Space Travel AND Self Belief with Helen Sharman, the first British person in space

It all started when Helen Sharman heard a radio advertisement that said they were looking for an astronaut, no experience required. She applied, beat out 13,000 applicants, and became the first British person to travel to space! Ilham speaks with Helen about her incredible journey from a young chemist to becoming an astronaut; how she had to believe not only in herself but also her team; her love of chemistry and science; and the discipline it took to make her dreams a reality.

In May 1991, Helen traveled to the Mir Space Station and spent eight days orbiting the Earth. The mission, called Project Juno, was a cooperative arrangement and would enable the UK to send one of its people into space for the first time. During her time at the Mir space station, she conducted a variety of experiments including medical and agricultural tests, protein crystal growth and how new materials perform in the environment outside the space station. Since her return from space, Helen has been heavily involved in communicating science and its benefits.

Timestamps
01:40 - Upbringing and love of chemistry
05:24 - Becoming an astronaut
08:23 - Focus on the journey
10:13 - Flying into space
13:58 - Looking down at earth
16:46 - Reliance on her team
19:55 - Not being defined by gender
24:46 - Sustainability in space
31:03 - When will humans get to Mars?
33:56 - Advice for next generation of scientists and explorers
37:40 -  What can businesses learn from space exploration
40:40 - Interest in music
43:17 - Love of nature 

For additional details about the podcast, show notes, and access to resources mentioned during the show, please visit https://www.syensqo.com/en/podcast

Transcript

Space Travel AND Self Belief with Helen Sharman

Ilham Kadri: Today, I'm so honored to speak to Helen Sharman. Helen is a woman of many firsts. She is the first British person to have traveled to space. And at just 27, she was one of the youngest individuals to venture into space as well. What I find so incredible about her journey is that it all started when she heard the radio advertisements that said they were looking for an astronaut. No experience required, believe it or not. She applied, beat out 13,000 other applicants. and after 18 months of training, blasted into space. As a chemist and astronaut, her courage has inspired the next generation to follow their science dreams. And I can't wait to talk to her about space travel and self belief. Helen, thank you so much for joining me today.

Helen Sharman: Oh, thank you for having me on this amazing podcast. I'm really looking forward to our chat.

Upbringing and love of chemistry

Ilham Kadri: Yeah, thank you. Well, there is a lot I want to ask you, obviously, but let's start at the beginning. Growing up in Sheffield in the UK, right? Can you tell us a bit more about your upbringing, Helen, and what drew you to science? Did science already fascinate you at a young age?

Helen Sharman: I had a very, what we would call normal upbringing and for normal equals boring. So, you know, there's nothing really special to say about it.  I had a mom and a dad and I had a little sister, a couple of years younger than me, who I grew up with. We had a dog and a cat, you know, all the very, very normal things.

We weren't a particularly wealthy family or well off or anything, but we weren't particularly poor either. So it was just normal. I went to the school down the road.  I suppose the difference, if there was a difference, is that my father is a physicist. So at least, If there was a discussion at all about the world around us as we were growing up as kids, then at least he could make it practical.

He could make me realize that, you know, if I asked, why is the sky blue? Actually, he could explain that. It wasn't just because it is. So, it felt as though there was a reasonable logic to the world. Now having said that, my sister grew up and did not become a scientist, so it doesn't work for all of us, but no, I just loved the idea that  the world was interesting,  and I suppose, when I had it explained to me, I liked that.

You know, as kids, we don't like uncertainty, do we? We like to know what's what. And I liked that logic.  but, you know, I liked most things at school. So, I was just a normal kid. So, yes, of course, I liked playing with my friends. And then as I grew a bit older, I started to think about the subjects. 

And I've always loved foreign languages.  foreign, you know, as in not English.  I've always loved, you know,  doing a bit of sport. At least once I got older, my birthday is towards the end of the school year, so I was always one of the youngest at school, which meant that you know, one of the littlest.

So, when you do sport when you're young, you're one of the worst at it. It's only when you get a bit older things sort of even out a bit physically. But yeah, I did enjoy sport then as well, and I've always enjoyed music and animals. So, you know, what to choose to do. And in the end, once I'd got to secondary school, I decided that, you know, as we have to choose in the UK, we have to choose, even at the age of 16, you have to choose, are you going to do the sciences, or are you going to go down some other route? I decided then that, you know what, of all the subjects, science or engineering would give me loads of options later on. Whereas if I did something else, I would probably have fewer options available generally. And then what science or engineering, well, honestly, very introverted. I was still, I'm really, but very unsure of the world and I didn't know anything about engineering. So I didn't dare try something I didn't know anything about. So I thought, okay, it has to be a science. Which science? Chemistry.

