Transforming Career Struggles into Successful Transitions

Ever been bamboozled by a boss who gifted chickens instead of bonuses? Well, brace yourself for an unparalleled story that challenges the conventional boss narrative and serves as a testament to the importance of authenticity and magnanimity in leadership. We unpack a tale that's straight out of an episode of The Office, revealing the enduring impact a unique boss can have on their team dynamics.

Feeling like a hamster on a wheel in your current job? You're not alone. We dive into the murky waters of workplace discontent, exploring the signals that it's time to jump ship. From microaggressions, racism, and sexism to the feeling of kissing the ceiling of career growth, we spill the beans on how to navigate these complexities and make career decisions that align with your personal advancement and fulfillment. 

As the cherry on top, we deliver a masterclass on the art of quitting. Yes, you read that right - we empower you with a rock-solid five-step framework to help make the leap if your career goals are gathering dust on the shelf. Don't worry, we've got your back as we discuss the potential challenges and rewards that come with such a monumental decision. Finally, we dissect the unique experiences of working from home and being your own boss, and share insights on when it might be time for a career pivot. So grab your headphones and buckle up for a wild ride into the depths of the workplace jungle!

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

Firstly, the person who's who's writing this was engaged. He gave out whole chickens. It's like you need me to slaughter this. I'm gay. I'm fully gay.

Speaker 2: 0:11

I'm just thinking right so I can interrupt you like this is your first job in America. At what point during your journey do you not think this piece of bit fucked up? Hello and welcome to a new episode of the Needle Movers podcast, where today, we'll be exploring the topic of how do you know when it's time to quit, or, in other words, when is it the right time to switch up your career. As part of today, we're going to be reading a small story that we found online, and then we're going to have a discussion leading on to two key takeaways for today, but I'll leave it to you, mark, with your story.

Speaker 1: 0:51

Okay, so this story I found on Reddit and it piqued my interest, but it was so on topic, so it's. The title of the thread is do bosses like Michael Scott actually exist? And if you work, slash, worked for one, what's your craziest story? Now, for those who are unaware, michael Scott is the boss from the series the Office. They had a UK and the US run and it's super famous. But let's just get into this post. So I'm reading from here my first boss in America. I was 21. He was Asian American. I had never seen the office but noted the absurdity. He would get free potato chips from a guy in a company truck and would stuff his cheeks in the middle of telling me what to do. He always offered me some. He always offered him something. Fire the co-worker for screaming some racist stuff at me. Just yanking her out the door. No, by sorry, by just yanking her out the door.

Speaker 2: 1:50

That's how you find people. It's America right.

Speaker 1: 1:55

Called another co-worker a cub or a baby lion because she was tiny and wild. No, she was tiny, with wild, unruly hair, would do a small mini roar whenever she was about to report for her shift or when I mentioned her name. I can't ever see this Right around the place with a wig on his head, imitating me. By the way, this is all one post and it goes. Oh, my god brought his daughter to work and give her piggyback rides in the office. Would ask me to take videos. That's kind of nice, to be fair.

Speaker 2: 2:33

That's cute, that's kind of cute.

Speaker 1: 2:34

Okay, this is cute too. We're taught to black people in a black way. He would say what's up, shorty, to the ladies and what's popping? Call the guys Tyrone and say she, in his most convincing black voice. It was actually pretty good, which is would ask me to teach him random Arabic words so he could yell them sporadically in the middle of the day.

Speaker 2: 3:01

He always got the accent right. I feel like it's okay, I'm going to go to the office.

Speaker 1: 3:06

be like yalla baby yalla when he was faking being black or Arabic somehow he was really good. He had an open door policy and would do shots in his office. I like that. He didn't try and hide his lifestyle. He started a small chicken farm in the back of the building and would give out whole chickens to the staff. Had me and a co worker try to slaughter one one time. I couldn't and nicked it just a little bit and shrieked, spraying all three of us with blood. I like personally the person who's who's writing this was engaged. He gave out whole chickens is like you need me to slaughter this? I'm gay. I'm fully gay.

Speaker 2: 3:53

I'm just thinking right, so it's interrupt you like. This is your first job in America. At one point during your journey, do you not think this piece of this fuck?

Speaker 1: 4:04

I didn't even realize it was their first job to me. I forgot that. I read that it was his first job in America. Here's all hers, to be honest, and it's Imagine that's what you think. The work places like that because I don't see how I wouldn't have got a case. And this is just anarchy is what it means. This is the case.

Speaker 2: 4:25

How is this person, how's this person not seen the red flags like? Does it stop at seeing someone being yanked out of the door, maybe lying roaring?

Speaker 1: 4:33

They don't mention when they came from. So far, what I can tell is that they're Arabic, potentially, and also, I don't know, because the red flags turn beige the moment they're really good at it, the moment they're able to be like. They turn around was popping and is like yo. That's a convinced us black voice. Have you got something in? You received a visit from the city people to tell him he couldn't keep chickens in back. He was rounding the main floor with a small basket of freshly laid eggs, just as they were asking for it Did. The chicken farm again next summer, this time with a small garden growing squash, cucumber, corn etc. To disguise the chicken coop, happily gave out vegetables along with chicken. This man was adamant that you can get some chickens.

