Episode 100! Surviving Micromanagement

Ever felt like you're under constant scrutiny at work? Then you're no stranger to micromanagement and the stifling effects it can have on personal growth and job satisfaction. In this eye-opening episode, we bring you relatable stories from those who've lived the micromanagement nightmare, including a Reddit tale of an ingeniously stubborn employee who outlasted his overbearing superior. As a bonus, we'll share insights on combating micromanagement and advocating for your own professional growth.

Are you a fan of the office camaraderie, or do you relish the solitude of remote work? There's no universal "right" answer, so we take a deep dive into both sides, analyzing various studies to shed light on the pros and cons of each. We grapple with questions like: Are remote workers really more productive? Does office work foster better collaboration? You'll have plenty to ponder as we put remote work and office work on the scales of comparison.

As workplaces gear up for the post-pandemic return, could macro-management be the new micromanagement? We explore this possibility in our final chapter, equipping you with strategies to navigate this potential shift in organizational dynamics. Drawing from a Harvard Business Review article, we'll discuss the relevance of frequent updates, proactive problem-solving, and assertive feedback. Learn how a little bit of gratitude – the "tactical thank you" – can go a long way in fostering a positive work environment. Join us for this enlightening journey into the world of management and remember, the key might just be micro-employing!

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

Did you say he stopped coming to ship with you?

Speaker 2: 0:02

No, I meant to say he stopped coming to be with you.

Speaker 1: 0:05

He micromanaged. The fuck out of you is what it sounds like. I see you've decided not to be big birds, Decided you wanted the yellow, no black bird instead. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 0:28

How are you going to start an episode in? Just the insult to what I'm wearing? Look at yourself, man. You've been wearing the same hat for the last three podcasts.

Speaker 1: 0:34

Sure, I don't bring the hats into this. The hats have done nothing to you with your damn G-Star hat. Anyways, hello and welcome to our 100th episode of the Needle Movers podcast.

Speaker 2: 0:44

We don't usually jump into that Hello.

Speaker 1: 0:49

And also on the 11th of October, mark two years since we started this podcast. It's been a wild ride, but we're not even going to get into that. We're going to keep it pushing. This whole episode is all about micromanagement and we're going to follow the normal format. I'm going to read you a lovely Reddit post that me and Val will discuss, then we will go into actually work from home so remote working, but let's say different opinions on it and we'll see who's, if any, take the top, and then, finally, val will leave you with a poignant, I guess, knowledge stack that will come up with. So stick around to the end to find out what that is. But, diving right into it, I've got a Reddit story that is spot on with micromanagement and it's the title of the Fred is manager tries to micromanage me. I'm micro employee them, which is the first time I've ever heard of micro employee Is this like a Cambridge dictionary, kind of like macro employee definition. Cambridge dictionary, not Oxford. You went for Cambridge. You have very specific schools. You all did that. Most likely, let's see. Ok, so this is from two years ago. A few years back, I worked in finance for a big brand. My department was the weird one. Ok, we would do all sorts of different things, from customer complaints to cash collection and accounting Sounds like they ran a committee. Ok, my manager N plus two not sure what that means was an expert in her field and was very demanding. I was in charge of the biggest portfolio in the team and was quite busy every day. To top it off, every day you were assigned an inbox and we're supposed to keep it up to date. Twenty four hour reply time max. Is that doable, would you think there's?

Speaker 2: 2:29

a story.

Speaker 1: 2:31

Twenty four. Ok, so this is where the micromanagement start Manager would regularly go through the inboxes and ask people through instant messenger to deal with this or that email first, as it was quote, unquote, urgent. Still don't know how she would decide which emails were more important, because it was pretty much always the same queries. But, hey, ok, so that is micromanagement. To it, you're able to go into every employee's inbox and say hey, by the way, you need to close that one out, that's number one, this one's number two, that's OK.

