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Check us out and send us a message on our instagram, Tik Tok and Youtube platforms @the.needle.movers
www.theneedlemovers.xyz
So when I was writing the outline in the beginning of the year and I wrote down that we were going to talk about this book, the only thing I could ever think about when I was writing this book was your impression of a man trying milk for the first time when did.
Speaker 2:I say that I'm trying to think of when I said the impression. I'm trying to because to me I've always thought that was weird as hell. But I always thought the first person to do anything was weird as hell. Because the first person who was like imagine the first mother who had a baby latch onto her tit and she was like what's going on? Like if there's nothing to tell you that it needs the milk. And then milk came out, that's what. But the first guy to like go up to a cow, like oh, you gonna give me the goods. I don't give a damn what she's saying. It is, it's freaky. And for someone to be like I'm into it. Go on, darryl, go get that milk out of there, because it must have been like what's it called? Like a car was feeding off the mother and he was like why does that get all the milk? What about me? And you know, like unfiltered milk is like bloody and pussy, but this motherfucker was dedicated. It's my favorite thing. That always made me like the first person. And there's actually there's a YouTuber who's managed to like make videos. I think his name's Danny, but he makes videos of the first person to do a bunch of stuff. He's like taking all these thoughts I've had and has managed to make a whole channel with it. Millions of followers. He's hilarious, but, it is true, just the first person to be like what are you saying, betsy? I won't tip you, but I'll sip you. I can't have my mama's milk anymore, so I guess somebody else's it's like it's not over, till it's over. That cow was like, nah, just make a steak out of me. He's like no, no, no, no, yeah, I'm a drink from the gut. That's just so. Why does that come to mind with sapiens?
Speaker 1:It's because of the. I think the whole first section of the book is all about or second section is all about agriculture revolution, how we're taking animals and we said, all right, I know you're like eating grass and you're having a chilling time and you like playing with your friends, whatever, but you're going to have to work for me and I'm not going to pay you for it. So it's all about the agriculture revolution. And as soon as I started hearing that, I'm like oh yeah, cows, why are you just freely available, just on the grass? They were just money in their own business. And suddenly we got them. We got bulls to like do agricultural work for us? And we said they're using cows as a source of protein, as a source of milk.
Speaker 2:The life of a bull is actually kind of wild because they don't. Oh, I see what you did there, that's called fertilizer. But I mean in terms of like, well, the ones who are there to make the rest of more cows, because they literally get taken for their sperm and be like go on, have a great day. They go in, smash the hell out of it, have children all over the place and skip out, other than the ones who then become like a Matadors I'm a call it friend where they get, you know, displayed to run around. Let me see that. Are they like pregnancy bulls, the ones who go around just trying to what's it called Fertilize the woman? I was going to say?
Speaker 1:stud, but I think those are horses.
Speaker 2:It's not that we need to know this.
Speaker 1:No that we don't need to know this, but basically that's why I thought of it, and every time that I think of cows, for some reason the image of you telling me what about that first guy that said I want to have some milk, it comes in my head.
Speaker 2:Well, to be fair, I must have been telling that story for years, because I thought I said it recently as well. But yeah, it is weird to me. So the way I found out about sapiens was once upon a dream when I was single, dating, and I went to a house of a woman I was pursuing or whatever at the time and they just had one book and I was really into books at the time and I was just like, what is this? And it's sapiens. It was like, oh, that's a good book, read it. That was enough. I took a picture of it and I probably still have that picture on my phone. We should make it like the thumbnail for this podcast or something. Whereas, like sapiens, what is the book? And then it's like since then, that was in 20, I don't know, mid-20s. When did it come out?
Speaker 1:It's. Let me look at it. I'm just taking by your story, sorry. I'm just trying to picture you getting into somebody's house of a woman you were pursuing and all there was in that house was the one book, just the one book. That was enough. I'm going to read it.
Speaker 2:That was the only reason I was really pursuing it. I was like, no, I don't give a damn about you, I just want to know what you're reading. I'm going to take that out. The book came out in 2011, but this happened like five years later, so I was very late. I can't believe it came out in 2011. Yeah, when I don't know when the next ones came up. But no, I just because I remember. If you go to someone's house and take a photo of a book, in my memory that stands out right, you're like, why have I got this picture? And I remember having to go back up to find out. Because I was just really interested in, like, what books are good to read. And this one was, well, it's super popular. It's got what is it? 4.6 star rating on Amazon, let alone just the UK, let alone I don't know where else. But it's a great bestseller. But that was where my introduction to Sapiens came. And then I think I was really engorging, like reading it, like, oh, this is super interesting. If you'd like me, like to know, like, well, firstly, spoiler alert I feel like it just keeps saying that history repeats itself, like what the biggest things about it is? Nothing really matters and history repeats itself and we basically concocted a lot. So when we're talking about what was the first thing the cognitive revolution we went back to the start with the cognitive regular resolution. But it was like we all had just happened to have like a. We can all think drooply about certain things, right? So it's the ability let me read it up, let me make sure I'm getting this right so it's the ability of Homo sapiens to believe in shared myths and stories was a cornerstone of the cognitive revolution. So the fact that if we think of that's why I liken it to religions but just like societies and all of that, think race, think everything that's us thinking in shared think, we're like yeah, that's what our societies are built on. Now, that's what capitalism seems like it's made from, right, it's, we all agree. Money has currency, but it was our ability to do that that differentiated us from the Neanderthals or the other animals in the kingdom and that was like a big. That's why it's a revolution, right? Not a resolution.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think it's a great example. You touched on the fact that money has got belief behind it, right, because that's all it is Like. We believe that money works and we believe it to be a payment method, and because we believe in it it works. But if we stop believing in it and if we didn't trust it anymore, then that will collapse all of a sudden. And once upon a time when, let's say, like dollars were first issues, or when the concept of currency was actually born, especially exchanges, there was something behind it that provided a way. So each country had a certain amount of gold, for example, or a certain amount of silver, or had a certain amount of bronze whatever like value they were using and depending on the amount of gold that the US had, for example, and depending on the amount of gold that Great Britain had, that determined how much buying power each of the country's had. So if you have more gold, it means that your currency suddenly is worth more, because it's worth more than you can buy more of certain stuff. But that's stopped. That's actually not a thing anymore. So now currency is just nothing. So we believe that a dollar is worth I don't know what, is it 1.8 pounds or something like that. So that's just based on belief and on the fact that we trade the currency, but there is nothing behind it and it's scary.