Well, you know what? I could do something physical, something biological. Chemistry is going to give me loads of options. I do like chemistry. And honestly, that's how I chose my university subject.

Becoming an astronaut

Ilham Kadri: Wow. Wow. So, it looks like an ordinary, you know, young life, but with an extraordinary destination. So let's talk about how you got involved in space travel. I've heard you tell this great story about how you were, driving home from work one day and, just happened to hear a radio and that said they were looking for someone keen to travel to the Mir Space Station. Is that really how it happened? Tell us more about that moment. What's, what's made you click and say, yeah, now I'm a young woman in my twenties and I'm going to apply for such a huge undertaking. Did you believe you're going to get there?

Helen Sharman: Well, I think that's the essence of it in that I believed I would not get selected. So there I was driving my car home from work, as you said, and actually I was just flicking through the radio stations because I was, you know, trying to find some decent music. And as I flicked onto the next station, there was the beginning of this advert and it was an announcement really, but you know, back in the pre, Internet days. This is, we're talking 1989. Now, many people won't remember 1989, but yes, it was a time when we didn't apply for jobs online because we didn't have an online in the same way. So, so yeah, this big announcement was to encourage people to take note that there was this new opportunity. A new space mission had been created.

It was towards the end of the Cold War. President Gorbachev, President of the Soviet Union, was trying to continue a kind of inter cosmos program that he'd had in the 1970s and 80s with Eastern Bloc countries and other Soviet friendly countries, where one of their people had gone into space on a Soviet spacecraft.

And so Gorbachev was trying to approach some Western European countries, so France, Germany, Austria for instance, and the United Kingdom.  And once an agreement had been made that there was going to be this astronaut required for a British mission, an announcement was made on the radio to try and encourage people to then look for the advert in the newspapers and so on to actually apply for it.

So yeah, that's how I heard about it. Brand new opportunity.  And because it had never been around before, you know, I think if it had been as I was growing up in my very normal environment, and I say normal for, for the age as well, so I was born in 1963, so, you know, in the 60s, 1970s, that was how I was growing up in that kind of context where, you know, I wasn't really expected, apart from to get a job, before I got married.

That was really, you know, as long as I didn't get married before I got a job, that was really the most society seemed to expect of me. And had being an astronaut been available when I was young, I would have probably thought, I'm not going to apply for that because that's not for me. But because suddenly it became available, when I was already working and I was enjoying a career as a scientist in industry, suddenly I realized that yes, I had the basic criteria to apply, but still I assumed that I wouldn't get chosen, therefore there was no real risk.

I could apply for it without, without really risking going into space because I wasn't going to do that. So, I think those two things, two elements combined meant that it was actually quite easy to apply. I thought I'd have to go because I realized I could. But never really being concerned that, you know, I might be risking something in my life.

Focus on the journey

Ilham Kadri: You told me yesterday, I found this fascinating when we had dinner together, Helen, that in a way you were interested by the journey, by the 18 month training process, right? Which made me,  reminded by my grandma who used to teach me and taught me,  to be interested by the journey rather than the destination. So, why was that?

Helen Sharman: Yeah, as this announcement described more and more what was going to happen to the people who were selected. So they're looking for two British people to do the training. One would go into space and one would remain on the ground as backup. But then they were describing all of these amazing things that was going to happen in the training.

So 18 months of living in Star City, this astronauts enclave northeast of Moscow. So for me, the opportunity to learn to speak the Russian language, and, you know, live in this completely other world kind of culture, of the Soviet Union, very exotic it felt then, and to learn the technology of space, learn a little bit about space medicine, be in the simulators, do some emergency training and learn, of course, You know, as a scientist, to be able to do science in space, to be able to talk with the scientists who are designing experiments and to carry out those experiments in space.

I mean, I'm a practical person. I like doing stuff with my hands. And all of that was just so attractive. Again, never expecting that I would get to go into space. But I thought to be able to do that, if I could just get selected for the training, Physical training part of your daily life. It's not like you even have to go to the gym or do a run when you get home from work, you know?

So just what a variety and what an amazing experience just to experience the training. Yeah. And you're right, that's, that's really why I applied, I think.

Flying into space

Ilham Kadri: It's amazing. And, and I think I watched some of your YouTube clips, right? So if your mission, and of course the most exciting part is always that moment of, lift off, which we, which you spoke about it yesterday as well. And I'm sure everyone asked you this before, Helen. So, but I will ask it anyway, because you are one of the few people on this planet who can describe the feeling probably, you know,  what was it like to be blessed into space? And what went through your mind the second the lift off started? Were you scared? Excited? Did you think, you know, am I going to go back to my dear earth and my family? Put us in the seat with you.

