Speaker 2: 36:45

I go right, how deep is? This pool yeah, right, well, that's, that's exactly right. It's this incremental peeling of the layers. And then you know, all of a sudden, you realize by the end of the weekend you're down to the nub, or at least what you think is the nub.

Speaker 2: 36:58

And yeah, and, and all of a sudden, there's, there's still no judgment, there's still just love, and and, and all of a sudden, there's still no judgment, there's still just love, and all of a sudden, there's this realization that you've finally experienced the father's love. And how tragic, how tragic that we have to wait all these years, how tragic that we have to go through an entire life, you know, void of that, how tragic that that is so elusive, in, in, in, in our culture and in our faith communities and in our, in our families and in our worlds. And, and that is exactly what we're talking about. That's exactly why this podcast exists. That's exactly why wild courage exists. It's exactly why it's what. That's exactly why Wild Courage exists.

Speaker 1: 37:44

It's exactly why it's what we're called to.

Speaker 2: 37:48

I mean Right. So you know, it's that.

Speaker 1: 37:51

Yes.

Speaker 2: 37:53

Like there it is.

Speaker 4: 37:55

It's organic and it's ugly and it's smelly, and yet it's so life-giving and beautiful, curtis, you shared with us. It's so life-giving.

Speaker 1: 38:04

Yes, you shared with us. You said I'm going to quote you there is so much redemption when true vulnerability meets acceptance and love. Yeah, I'm going to say it again and I'm going to ask you to unpack it. There is so much redemption when there is true vulnerability meets acceptance and love.

Speaker 4: 38:25

I said that no, I'm kidding.

Speaker 2: 38:27

You're like hey, that's good, that's good stuff, that'll preach guys, That'll preach. All right, Unpack the redemption part of it, because the rest of it we just touched on. But like, yeah, unpack that part.

Speaker 4: 38:44

What is dead and or dying and or of no value can come to life. That, to me, is redemption right, and I'm looking actually outside at my garden bed, so maybe that's why this metaphor keeps coming to me, don't?

Speaker 4: 39:01

get me started when, when we can, uh, when we can have an environment where we can be our truest version of ourselves, whether we're flying high or we're at the lowest of lows, and and that is met with love and acceptance. Um gosh, it's supernatural, that's the best way to describe it. A supernatural transition can occur where those dead and dying places of our heart, of our experience of our past, of our own sin, nature, if you want to call it, where those things can be transformed and bring life to ourselves and to those in our community. I think one of the beautiful things about the fires, too that has just been so, so interesting to me is I can be sitting and we go around a circle and you probably heard it from the other guys, but often it's just like hey, let's share out, right, you know, one to 10, where are you at? And I can come in as a, as a three or a one or a 10. And let's say I come in as an eight or nine. Things are looking great, you know. I've had a great week with my wife. Things are going great at home.

Speaker 4: 40:17

I'm feeling like I'm making some ground in my relationship with the Lord, and the guy next to me, you know, is just at a one or a two, and again I can't. It's hard to articulate because it just happens. But listening to him and and hearing where he's at in his story is often so life-giving to me and I wish I could think of a specific example and then come to mind. But, like even him being his authentic self encourages me, it's. I wish I could articulate it better, guys. I don't feel like I can at this point, but it's just. It's something I've never experienced before where somebody can come in and share and be not doing great or doing great, and yet I'm gaining things from almost every person that's sharing around the circle.

Speaker 1: 41:06

It's beautiful. Oh, we totally understand that. It ignites something within us. It literally turns a switch right. The Holy Spirit turns something on in you and exposes something to you that you haven't experienced before.

Speaker 4: 41:21

And it's right.

Speaker 1: 41:23

It's a moment of it's almost like being a kid on Christmas. It's like, oh, and you open this and you had no idea, right, what was in there and what he does for us. That, you're right, that's absolutely a product of true, authentic community. You sit back and you listen and and the the wind of the spirit like this washes over you, yeah, and you find yourself in a puddle, in a chair, going what, where did that come from?