Speaker 2:If you think about it right, it could be scary if it failed, if the like belief failed, but then like well, crypto currency is a great example of like one thing when people stop believing in it, but the fact that it's like the cornerstone of our existence. It's very unlikely. Like the chances that people will be like pounds won't worth anything. Collectively is usually inflation, where you just see countries where their money becomes nothingness and that's what tends to happen. But really that's not. Really. That's like, again, a consensus on that belief and unless there's a replacement, it's in unison. To be honest, it just feels like people don't have the the joint understanding of their power as consumers, if that makes sense. So you know, we dictate the price of stuff in our supermarkets a lot, but we don't realize it. Therefore we get charged a lot. So if everyone was just like and this happens where they will reflectively do it so if the milk was Too expensive and no one bought milk, the price of milk would be need to be subsidized. They'd have to be a way to make happen. But people would still buy milk because that cow needs to get its titties suck, regardless of what's happening. But if I have you ever thought about you know what did apple release that? What is apple release in that big headset, the what are they called the eye goggles or whatever? the cold I go to be swimming. But when you think of like deep fakes and VR, that's literally modern day extensions of our capacity to create and then immerse ourselves in our constructed realities. So if the whole point in the cognitive revolution is that we were able to agree on the reality that is real or fictional, like money, but then we just kept doing it over time in different capacities, like our social media personalities are not us. Everyone says that, but everyone still gets engaged in it and that's why the names given to them are very apt. But people I don't feel like people look into it. Influences tend to influence. Creators make content consistently right, but that's all Exactly. But then it's like creators tend to make things that you choose to watch and then you engage in this like you have to have bought into that. We bought into YouTube. Its existence is dependent on people being interested in what others have to say and stuff. But I think VR and like deep fakes and what apple is coming up with next and the fact that met her and others are making sure that there's this Processing, this ongoing cognitive revolutions, if that makes sense.
Speaker 1:I mean, forget about the future for a second. Let's just look at like the most recent past. I remember that I hate to talk about apple again, but apple pulled out an iPhone which you know I think it was called the iPhone 2G or whatever it was being sold with the idea that at some point in the future, someone will create apps that could then be used on the phone and people bought into it. Right Like, people bought into the phone and, yeah, that's true, put into the phone without having the apps, because they believe that something great was coming. And this is as you mentioned at the beginning. It's like history repeats itself, because it's a repeat of everything that's happening in the past. We have a belief may that be that thunderstorms are done by Zeus and that fires is done by our goddess. Just as a fruit.
Speaker 2:If it is it, I think if it does fire, shiva does, or I'm talking about find a fantasy for anyone who plays the game mythology.
Speaker 1:You want to talk about video gaming.
Speaker 2:I was the same names, different, different styles. I think I didn't as well, I don't know. But go on Anyway just moving away.
Speaker 1:You're mixing up mythology here. I'm just gonna ignore you for a second. It was a common belief. That people started believing that Zeus is in fact a personality is because he's a personality. You don't want to upset them because otherwise it's gonna be thunderstorms. It's gonna. You know, you gotta be a fan of him and then, as a consequence, you that bad things are gonna happen to you and it's a common thought, that common mind in a way I'll believe, that drives us to do things. And it's happened from. You know, we look back at history and laugh at things and we call them mythology. Now we do things today and we're gonna be doing things in the future, and someone in the future is gonna be looking at what we do today and probably laugh at us at the fact that we had those belief system.