Helen Sharman: so, yeah, it, I mean, of course it's exciting because I'd never been into space before. Even if I had, I'd probably be excited. But of course we knew what to expect and I think a lot of people just assume that it must be a very scary thing to go through.. And I think if I were told today that tomorrow I'd be flying into space, I would be scared, because I wouldn't know what to expect or what to do.

But if you, you know, were scared of the unknown, if you know what, you know, what's going to happen, I All the things that you need to do in all sorts of different scenarios. And if you can trust the teams that have not just, you know, designed the spacecraft, but bolted bits of the spacecraft together, the teams who have trained you, the teams of the psychologists who are looking after us all.

You trust all of these teams.  the technicians who are, you know, putting fuel in the rocket, you know, because you've got this complete trust by the time you've been living with them and training with them for so long, it really was just, yes, it was exciting, but it wasn't scary. The other thing was, I suppose, as well, you can't, it's not just like sitting waiting for the launch, and just sort of, sort of twiddling your thumbs, trying to look out the window, the windows are covered in the fairing, you know, so you can't see out.

So you don't just sort of sit and wait, you've got two and a half hours of pre launch checks. You're not busy the whole time, but you've got lots of, lots of things going on. You've got to be ready for when you need to do what you need to do.  And that two and a half hours, just gradually through the processes that we've got, if it's not plan A, it's plan B, and all of those just happened as we've done in the training.

And gradually we got closer and closer to the launch time. And as the seconds tick down, I mean, you don't have this inside the Soyuz spacecraft, at least. You don't hear a ten, nine, eight business. You just see this little red light just ticking down. The clock just tick, you know, just goes down and the digits go down.

And of course you're aware of exactly what's happening at exactly what stage in this whole process and bang on time, the engines fired. And then of course, you feel that rumble. And it was windy on our launch day, Soyuz rocket can travel with wind actually relatively easily, it's not a problem, but that wind meant that as we just generated enough thrust to just sort of leave the launch pad without really moving forward fast,  it meant that I could feel us moving around on the top of that launch pad a little bit, we were starting to wobble around a little bit. But of course, then the thrust builds up and you feel like you're being pushed down and back into your seat. And yes, you get those G forces. And it's quite a bumpy launch, really. And different rocket stages. And so you feel that acceleration increase as you're using up the fuel. The mass of the rocket decreases, which means the acceleration goes up.

And then suddenly you jettison the rocket stage and the acceleration drops. And before the next stage kicks in. So you get this kind of sore tooth progression higher and higher G and then dropping and you get three different rocket stages in Soyuz. So, yeah, a kind of a bumpy transition into orbit and it's all over in 530 seconds.

Ilham Kadri: Yeah.

Helen Sharman: Less than 9 minutes and that puts you where you need to be.

Looking down at earth from space

Ilham Kadri: And, and we often hear Helen astronauts talk about,  you know, the overview effects. Actually, I had a podcast with Doug Hurley, who is a former NASA astronaut. And, this is for our audience, a cognitive shift astronauts experience when viewing planet Earth from such a unique perspective, which makes them feel a greater appreciation, maybe for our planet. Did you experience something similar? Did your journey make you look at planet Earth, our home differently? And it's people, by the way, differently?

Helen Sharman: Yes, it's a funny one, isn't it? Because I think different astronauts experience it in slightly different ways and it depends on, yes, who you've spoken to before. I'd be very interested to hear, actually I will listen to the podcast with Doug Hurley to hear what he says about it. I suppose that people experience certain things and certainly when you go all the way around the earth in 92 minutes, that makes it feel very small. And it is so obviously interconnected. You know, what we do on one side absolutely must affect what happens elsewhere. The clouds are swirling around, the oceans are clearly connected and moving and you know, it's just, it's a very, very obvious interconnected planet. But then, you know, you think about it in the other way.

The part of the world that I think I know a bit about, let's say Western Europe, we would go over from, you know, the west coast, west part of Ireland, let's say to the middle of Germany, something like that, in five minutes. That was pretty much most of what I knew. gone in five minutes. If we were traveling, let's say we'd be part of the orbit that might go over Africa,  sort of from sort of Northwest perhaps to Southeast Africa, that would take 20 minutes.

But the Pacific Ocean could take 40 minutes. And I think that, is, if you like, the other side of the coin, because that made me feel actually how large this planet is, and in particular, how little I know about it, and how much more there is to discover. There's just so much out there. So yes, for me, it wasn't so much a oh my goodness, it's very fragile. I was aware of that. I flew into space first in, well, the only time I've been, sadly, and maybe I'll get to go again sometime, but I flew in 1991, and it was not long after the ozone in the atmosphere had been discovered to be depleting, and we knew how to fix it, and we were starting to fix it.

