Questioning Norms: The Luis Rabiales and Jenni Hermoso Incident

Is consent in sports just a grey area? Can one kiss change the course of a career? This episode centers around the incident involving Luis Rubiales and Jenni Hermoso, a Spanish football player, who was kissed without her consent during Spain's Women's World Cup victory celebration. We scrutinize the incident from different perspectives, examining the power dynamics at play, cultural norms, and the potential impact on Hermoso's career. 

In the face of societal biases, does the court of public opinion override the truth? The implications of the incident are far from confined to the pitch. We dissect the Spanish Football Federation's response, questioning if it mirrors the wider issue of women's silence in the face of harassment or abuse. We highlight the prevalence of systemic misogyny ingrained in society, and the unjust leniency in consequences for different classes and races. It's an eye-opening look at the deep-seated issues in sports and beyond.

At the heart of it all, what does this say about gender bias and power dynamics in sports? We continue the conversation by discussing the impact of normalized misogyny against female athletes globally, and how this incident has split public opinion in Spain. We also reflect on the case's wider societal implications, inviting you, our listeners, to join the conversation and share your thoughts on these complex issues. Tune in for this enlightening episode that promises to challenge your perspectives and provoke thought.

Transcript

Mark J: 0:00

At what might just be the zenith of her career, surrounded by the world's Hermoso Jenni may have felt invincible. Imagine every dribble, every pass was a testament to her dedication. But it wasn't a game move that would define that day. It was a singular, unexpected gesture.

Val: 0:21

Football, especially the women's walk-up, has its moment of unpredictability, but what took place was neither a goal nor a penalty. It was a moment that questioned everything beyond the sport power, consent and boundaries. In this episode, we're going to explore the story of Rubiales and and Jenny Hamoso in more detail. We're also going to discuss the broader issue of consent and genodynamics in sport.

Mark J: 0:45

Join us on this episode of the NeedleMivers podcast 3 of 3 Spanish people and all of them have been kissing on the cheek or like packing.

Val: 1:22

giving a pack is actually something that is, that is done quite frequently and and never look this up and also I like to mention I have never done it.

Mark J: 1:31

You're saying all three of them was like no, it's customary, it's got to be the lips. Trust me, I promise you.

Val: 1:40

That's all they told me.

Mark J: 1:41

They're like don't look it up, don't look it up, trust me.

Val: 1:45

Maybe it's a thing, it's a thing that they do to life, to foreigners. They'll be like, yeah, yeah, but until you come to Spain, and then you'll be in trouble.

Mark J: 1:51

I swear to God the fact that you know free Spanish not once. I know a number from work and not once. Maybe it's just maybe they don't like me, like they like you, but not once.

Val: 2:02

Can we call a friend and verify?

Mark J: 2:05

Oh, who's a Spanish friend? I can only call, like co-worker, friends. I need to have more Spanish friends.

Val: 2:10

That would be a little bit inappropriate.

Mark J: 2:12

Well, you think the lip kiss would be a little bit inappropriate.

Val: 2:16

Call on a Saturday. Hello, I just wanted to verify this fact from a podcast.

Mark J: 2:20

Yeah, I hope you're not too busy, but why haven't you kissed me on the lips yet? All I know is, if you look it up, it says double cheek kissing. It does not say anything about lips and whoever's been doing this to you, you've been abused.

Val: 2:33

I don't even know, Anyway, what this says. I have heard that this is not going to be a defense for Mr Austin we started.

Mark J: 2:43

Ruby Ellis, louise, ruby Ellis. Yeah, we started, we can start. I'm happy to start, oh my God. Okay, if, for the audience's context, we are discussing the most height topic since, was it Monday or Sunday? Basically Sunday, yeah, at the end of the Women's World Cup, where Savvy England lost but the Spanish Spain won and it was a huge victory. And at that press, at the precipice of this moment, the was it the coach? What is his position? He's the.

Val: 3:19

He's the president of the Spanish Federation.