Speaker 2:Maybe someone will laugh at us in the future for believing in money, the way that we do today well, back in the days, that's when they used to call them like the stone walls and the caves and stuff, and that's what we took to say, hey, they were telling stories from way back then and that's how it rolled on. But there's a lot of our I really don't want to skip into, like the human one, but there's a lot of our history that's just been passed on, that we bought into like religions and stuff that Just agreed, shared knowledge, like that all happened and when you say in the future they could look back and say, why do we believe in money? A lot of celebrities may or may not. The fact is I don't believe. Well, no, to my knowledge, I don't recall a hundred names from like the same period in history. Sometimes you find out that they overlapped, like oh, that they were born in the same time frame, but typically if someone was like 995 after this year, you don't think, okay, that's Elvis. That's like you could think of 50 or whatever in a certain time span. But there's a lot and right now we're making Millions of like super famous people that may not, may or may not matter in a hundred years, let alone in Two hundred years or whatever, but we're already bought into that society. The only name that comes to mind for some reason is Kanye West. He's a genius, he's crazy, he's actually bipolar. He's got mental issues. Honestly, the other day, someone show me literally yesterday, my friend show me a picture he'd been caught by paparazzi getting head on a was it gondola, one of those boats, by his wife. It was insane but I was just like Isn't living gone beyond yourself? Typically, about your name I think someone said this your name being acquainted with a thing like Tesla. Like it's not. It's not him you think of, but you think of everything it's done and it's like that goes beyond you. Like if Branson had called like virgin is what you'll remember. And if you smart, if you are into entrepreneurship, you know it's Richard Branson. Like is by Phil Knight, but you don't think Phil Knight. You think like you live beyond it. The only one who's managed to do it in his own name is like Jordan. That's why I watched it. It was in air. Where's like you live beyond yourself by what you've done, even if you try the most, so easy to make you and all of that and maybe with time that keeps going, but it's all Based on what we bought into. So the moment he said anti-semitic stuff, people stop buying into it. It takes out a lot of his thing but still people are still bought into it and I think it happens on a much smaller scale still. So In my life. I'll give myself an example. Let me know if you have one yourself. I know that I'll make like these societies or stuff when people do it in Dungeons and Dragons all the time. But I was just gonna talk about when we used to do insanity in university. The no days off team became a thing and it was this whole society of it just illusion. It's literally. We had a mindset, shared, common. We go early in I think it was like 6am, or we stay later, 6pm, whatever and we'll go and we'll do this exercise and it's as a group and we are this separate team. We might work with a lot of people, but this smaller group have the shared mindset and agreement that will do this exercise with a recall I never said I thought I was cool, I just thought I was keeping occupied and doing like beneficial things for myself. But it was still on that scale for me, an agreement, you know what I mean. And to the point that, like I took it with me afterwards like hey, I'm in this society, in this group, and I feel like Colts use it too, but do you have stories of like when it's?
Speaker 1:now it's interesting, right, because I'm just want to show last point. It was on a very, very small scale. So we had created a small exercise group, wheels got together to do this stupidly intense workouts, and there was almost like this brotherhood or this, this sense of Come come come right, come right from the front there and we did it but interestingly you didn't get a injured. I got injured and as soon as I got injured and I stepped away from the, from the workouts because obviously, like I couldn't do the workouts, I feel like an outsider. But it's really interesting because we create those groups and we feel insiders and we feel like outsiders and I think that's what distinguishes us from from the undertow or home erectors and the ability for us to be able to create this. We really abstract groups and classify ourselves and give ourselves Tags that tells us you're inside and you're outside. I mean realistically, like a cat is not gonna be looking at the southern thing. You know, I'm gonna go to the neighbors cat and I'm gonna create a little group and we're gonna create a Facebook group and we're gonna call yourself the cool cats. It's not gonna happen, right, like a cat doesn't care whether he's on Instagram or not, whereas we care and we care about our appearance because we've got that ability of, I guess, self-reflecting and and asking the question of who am I, where do I belong? And that's a. That question, I think, is what drives us to to build bigger things.
Speaker 2:I do think that, even so, I remember when you were suggesting doing this episode and I must have asked is it relevant? Like, what is the? It's such an interesting topic, but is it relevant? But then I'm like, I'm pretty sure the biggest minds are using this information to market to us, to sell to us, to bring Us into communities, to like, they use the storytelling, they use the fact that people have a joint mindset. So even with the new I'm talking about this Apple I'd say we really could look it up. I ain't got time for that Apple thing but they're like you said, it's all pinned on the fact that Developers will then make stuff for it to expand it out, to make sure it's, um, like, got that buy-in, so multiple people use it like. The other day I got a notification from the people who make the case on my phone which said They've got, they're ready for the next iPhone 15 when it's announced. I so they've already got buy-in so there's gonna be things made for it and it's like building that, hey, it's gonna exist, people are gonna buy it and of course it takes works from the people trying to sell something, but it also takes that belief in it that others would preemptively make cases for something that's not yet been released right preemptively make software or games to update to this Expectation that people will buy into that. And as long as we keep buying into it, then they keep getting richer and I'm like, well, that's what people must be using to fly in business. Even if not calling it that, it's literally that the that group think mindset that we don't like verbally say but we really utilize on a day-to-day basis, which makes it interesting to me it is, and and it is relevant because you asked me that question and I started questioning myself whether this topic was relevant at all.
Speaker 1:And it is because, if you look at the topic of marketing, which recently has become like such a huge topic for me in terms of, like being wanting to understand more and wanting to, to be able to, to make an Dent in in our marketing, for example, and the whole concept of funnels or the whole concepts of Getting a customer all the way from awareness to being bought into product or a company, it's all about what we just talked about, kind of creating that belief right and and identifying who the early adopters are going to be, catering for this early adopters, making sure that they become evangelist. And that's practically what successful companies have done, because they've got those Early adopters onto the early iPhones or the early Samsung and then they became evangelist. Then they go more of a group that comes and join you and the idea is that you create that ecosystem so that people don't question anymore whether you, whether you're gonna be going bankrupt three months down the line and Question whether they should be making Form cases for you. But it just happens because they believe that the iPhone is gonna be successful. They believe that the Samsung phone is gonna be successful and, as a consequence of that, when there is announcement, that is the iPhone 15 coming out now yeah they already are thinking about what's the next case, what's the next thing we're gonna be selling, because they know that it's gonna be a success story.
Speaker 2:The. I have a question. I have an answer in my head, but I'm just curious what's the dumbest version of, like the cognitive Revolution that you've bought into? So what's the dumbest group think mindset like a complex society is something that You've you've had in mind. If you want me to go first while you think of it, tell me, but I'm happy to wait, oh.
Speaker 1:I might have a few to feel throughout a second. Go first. Let me think about one. I go first.
Speaker 2:So one thing that comes to my mind immediately is multi-level marketing.