It was, you know, so I was aware that there were certain issues, I say challenges that the world has to solve. It was really, for me, that wasn't an awakening. It was more that interconnectedness and how little we do actually know of this planet we live on.

Reliance on her team

Ilham Kadri: Yeah. So interconnection and it's a humbling experience because you want to learn more. And one thing I really loved about the journey, your journey is the teamwork. And you talked about this again yesterday. It's well, it was so important, not only believe in yourself, but also in your team. And you speak about the reliance on each other like a belayer, right? In climbing. Can you tell me more about the teamwork on the journey and how you all looked out for each other.

Helen Sharman: It's just, for me, such a wonderful part of spaceflight that I felt that great connection, not just actually with my crew, the people who I actually went into space with, but, you know, I met two people on board the space station when we got there, and I also class part of my team being, you know, the people in mission control, and then there are all these teams of teams, and we built up this, you know, this element of trust during the trainings, by working together.

At the very beginning of the training, it was impressed upon me how important it was to be open and honest with everybody. And, I was told that's how everybody works, that they're, we're all expected to not just voice our concerns, because that helps us to fix issues before they could become problems, but to also share our successes and then everybody continually improves.

And they really did work like that. And that was part of the trust because I knew that if anybody had a slightest inkling, they would be able to call that out and to, not only would they be heard within their team, but other teams, the communication would go across and up and down the organization so that, you know, we're very unlikely to get another Challenger, another subsequently after my space flight, like another Columbia, for instance, the accidents that we have had, which we can really put down to this poor communication, and lack of an ability to call out, or even if you do call out, nobody seems to want to know, and the communication doesn't go through the organization.

So, yeah, so, that helped me to trust everybody. And, and I really did. You know, we had a manual docking there, a number of things go, let's say wrong.  but they're part of, if we hope it's part of what we've trained to do and we can just slot into plan B or plan C. But together, you know, with my crew, I had to manually steer the spacecraft towards the space station. So if I made a mistake operating the periscopic television, sort of like a TV camera on the outside of the spacecraft, so the commander could actually see where he was going. So if I made a mistake doing that and switched it to, let's say, to, I don't know, to short view instead of long view at the wrong time, then we could have crashed and all of us could have died.

If the commander of the flight engineer makes a mistake, a wrong calculation, we can all die. So we are really trusting each other at that point in our lives. And you know, that feeling when we got to the space station, an agonizing 90 minutes before you can open the seal, because you've got to check you're not leaking air, but then you open that seal, float inside this lovely long module, very cramped on board our spacecraft. Just that camaraderie, that complete trust, and we were just one unit. It was just fabulous. And I knew that probably for the rest of my life, I could trust them with my life.  It is just a great relationship to have.

Not being defined by gender

Ilham Kadri: I want to switch gears and I read somewhere,  a quote from you saying that you've never defined yourself by gender, right? And, and you say that, you will, you will continue doing so. And people often describe you as the first British woman in space, but you are just the first British person, right? And it really resonates with me because I've always felt as CEO of a listed company, that you know, because of the minority women, you know, doing what you do or being in business. and leaders. I've always felt that when you are following your passion, you are not even thinking about being the first to do something. Why is it so important for you, Helen, to emphasize this dissection and what can men and women learn from this? And are you aware, I mean, and do you accept that you are a role model, Helen, for younger girls and women who want to actually follow your path?

Helen Sharman: Yeah, I know. I mean, of course that’s not why I flew into space. As you said, don't follow your passion in order to be first or anything like that. And I didn't go into space in order to be a role model. And I do actually feel a bit of a responsibility because I know people do say, I'm a role model,  as an astronaut, as a scientist, and actually also as a woman for young girls. But yeah, I think the problem with the astronaut business is, it's like, sure, like you say, it's the same in a CEO as well, but people assume that a man's done it before. So if I say I'm the first British astronaut, it's quite often people will say, oh, now, come on, you're the first woman. Who was the first British person in space? The man, right? And the man must have done it before. And so actually, I found that to be really powerful with young people. If I just turn up at a school, let's say, and start talking about how we live and work in space, talk about the science that we do and all of that, very, very rarely does anybody ask me, wasn't it hard for me being a woman?

Because I can talk as a scientist, as an astronaut, it becomes then, hopefully, it normalizes the idea that a woman can just go ahead and do it, because I'm just talking as it's normal. But if I just turn up in a school without giving a presentation or anything, and the teacher might just say, has anybody got any questions for Helen?

I can guarantee a load of girls will be asking, oh, it must have been so hard being a woman. No, it was no different. And that's the beauty of not just space flight, but I think being a scientist, and actually when we think about it, I suppose more generally in business too, you don't need, you know, being a woman might have made it, you know, make, we might have different lives outside of our work possibly, but actually when we're, when we're working, we're doing what anybody would do.