Mark J: 3:22

I think the president, yeah, why am I like? I don't know? Basically, my feet has been popping off with like there's cause for his resignation and it's because he kissed the player, jenny Hermoso, hermoso, hermoso, hermoso yeah, he kisses her on the lips, and not only does he kiss her, he grabs, I think, both her cheeks. And now the thing that I wrestle with is like I don't think he'd have even considered doing that if she was a man Like at no point do I think she'd have been. He'd have been like you know what I'm gonna do. I'm so happy I'll just kiss him.

Val: 3:56

Also. I like to say that how he's removed any possibility to say yeah, she didn't want it, by grabbing her by the head and forcefully.

Mark J: 4:06

Yeah, that's so true, he did it, so she doesn't have a choice. And then, and then I think his defense is more or less she wanted it, like this was consensual on both our parts. The thing that blows my mind is she herself is was like so there was this in the locker room after when they'll celebrate, and so on the same day there's a live stream and she's like oh, I did not like that. And then there's the follow up where she makes a statement and she says it was, I did not consent to that. So how he's like oh yeah, yeah, it's fine, it's cool, it's my preference. We were both into it as well, but he's refusing to resign.

Val: 4:45

And also I like to add that it's so weird and inappropriate on so many different levels, not just like the one is just that why would you go do it in front of cameras, why would you go do it in front, like at that moment, and take away from from the victory in the achievement that the Spanish team had made on that day?

Mark J: 5:08

I think there's two parts to that, because because when you said that, I was like I don't know about that question. Because, firstly, it's why would you do that? You know what I mean? Yeah, exactly, and in front of cameras. I think that's the biggest. Well, a big thing to me. If I think about Jenny Hermoso, like it's kind of the zenith. She's at the World Cup, she's won the World Cup. Spain have won the World Cup. You're celebrating, I think. She's born 1990. But, like peer makes and it's not a penalty or anything, you know, these moments define you. And now her story, which should be, you know, winner of the World Cup, is now tarnished with being kissed by the president. Like it's weird. It's like imagine you saying both standing on the pedestal and instead of him being remembered as the fastest man alive, instead it's like a bird poops on his head and you're like right, and it's like, hey, you should head. Like, but that's better, to be honest, because that's just like people consider that lucky. This is outright outrageous.

Val: 6:04

Like yeah it's, and then it's. It's destructive, isn't it? You take away from someone's life achievement in an instant for the stupid action.

Mark J: 6:13

And it's the bonus that this is just what we've seen in one limelight event, right who knows what victories. He was smacking arses, kissing lips and like doing whatever we're like we don't. It opens up the wider question of the culture of it, right. Actually, that's a good point.

Val: 6:30

That's a good point, right? Is this similar? Comparable to what happened at the Oscars?

Mark J: 6:37

Ah, the Chris Rock and the wills. So, yeah, you raise this. So for the audiences information, I'll try to raise this question, and I told him to shut the fuck up and only mention it. We've decided to stop speaking to my friend about things unless it's here, so you can chime in with your opinions.

Val: 6:54

Mark and I. Now we only speak once a week and it's during podcast recording, because every everywhere else, even when we go to the restaurant to have a meal, perhaps, we start getting conversations and we're like, oh, we should turn the microphone on. Everything becomes a conversation.

Mark J: 7:09

Well, yeah, that's the problem of conversations they're like they were record worthy. But when I saw my argument about the slap being different, besides, the male female power dynamic was more about the fact that if, if Will Smith hadn't won the award because in that instance when the slap occurred there was no award being given out Chris Rock was just like digging at the audience, riffing off the audience, and then Will Smith comes up and slaps him. So it's like, and because he was talking about his wife but details.

Mark J: 7:42

Yeah. Well, that's why there's okay, we're not going to get into the controversy of that, but I will say yeah. So then he comes up and slaps him, but it wasn't like the precipice vibe of their careers, right? Maybe after because Will Smith finally won an Oscar well, won the Oscar, right, but it was more like Chris Rock has done the Oscars before, so it was like a routine thing. And then that's just an unexpected moment in that establishment.

Mark J: 8:05

To be honest, like misogyny, gender biases, racism, all of these things in football, kind of like standard Expectations, except on this stage in the World Cup, when it's a win. I think that's a huge in terms of the people. You heard me at the start of this episode. I struggled to say her name. Now that just a reflex like on me and Also called my interest in football is much right now, even though it picked up as England got further and further. But she's could become a household name and it's not for the reason of winning the Spanish World Cup, which is a shame, like I'm.