Speaker 1:Oh god.
Speaker 2:That's the whole premise, right where it's and I don't want to say names before they come from me and also there's a it's a thin line between like was it, ponzi schemes and multi-level marketing. So for you must be aware, this about where it's, like the ones who, who actually you can make money without having to register someone. So yeah and sell a product and make money and sustain from that. That's multi-level marketing, whereas if you really require bringing more and more people in this is how I understand it Then and that's the main source of income that's really a Ponzi scheme, because no one's really making money. You're just bringing more and more people into this to make money. And there was a time where it was for some form of vitamins, where a friend and it's always you get your friend who's like, hey, join this. And I was looking it up because I'm very cautious, but I was also like he's making money, I can make money, let's make money. And the ratio of how much do I need to sell? How many people do I need to bring in? But it's a lot of. Why do you need me to exist, for this, to flourish? You know what I mean. Like I don't know, but I remember I must have told you about that as well. You know exactly which name I'm thinking of.
Speaker 1:I know exactly what you're talking about. I remember like I've started two meetings. The first meeting was like, let's go like with the director of the group, and then there was selling us the dream. Who's then invited us to this, to this other event where there was someone else speaking who was super successful and and I love it because they got the tears right. So you've got like the director, you've got like the bronze director, you got a silver director, the diamond director. I was like you're gonna be running out of metals and you're running out of minerals soon. And I remember the guy that was talking at this event, at the I think. It was a holiday near Heathrow, hmm, so excuse me. He rocked up in a Bentley Bentley continental and I was just looking at that Bentley thinking, okay, yeah, I got it. You parked really close to the entrance, you're giving the impression of success. But I'm just thinking and looking at that car and the only question that popped in my mind was If you got so much money, what's the first thing that you're gonna do to a fancy car? I will get a plate, right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, eliza's play. Yeah, oh, it's least, isn't it? It's not, his Car was rental, of course. Yeah, the money, said the player the plate wasn't personalized.
Speaker 1:You can look up. The player did the rental and I think, if I remember correctly, he actually came up as a rental car, which was hilarious in my mind because, you know, I was already thinking about walking out from this conference, because it's one of those conference where they get to put your hand up, they get you to reply yes, they get you to buy in, you know, but the end of the session gonna be like one of us, one of us, one of us they get you cheering they get you cheering. Yeah, and After, after I saw the car that was like kind of like this throwing the commas back, and I thought like fuck this.
Speaker 2:But those cater to like people, like us, the entrepreneurial people, because you're really driven, you want to make some form of passive income, and they're like oh, here it is, you can do it, this is such an easy one. And it's like oh, but you know that if it sounds too good to be true. So they'm like it takes work, give us some money, don't worry about it, we'll get you in. Look, super successful, they're rich, you could be too. You go in and someone's like I made money this month, I'm rich as hell. How much did you put in?
Speaker 1:just don't worry about my out, go, I'm super rich and and and I love I'm just gonna make this last comment just close off to look, I love how they sell it as your own business, but actually you are dependent on their suppliers to actually give you the merchandise and you're dependent on their product actually existing and their systems and it kind of makes you think I'm not really. It's not my business. I'm practically like a reseller. That that's what I am and I'm selling to my own connections.
Speaker 2:But then also, don't they have? Some of them are like, don't talk to people about this. They're like, hey, they won't understand. Here's what you should say to them. Here's an item you should take just to make sure that you don't burst from that bubble because, like you said, you're really it's true the only. I think it's known after a while, or maybe not, that the only ones who make the most money are the ones at the top, the ones who start it paid. The ones who are anywhere levels below have an opportunity to make less or no money or whatever, and so where they get you in to be like I'm selling this person's product, they're like no, no, nice, your business, you're doing it yourself, don't ask anyone about it, don't tell. If you're gonna talk to family, just tell them this much and tell them it in this phrasing. And if you failed at doing it that way, then you're the problem, like it's not me, it's not my thing, it's you and it's yeah, it's well.
Speaker 1:And that's the thing right. So what can we take away? I think is that the fact that beliefs are so strong that we we can go as far as going to a multi-level marketing company or a Ponzi scheme which are one of theirs, and the people within those groups They've got such a strong belief about a product, a company and what they're there to do. They all buy into the one aim and objective and they're all united by it.
Speaker 2:So the power of belief is incredible one thing I want to add to that, because the scale which in which sapiens, of course, talks about it that I find Interesting is like when we're discussing it, we're talking about Apple, I keep mentioning religion, but it's like these stories are about, like you mentioned, zeus, gods. Then it's about, if you think about it, it's it's a fictional narrative and I'll say that very Currently like the book is like it's fictional, but it's gods, its nations, its money, it's human rights. All of these are fictional narratives that we as a group bought into on a massive scale, which actually led to, like the creation of whole civilizations. So, taking it down to our very small level of like, oh, mlms in business and like fitness groups, but the lines drawn in Africa was by someone with a pen and paper who went there and was like, actually, this is now two countries and, yeah, it's been bought in so much that it's caused wars and so much damage and it's and it's our capacity to do that that helps us to evolve, of course, but it's also wild, because it's the thing that can, it has so much power, and that's why I'm like, okay, if I can arm myself with this, then I'm go if I can arm myself with this, because even if it is fictional, quote-unquote, it's still Supremely powerful, and that's why I think it's also relevant to the day, which is why I said let's go along with this.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think that's almost like a perfect segue, in some way, to the, to the second topic which really stood out for me, which is all about the agricultural revolution, because you touched upon Someone with a piece of paper that has drawn lines across Africa, not realizing what they were doing to the pre-existing communities and cultures that exist in the continent, and that's all about also the class difference and the hierarchy that have been created over the year. No-transcript were derived all the way back to when the agricultural revolution started, and that's what this book actually talks about as well, which we're finding incredibly insightful. And the main idea here is that the author discusses how the cultivation of crops and the domestication of animals led to the development of agriculture as we know it today. In a way, okay, it's changed, it's developed over the years a little bit, but in a nutshell, that's when the development of agriculture started, and this transition enabled humans to produce more food than they actually needed, and it's allowed humans to become sedentary, so they didn't have to work anymore, they didn't have to go actively cultivate the field, they didn't have to do that if they could. That created social inequalities and, as a consequence of the social inequalities, that also created what we know as the nobles, the kings, the nations, the cities, and within those we see that almost amplification of the social inequalities.