Speaker 4: 41:50

yeah, and it's, it's it's the power of the spirit, right, yeah, absolutely, it's mysterious and beautiful and wonderful and it's taking somebody else's heart or my heart, uh, hard things and bring beauty out of it in my life or in somebody else's life. Like, where does that happen? It doesn't because we're so busy covering and hiding, right, true, and you know it just doesn't. It doesn't happen.

Speaker 1: 42:18

I was going to let you off the hook with the garden metaphors, but I can't, since you brought it up. A third time I knew it.

Speaker 1: 42:23

Yeah, I knew it. I'm a gardener. Right, we are family gardeners. We're out in the part of New Jersey that is all trees and horse farms and fun stuff. But that life cycle you were talking about about, when redemption or death and dying feeds new life right In the garden, all the things we-unquote throw away into the composter and use as food for next year, it's look, how far does it take the three of us to get to jesus on the cross, where his death and dying fed us new life, right his blood. So, come on, man, we're. We're speaking the exact same language and I love the fact that you're looking out your window at your garden, because that is the story to turn all those things into turn, all the the hard things or the dying things in our garden.

Speaker 4: 43:27

What does it take to turn those things into compost? Right, it's exposure. Right, it's sun, it's wind and rain. Uh, if it's air, and if you take those same things and bottle them in a jar, put a lid on it and come back a year later, you're going to have a stinky mess of unusable crap. Right, but if? But? By going through the composting process and I think there's some application for us here Absolutely At the same time, you take the same pile of crap that you put into the bottle and sealed, you take that and expose it to air, to light, to water. You turn it on occasion to re-expose parts that aren't exposed. That's where the life comes, and I think that's what happens. That's what I've experienced at our fires, because we're never there, right, we're never, we, never, we never arrive, but it's just the continue. It's an environment where the soil, the compost, whatever is continually exposed to life and light and turned, and in that there is just so much beauty that comes For me.

Speaker 1: 44:40

What you're talking about is that light in life often comes from that man sitting next to you who is checking in at a one or a two and telling his truth, right. Yeah, this all ties together so nicely. I love when God does that.

Speaker 4: 44:55

I really do yeah.

Speaker 1: 44:57

Bro, this is great, this is like really awesome. Yeah, I love the conversation.

Speaker 4: 45:01

Yeah, me too. I've got a little something I wanted to share. Go, I love, love the conversation.

Speaker 1: 45:04

Yeah, me too, I've got. I've got a little something I wanted to share. Go ahead, no, please you go. No, you go ahead.

Speaker 4: 45:09

All right, I think so. One thing that, uh, that I wanted to add that's been really transformational for me in this process is when I don't experience shame or blame from my brothers. It enables me not to have a window, to not shame and blame myself, which has been so transformational to me, just at home, every day, in areas of weakness and areas of struggle. It has enabled me, instead of if I'm not being judged by others, right, and others aren't taking the place of God in my life, then it allows me to not take the place of God in my life and to judge myself and shame myself in areas that I struggle with. And it enables me to be curious about the areas that I struggle, whether it's purity or addiction or whatever. And instead of hiding out or trying to exact judgment on myself, I can ask myself the question of I can be curious, I wonder where that's coming from. Or, hey, I have a desire right now to, you know, go get on the internet and look at something I shouldn't. Okay, what's going on there? Instead of just hiding from it and or trying to take the place of God in my life and judge myself, I can be curious about that which has then allowed me to get some answers right and to seek healing in areas.

Speaker 4: 46:54

It's not the behavior modification version of faith and Christianity. It's the transformational version where it's not just, hey, I'm not going to do these things anymore, and when I do I'm going to beat myself up and hide out or whatever, but I'm going to be able to open my heart to the Father and be like, hey, there's an area, there's a little boy in here that needs some healing and that's why I want to go to this thing to get that healing. And because I wasn't being judged by my brothers, I was able to take myself off of that judgment seat as well. And it's been quite transformational.