Mark J: 8:41

And one thing I want to do which I think is different, because while we were doing research for this episode, it was a lot about Ruby Ellis. Like Louisa Ruby Ellis. He's the main guy and it happens a lot with people who victimize others, who, like, end up doing something to others and the person who gets broadcast is that person. They get a lure, they get a fan base, they get whatever you know. People will defend him, go to bat for him and forget the name Jenny Hermoso, which is not. I hope it's not what will happen in this case, because she's a champion. She, she played, she won, she Was victimized from my perspective and like that's the story and this guy he's the pro. I'm not the protagonist, the antagonist, I guess, in this circumstance, and shouldn't be like lauded over.

Val: 9:28

And it's sad to say that this is not an isolated incident. This happens regardless of where you are. So this is the, of course, the football women's World Cup, and you know, as the World Cup happens, it's got lots of unpredictability. And this isn't the only place, though. This happens whether you are in the whiskey industry, this happens whether you are in in in an office Environment, and this also happens at home, unfortunately. In the preparation of this podcast, as Mark mentioned, I did a little bit of a let's call it like stat research, and I mentioned the whiskey industry in particular because there was some some article of think force from the New York Times that quoted they're up to 70 percent of women have had some sort of inappropriate touching whilst at the workplace 70 percent, 70 percent that that's thinking for a second 70 percent of women have inappropriate touching.

Mark J: 10:29

The thing about these that always comes to mind is that Is that the ones who have Stated it, like in a survey or something, because you know usually the number is much bigger and then it's the amount that admit to that going on is different. That's why there's like it's weirdly funny but scary that mel People, mel who Get go through sexual assault. If if like 30 percent, admit it it's happened to 90 percent of people because guys just won't say so. If it says 70 percent in the workplace, I'm curious. Because is that?

Val: 11:06

whiskey industry in the whiskey industry in the whiskey industry.

Mark J: 11:10

Is that the ones who state it, let alone how many it really happens to? Because we take these numbers as fact, like they went to each one and was like I saw that.

Val: 11:18

Yes, it's a. It's a good question and I think there'd be some sort of an element of a poll that takes place and extrapolation, etc. But you do raise a good point because there is also going to be an element of People that may be on the receiving end but also justify it. Justify it because of their circumstances or because of the environment that grown up with and because they see it as a, as a let's call it something that could be appropriate. But actually, when viewed externally, from from the point of view of someone that's got a little bit more perspective, they will look at it as highly inappropriate. So the results of the element of those people that might not speak because they're thinking, yeah, that's okay, that's okay.

Mark J: 11:59

That's. I think there was actually we might have mentioned in on previous episode. I know it's in a book and I can't remember which one, but there was the. The whole definition of sexual assault, like that whole conversation of what it is and what's acceptable, is so skewed that people don't realize what the legal definition is anymore. So when I say that, I mean Someone went around to a campus of university and asked a number of women like, have you been a sexy soul? They say no, and but then their answer'd be like oh, but they brush my ass or they slap my ass. Well, they did this thing or they did this thing, and they're like do you know the legal definition of sexual assault? Is that like what you're describing? And they're like no, no, no, I've because and it's the mentality like I'm not a victim, therefore, that can't be what's happened to me, and so this is where it's.

Mark J: 12:51

It's a not so gray area, is what I call it. It's a not so gray area that's become gray because what we've accepted as a standard Might be fully inappropriate. You know what I mean. So we don't know if and this is where people can defend you know, the best villains are the ones who think they're doing things for right, the right reasons, right, so they can defend saying this is normal, like we started off joking, like started recording quickly because Val's explaining how he is free friends. He's like no, it's cheat, cheat, kiss, peck on the lips. And then you're looking up and google says that's not the norm and it's like that might just not be normal. It's like, no, it's normal. Trust me, I've been doing it to everyone. Now, eva, it's normal, or I am a predator and it's like, but it's wild. It's like, yeah, it's um. And the thing is it's easy to think when, say the and I'm not trying to defend anyone, but it's easy to think when the President's saying this, right, but it's also I don't. Uh, I won't be surprised if women come out saying, hey, he does this, this is normal. You know what I mean. And it might be.