Speaker 2:So I know that, like the outcome if you've seen sea spiracy or cow spiracy, they go into depths of the current outcomes of agriculture. But the way you vow Harari, the author frames it, is like you mentioned it's led to the food surplus and like huge population growth. Now the flip on the narrative, which I think was kind of shocking, is that it's kind of like the biggest fraud, purely because and I'm going to make sure I'm reading this right there's like five things we worked longer hours, we ate a less varied diet and experienced even more disease. So it's like by us domesticating we kind of domesticated us we managed to make agriculture boom at. And it's like again, at what cost? We don't really know at what cost. And it's wild when, because, if you think about it again, we've now settled into it. It's like so normal In fact, when people go against it. Take vegans or vegetarians, who are like whatever people tend to be like, are they talk too much, they've gone about it. And going back to the guy who first drank milk, I'm pretty sure he went up. He was like yo, trust me on this, you go on in on this. I don't know what you're talking about. It's like there's so now there's this current shift towards sustainable farming and plant based diets, right, which mirrors the complexities of our agricultural past. There's always a shift. Where it's it's another revolution and we've seen them come. That's why, even the fact think about it. I'm pretty sure 15 years ago maybe now I'm old, so maybe 20 years ago films like Sea Spirit and Cal Spirit you would have no audience or have a smaller audience. It wouldn't get the budget, it does not matter as much. But as time has gone on and we're like, hey, what's the results of our revolution? Well, we are getting a bigger population, but is it real? And hey, we are making sure that we work a lot more to make sure we sustain what we don't really even need to eat. It's kind of, yeah, it's wild, but yeah, and, like you said, it's made us more sedentary, just yeah a cost, I guess, of progression, if it's even necessary.
Speaker 1:And it's got the positive and the negatives right, because you talk about diet, then you look at some other aspects. You look at a lot to the quality of a standard of life has improved in a way, but it's improved in a way that was unequal, as I mentioned earlier. It's allowed us to, for example, sit in a house or like standing in a house, because I call a standing desk, and it's allowed us to develop technology to such a way that we've got a lot from me and two screens. And that's all done through the power of need, through the power of having not to worry so much about farming your food and allowing yourself to cater for other needs, because as soon as you start delivering on your pyramid of needs and as soon as the food is on the table, you are going to want to escalate onto the next level of the pyramid, and I can't remember what the seven steps of the pyramids are, but it essentially allowed us to be able to have other problems on our hands, as opposed to having to hunt for food or as opposed to having to grow the salad or grow the grains that end up being in your bread or in your lunch.
Speaker 2:I just want to say part of this revolution when it comes to the agricultural one that's had a huge impact, is the moment we all take in. The first cognitive revolution agreed as a group, this was correct. The impact is now like super severe. So farmers are key, people don't care, but it still matters and they are like a pivotal job for us to get to the meat or the veg or whatever type of food that we need to come We've chosen as a collective to consume. What that has meant is that if you watch any of those films I mentioned earlier, there's a lot of effects like the gases in the air. There's a number of like a more most wheat goes to feeding the animals than it does to feeding the humans. But then also, if you knock down that industry, you kill a whole like generational industry, like multiple areas that survive off. That and why this comes to mind is recently, like literally last week, I was talking with peers and there was one was talking about how Swindon and these North areas which used to be mining places, mining cities, once the mines shut it's not the North.
Speaker 1:Okay, we're talking about Midlands.
Speaker 2:Well, okay, let's go to Liverpool, but that's still a mining city, right? These areas in the North or whatever, where they had an industry that they survived off and their generational had been going like working in that industry when they shut it down, right, and what happened? That whole area has now got generations of people who, in this case, were on benefits and they don't even know how to work. You've now made a whole like culture or society that doesn't understand it. And it's very easy to look from the lens, from outside, where it's like, hey, man, just pick up, you know, pick up a book, read, do this, do this. Like simple steps that again took you society years to get to. That has impacted them. So now it's I don't know. It's very easy to look at the agricultural one where it's like, hey, there's this shift, remove this and shift to okay, stop eating meat as much. Hey, maybe we shouldn't have just been killing animals for such a long time and stuff, but one, there's preference. Hey, man, I like my meat. There was this whole have you heard this discussion, by the way where it's like if meat was lab grown, like it tasted exactly the same, but it was just entirely lab grown, did you eat it?
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's an interesting topic and I've brought this conversation up with a few people I know that are vegetarian, like myself, and it's definitely sparked some emotions. Yeah, right.