Speaker 2: 5:30

This guy has something to. Can you imagine, like the number of like activities that you could do, like, think about, like the workplace, and how happy everyone is right?

Speaker 1: 5:37

I really forgot that this person supposed to be working in the middle of it. This is their boss. Like yo, let's do this chicken farm. Let's also know these chicken. And they keep giving out. It's not like they're not sharing, which is to be fair. I rate this boss so. Some bosses wouldn't give you a meal of their plate. This guy's giving a whole chickens out. Would be extremely proud of taking home a tray of his own eggs to his children. Ate two fresh eggs every morning. See, some nice guy bought a walk to bro Okay, let me say this again bought a walk to work to deep fry sausages in. Sometimes made lunch in the back. The entire floor would smell like food and he would round us all there's three of us to his office to eat. See, very generous, there's only three of them. That's a four person office. That's not that bad. Would regularly fall asleep under his desk. The snoring was so loud you could hear it in the front. Once a client asked what the noise was and I said it was the plumbing, woke up after his naps, looking puffy but acting as if nothing happened, would immediately go next door for a cherry coke. We're constantly eat hard candy to stay awake during the day. I always got tactics. I used to pull a sleeve of work. This makes it. I never tried hard. Candy is a struggle and it seems like they fell, since they were already on the desks. And then again cherry coax. This man must have had diabetes, ate too many edibles at a party I hosted once and passed out. He's made it to your house. It seems like this is your friend by this time.

Speaker 2: 7:19

I'm starting to. I'm starting to think here that the problem perhaps isn't the boss, but perhaps the problem is the employee.

Speaker 1: 7:26

But they're enabling him Like he keeps giving out chickens while he takes the whole chicken home, he's grateful. Told me to hire someone. But when he saw the girl did a comical thing with his face, eyebrows raised and eyes big Think Ken young because she was having trouble fitting into her chair she was a bigger girl Took away chairs the next day because they encouraged us not to concentrate on the client. The girl was a no cool, no show. The following week, this man the thing that keeps getting me is every line is followed by the next thing they did which relates to the previous line. He took away the entire chairs. Encouraged us not to concentrate on the client. I've never heard that as a line. Why are you sitting down for? Why are you sitting where you should be focusing on clients? You ain't got time to sit, stand up and focus. Had a love-hate relationship with a groundhog not long into his farming venture. He never caught. The guy Once threw a cricket at me from the very opposite end of the office floor. He and another co-worker kept such straight faces as I finally convinced myself. The cricket flung itself at me. I watched the cameras at the end of the day only to see them do it. I'm still traumatized. That's a good line, that poker face Pass an office to this day, to this day, full of the weirdest collection of things, a few fevers from favorite chickens of his that he had since consumed all-nit. But wait, this is the weirdest writing A few fevers Mark as an office.

Speaker 2: 8:57

to this day the guy is still working there.

Speaker 1: 8:59

This is well. I wanted to see when this was posted. Let me make sure this was three years ago. To be honest, I feel like they are still working there, but the writer I feel like the person writing this post ran out of English at this point in time, let me try, I'm so close to the end has an office to this day full of the weirdest collection of things A few fevers not fevers from favorite chickens of his that he had since consumed all-nit. That sounds fucking psychopathic. A rabbit paw. Someone gave him A goat. A framed quote I told him. I told him, told to me by a very high, homeless person. I don't remember the rest. It's just an odd place to go into. Firstly, a very high homeless person tells you something you go and tell your boss. Now. Does your boss say, oh, interesting story. Or rather the type to go and get that framed and put on their desk Because that's how encouraging they are, fucking hell.

Speaker 2: 10:04

I feel like my boss would try and put me on a management plan.

Speaker 1: 10:10

Like what? Also, no one's questioning why this man's talking to very high homeless people. How do they know how high this homeless person is? What is this? Had a hard time growing a beard and would ask me what I thought of the progress of his soup taster. Not heard of that before. Oh good, nicest boss I've ever had. Well meaning, if a little racially insensitive or while being fascinated by other people's cultures, who'd buy different cuisines for us to try each week, gave bonuses because he knew the job didn't pay much, so that was always a nice surprise. He paid my former co-worker when she had to stay home, all through her husband's COVID. He made it through COVID Also. He loves llamas, alpacas, baby goats, and when I showed him how to use Reddit, he would almost always send me an alpaca phone. I still get a photo now, and then Also, three years after leaving, he still sends me photos of his illegal farm and recently asked me to post his cucumbers on Reddit. What the hell? Okay, wow, okay, that's it. There's an edit, but wait. Also, I forgot to add that he fell into poison ivy bush once and didn't know right away. He ran around screaming until we sat him in the office semi-undressed and put medicine on his wounds. He was so miserable. For days it was harder. He dove head first into the wall when asleep once and needed to go to the doctor and get free stitches on his busted lip. He came to work that morning with a huge lip and kept having to explain himself all day. We kept joking His wife was beating him. He still insisted on snacking, as usual. At one point he sipped ketchup with a straw. This man is not real. That's what I've decided. There's no chance that that person exists. This is a character from a show that's being created. This is a comic, right? This is a cartoon. I can see all of this happening in the cartoon, where reality isn't existing. I like that. He's a nice boss. If I'll be a racially insensitive, a few microaggressions here and there I've done. That was one of the longest posts I've had to read. Let's make it slightly shorter. Jesus Christ, have you heard? Wow, yeah, can you. I feel like we should play the five second rule game, except you just have to mention like five, no three Non-work appropriate topics that he's managed to cover in one go. Like, because if I had, if I was oh no, I got five seconds. Microaggression, racism and sexism? I don't know. Yeah, because the woman no. No, that's fat shame the fact that he went above and beyond and was like no, I just just. Those aren't necessary. They are distracting us from the clients. Why do you think you'd need a chair in the first place?