Mark J: 14:00

This is where that, that not so gray area exists, because it's normal, even to victims, if it's not actually normal, like the customary thing might just be double cheek, and he's doing Two hands on the cheeks, which is a double cheek, kiss on the lips. I'm saying that's normal, I've been doing this my whole life. And it's like oh, you don't know, you're really fucking up right now. You're really on a different plane. I don't, I don't even know.

Mark J: 14:28

I think just to bring it all back around so and kick off the episode. So it what we're discussing right now is that at the women's world cup final, which took place on the weekend, where, recording this, um, millions witnessed Louise Rubiel is kissing Jenny Hamoso and imagine this was act was seen by countless eyes and spiraled into debates and investigations about consent, gender dynamics, well beyond spain's borders, like we're talking about it and, to be honest, uh, there was a point in time where my phone just had notification, notification, notification, notification and the notifications I got Weirdly enough, because mine are on and it wasn't so much about the kiss at first, it was when the call outs for him to resign. Those were the notifications I got and that like streamlined and it's been rolling over, rolling over. So that's really what's our well, it's worth diving into, I'd say.

Val: 15:27

And it's interesting how it got picked up at a point where people started asking him to resign that the question around appropriateness came up, and it wasn't the action itself that was viewed as an inappropriate right away, but it was only once the appraise started that, I guess, the world started questioning him.

Val: 15:51

And, as the world weighs in, the Spain's top criminal court began probing whether Rubiales act with a sexual assault or not, and Hermoso the Jenny Hermoso, that is, the player responded about the incident on a live stream, stating that she did not like it, which was then followed by a statement where she stated that she did not consent to the case either. So Rubiales, though, he cries foul and he claims that the case was consensual and describes himself as a victim of social assassination. Now, that's a term I've not heard before, to be honest social assassination and the Spanish football federation even doubted Hermoso's claim, which is outstanding. It just shows how much non-important those kind of acts and things are given, and Teresa Parker of Women's Aid shared a sentiment that many felt. This incident exemplifies why many women remain silent about harassment or abuse.

Mark J: 17:01

When you think about free things on that, the social assassination aspect, where he feels he's the victim, and then the Spanish football federation doubting Hermoso, where they're like, pretty sure it's just normal, like what are you on about? And then thirdly, of course, where it exemplifies women remaining silent on harassment. I think that last point is kind of the key here, where I don't know which point the chicken or the egg starts or the cycle, but if she stays silent it's taken implicitly as consent, and then that consent leads to that act happening again, and then that drives the cycle which then makes him feel like whoa, I'm the victim, Like I mentioned earlier, I've been doing this all the time and what that kind of drives, because I think I always ask this question. I know that there's two sides to this where people might be fully on his side, but then it's always the case of put yourself in the shoes. What if he is wrong? Just imagine it. If you're thinking for a second he's right, Just imagine for a second that what Teresa Parker said is true and it's literally sexual harassment. What does that mean? So in this way, it's like if we, if we revert to him saying, oh, it's social assassination.

Mark J: 18:15

She said, she did not consent and in the live stream which he said like, literally after the game, where she's like she did not like it. Would this mean that it's more gaslighting? So at the heart of the incident is it the concept of just gaslighting? And what gaslighting is, if you're curious, is it's an emotional manipulation technique where the victim is presented with misleading information to make them question their reality. So in this case, it's saying no, you did like it and you did consent to it and it's normal. In fact, the whole Spanish football firm are you sure, Are you even sure that you're like this might have just been fine? Laura Bates, who's the founder of Everyday Sexism Project, believes this case exhibits a global scale campaign of gaslighting and victim blaming by powerful men, and it kind of sits right into that that trait.

Val: 19:10

So those questions that you, that you've asked just a few seconds ago around oh, are you sure that you didn't really mean that you didn't really consent that? Those are really interesting ones, right? Because it's the kind of questions that we also found that are asked when we look at diversity and we look at discrimination and we look at the incarceration rate, for example, of people of color, and the first question that gets asked when this topic comes up is oh, what were they actually doing? Were they doing something dodgy? Or what were they doing that they around suspicion? Oh, or they will question things that just you know.