Speaker 2:It's a weird one. I don't think. And one thing about those questions is there's no right or wrong answer, there's only opinion. Right, it's the theorized opinion, but I've heard it and some are like and both of them are very like polarizing answers or contradicting or contrasting answers. Where they're like yes, I would, but no, I'd want real meat. Because I want real meat, it's like, yo, you're killing something for the sake of a feeling you have. I still want to do it. No, I wouldn't. Why are you eating veg if you really want to eat meat, tasting the flavor of the food? So there's like it could be triggering to either case, but it's still like the impacts of, I guess, our decision to be like, actually, at some point we need to harvest, we need to harvest corn, we need to harvest these vegetables. Actually we need to make sure that cows and pigs and chickens and sheep and all of this and I do love the marketing of the names where, like a lamb and like, if you look at meat poultry and you rename it in a way that sells better, you don't have to worry as kids what you're eating. So this isn't the same thing that you see other than chicken. I'm pretty sure beef is you know steak? That it no one just says cow.
Speaker 1:But actually even chickens. It's actually a hen in a cock, right, it's not chicken. Chicken is the name of the meat.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, so it's ways around, that's so true. And then there's bacon and ribs and there's like just whatever. It's all just different words for body parts. And honestly, I know about, you're vegetarian, I'm not vegetarian, so to me I just find it very interesting to discuss. But we've managed to take that aside. We've managed to eat some and then domesticate other animals, right, and then that's where you like oh, actually, we've given this new hierarchy to certain species or certain animals. There's actually a book that I've not yet read that I keep meaning to is like why we eat X, cook Y and keep Zed as pets, or something like that. I'll find the exact name somewhere in this episode, but it's so interesting to see the disjointedness of like, hey, we as a unison say, hey, don't eat dogs there, but let me eat my chicken. And hey, leave the cats alone, but I'll keep that one as my pet, even though they were not supposed to be. I don't know, it's just interesting.
Speaker 1:It's interesting and I've got like, as you were talking. I was thinking about three things. I'm going to mention them briefly. Feel free to rejuggle, like what my responses are, into different sections of the podcast this is up to you but the two things I was thinking about. One of them was the dependency that you mentioned, and the dependency is interesting because I think countries, successful countries, have actually learned from dependencies and no-transcript. The phenomena that has happened in the past few years is that people have noticed that there is countries or cities, specifically in the UK, that historically were, for example, dependent on the mining of coal and historically, in the past 30 to 40 years, those particular cities, as you mentioned, have actually been worse off as a consequence of coal mines actually being closed off. And there have been companies that have actually seized that opportunity and they've seized it as an opportunity to open up, for example, businesses, warehouses, other kind of jobs, to retrain the members of those societies to be able to work in the warehouses. But because he presents himself as an opportunity, people have been quite willing to join those new jobs without having to complain much, whereas actually if you take that exact type of job and you, for example, open it up in London or somewhere else where there is more travelling areas or more travelling business, suddenly you get a lot more pushback. And it's interesting because this is kind of like a direct observation around seizing the opportunities that arise from the way that the world has developed. But also I was just reading an article earlier in the week about Bali. Having done something quite similar. In a way, they have noticed that during the pandemic the majority of their income was to tourism and obviously, as you kill tourism because of the pandemic, they had to readjust themselves. So now they are in a position that is like, okay, we're not going to go through that again. So what are we going to do to make sure that we are not dependent on income coming in from tourists only? And now they are doing things with local entrepreneurs, widening up the hub that they already have so that they can have more business coming in, so that they're not dependent on tourism as much as they've been in the past, because they don't want to be placing themselves in exactly the same position. And of course we also see the same thing in Saudi Arabia, where they don't want to be dependent on oil and they're trying to depend more on tourism and trying to depend more on building up their football as well, bringing in the big star so that it creates and generates wealth. So it's really, really interesting how the book talks about this concept, but actually, if you look at a very, very, very high level, government level, almost running a company kind of level, people are noticing those patterns and making the most out of it in terms of understanding and realizing how they can use them to grow a country or grow a business successfully.
Speaker 2:This is why I said it's still patterned for us to do this topic, because it's like on a very smaller scale. It's like how do we utilize this ourselves? I'm not even talking about anyone else, just me and you specifically, like how do we use this ourselves? And it's funny, you talk about Bali. I didn't know that they were trying to bring in, like not focus as much on tourism, because I didn't think of Saudi, where I know they're trying to focus more on tourism Because they've had oil and gas, so they're building the line. They're doing a number of things. They're paying footballers Extreme amounts of money. I think I don't want to get the name wrong, I think it might be Neymar he's getting paid like 500 million. His whole family all get houses, he gets a house. They all get personal drivers, like just get a house, you get a house, you get a house, they get everything. So they get a stupid this amount of salary, but on top of that they get everything paid for, so they don't actually need to spend the salary, but that's all to bring more people towards Saudi. Which is funny, because I'm like in Covid, what was like the impact was different, I guess because they had, but they're like, ok, this isn't sustainable. How do I do something right now? And if you look at Dubai and you look at even Oman and other areas where what they looked like 20 years ago versus now and you can see the drastic change, but you wouldn't even think if you go there now, if this is like the first time you've gone there that how they were before, like they do these massive shifts. And so it would be curious for me to hear because the way I've heard, saudi is like the most Middle East Middle East in terms of like I know Oman's the tourist one for people in the Middle East to visit, but when it's like Saudi is like nah, you can be a tourist anywhere else, but in Saudi you got to just abide entirely. You know what I mean. It's a different scale and it was. It's just interesting to see how they transitioned to try and use these things that benefit. One thing I just want to add on, by the way, the book I was mentioning before I butchered the name. It's called why we Love Dogs, eat Pigs and Wear Cowls and it's by Melanie Joy, if you're curious about it. I've not yet read it yet, but it's one of my. Just the net title alone sounds very intriguing to me, because I've always asked that question like how do we decide this?