Speaker 2: 12:47

But it makes me wonder, as, all right, did he invest in standing, standing desks so that he could get rid of the chairs, or was he just explaining people to squat?

Speaker 1: 12:55

The way we both know, this man did not have standing desk. Like the way we both know, this man was 100% like y'all don't need chairs, they're distracting from clients, but my desk, sir, it's a meter off the ground. That's none of my business. It's the most insane I have you to. I don't have any boss stories that can meet that. I, like the. The OP didn't even know the office so well. He was like I don't know this Michael Scott guy, but I had a crazy arse boss and he had then loaded and even in his edit he had more.

Speaker 2: 13:32

The character from from the office is pretty eccentric, right Like he tries to be everybody's friends in the in the show and he does some very inappropriate things.

Speaker 1: 13:43

Very true to be fair, but not like this, Because the chicken farm is one thing, but to re-up and come back and then sell vegetables with it, Like, oh, the reason that I got caught and he was given our eggs the day they came round to catch him is the oh no, it's too wild.

Speaker 2: 14:03

I'm sorry, but I think the one that sticks with me is the baby lion.

Speaker 1: 14:07

The baby, oh, rolled around them the Arabic and the Tyrone, and shorty, that there's too many, I can't yeah. But you know what point are you in that office?

Speaker 2: 14:20

And you think, okay, okay, this is normal. Is it justifiable, that being your?

Speaker 1: 14:25

first job? Yeah, have you ever heard of that story where?

Speaker 2: 14:28

and I think this has been the bank and it's not true, but there was always a story that you know. Think of global warming, as if if a frog was sitting in water and you heat up the water more and more, little by little, the frog would just stay there because it doesn't realize, like how much the water is being is being heated. And this is the same case whereby when you're in an office and a little bit crazy happens and then you start adjusting to the crazy, like to the point that from an external perspective we think like this is, this is bonkers, but he's sitting inside and thinking, yeah, it's okay, it's not as crazy as yesterday. Have you ever heard of Stockholm syndrome?

Speaker 1: 15:08

Because that's what it sounds like. You know what? You're right. I didn't know about the it being debunked, the frog in the water, but it's true. But I feel like the first crazy was the bar, and once they crossed the bar they were like oh, I'm here now. Like you can tell, they left for a reason that wasn't to do with the boss and knowing when it's time to switch. How do you know when it's like oh, maybe this isn't for me, because from an outside perspective as well, they're looking at the boss, but they're also looking at the people collecting the chickens. They're looking at the people who have stayed the whole time not in their heads, like my name's not Tyrone, my name's Daryl, but okay, I guess that's where it goes and you're all looking like a group. It's not a one person job.

Speaker 2: 15:58

I think there's also the element of if you sit in a crazy ass place, right Cause that's what it sounds like, it was a crazy ass place, I'm expecting, I'm expecting, so yeah, and you must still be having a good time. And then you look at all your colleagues and you know, imagine COVID. So in the last three years, you might be thinking this place isn't so bad, like people out there are struggling. Maybe they don't want to work in our warehouse, maybe they don't want to work for Amazon. You don't know, I wouldn't, I wouldn't, I wouldn't.

Speaker 1: 16:24

I won't take away from the fact that they said he was nice, he gave like bonuses. He understood they weren't getting paid much in the job and so he did the most, although when he decided to fire you luckily for me, I don't have hair to be yanked by there are lawsuits that could happen all over the gap for that one. That's the insane part of it. They are lawsuits galore, but I guess that's. Everyone has a different bar at which they can take. You know what I mean Stress, and for each one is different. But for I guess, looking at it from a corporate perspective, that one is an insane one. That's why we think it's a crazy place. I don't know what it was. They had clients. This wasn't like a chain. This is some next up.

Speaker 2: 17:11

Makes you wonder what the business was. But that's not the topic for today. The topic for today is very much all about understanding. At what point do you realize that you will need to pivot and what point do you realize that your workplace doesn't really fit you and your growth prospects anymore?

Speaker 1: 17:28

Yeah, that is the topic. So Val for yourself when was the last time you considered pivoting?

Speaker 2: 17:36

I think quite honestly now it's been super recently, probably like last two, three months.

Speaker 1: 17:46

Last night I was sitting in bed rocking back and forth, thinking. I wish I had a chicken right now.