Val: 19:53

Look at what they're wearing. Like, surely, like, if you're wearing a jumper and a hoodie, you're wearing the hoodie on top of your head and you're covering yourself. That's enough to raise some sort of suspicion. And that's the problem, right, and that's the thing which is ingrained in our society, so much so that we believe those thoughts to be okay and acceptable, whereas they're not. And then we end up with the presidents of very large organizations that end up kissing inappropriately Football players at the pinnacle of the career, spalling such a beautiful event.

Mark J: 20:29

The thing about that which always stuck out to me was people think they're not biased, but then they only tend to ask those questions in specific circumstances. So someone gets killed by the police, yeah, but what were they doing though? But if someone does white collar crime, no questions like that and it's biased. So it will be biased towards the victim being wrong when it's like normal worker class crimes, and then when it's white collar, it's like, yeah, but the victim? He might not have known Taxes might have needed to be evaded. Why do they keep trying to take our money? It's like there's a bias surrounding the way you're looking at every. There's like a spectrum which you're looking at everything in that is good in one way, and then they can. It's not even a gray area, but I've just seen it stand out where it's like then they can switch it to be like no, I was on their side when this was.

Mark J: 21:18

So there's like the people who have been found let's talk about court cases again, people who have been found guilty of horrible crimes where it's been rape, murder, whatever. But then the judges are super lenient because they're like oh, you have such a bright future ahead of you, and then they're not showing that same leniency to different classes of people, different races of people, and it's like the same answer to the like different things, like no, no, no. So you're saying I have no future ahead of me? No, no, no, you just didn't go hard, that's your first mistake. And so I remember I once had this discussion with an ex colleague, now a friend of mine, where theirs was back difference, it's backwards, and I like being like I don't want to say devil's advocate, because I don't advocate the devil, but I do like probing and getting some information and theirs was always believed the victim and I was like interesting, and it's like we did. That's why social assassination, which is character assassination, is a thing, even when it's used by the wrong people, because there is no, to my knowledge, there is no Consequence for people lying about you doing something to them, right, unless they purge themselves on things. So if someone came out an accused vow of something horrible when it came to, say, sexual assault, it could ruin his life, he could ruin his job because ruin his career, and then it could come and you know how would they say the lie spreads further than the truth. Before the she was able to do its laces by the time it's like come as oh, that weren't real, it's too late, they are tarnished, it is over.

Mark J: 22:51

So an example of this which is interesting to me is the popular show Rick and Morty. I've heard like Justin Roiland, who's the co-creator, he's been removed from Rick and Morty. There's been a number of cases and you believe the victims and immediately I was like, wow, that's, it's the end and they're like they're gonna continue Rick and Morty without him. The only way I found out that all the things were dropped against him was because I looked it up myself. I was like, oh, what's going on? I heard so much news about him being cancelled and like the fact that he was the problem like, and it was insane. I was. I was like, wow, well, that's it, and you know, people used it to confirm their beliefs of him anyway and stuff. But then to hear that, oh, the case was dropped. It doesn't matter. You know what I mean.

Mark J: 23:35

Once that's happened, it's out there and there's no repercussions, or he's just trying to go about his life, and so, and it's down to how you feel like in the end, the court of public opinion really does exist and it does matter, but it is that the problem, I think, is that there are a number of different tools and different views and different Aspects that can be used by both bad apples or bad characters, and good characters and people in between who think they aren't either, who really can sway towards one. And so when they're asking questions like oh, but did didn't she want it? Oh, but isn't that consent? Oh, but they might have done it another day that is asked sometimes and they get you feel self-justified because you'll see they were acquitted.

Mark J: 24:20

And sometimes where it's like why are you asking this right now? Like why do you need it? What if she didn't? Why are you convinced you know more than her? She literally said she didn't. How are you gonna tell someone that they did? No, I just don't believe. It's like what's the benefit? What is it you're trying? What value or like Mental justification, is the reason you need them to be on your version of the story, which isn't potentially the truth?