Speaker 1:And I think that that's the. That's another topic which I find particularly interesting because, as a vegetarian, I always see the discussions around oh, you know, like you shouldn't eat dogs and like you know, people are wrong for eating dogs. It's like why people? Are people not wrong for eating pigs and eating cows? What's the difference between the two? And you know, I'm saying this is a pet owner right, and it's actually quite funny because just recently we had a trainer come to our house and the trainer is obviously trying to give a little bit of background and trying to make us understand the fundamentals of having a puppy. And the first thing that the guy says is like OK, we're going to agree on some fundamental things here. I was like, ok, great, firstly, your dog is an animal. Cool, I agree with that, I can get behind that. Secondly, your dog is a wild animal. Ok, check, I look at my dog. Dog looks at me like that's licking my foot. I was like not so sure how wild she is. But he's right in a way it's a dog, is a wild animal, it's actually a descendant from the wolves and we've decided to. We've decided at some point, maybe like hundreds of years ago, we decided that actually that wolf might be really useful If we take some of the positive traits and we beat out some of the negative traits and we make it into an animal that can look after our belongings or whatever the aim was at the beginning. And now a few, a few years on the line and a few generations on the line, I end up with a cockapoo that looks like a halon cow and licks my feet and eats my shoes.
Speaker 2:One thing you say when the because hearing the train say that I'm like that's so interesting to hear that they start with that. But honestly, the way people treat their pets like they're their children, like their actual children Shut up, that's why I didn't know, because to me and like, honestly, I've not had that where I've had to decide like, oh, but they're like, no, that's my son and you know they'll keep it in their thing, it's my, their pet parents. But no, there's pet parents. And then there's people who just say I'm a parent and it's like of, and then they mentioned, said animal and you're like, you didn't say pet there, you just literally said you're like you gave birth to this. I don't know. That to me is always interesting to hear. That's why it's it's interesting to hear that the trainer said this yeah, because I know that. I don't know right, so I don't presume to be right or wrong on the topic, but they have a train to be like, hey, this is not only an animal, it's a wild one. And you're like, yeah, ok, but then it's like, hey, the moment you die, I promise to God I'm going to eat you. Just trust me on this, I'll take good care of your skin, like I think the cats would eat you before the dogs, or something like that, whereas and to me that's love, because your child wouldn't selfish bastards but your animals would make sure you don't go to waste. I think it's a difference. Have we gone off topic? I don't think so. It's still rising.
Speaker 1:I think this fits into, like the agricultural revolution and how we have domesticated animals. But you know, it just goes to show, I think, that that book I've been interested in reading it. I think it's called like a law. It's very emotionally loaded in a way, because it is a very hot topic and I know that there is vegetarians and vegans that will say you know, eating animals is wrong, and I feel I feel the same. And then you got the flip side of the argument where you're like oh, you know, but we got to give people the ability to eat and I don't think there is any way of telling who is right and who is wrong. And I'm saying this quite objectively. I can see that it's impossible to settle the argument in a way.
Speaker 2:I think, to pull it in as well, because we go to the domestication of animals. But OK, let's think as to why, right, why did we domesticate? We can start with horses. We wanted to travel further. If not for someone saying, hey, what about vehicles? We'd still be using horses. We probably have moved on to pigs. Whatever way, ways work to try and move faster and it was like OK. And then, for there were shepherd dogs as well, the ones that we used to like herd sheep and stuff, and there was a number of different ones that we used because of the surplus food production, because we were like, hey, the population is growing and it's chicken and the egg, like it's a circle. Which one started? Which? Was it that we just started making too much food and was like we need to sustain this, or was it that we made too many people? Either ways, I think even the book explains it, but still that has only driven further this need. And then the need that being like let's domesticate more animals. And then, over time, it's like, actually now we're just making pets, and some have very short lifespan, some have longer ones, but we still use them, and now even horses. They were like it's over, we don't have to carry people like now and our horse racing, fox hunting, whatever it takes. And it's the thing that makes me laugh about tradition or, like you know, these things have been in my history for years, so this is just what we do. Is that it started somewhere? Like we kicked off the episode with, like the milk about who's the first person to drink milk. But the first person to ride a horse must have been wild as hell to like what are you doing, joe? The hell, are you doing? Walk with me. It's going to take us like six weeks. We'll get to the other side of the river like now, man, I'm jumping on this motherfucker that takes me there in like couple hours. I refuse to hear what you're saying and it's. But then, yeah, it became the norm, then it became tradition and then, when things changed, the most likely was uproar against said change, like no, it's unnatural for us to take any form of it. And I always go back to the story of the lifts. You know how they have to have someone just standing inside it, it's OK, you don't have to do anything. And they're like nah, you've got to press buttons and you've got to make magic happen. And now we're getting into the newest one. It's like OK, we are going to have cars which only boost our sedentary lifestyle. We've got now, delivery food. We've got delivery of goods, we've got the delivery of everything. We've got home cooked meals that are made somewhere else and taken to us and then we're not even going to have to move to go from somewhere to another place. Like we're really doing the most to make sure we don't have to do stuff. Now we've got AI, which means we won't even have to think it's like. It's like OK, we're doing all of this and we'll still hold on to things that we did for the sake of getting here. Like, no, but I still need some form of domesticated animal. I still need that crop to be grown. I still need that food to be eaten. That's why that question about if they made artificial meat which would move that, would you still eat it, would you not? It's a question because it's like hey, once we've made a decision as a civilization, we've agreed on it and it pushed us to where we are now, just because something new came along that made it unnecessary, doesn't matter to me. It doesn't matter. And the damage it's doing, let it ride, like for some people let it ride. For others, it's like it's time to adapt or die, like, hey, that was maybe necessary for the time, or maybe not even necessary. Maybe it was like once we bought into this system, money was the biggest thing and it's been marketed perfectly to make us seem like it's a requirement, but it's still just. Yeah, it's not really one, and I think that's like all key in the agricultural and still cognitive revolution. The biggest thing, like I said, for me is how do you as a person use it to your benefit? What can we do about it? I guess it's about adaptability.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think the one thing that I'll probably take away from here is that we have shown, as a race, to be adaptable and flexible regardless of what has actually come our way, and that's inspired us to create invention, to essentially realize that there is a problem and come up with a solution so that that problem was resolved. And that's fundamentally at the core of any good businesses or any thriving businesses Realizing that there is a gap in something not being done really well, or perhaps there is a problem that is resolving. And I think we've shown, time over time, that some individuals, some businesses, have actually done really well and have actually been able to make a success out of it. And I think that's probably what we can take away, because it's a really good lesson and a reminder that if you're looking to start a business, or if you're looking to start a side house or whatever it might be looking to promote, understanding that success is actually going to be finding a solution to a problem, it's probably going to accelerate your journey a lot more, because I think there is a lot of people that end up creating a product and think that a product is the best thing in the world, but if it doesn't solve a problem. It's actually not going to get you anywhere.