Speaker 2: 17:53

I've been considering it for the past three months, I think, actively considering it, and I think what pushed me wasn't definitely it wasn't definitely any chickens in the office. It's been more around the topic of fulfillment and it's been around how I feel about myself at work and whether I feel that I've been accomplishing. I think, since I've slotted into this role probably about two years, two and a half years ago, however long it was I don't have the same level of fulfillment and don't have the same level of achievement. And although the work-life balance is great and although the work is very mentally stimulating, I don't have the same level of I feel good about what I'm doing and I think I attach a lot of my worth to the work that I do and to the accomplishment of the work that I do. And as a consequence of that, I've had some self-worth questions coming up very, very often in the last six months or so and it's making me question where I am at the moment and it's making me question whether I've made the right move. I have a lot of questions in my head at the moment. So yeah answering your question very recently.

Speaker 1: 19:14

I think what you're saying as well when I'm liking it to the story that I just read out from Reddit. Right, it's a lot of internal like it's oh, I don't feel like this is the play and I feel like you could stand a crazy boss. That's not directly like. At no point was it like they were directly negative to the employee In this circumstance. It was just about like, how do you feel in that position and if you ain't feeling fulfilled, like you've got the work-life balance, so you take away that insane workplace and you're like ah, I'd probably stay a bit longer in a situation where I actually feel like I'm able to develop or grow.

Speaker 2: 19:54

Yeah, it's interesting, right, because I've you read the quote that says people don't leave bad jobs, they leave bad managers.

Speaker 1: 20:01

Yeah, I've read that.

Speaker 2: 20:03

I don't have, like, a terrible manager. I'm not in that situation and I think when you have a bad manager, I think that extrinsic factor that comes in it's a bit more in your face. So I don't have someone coming around trying to give me eggs and trying to convince me into killing a chicken and I think, because I haven't got that extrinsic factor, I don't get that little bit of a push that pushes you over the edge and I'm left with you know, feeling content and posing myself questions around. You know I'm really fulfilled and I think that's potentially like not enough for me to to make that jump or make that pivot, and that's why I've been sitting on this decision and be sitting on this kind of circumstances for quite a long period of time, do you?

Speaker 1: 20:56

feel uncomfortable.

Speaker 2: 21:00

In what way?

Speaker 1: 21:02

Well yeah so I asked that because I'm thinking of my own answer. But I also ask it means of like is the work comfortable, but the position you feel about it uncomfortable is what I mean.

Speaker 2: 21:16

The work is comfortable Probably too comfortable, and that's part of the part that I don't like. There is skills I'm learning, which is great, but I don't feel that those skills give me the same authority or the same level of decision making that I used to have in my previous role. So in my previous role, to some extent I had I was making fairly large decisions. I was. I was putting together proposals that affected a business at a much higher level. Those projects that I'm running at the moment, yeah, they're great because you know they are like multimillion pound sorry, multimillion dollar projects, but at the same time, I don't feel like they're giving me that same kind of I don't know edge that I used to have before. It's a really weird thing to describe. In some way. Am I making sense?

Speaker 1: 22:13

No, you're making sense. I think of an episode we did which was like, because it kind of I feel like it was the one we once did about fulfillment, where it was talking about how there was like so many levels and some of them was where it was like you, if you accidentally promote higher to a specific or like pivot to a different route which seems like it's good, it might not give you the same fulfillment, but the way I think of it is me when I worked in a cafe internet cafe and I was super enjoying that, and then I moved into a. Okay, I worked in Buckingham Palace and I didn't enjoy that as much and that's more prestige, right, when you talk about the two, no one really cares about the story of you working in an, in the cafe that gave you the fulfillment. But then you move into like your engineering career and I think of like certain roles I had there and I'm like I'd rather be at the cafe.

Speaker 2: 23:07

You know what I mean. I'll pick up what you just said, actually, because you're right. So Buckingham Palace probably had more prestige than the internet cafe and in some ways the current role that I have has got more prestige than the previous role that I have, and it still doesn't make me feel as good about myself because of that lack of achievement that I'm feeling. It's not giving me that like you know sense of fulfillment Like I don't feel good by the end of the week, the end of the month, etc. So it's probably like something quite similar along what you said.

Speaker 1: 23:36

No, I think you are making sense. It is a it, like I said, it's different bars for different people and different requirements. And if you're that's why I asked about comfort as well I know for my one about comfort is a big thing for me and not being comfortable. Because if I don't feel that achievement like yourself, if I don't feel like I've managed to grow, like I, this is it. And the worst thing is my manager doesn't listen to this. But, very honestly, like the best way to tell Mark is like they know your manager then. But yeah, the way the best way to tell if Mark's leaving is if he feels there's no way to grow like 100%. And it's not like I do it. What's the word on purpose? It's just that it's a tell story, like if I look at my trend, I'll be somewhere. They'll like put me to a level. They'll be like hey, all these girls. And then they and I both realize I know it, I already know it, I know too much. And the moment I'm like so what's next? And they're like Well, it's just more of the same, except for this area. I'm like Okay, goodbye. Like it just keeps. And it's happened too many times for me to pretend that it's not true or it's not the case, where it's like and the first time? Do you remember each time the reason you like pivoted, each time you've left a job or like moved in, shifted where you were in your career? I think that's actually more interesting to get left, yeah, but moved from, like, yeah, different roles.