Val: 24:50

and, unfortunately, what will probably happen is that there will probably be a backlash and and the player will be on the receiving end of it, whereby she'll probably receive threats. She'll probably receive, like a series of nasty emails and nasty social media posts and she will probably Unfortunately, suffer the consequences of it. And this is all due to the, to the way that we've let's call like build this world, which is tailored towards Towards men, patriarch, what's called Patriarch, a patriarchal society. That's the one patriarchal society. You can cancel the last three.

Mark J: 25:37

I just I think, yeah, but I think one thing just to add on about the patriarchal society is that the expectation can be that, say, victims in that society are the ones who are shouting about it the most, but it's the whole society, and this is where things are systemic. It's like in in, built in the system, so then you won't. You may find that people do in the death threats or people who are shouting the most to say she's wrong can be women, and that's the whole thing about it being the society. It's like if you raise a culture to think a certain way and advocate for it, then it may be the people who are being victimized in that same system who are unaware of it, because that's the whole thing the society supposed to do, right, and it's a bit, that's a great bit. But then they'll also be the one saying actually you're hurting me, actually this is harassment, actually this ain't right. And that's why, at one point, when we're talking about, like, the me-to movement, it's weird because I'm not sure if you thought that was a shock valve. I don't.

Mark J: 26:42

A lot of people, to my knowledge, no one was surprised, which is very scary to think. No one was surprised, and that was in like the workplace and it started and it like stand from. That you can see in Hollywood as well, but there were so many cases, so many cases, and so when like say, race things happens, class things happen, gender things happen, the voices that the opposition tend to use, the most other ones that seem like who may not be aware, like actually You're indoctrinated. You heard a Stockholm syndrome like this is Things like that happen and it doesn't justify that they're wrong about what they experienced. It doesn't mean me too was incorrect or the fact that she didn't consent was, was alive. It's just that, hey, some people, some loud voices, aren't aware. Like I mentioned earlier, say sexual assault really is.

Val: 27:35

And I think this takes us quite, quite nicely onto the some of the stats that that I wanted to call out. And, quite interestingly, a 2017 BBC survey provides a little bit more context, and he found that half of British women so this is half 50% of British women have encountered sexual harassment in their workplace or place of study. So, alarmingly, over 60% of them never reported it. So we're talking about 25% of women in the UK have received some sort of sexual harassment and never reported it. And, as Bates mentioned, what happened to hermose on such a significant platform, race and race with millions of women who have never felt the uncomfortable closeness at work events or being told that they're making mountains out of a hill, or being told that they're seeing too much into what has happened, which perhaps could be bound there or perhaps could be something that everyone else deems as appropriate.

Mark J: 28:44

I think one dynamic to it that that reminds me of where you're saying like it's in the workplace, that's someone who's way higher than her, let's be honest, right, it's a person in the position of power did something to a someone under them that that person didn't want and is saying that they wanted it like. Let's take it out of the football dynamic, let's put it into the work, like a standard office workplace. And because that one reminded me of a story I heard from a colleague where they were like it wasn't theirs to share, but it was basically there was someone who had the VP come and make, let's say, innuendos towards them, unwanted ones like bring your friends, bring your friends and they're like how do I navigate?

Mark J: 29:30

Because this isn't on the stage, this isn't in front of a huge audience, this is just happening in their day to day. And they're like, how do I not risk my actual livelihood, my work, while trying to turn down these person's advances? Like, why must I suffer repercussions for being correct in the workplace? Let's say and so it doesn't surprise me at all where it's like over 60% never reported it, because that one, I don't believe they reported it. The colleague who was telling me about it was the one who went to that person's manager. Like, hey, do you see this going on? And the manager's response was yeah, but it's just a bit of banter, it's a bit of joke. How do you feel when you can't get that support? And so this is like you take that which happens in companies I've worked for, and then you go to the World Cup and it's like this is just happening on a bigger, wider display.

Mark J: 30:23

So if you think about, like, what's the public response and what's the? Is there any outcry or defense? Many in Spain, for instance, are voicing their support for Hermosa. There are calls for Rubien Rubialis' resignation, of course, and several are refusing to play in solidarity with her most as her teammates, some of them are standing by her. However, some staunchly defend Rubialis to the extent that his mother has even commenced a hunger strike, like, like I said, don't be surprised which genders do what his mother's like hell. No well, to be fair, mother's right at that. I'm not gonna hold that against her. But still, despite these divisions, the football presenter, sembra Hunter, feels there's unanimous agreement about the inappropriateness of Rubialis' behavior, which sheds light on the normalized misogyny in society.