Speaker 2: 3:03

I'll say if you're in the inbox, you must fucking do yourself.

Speaker 1: 3:10

To me that's so factual. But hey, I've never had someone come up and be like what's that fifth email about? Answer that first, let me see, that, let me see. And you had to drop anything and deal with her request immediately. One day, though, I get five different requests from her in the span of five minutes. No problem for me. I take the first one and work my way through them chronologically. Suddenly, an I am comes through. Did you take care of request number four? I reply that I'm not there yet and I'm still on number three. It was like 10 minutes after she sent those requests and, while easy, they still needed investigation. She tells me that I need to do number four ASAP, and she shouldn't even have to tell me.

Speaker 2: 3:51

Ok, fine, OK, be a mind reader. It wasn't a job description. I feel like that one triggered me because I had to God, I shouldn't be telling you.

Speaker 1: 4:02

Tell me was the one that, like, pulled me out of this whole thread of like, well, I hate that sentence. Ok, basically, I had to read her mind to know which one she wanted handled, handled first. Being no psychic, I decided to do the next best thing Ask her what she needed me to do first. I would check my inbox for the day, select the most sensitive emails and ask her which one she needed me to handle first. Did that for a week and got told to deal with the inboxes I would normally do oh wow, that's the end, or that's that's not even a problem. So they just asked them until they stopped getting asked what that was. Such an underwhelming ending, to be honest. But I get it. Wait a minute.

Speaker 2: 4:43

This is from Reddit, right Like so what's? The ask. What's the ask? Is he asking for advice? Is she asking for advice?

Speaker 1: 4:49

No, they're just telling me how. So the ending is supposed to be how they micro-employed them, and the crux of the story is they asked their manager what to do all the time until the manager stopped, you know, telling them what to do and said do it yourself. I guess it's giving advice.

Speaker 2: 5:05

OK, so like she basically the person wore down the manager, this is good, that's good, there's another.

Speaker 1: 5:11

So there's, like you know, the comments on the story and they basically say when they've done similar things. So yeah, when I was in the military, my sergeant decided out of nowhere he needed to know where myself and his other I don't know what that is MCPL were all at all, were at all times after he couldn't locate us. While we were getting coffee for the unit which we had specifically asked if he wanted anything, but I digress when we returned, he angrily informed us that he needed to know our exact location at all times. Being a good MCPL, I of course complied and began sending regular updates via text to the sergeant. I am at my desk. I am leaving my desk to use the bathroom on the second floor of the building. I am at the third stall of the bathroom on the second floor of the building. You get the idea. Funnily enough, he decided that if it was acceptable, if I just kept my phone on me in case he needed me after about three hours of updates. So I get what micro-employee means. Now. You overdose on the information you give your manager, to the point that they get sick of hearing from you. It's the most petty, passive, aggressive response you can give Is what I'm understanding it to be, but it seems to work in certain circumstances.

Speaker 2: 6:24

All right, gentlemen, if you're listening to this and you're planning to do this with your wife, do not do it, Do not do it. I repeat do not do it.

Speaker 1: 6:30

Oh, abandon abort mission, abandon ship, don't do it.

Speaker 2: 6:36

I can see the light bulb switch on for a bunch of men listening to this podcast and like, oh my God, I've got a solution. No, it's not a solution. Trust me.

Speaker 1: 6:44

No, no, no, no, fuck it, do it. Let's see how many of our listeners don't make it past this episode when it drops down. When I oh shit, you said what, dude, we ain't scared of no wife? God damn it. But there, I guess that's a micro-employing. I don't particularly use it. Have you ever utilized that where you've overtold a manager who asks too many questions?

Speaker 2: 7:09

To be honest, I never thought of it, doing it that way. I think I've had people do that to me almost in a petty way. Maybe I was a macro manager, I don't know. But I know that I've been on the receiving end of macro management, but I've never thought of doing that.