Speaker 2: 25:09

So as a graduate engineer for for Rolls Royce, I remember I wasn't getting enough responsibility and I was given a path to follow. That was the standard path. I wasn't happy with it. I looked for a manager job as a production manager or something that would give me more responsibility and I've just told them goodbye, although I was living a fairly prestigious company. When I was in that job as a production manager, I realized that I kind of hit a ceiling in a way. Like you know, I got a hold of production. I understood, like you know, the people management aspect. I had probably the option of moving into an operations management role, but at that point in time the Amazon opportunity presented itself and I was like why not, in a way, because I can have a very, very similar path and I can be paid more. So I turn around, took on the opportunity and then from being sort of like production, ops, manager kind of roles, I moved into change management and that's because I wanted to follow that path of continuous improvement and that was always kind of like in my five to 10 years plan. So I took on that path and when I completed a fairly large project which was probably like the kind of highlight for my last 10 years as a professional. I realized that I had kind of hit the ceiling within the role that I was at and I wasn't going to have anywhere or anything as exciting after that unless I moved and worked directly for the team that works on those kind of projects, like the launch startup team that they're a part of Amazon with, where they open new FCs and it can be quite exciting. But I didn't fancy the traveling so I decided to almost go one step higher from what I was doing and go into Linsec, sigma and let's say that I'm an internal consultant in some ways now. So that's kind of like all the projects. It was always that either I wanted more responsibility or I wanted a level higher what I was doing towards that kind of path that will place me into being let's call it like this, continues to improve a manager slash internal consultant. I think that kind of summarizes it in a nutshell.

Speaker 1: 27:29

It sounds like you want to grow for each one, if that makes sense like each one, there was a growth that was required, which is I'm not gonna lie, it's different, but it makes sense. Actually it's not so different. I think we're alike in that way. When I think of my path, I never thought, like when I think back on the ways I've pivoted or shifted in my career, I never thought of it as I was searching for something to grow with. But there's like that same trend and if I try and think of the factor that pulled me along, I go all the way back to, like, my placement year where I got a taste of working and when I did that I moved between four, five, maybe six different, maybe four different departments. I was even in finance for a bit. I was like I was in the accounting team, I was in different teams and I was getting a taste for each one and that I think that had a big impact on how I like to work and why I fit into projects like activities where they lost a certain period of time and then I moved. So I did that and then I got the. They offered me a role afterwards and when they explained to me where the growth stopped I was not going to stay there. I like asked one question and they told me what the like salary of people who'd been there for years was and I was like I don't think this is for me. And then I managed to get a graduate role in oil and gas and again I'm moving around learning about different areas, getting a broader view so I can like select where I want to go, and that was much more engaging. So some things I'd find difficult, but I always knew there was a timeframe for how long it would be there, like, oh, this one sucks, this one's really fun. But I'm able to move between them and like grow in each case, struggle, strive, be comfortable, thrive but always know that it was to a timeframe, period of time. And then I get to the next. So the moment they put me in like a rigid role, I was done. I was like, oh, I don't really want to be in this one specifically forever. And then I'm looking at the growth and I'm like you go, this senior manager like that. I was like, yeah, and the funniest thing I always think I was like comfortably uncomfortable, because before COVID they were like you don't have to come into the office five days a week, you can only do three days and you get half day on a Friday and I was just like I'm going to leave. But also I was like really into like like this was probably the start of the needle movies, because this is when we started looking at the Herbie and the coaching. And so I got really into consulting and I was like I want to be a consultant, I want to go around and like improve companies. So it fit with where I wanted to grow. And then I get into that and it was on, stop, nonstop growth. It was insane. So many industries, amazing. And I got good at it and I got promoted. And I got good at it and I went up and then they were like ah, then you know, you'll make it to the end. I looked at what that meant and I was like but I could do this anyway, and I don't. And this is where I was like well, the comfort of being able to be good at it. But I was now uncomfortable with the fact that I never had my life as much I was on call. You remember this? I was never where I wanted to be. So it's like I'd managed to find the most uncomfortable version of being comfortable, like okay, now I have no home, I am a nomad. Everyone I know has met their partner whilst working and I am no exception Like it's because you all work and stuff, and so I managed. I was like I want to be set somewhere while I can still grow. So that's when I moved to where I am now and I'm still growing here and luckily, I think I'm aware that everyone's a person. So at some point your manager's changed and things will change. And even when I, since I've been here, my manager's changed and the one I have now is really keen to grow. Like help me grow, like make sure I'm always learning stuff and growing and that's really good. But I'm aware that life is timed and the moment I feel like, oh, I know this now, and it feels like the next step is the, like a senior version of the same, that's where I feel like I'll disconnect. If it feels like you're doing more broader, different things, then I think, okay, that's. And if it aligns with my interests, that's a key thing. If it aligns with my interests, then I'm there, you've got me. I'll make everyone grow together, but otherwise I'm just most likely to pull away. I guess I've found. But it's really a growth theme.