And I was, I suppose, always lucky growing up. I never really saw myself as having to fit in with the girl model, when I was choosing what subjects to study towards the end of my school career, when I was honing on, you know, one way sciences or languages or something else, my old German teacher, I studied German earlier on in the school, and my German teacher approached me and said, didn't I want to consider doing German later on, because,  didn't I know I would be the only girl, studying physics and chemistry if I continue to take those at the age of 17 and 18 for what we call A Levels in the UK.

And that was the first time I'd even considered my gender being relevant to how many people were in the classroom, you know,  and I was quite shocked by it. Can you imagine a teacher doing that? But yeah, there we go. But I didn’t choose German,  even though there were other girls doing German. And I just did physics and chemistry. And yes, I was the only girl doing physics and chemistry. I was the only girl doing the applied maths part of the mathematics class as well. But you know what? I just did it because I knew I could and I wanted to. And it was going to be part of what part, that was more part of me than being a girl, being female.

And Perhaps that's just lucky that I've been able to grow up with that balshy kind of attitude, I suppose, of not going first and foremost into my life thinking, right, what do girls do? What do women do? I've got to be, I've got to be a woman first. I do things because I think they're the right things to do. And because I think I can make a difference.  And my identity as a woman is below my identity as a person, as a scientist, as an astronaut, and all the other family connections that we have.

Sustainability in space 

Ilham Kadri: Yeah. No, it's amazing. And what a great wisdom for all. And I know there are many, you know, stem non stem listeners here. And I feel like your twin soul here, because I really felt the same going to chemistry and science.  Let me talk about something which is close to my heart as an individual, but also science goes to sustainability. And when I grew up in Morocco, we didn't have a luxury to waste. And now we talk even about sustainability in space. It's not only about Mother Earth and, and ensuring that,  We combat climate change, which we are doing at science school, but space traveling involves, let's be honest, littering, which can have huge consequences.

Helen, we know for our everyday lives, the NASA estimates that there are hundreds, hundreds of millions of pieces of trash or debris floating through our region of the solar system. And today companies and countries are not taking, maybe not enough accountability and responsibility on that. Can you help our audience understand a bit, the context, elaborate on the consequences space travel has on sustainability and what you think we can do better, different to mitigate this?

Helen Sharman: Oh, and this is a big thing, isn't it? So yes, well, it's, I think the typical thing with the Earth, while we were not very, the humanity was small in number, there weren't many of us around,  you know, if we made a bit of a mess, well, kind of the Earth almost absorbed it,  and when you get to a certain level, it can't anymore.

And yet, and with spaceflight, we've got a number of, not just, old satellites that don't work anymore, but all sorts of bits and pieces floating around in various orbits around the Earth. There's two big, sort of very particularly concentrated parts. There's low Earth orbit, which is where a lot of satellites are, but also where the International Space Station is now.

It's the space station near the time Pluto was in that same orbit. And Chinese space stations in that low Earth orbit. And we need a lot of satellites there. And there's also geostationary, which is much further out. So, low Earth orbit, a few hundred kilometers away from the Earth's surface. And then geostationary, 36,000 kilometers away, where the satellites are orbiting the Earth.

One revolution for every time frame, 24 hours, so essentially they're always above the same point on the Earth's surface. And we need satellites,  we need spacecraft, and our infrastructures on Earth now rely on spacecraft. You know, our electricity grids, our financial transactions, we're relying on all sorts of different types of satellites, it's really important that we have these things.

But yes, it's not just the old satellites, but let's say a rocket launch happens, the final rocket stage will remain in orbit for a long time. It may be there for a very, very long time, like hundreds of years, if it's, if your orbit is a long way up, not even just big parts of rockets, but small bits.

So satellites sometimes crash occasionally, really bad news,  sometimes they explode, at the end of their life. If you don't get rid of all the fuel properly, then that fuel can explode at some point as all sorts of little bits, even, even a small, a fleck of paint, you know, I had a bedroom window on board the space station and there was a tiny mark about four millimeters diameter made on that window by what we think was probably a fleck of paint because traveling at orbital velocity, something with so little mass as a fleck of paint,  you know, kinetic energy being half mass times velocity squared, if you're doing eight kilometers every second, right, your velocity is huge.

So your velocity squared is absolutely enormous. Your kinetic energy is massive, huge, and you can create so much damage with even these tiny particles. So, a big, big problem that we are, you're right, littering space.  It's all very well. We've got some projects going ahead, looking at how can we bring back to Earth some of these bigger satellites, which, yes, that's good because it stops them crashing into others.