Mark J: 31:16

So remember I did say several and this reminds me of Colin Kaepernick, where he was doing the fist and some teammates they were it fully. What is it? This is where marketing is key. Not, they were witch hunted for literally putting a fist up to say, hey, there's too much violence. Years later, that's when George Floyd happens and there's this huge reform and it's really wild because it's.

Mark J: 31:41

It's like you have to be a pariah Before you're able to be like a hero. You know what I mean. You have to fight against the Anas Wild. That's why even I'm not gonna lie, when it's the just oil people, the most inconvenient people around, I'm still like what are they saying? Because people really dislike what's happening with the just oil people in the UK. They have caused what I'm not gonna lie, the most epic inconveniences, delays, just whatever they've managed to disrupt. And then I'm just concerned in 2030, 50 years, because I can understand where their point is, where they're like you're killing us. We're not gonna have 20, 30, 50 years.

Mark J: 32:24

If I believed in something that much, I, that's the minimum you could do, right. So, but it's, it's. It starts with them. Martin Luther King, malcolm X, everyone, jesus. Jesus is a great example, man, you have to be a pariah and then suddenly, oh, it's the big religion. I'm still kind of freaked out by the fact we just do the sign of the cross, which is him getting crucified. If I, if I always say if he got stabbed to death, what would we do? We just tap our ribcage off. I'm not gonna get into that, but let's, let's try and appreciate the depth of this incident a bit more. So we must have dive into, let's say, spain's history concerning gender dynamics, especially in sports. Let's, let's get into the actual grip of it when it comes to Spain. So remember, spain, while progressive now has a history deeply rooted in traditional gender roles. So in sports, especially football, women's leagues have often been overshadowed by their male counterparts. This disparity sets the stage for understanding the power dynamics at play during the incident.

Val: 33:28

And when looking at this globally, we realize that Spain isn't the only nation grappling with such issues. And if we look back to 2018, the Ballon d'Or winner, adam Hagerberg, was asked to twerk on stage, which is not the many so as diminishing her achievement. So it's as if you go and and the one that pops to mind that is is English is Michael Owen when he won the Ballon d'Or, and you go ask him to twerk on stage right after that is won the Ballon d'Or, or you know, you can ask that to any other superstar football players. It wouldn't be acceptable, but somehow she was asked that someone, someone had the audacity to think that that was appropriate.

Val: 34:13

And similarly, tennis stars such as Serena Williams has been outspoken about gender biases in sports, and these instances, like Kermose's case, highlight the global challenge that women athlete face, even at the pinnacle of their careers, which is super interesting, because I think it was only three months ago, maybe, that there was this beautiful I think it was a painting that was released at a Wimbledon that was a portray of all the top players of the game.

Val: 34:49

But what was super interesting is that the there was a series of players I think three, four or five at the very front and then the players became smaller and smaller, as if they were coming off from from a staircase, and all of the women, including the William sisters, who are famous for the sport, who are from millions of the sports, they were actually on the staircase being led by men. So it just goes to show that, even when it comes to portraying the sport and for, and doing so in an art form such such as a painting, even then Women are not taking her seriously and they're being placed behind men in that portray.

Mark J: 35:33

I'm still in shock that they were asked if she could twerk on stage. You win something. And they're like, yeah, can you twerk now? It's just wild and hilarious and wild. I don't know you have to laugh because if you don't, you're like what? You wouldn't do that to her. It's just some. There's just some things you wouldn't you know they wouldn't do to other people and I did not know about this painting or, and it doesn't?

Val: 36:01

You know, sometimes you have a conversation with someone right and like this really inappropriate question comes to your head. You're like, oh my God, can you imagine if I asked that to that person? But you're like, no, I can't ask that inappropriate question, you won't do it, but somehow the photo was okay. Yeah, Can you twerk for us on stage please? I know you just won the balloon, but you just forgot about it.