Speaker 2: 32:07

Do you know, as you were talking, I've also realized one thing. When I was speaking I almost made it sound like it was a very pretty like a port trajectory, and he actually wasn't at all, and I like to rectify that. And as I was thinking of that I was like, why did I make horizontal moves? And then I remembered bad managers. That makes sense. So, like along my journey, you know, I got into one role. Sometimes I've got a bad manager and then I would decide to do perhaps exactly the same role or something a little bit different, like in a different team or a different department, different building, and I have made a handful of those horizontal moves. But I guess the point I'm trying to make here is that the trajectory was definitely not just upwards. It's almost like a staircase. You go up and you go horizontally up and horizontally, horizontally, horizontally up and horizontally. So it's not as smooth sailing as a midi sound.

Speaker 1: 33:05

To be honest, I forget that because to go from engineering to consulting, I also had to horizontal and even to move. Like. Every time I've tried to shift industries, that horizontal has been like if I'm able to, I'll go up, and that's. That's a lie. Even when I shift industries I try and go upwards, but it's. It's true, that horizontal which I think in my head tells me where it's been like like that's the blocker. The moment you're willing to just leave and you know you're not going to go for the staircase, you're like just give me the landing. I think that's the difference.

Speaker 2: 33:41

So if you are in a similar position where I'm in the moment, I am going to introduce something that we talked about before, but with a little bit of a different stack. So the thing we're going to be talking about is something called the quit framework, which we covered in the past, I think, because it came up in Stephen Buckley's book I don't know if that's spoken from the wrong or something to do with Ali Abdullah, I can't remember.

Speaker 1: 34:02

No, Stephen Buckley, don't do this. Take it away from him. Yeah, Ali Abdullah, one of these guys, they're the same thing.

Speaker 2: 34:08

One of these guys, one of them too, but the framework is essentially a very simple diagram and the way that it goes. It starts off with a simple question of are you thinking about quitting? If the answer is yes, then you move on to the next point, which is are you quitting? Sorry, why are you thinking about quitting? Branch number one is just hard. Branch number two is sucks. Now let's go into branch number one. For us, it's just hard. Is the challenge worth the potential reward? If the answer is yes, then don't quit. If the answer is no, is quit. It's very straightforward. On the second branch, on the sucking branch, do you believe that you can make a no suck? If the answer is no, quit. If the answer is yes, is the effort it would take to make a no suck worth it? If the answer is no, quit. If the answer is yes, don't quit. Now, the only thing allowed onto this is that when you're thinking about quitting, also think about where you want to be, and this is something I've done in the past, where I may be in a situation that I'm not happy with. Maybe my manager isn't great, maybe the role I'm in, maybe the team I'm in is not great. However, there is something that I can take out from it which can help me into my next move or into two moves from now. So, for example, if in the next move that I want to make, I want to be a management consultant, as an example, then working as an internal consultant is something that will help me make sure that I am more likely to build the skills that I need, especially from a client perspective, especially from being able to develop the skills around communication, so on and so forth. And in a recent conversation with a friend, there is a and I'm actually opening up a WhatsApp message, as I was- talking now. In a recent conversation with a friend. There is something that he mentioned to me which was really interesting and it was actually not even mentioned to me. It was mentioned to my wife. So my friend and actually our friend and my wife were having a conversation about starting up a company and the challenges around it and the complexity around how do you get around when you don't really have work, or perhaps you haven't got enough orders coming in, so on and so forth. And there is this particular thing that he mentioned, which is a five step framework, or more like blankets that you can fall on, and he's got five of them, and the first blanket is that he wants to be a content creator. That's his number one goal. If that fails, then what he will do is make custom food for commission, because this is a carpenter. Now, if that fail, what he will do is that he will create batch production pieces, which is not a deal, but at the same time, he's going to allow him to be able to sell and still build skills in the field that he wants to work in, which is carpentry. If that fails as well, it will do basic carpentry work. So, for example, fixing doors, fixing windows, fixing cabinets, so on and so forth. And if that fails again and it really like push comes to shove, it will move on to level five, which is work for someone with working space like a shop or like another carpenter, or perhaps working as a part of a construction company to do carpentry work. All those five levels they kind of move away from the core goal of being a content creator. However, they all allow him to build the skills into carpentry which is required for him to be successful in the long term. And I guess this is one way of looking as well. As you go through the quick framework, think about it. If the work really sucks, what is it that you can take away from the job that you're doing or from the career that you have? That will really help you on to your next step. Is it that perhaps you need to build your communication skills and specifically your writing skills? And the job that you have at the moment currently is giving you that opportunity? And perhaps it's worthwhile writing all these levels of the potential goals or potential things that you could do, because it gives more meaning and that's probably what I want to be taking away. I'm going to try and identify what is it that I can really do that can help me in the medium to long term?

Speaker 1: 38:39

So this is the first time I'm hearing the five levels of like I don't know what to call it. He should write name it, because if I coin it, it's mine now.

Speaker 2: 38:49

Did it make sense, Because obviously it's the first time that I tell you. I just want to make sure that it makes sense as a starting point.