But actually, it's all these little bits and pieces that can do the real damage and already have damaged satellites. You know, they can knock a satellite, first of all, damage it so that perhaps its solar panels don't work quite so well, but they can completely destroy a satellite. They can knock it a hole into a space station with humans in it, with people in it, essentially kill the people there and they can create so much debris that we'll not be able to go through all of these clouds of debris to get elsewhere in space. So if we're not careful, we're going to litter space and not be able to use it for all the amazing things that we do rely on space for. And some of the sustainability things, you know, we use Earth Observation Satellites to monitor climate change, the ice melting, to monitor methane emissions, leaks from pipes and so on, so we can fix them.

All of that.  So yeah, so we've got to fix it. So how can we fix it? Well. It's not easy, otherwise it would have been proven already.  We need better rules and regulations. I think we need everybody to be able to know where their satellites are. We need better rules about who moves out of the way of whom in space.

Ilham Kadri: Mm hmm.

Helen Sharman: There was a recent situation where one of Elon Musk's Starlink satellites refused to move out of the way of a big ESA satellite.  And in the end, ESA had to maneuver its satellite out of the way because otherwise it was a risk of explosion, they would, they would have, well, they would have crashed into each other and just made, made millions more bits of debris.

Of course, the problem is we could get this cascade reaction that one bit of debris then could interact with other bits, other satellites and create yet more debris and so, yeah, a big problem. So, yeah, so we need to have these rules and regs in place. We need to have better launching operations so that we make sure that these final rocket stages are returned to Earth.

We need to return old satellites either back to Earth, or put them so far out in space that they're not going to cause a problem. But honestly, that's just a bit of what you might call NIMBYism. It's just sort of creating a problem further down the line for our future generations. But yes, it's a question of all of these things coming together and just really making sure that we can continue to use space. We need to manage it, not just to allow it to be a big wild west if whoever wants to launch can.

When will humans get to Mars? 

Ilham Kadri: Yeah, and it's a living ecosystem like the planet and nature, so we need to create that like biodiversity on Earth space, you know, ecosystem, right? You need to maintain. And we've seen, Helen, the the The thrilling launch of Artemis 1, and I look forward, we all look forward to the launch of Artemis 2 next year, probably. Do you believe that we'll get humans to Mars? And, do you believe there is life there? And what's your view on that?

Helen Sharman: So I think, yes,  most astronauts would agree that we will have humans on Mars and we won't have to wait that much longer, probably, probably a bit longer than officially NASA's saying. But I think most people would say 20 or so years from now. So we're talking 2040s. So yeah, so we can really look forward to hearing about and seeing images of humans on the surface of Mars. And they will, you know, have to survive there for quite extended periods. But we will be able to do that. I've got no doubt about that. And, you know, that's just part of us pushing forward our physical human boundaries, but it's also exploring the universe and understanding more about planets themselves.

And of course, looking to see if there's any vestiges of life form on Mars.  We think possibly, because there might've been liquid water on the surface of Mars, that there might've been microbes underneath the surface that we might be able to see evidence of, even if they're not alive now. But yeah, I think there's so much that we can find out from continuing to explore.

And of course it's not just humans, but humans and robots. And we think that actually, I mean, all the studies I've seen show that, especially for exploration of other celestial bodies like the moon or another planet, we get the most science done for the amount of money spent if we combine robotics and humans together.

Humans, of course, can think in real time, and we can, we can react quickly. We can change our minds. Let's say if a, if a robot's been programmed to take a sample of soil, it's three different positions, and those samples of soil might be identical, it will still take three different, three samples of soil that from these three different positions.

But if a human goes there and said, oh, those two samples look brown, but over there, there's a black one. I think I'm going to sample that black one. So it's some things like that, that we can actually decide in real time. And we can, you know, things like drilling can often be done more easily by humans because we can sort of say, you know what, there's a bit of a boulder there.

I'm going to drill at an angle here and that kind of thing. But robots are much better. They've got much better repetition. They can repeat. Precisely what they did before, and that can be really useful. They can have much better acuity, let's say at sensing down to an individual molecule level, whereas humans are much worse at that, especially for working in a spacesuit.

So yeah, they're a combination, and we can travel better distances on another celestial body,  you know, do what we need to do on, not the Moon, not just Mars, but wherever else we choose to go. Asteroids, for instance.

Advice for next generation of scientists and explorers

Ilham Kadri: Yeah, and you wrote, Helen, an autobiography which has, you know, the wonderful title Seize the Moment. And, I do remember that Arthur Clarke wrote the foreword and shared some beautiful words about when we cease to explore, we start to die and being curious and pushing, you know, again, the boundaries has clearly shaped your life. So how do you believe talking to the youth and the young people listening to us? How do you believe fostering curiosity about science can inspire the next generation of innovators, scientists and explorers?