Speaker 2:That's true. I don't even really have to add on to that. I do think that's it. Sometimes people create problems. To solve the problems, I will say that you'll see that ongoing in the workplace and stuff. Or sometimes people don't realize or consider things a problem.
Speaker 1:For instance, hey, we can be using vehicles rather than using horses and they're like no, I think we're good, we've got carriages now We've upgraded, but even still, I tell you what right I think the best one that we're creating right now is that we're looking at tech like self-driving cars and we're thinking, oh you know what is the car going to decide if a child jumps in front of the car? It's like, is that even a problem? Realistically, and if we think about the bigger picture of that, let's say that we had automatic cars that you can book and use actually when you need it. Suddenly, you need less cars on the road. You've got less greenhouse gases, you've probably got less accidents because the cars can communicate to one another. You probably have the ability to have less cost in your life. Those are just four things. Somehow we still reject the idea, because we want ownership, because we want to drive the speed that is actually going to kill us, and because we want to have our own car because we don't want to share with others.
Speaker 2:That's living, though I'm not even going to play devil's advocate. I don't like to advocate for the devil, but I get when people are just like, yeah, but what's living? For instance, taking a back, because when you said about having just automated cars, you'd have to remove people and then you saw to make it. If you think about planes and flights, it's usually or it's when someone gets involved in it that it crashes. Usually, if you just let the plane do its thing, it's fine, but there's always going to be people who want to drive. And if you take it back to like just when, electric cars because it's not that Elon Musk did much besides the marketing or branding of electric cars, because they existed. People have had options and it's amazing how many things get shut down earlier on. But the biggest one I heard at the time was the noise. People just wanted to hear it. They, like I, am used to hearing a rev. This car goes faster than I. Don't care, I want the rev.
Speaker 1:I can't record it for you.
Speaker 2:Literally they do, they record it and make the noise. And now I know that like, of course, don't get it twisted. Electric cars aren't all great Like they end up in landfills. They build a lot of waste, they break down three times. And what's his name, mr who's. The boss made a video about one of his most expensive, unnecessary purchases. He spent 108k on an electric car that he couldn't they didn't couldn't charge. Like every time he tried to drive for a distance he couldn't get to a charging point, so it was pretty useless. So it's not like it's all great and rainbow it's just because you come up with a solution. But the investment piece is if more people have an interest, then they'll do more to make sure that's not a problem. Like literally, if the charging is the issue and you can make it faster and think which is a possibility if more people buy into it, it could be a nice alternative. But still, it's the A I want. I want it to vibrate when I drive it because I'm used to that. I don't feel comfortable with this and if anything about technology is taught, well, if technology has taught me anything seeing like two year olds or whatever on iPad swiping through apps and games faster than thing, it's like it's a very much convenience of now, convenience of me, not convenience of humans. It's not convenience of the future, it's convenience of I don't like this, I want me like this, I okay, cool. And then I also want my children to do the same thing, because I want them to be like me, like okay. So fuck nature, fuck nature is what I'm trying to say. Fuck evolution, fuck all of that. All I want is what I want, and it's interesting, but it's where we're at. I feel it's where we're at.
Speaker 1:So you come to the end of the episode called the fuck, nature fuck.
Speaker 2:Fuck evolution If you don't take anything else away, fuck that. No take. If there's one point I want you to know is that once upon a time a man went up to a cow and he stroke that cow's back. He whispered sweet nothings. His wife beckoned him in the house and he said now I have business to attend to. And did he suckle on that teat? Yes, he did. And today do we all suckle on the teat of that man's descendants decisions? Yes, we do. Long live history.
Speaker 1:If that happened today, I think a Gen Z would come out and say that like that's animal bestiality.
Speaker 2:True. If he did like I'm saying, put his lips to the beast to the beast, then maybe, but if it's true, to be fair, even just squeezing too tight, it's a bit sus.
Speaker 1:Anyway, with that grass.
Speaker 2:I think that takes us to the end of the episode, unless there's more that you'd like to add in no, I'm good I think I'm done with this reality. This has been another episode of the Needle Movers podcast. I've been one of your hosts, Mark Jason.
Speaker 1:And I've been one of your other hosts, but I'm also. Until next time, adios.