Mark J: 36:21

The thing that scares me. You know what I think? That's the thing. Right, you said imagine an inappropriate question. They didn't think it was inappropriate, they clearly asked it.

Mark J: 36:31

That's the world, because there's many times you can have oh, that's inappropriate For them. It's like oh, yeah, obviously, but can you twerk Like what? And that's yeah, it's. I think a lot of these things raise further questions or show like. It's like seeing cracks right, cracks that expose deeper rooted issues, but people leave it at face level or want it to be face level, but it's like no, you just saw what happened. Right, that is wild.

Mark J: 36:59

That painting is, and there could be so many cracks that it just looks like a smashed. You know one of those if you smash a bus window, it'll be like multiple shot glass, because it's very easy to break through. Like just, it's not really glass, it's a mosaic, at best it's tiling and it's just like, but it's okay. And in both of these quest scenarios say, it's Ada or the paintings, or this Homozo incident it's a lot to do with power dynamics. Now, moving away from tennis, back to football, let's talk about just the power dynamics in football, with its intricate hierarchy, often places players, male or female, in a very vulnerable position. Remember the FIFA corruption scandals? I remember those. Do you remember about the FIFA corruption scandals?

Val: 37:50

Vaguely, it was about like four or five years ago.

Mark J: 37:52

Yeah, but it was huge, Like there was just big corruption going on and honestly, at the time I was like, oh, what does this mean? Is it going to do anything? Fifa is still there, but I think it was like they've been trying to get countries to go certain places for of the World Cup held in certain countries or something. There was behind the scenes stuff I'm not even going to get in. I just remembered there was a huge scandal with FIFA. They showed us that behind all the glitz and glamour of the sport, there lies a darker world of politics and power plays. That was the underlying thing from it right, and everyone just trust FIFA, like, yeah, it's going here, okay, that's fine, but really there was this huge thing underneath it and this incident underscore that.

Mark J: 38:32

Even top tier players like Hermoso aren't exempt even from these dynamics. So you can watch anything. You can take it to NFL basketball and the presumption when you're watching the sport is that's it. There's goals, you can see the fairness or the unfairness with your own eyes, and there's VRR so you can catch it in fast speed and everything. But when you go into the depths behind that, it can get way more elaborate, way more darker, way more corrupt, as we've seen with FIFA, and that's the part that we don't see. Behind the shadows, things like to live in the dark, I guess the downside of life.

Val: 39:09

And I think we always have to be careful around the role of media, what they say about the incident and how the incident is being portrayed, because that builds up on people's opinions and the opinions are clearly divided, people thinking that is a downright inappropriate thing to do, while others are downplaying it as a misunderstanding and those contrasting views that people are building. They are worrying because it kind of shows that this societal patriarchal society that we have has built our minds in such a way that we think that objectively inappropriate actions are questionable. So let's take a step back and when those things do happen, let's do really question whether they are appropriate or not and whether, if the head happened to another male, for example, whether we would see it as inappropriate or not. I think this test has got a special name, of course. What the name of the?

Mark J: 40:13

test is. We mentioned it on a previous episode. Go find it yourself. We'll figure it out in the background, I remember, because a lot of new media outlets are owned by, like Rupert Murdoch, and you have to wonder who are they catering to? What's the agenda? Who is the audience they actually support? So there will be disparages and that's why there's like broadsheets and tabloids and different types and where you get your news from, which has changed a lot. A lot of people get their news from Twitter Already, like, yeah, Twitter, because it's well X now, because it's way faster than some outlets and way more accurate than some outlets will be.

Mark J: 40:52

But it's still worth the question like what role does media play in perpetuating the very biases and systems they report on, and to what extent they do this? So, with that in mind, we do value your thoughts. If you're open to join the conversation, please feel free to DM us on our Instagram account, theneedlemovers. Let's keep this discourse going. We'd love to know more and let us know how do you see this incident. Is it an isolated event or a mirror to wider societal issues which clearly we have alluded to in our alongside this episode? We'd love to know your thoughts.

Val: 41:29

As always, I've been your host very well, so joined by my co-host.

Mark J: 41:33

Mark Jason.

Val: 41:34

And till next time.

Mark J: 41:36

Adios, ok, cool.