Speaker 1: 38:53

Yeah, but I had a question here because the thing was their core was to be a content creator. But if you hear the five levels, it sounds like their core is to be a content creator in the woodworking space. It is yes, it is Okay, cool, because. Then I'm like, because as I step away from it, I always think of that phrase. Like with each day we step one way, one step away from God. And it's like if your goal is to content create, every one of those steps in my head should let you reach the next step. Like if that fails, I hit this, but all it's doing is bolstering me for that step. You know what I mean. And so to hear you want to be a content creator but then he goes I'll work for someone in the woodworkers base, like okay, how does that? Like that's acceptance of you know the circumstance and if that's your real core, if that's what you really want to do, your steps should always lean into it. It's like hearing I want to be a actor, but if that fails, I'll be a bartender, and it's like, wait, no you'll be a.

Speaker 2: 39:56

I think the caveat is that if you want to be a content creator in the woodworking space, you obviously need orders, you know, to create the content that will go onto your social account. And if you don't have those orders in and you still have to pay the bills, you go to that one step behind. You will work for someone. That means that you can still do work, you can still record yourself doing work and you can still publish that work. But it's not going to be the orders that you're making. It's not going to be the stuff that you I guess you really want to do. It's going to be stuff that someone else does.

Speaker 1: 40:27

Yeah, I think there's. So that's the only thing I'd have to say with it where it's like, Because in my head, if I want to be a content creator, with each one of those steps I'd add and I'd record it. You know what I mean. I do this and I document. I do something because if the whole purpose is content creation, I do content creation that doesn't need money, like we're making content right now. You know what I mean, so that's why. But I think I understood the principle behind it, which is like it's the first time I'm hearing it and the principle makes total sense where you take five steps and, like I said, the add-on I'd make, the caveat at that, is but try and help those steps, like help you grow, because if you're at the fifth one, you're probably not as happy. Let's just be honest, you probably not. You might feel fulfilled, you might have made it, but you'll know that you're five steps down from where you want it to be. So if your step isn't helping you build, then it's kind of disheartening in my mind.

Speaker 2: 41:22

Yeah, that's correct, and perhaps you're in a space where you're applying for a job and you're getting rejections, and perhaps that's what defines your fifth stage, like you're still doing that work, you're probably getting the absolute minimum out of it. That will help you towards that end goal. But make sure that you write it down, because if you, I guess, if you quantify it, if you make it real, if you can see the little bit of work that you can take out of it, even if it's a stage four, stage three, stage two, stage five, whatever the level is, at least it gives you a little bit more meaning.

Speaker 1: 41:55

And I think it's down to your own comfort. Some people wouldn't be as happy with that. Like the five grains, or five levels might be very close, you know what I mean Like without as big a margin, and so I think it's down to making sure you know what comfort level you're at, and maybe yours doesn't seem too dissimilar. But it's like I want to create content, I want to just copyright, I want to, you know, make adverts and newspapers or whatever the hell it is, and it just keeps going. That's the same as copyright, it doesn't matter, but it just keeps it like to your comfort level. And I'm thinking, okay, if you wanted to stack this with the quit framework, which is knowing when you want to quit, one of them is about leaving something that's like because it might suck, because you don't want to do it, and the other one's about deciding. So I guess is it that that's when you know it's failed, when quit happens, like, can I make this not suck? No, I think I should check the next level.

Speaker 2: 42:51

What I would suggest is on either that's a suck or is it just hard on both branches. I would say, when you get to ask the question, if you answer is no, it does suck, or if the answer is no, there is no potential, potential way of making it worth it. Then almost go through those levels. Have a think about what those levels might be. So if you, if you're like in my shoes, for example, and let's say that you want to be a management consultant or whatever, the first step is okay, your end goal is to be a management consultant. Is what you're doing currently, directly contributing towards it? If the answer is no, then maybe you go to your second level. Is the skills that I'm learning, perhaps the analysis skills, perhaps the communication skills, perhaps the client engagement skills? Are those skills actually being engaged and helping you towards your end goal? Then your third level could be are the other skills that you're learning? Perhaps it could be that that level one, level two, are not fulfilled and then you're left with level three, which could be that maybe you are still getting exposure around working across industry. So perhaps you may be involved in the operations business, you could be involved in the marketing business, in the finance business and you're getting that sort of like cross exposure which is contributing to your end goal, but not strongly, then perhaps that is being satisfied and that could be something that that you can take into consideration. But it's about building those layers, and those layers is not something that perhaps I can define to you for you, or mark and define for you, but it is something that you can build based on your understanding of where you want to be and based on what you feel will be important, or perhaps based on what a contact in your industry tells you that is important in order to enter the industry that you want to enter.

Speaker 1: 44:39

Did that make sense? Yeah, that makes sense. I also think this if you're listening to this podcast, you're probably not a level five, which means which is a good thing, because it's something to aspire to get to. So now you can check in and say what level am I Like? Oh, if this fails, I know what I'd do, right. But if this goes well, or I know what I want to get to like everyone talks about if I had unlimited money, what I do and I think that's a point to check in on say, ok, I'm self aware of where I am and where I want to be, and these are the levels in between, and then target those. At least it gives you direction in where you're going is what I'm thinking as well.