Helen Sharman: I mean, this is where space, of course, is so easy because everybody's interested in space. You talk about space, but actually what you're really talking about is Newton's laws. You're talking about convection, electrolysis. I mean, it's all just science, right? And that's great. And so they're interested.

But yes, that idea that it's partly it's being interested because, you know, the world is just amazing. The universe is fascinating and let's find out about it. But it's also showing to them that actually we can make some really big changes and the world has challenges, and the young people are concerned about those.

And we can, you know, science and technology can positively influence what we do, how we tackle these things and create a better future for us. So I think there is a quite a high level of feeling of responsibility by the young people that actually, it's their world they're growing up in. So it's, yes, it's all of those things, I think, combining to. And also in the idea that the world is changing rapidly, as we know, with advances in technology. Lots of new jobs are being created, jobs that we couldn't have imagined before. And future, there'll be future jobs that we can't imagine now. Young people will need a lot of technology, a better sort of, a lot of STEM education, that's science, technology, engineering, and maths, in order to take up a lot of these new jobs.

They won't all be STEM, but a lot of the new ones will have science involved in them somewhere. And I think young people are understanding of that too. So yes, it's about all of these things, I think, coming together for their lives. It's their planet, it's their lives, it's their careers,  and they can do something about it if they take an interest in STEM.

And you know what? I think more than that, actually, even if I really think about it, it's not just for the young people, it's for all of us. And let's say when these young people become adults, if they, even if they haven't taken up a STEM career, but they've got a bit of a better understanding about science, enough to ask questions.

You know, none of us will know everything about all science, right? We can't possibly. But at least if we're confident to ask questions, we can then take part in public debate, and that influences our political leaders, it influences decisions that are made on our behalf all around the world, and I think that's really important.

It stops our leaders becoming too nationalistic, too inward looking, because we do need them to make decisions on behalf of the whole planet. What's best for everybody not just for what's best for a few people in a very small part. So yeah, I think it's important that we all do. It's part of our living in a democracy, really, to take an interest in science.

What can businesses learn from space exploration

Ilham Kadri: Wow. What an inspiration you are, Helen. And yeah, it's a plea for more STEM, you know,  students and that's all what is about in my company. And you are talking about being curious, asking questions, experimenting, observing, testing, and speaking about exploration, that's what we seek in a way to do in our businesses, right?

So, on this podcast, we always try to bring attributes or concepts, which may be perceived as opposites, right? We can be sustainable and profitable, right?  We can push the boundaries of science for the good of humanity. What do you think business leaders listening to you can learn from explorers like you?

Helen Sharman: Oh, wow. I think perhaps it just comes back to that whole idea of it is a compromise quite often. Let's say going into space, we can't go without creating some litter, but let's manage it, let's reduce what we're putting up there, and let's think about the long term. Let's play nicely, actually, because yes, of course, there is a level of competition, and that's what business is about, but actually, we can survive in tandem with others, and we need that whole ecosystem of the world, whether it's a business ecosystem, a space ecosystem, or, you know, a biological one.  We do need each other to survive, and, yeah, the idea that we can live in space sustainably, we're now just starting to, you know, we've got an opportunity to make it work. almost from scratch.

And I really hope that we don't mess that up. So perhaps as businesses are creating new mini businesses and all the startups that are happening, they've got that opportunity to really play in a different way from perhaps how a lot of the traditional industries were managed. And I think that's perhaps the challenge for people like you is managing these big global, sort of businesses, in a way that's,  it's, like I say, it's playing nicely, because you, you've got to pay people at the end of the day, you've got to make a profit.

Ilham Kadri: Yeah,

Helen Sharman:  So it's this balance, isn't it, and always it's how to get the balance just right, and perhaps we never will, we've got to sort of, hover around where the balance point is, but, yeah, with, I think, with people managing things with the best will, that's the thing. It's not just about profit and paying lip service to everything else. It's got to be integrated in everything we do. And that, I think, has been a sea change in recent years, and I hope it continues. Certainly sounds like it's continuing in Syensqo.

Interest in music

Ilham Kadri: Yeah, well, thank you, Helen. And it's great again. Another wisdom is that goodwill is important, and that's balance. And I say to my team, it's a balance between the short and the long term. There is no long term without the short term, and indeed, you have to be profitable AND sustainable Now, to finish with Helen, a few fun questions about your other passions. And I know, yesterday, I know that you played the piano, but I hear you are also playing saxophone very well. And, you know,  I recently had a podcast on the strong connection between science and music with Nuno Maulide, who is both a chemist and award winning pianist. Did you ever see that connection between science and music,  working in your own career? And how did this happen for you, Helen?