Speaker 1: 47:29

Realize it's a lifelong pursuit, right, it's not, we're not in this to check the box anymore, and I'm a box checker man, I love the list so I can cross things off, so I just smile. So but that's not what this journey is about. The work in process is a lifelong pursuit. I have told Sarge and the men I trust in my life I want you gathered around my deathbed saying good job, bro, keep up the good work, because you're going home.

Speaker 1: 48:14

It's a good journey that you're on and we've journeyed together. I often use the phrase and metaphor that we are bent, not broken. I know it's easy to say, oh, I'm broken in my sin. You are bent, not broken, is just works better for me because it helps me stay the course. That makes any sense at all, Absolutely, Absolutely. I'm going to share something with you in closing. Our friend Chris Bruno shout out.

Speaker 2: 48:40

Chris wrote a book called Sage, I think we shout out to chris just about every episode since he's been on I heard his name I'm telling you

Speaker 1: 48:49

it's great and the book's called sage sage a man's guide into his second path, you would love it actually yeah and I'm bringing it up to you because it occurs to me that you are in the sage part, the sage sage zone of your life and learning while feeding other men. And he says something very clearly and I'll get my old guy glasses on here the sage occupies his space and no more. He no longer needs to prove himself to anyone and he does not need to be the most important person in the room.

Speaker 4: 49:29

Yeah, oh man you're, you're killing me, yeah.

Speaker 1: 49:34

Now, yeah, Marin, marinate on that one for a while. I'm not even going to tell you what page it's on, so you can read it for yourself.

Speaker 4: 49:40

Couldn't recommend the book more, but that those three sentences rocked me, yeah, yeah, and they're rocking me right now as you share that with me.

Speaker 4: 49:51

I just had some conversations with my wife over the past couple of weeks. We were able to vacation together about, um, about where I'm at with that, and it's a dying process to get to that point with that. And it's a dying process to get to that point. Yeah, and it's a painful process because I don't. I still want to be the most important person in the room. Yeah, same, some level, right, absolutely, but, yeah, but that's not what's there for me right now, and, or I should say, I still want to think I'm the most important person in the room, both vocationally and in my faith, community and so on, and so I I termed it kind of the uh, the art of the descent right Versus ascending, ascending, ascending, and I'm right, boy, that just rocks me. Thank you for sharing that with me, cause that that very clearly articulates a point of tension in my life. Right now that I'm, the lights are just going on for it.

Speaker 2: 50:43

Here's a. Here's a question I'll ask you, curtis, and I know we're going to close here, but tied to that, tied to that, something for us to ponder. I'm asking myself as well I got the mirror up here what is it that I would get if I were the most important person in the room? What do I get Right? Person in the room. What do I get Right? Because there's there's, there's something there right that need that.

Speaker 2: 51:09

I'm looking to fill or fulfill by being the most important person in the room right Is is a dry well, but that need, that need for whatever it is, is it acceptance, affirmation, love. You know, whatever that hit of dopamine that you know God, you know God, jesus wants to meet that need every day every hour and is more than capable if we allow him, and so. But I have to continue to go back to that and say what is it? What is it? What would I get if right it's?

Speaker 4: 51:43

a great question it what would I get if, right, it's a great question and then taking that need if I'm hearing you to the father and saying this is my need and I'm taking that to you instead of trying to strive to be or to get that from somewhere else.

Speaker 2: 51:57

Yeah, and he's faithful to provide it. He's faithful to provide it. He just wants us to ask him.

Speaker 4: 52:08

Psalm 118. I mean Read it yesterday or the day before.

Speaker 1: 52:12

Yeah, it's a fave, the two by four I have here next to me. That says his faithful love endures forever.

Speaker 2: 52:17

Mark's got a dent in his forehead, a permanent dent in his forehead, from Psalm 11, uh, psalm 118.