Speaker 2: 45:22

So, as an example, if you wanted to stack the quit framework together with the five step layers that I was just talking about, the way that it would work or apply is essentially it would work on both sides. So it would work on the branch that talks about it being too hard and it would work on the branch where it says it sucks. But before you get to the point where you realize that either the work is too hard or where you realize that the work sucks, what you want to do is ask yourself those five additional questions that I was talking about. So let's say that I want to be an improvement consultant, and that was my end goal. That would be my first layer. Am I doing work as an improvement consultant? If the answer is no, then I can move on to the next layer. Does the work that I do contribute to my consulting skills? And if the answer is no, then you move on to the next layer, which is does the work that I do sharpen my tools as a consultant? So that could be communications, it could be report writing, presentation, talking to vice presidents, etc. And again, if the answer is no to that, then you move on to the next level, which is does the work that I do spans across the industry of interest. So perhaps if my keenness is to work in the operations world as an improvement consultant, that could be the industry. So that would be what I mean. And lastly, like the very last layer could be does the work that I do sharpen my analytical skills as a very, very basic foundation, because that I could practically do across many, many different roles. And if you add those five questions before you decide that it's time to quit, then perhaps that can give you a little bit more meaning and can allow you to think around. What can you do to make the absolute most out of the current position and not being left, like you are, in a very, very sucky and still role, because there is going to be a lot of time between the point that you decide that it's time to quit and the point where you're going to get a different job. And instead of just being negative and being stuck in a position where you're not happy with you, can try and make the most out of it by using those five layers and not only will help kind of readjust the way that you're thinking, but you actively will make the most out of the situation that you're in. I'm not sure if that makes sense, mark, so I'm just going to just clarity check with you and do that.

Speaker 1: 47:55

And I know you keep checking like am I making any sense?

Speaker 2: 47:57

Am I making sense? Am I crazy? Have I got chickens?

Speaker 1: 48:00

in the back of my garden. I wish I was there. Like nothing, no, no, no, none of what you've said today has made sense, but I'm here to support you. God damn it. You know, the funny thing is what you're saying does make sense, but it also reminds me of so. I was telling you earlier about a YouTuber and how they, like, fully pivoted and I'm like. They quit. They went through the frameworks because part of what they got to was where they were self self justifying and was like does it contribute? Like, can I use this as my growth? Like, is there skills I will gain from this and where will be the time where I pivot from this and along that journey? At some point for themselves, they figured out, with all of that being true, they did not want to persist in that route. You know what I mean, like because, like when you went through the five and you're like does this, but does it, but does it. And at some point you're going to ask yourself the question why am I asking so many questions? You know what I mean. You've ever been in a relationship you're like am I trying to force to stay here, or do I already know I should go? Like, if you have to ask, you might already know and that's something along the journey where you like, I think there's that difference between justifying staying when you know you should leave or just actually just knowing it's time to go because you want to, and that might also be true. It's not that I think that can help you in terms of selecting as well. Like, you went downwards, but I think, going upwards and you're looking at something and it might intrigue you and you're like why, what does it do? Am I wasting my time here? What can I get out of it? And taking it back to the stories, we were like why do we leave companies? Why did we join some? And it's for the reason of what we can get out of some of these things right, like, is this my analytical skills? Take it up a notch. Is this like in the field I want to be in? Okay, where can I go from here? So, for me, I managed to utilize that to extrapolate the skills I gained when it was engineering to get into consulting. Right, and then be like okay, this is the field Do I? And I didn't go to the level like, which would be four or five of like, what perks are there Like, oh, I don't have to pay for anything anymore. Life is expensive, so I don't even know what. That was probably level three, but it's like there's a bit of yeah, there's a lot of self awareness required.

Speaker 2: 50:26

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 50:26

And there's an even in Steve Bartlett's the quit framework. It's so simple, right? Does it suck? Yes. Can I make it not suck? No, Quit, Okay. The whole reason I'm doing this trail is because I need to find out why, and it's like it might feel like a burden, but a lot of hard decisions are super easy with hindsight. Like why did I stay so long? Oh, because it felt painful writing a letter and handing it over. Some people I know will stay another job to feel like they're doing something for like that company or that person. Like, oh, I can't betray the blah blah, blah, blah and it's hurting them, it's like sacrifice or like impact in them. And I think, yeah, you're allowed to be a little bit selfish, especially when it comes to your whole life, where you put your time.

Speaker 2: 51:14

And also there is absolutely nothing wrong with quitting. So go through that framework. I don't those layers, and hopefully it'll be your help, but please don't come back to us and tell us that you made the wrong choice. That's not you. And also, on the next episode we're going to talk about how Mark opened up a little chicken farm in his workplace.

Speaker 1: 51:37

Oh my God, if I was an Asian American, the way that might have been me. To close out, just one question. If you could do whatever you wanted, if you could literally do whatever you wanted, what would be the craziest thing you do in a workplace that comes to mind I would work from?

Speaker 2: 52:00

home.

Speaker 1: 52:06

This is how wild you're going to be. My host is people. With that, I give you the needle moves podcast. This has been your episode for today. When is it time to switch up a pivot? I've been one of your hosts, mark.

Speaker 2: 52:18

Jason's, and I've been your co-host for the rest of my life and, as always, till next time, adios.