Helen Sharman:  I just always enjoyed music, and listening to it was all through playing. And I'm no professional at all, it's very amateurish. But yeah, piano, I always wanted to play something else, and my parents couldn't afford for me to have a saxophone lessons as well. So that was my sort of my treat to myself when I started earning money was to get myself a sax and some lessons.

But yeah, they,  it's just been part of me really. In space we had a little keyboard,  so we could play, make a bit of music. We had a life size, a full size guitar,  and we could sing songs, of course.  So yeah, we made our own music in space as a bit of relaxation. But I think, you know, scientists generally are just curious about all sorts of things.

And for me, it was, science was never something that I had to separate from life, it was just part of who I am, it's part of what the world is about, in the same way music and literature and,  art forms, other art forms, it's just, you know,  it's, if we want to integrate it, we can, and I think it's nice that we don't feel as though, We have to separate out,  music from science,  and of course, a lot of people looking at scientists would say, well, a lot of people separate science, they go to school, they leave science at school when they go home into the real world, and that's where I think we as science communicators can do a better job, is to make people realize it's just as much part of your life as music is.

 So yeah, I've,  I've, it's been nice to take up a few opportunities recently. I was recorded playing the piano on a track for a band called 1201 Alarm, they're really into space stuff and they've had their music uploaded onto a spacecraft, for instance. So yeah, so I'm playing the music on a piece called Ozone 3, which is my call sign.

It was composed for me. I never had a piece of music composed for me ever before. So that was a great joy. So yeah, a few things like that. I've played on stage with a singer songwriter from Sheffield, my hometown.   So yeah, it's, it's, it's just been a great,  great joy to be able to do some things like that. And actually, had I not been into space, I don't think they'd have asked me to play on there, you know, play with them, but it's a nice opportunity.

Love of nature

Ilham Kadri: I cannot wait to listen to Ozone 3, right? So,  but I also read that you are a huge lover of nature, Helen. So what is it about nature that resonates with you so strongly?  And, and have you come to appreciate nature differently following your time in space? Is that linked to your spirituality? What does it mean? Loving nature.

Helen Sharman: I think I've just, I don't know what it is about mountains in particular, I've always enjoyed going up, up high and seeing that grand vista in front of me. It's that combination of, yes, that amazing view and the understanding of the vastness, the mountains have been there for so long. And then the contrast, when you look really closely, you might see a little insect moving about, or a blade of grass blowing in the wind. And it's that combination of, you know, the detail, I suppose it's a bit meditative almost, you know, the idea of mindfulness, kind of thing, but it's, and, and how complex, when you, when you imagine that In that vastness that you can see from a distance, there is all of this detail going on that you just can't see it.

And it's that complexity of the world and how everything interacts with everything else in this lovely sort of symbiotic kind of way. I just love that whole idea. So yes, for me, I find peace going up somewhere high. As a kid I used to climb a tree and read on the top of a tree.  Now I like to, if I can find somewhere fairly high like a mountain, nothing too high that I've got to sort of hold on to a craggy clifftop or anything, but somewhere where I can sort of sit on top and just enjoy that view. I find a lot of peace in that and it's just beautiful. But in space, of course, although we can look down on Earth and we can see where the mountains are, mostly because we can see the snow and ice on the tops of the mountains and not in the valleys. Sometimes when you look at an angle to the earth, you can just about make out that some parts of the earth's surface are a bit higher than others.

But, what we do look at when we, you know, apart from just the general beauty of the earth, is when we go to parts of the world where we know people, we talk about those people. It's those human relationships. And when you've got all that you need for basic life, as we do in space, you know, I haven't, my clothes were sent up for me. I had toiletries and I had, you know, the basic, everything I need, food, drink, you know, all of that stuff. But what I didn't have was a load of company. I didn't have the usual, you know, mix of people that our very social human species really needs as part of its, you know, it's where we get our, our ideas from quite often, we bounce off each other, they give us reason to think of other things, to consider something else that we might not have otherwise thought of. And, you know, it's those human relationships that we miss most in space.

Ilham Kadri: Yeah. And it's amazing. Thank you so much for talking to me today, Helen. Your story is incredibly inspirational and listening to you again. And we obviously talked yesterday, but, what, what came to my mind and soul is that you find out who you were and you are just that person and and when something may seem difficult for many of us you just dare to do it anyway and in in a way you displayed remarkable courage in following your instincts and embracing that curiosity which led you to your journey and then it happens, this was space. And even if you may not see this, this way, I know that many know that you have broken so many barriers, not just for women, but for young scientists and for young scientists,  but also for science as a whole. So thank you, thank you, Helen, for spending time with me and with us and for being a role model and paving the way for current and future explorers.

Thank you.

Helen Sharman: Ilham, it's been my great pleasure. Thank you.