Speaker 4: 52:26

It's beautiful though.

Speaker 4: 52:34

Yeah, I grew up with reading Psalms with my dad uh every day we'd read five Psalms based on the day of the month, right. So if it was the 28, we'd go 28, 58, 88, 118, 148. And day and so I recently actually, after listening to your podcast and I think it was you, mark, that was talking about scripture and uh and um, which has been a huge part of my life and my my faith walk, but hasn't been recently it really inspired me. I'm going to start doing what I used to do with my dad. So what, two days ago, on the whatever it was the 28th, I was, I was reading Psalm 118. So you got me there too.

Speaker 1: 53:08

All right, all right. Praise the Lord. Well, curtis, we thank you. This has been great and we appreciate your, your open heart and soft heart for sharing with other men. We we hope that every episode of the Foxhole Symphony podcast reaches and touches one man's heart. That's our constant goal. One man will hear this and turn right, just turn towards the cross and turn towards Jesus. So thanks for helping catalyze that, for us Well.

Speaker 4: 53:37

Thank you, it's an honor. It's an honor to be asked to participate, and I have thoroughly enjoyed the experience. And just hearing you guys how you interact together too is beautiful and fun and wonderful, so I appreciate it. And you got me with the last quote from the Sage book too, so I have received more than I've given for sure.

Speaker 1: 54:00

It's a paperback.

Speaker 2: 54:02

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 54:03

Amazon right now. It's a good one, yeah.

Speaker 4: 54:05

You won't be able to put it down. Yeah, okay, well, I'm going to order it right now.

Speaker 2: 54:09

Thank you, brother, and thank you for listening to another episode of the Foxhole Symphony podcast. As usual, hit us up, send us a message, a note. We'd love to hear from you. How has this episode impacted you? And, yeah, we just encourage you to continue to lean in to not just who you are, but who you are in Christ truly and, yeah, without all of the need for performance or the need for production, but to just be present and be you in Christ. So, brother, good to see you again. I love you, love you, god bless you Peace. So, brother, good to see you again. I love you, love you, god bless you.

Speaker 3: 54:46

Peace. There are a few things I just heard that have me thinking and I want to take some time to see how it applies to my life. One is the power Curtis found by making a commitment to a group of men that gather for authentic community. He mentioned that even when he showed up to the fire and was feeling great life is good, wife and kids are good and he checks in at 8 or 9, and the man next to him checks in at a 1 or a 2 and pours his mess out in front of his brothers. Curtis was spiritually fed in that moment as he sat and listened to his brother. No judgment, no teaching, no preaching, no advice. God not only lifted up that brother who checked in broken, but he gave every man in that circle a front row seat to his grace and healing and love in the midst of our humanness.

Speaker 3: 55:41

Another thing was a powerful comparison Curtis made when he said behavior modification versus transformation. You know now that I had some time to think about it. I would say behavior modification versus spirit-filled transformation. One is powered by us, by our drive, by our strength, man-powered. The other is powered by Holy Spirit, by faith, surrender and trust, god-powered. Let us know what you thought about this episode and give us feedback on what you want more of and less of. We would love to hear from you. Give us feedback on what you want more of and less of. We would love to hear from you. Lord, please continue to use this podcast to impact the lives of all who listen. I ask that you would bring hope and healing to each and every one of them, meet them right where they are and reveal yourself to them like only you can do.

Speaker 2: 56:42

In Jesus' name, amen. If you enjoyed today's episode, please share it and invite others to the Foxhole. You can find us wherever you download your favorite podcast. Be sure to subscribe so you know when new episodes drop, and please rate us and comment there too, as it'll help us get found by others who could benefit. Find, follow and like us on your go-to social media networks by searching Foxhole Symphony or visit foxholesymphonycom to make it super easy to find us. Drop us a line with feedback, questions, topic requests. Who knows, maybe you'll be a guest on a future episode. In the meantime, prepare to move, embrace discomfort and just be you.