Speaker 1: 7:29

The level with the Sergeant just seems a bit extreme. Like I'm on the toilet. I am now squeezing, I'm still squeezing, nothing's coming out. I think I need a doctor. Whoa, there's no need to go to this leader. Nah, you asked for it. There's no toilet paper. I'm using my hands. I'm crying into the phone. That's the difference. Yeah, but I think no, I've not done that and I've done short interval control. You think I've reported a number of things, to be fair. To be fair, the closest I've gotten to doing this micro employee is as a consultant. I'd have to write these things called dial-os, which is day in the life of, and there would always be like managers who'd be like Give more details, you know, give more things. So I became very like specific in. I'd write every single thing, like every minute had an activity. If it was in activity, that was the activity. Person crossed their arms, took a deep inhale so that they could be. Because I was like my mindset was you can wipe away too much information, but you can't ask me to recall a whole day in the life of a person and say, hey, what happened at this time frame? So I was like, okay, you want the whole thing, you get the whole thing and, to be honest, I feel like I never got like bad comments on it. They were just like this is what we'd like to see. So, rather than a big gap of nothing, that's it always was just like blink twice Called his mother for what I didn't understand, but interesting what he was saying.

Speaker 2: 8:56

So sounds like you. You're micro employed, but I've been in the receiving and on micro management.

Speaker 1: 9:02

Micro management I'm sure I have. You know, my memory doesn't like stay with negative things. Um, I, I presume so. I expect. But a lot of what I do now and what I've done for while has been a lot of Isolated things. They give me scope and say go and do it so for not for a long while, maybe ten years ago or something, where they're like I need you in the office, I need to see what you're doing, but not for for ages. Have you been on the end of a micro management?

Speaker 2: 9:34

Oh yeah, I'm suffering from PTSD over here.

Speaker 1: 9:39

I Should run. You need a blanket.

Speaker 2: 9:43

You know what? I should run a blanket. I got my dog here so like if it gets too much, I'm gonna pet the dog. No, I have this. This was in the last, maybe, let me think maybe last five, six years, which seems a really long time ago, but in my mind it feels like almost it was yesterday and I had this. This person that happened to be my manager and it was very, very keen on on detail and very keen on getting things done. But get things done this way and it was. It was really weird, right, because I started reporting to this manager and I thought initially was being like really, let's say, like a great coach, because you will bring me into meetings and be like. You know, I was gonna have this meeting with the whistle and so I want to show you how the meeting is run. I'm gonna expect you to, you know, run these meetings going forward. I was like, great, yeah, let's do that. And then we go into the meetings the following week and it's still running a meeting and that going to the following week after that and I'm trying to run the meeting, but it tries to move it into his own agenda, into his own way of doing things and that's, you know, that's one sign you know it might be maybe I'm not doing it right. So you know, you start questioning yourself, start questioning your skills, figuring out whether you know You're actually doing the job correctly or not, and in post-so syndrome kind of start kicking in and you start questioning yourself and then you realize that this particular person started giving me things to do and Things to do and things to do. You know, this is a priority and this is a priority, and this is a priority, everything is a priority. But interestingly, that list of like four or five things he asked me to do, you also ask someone else to do. So not only am I running like a headless chicken trying to get those things done, those priorities, those priorities done that were all due yesterday, there is also not a headless chicken going around the office trying to get the same things done. And and then this person, like to just like the cherry on top of the cake, wasn't happy with the quality of the things that were all due yesterday and Proceeds to kind of like complain, you know, like, oh, I'm gonna do it myself, because you know it's not to arrest London and actually takes the thing away and that's it himself, because he's not done today way that he wants it done. Oh May, it was a hard year. It was a really hard year.

Speaker 1: 12:13

This sounds like so much trauma right the side you did at the end. It's like you just came back from that shift right now.

Speaker 2: 12:22

It's. It's difficult, right, because you know there is there is not getting away from second guessing what you're doing. It's almost like being constantly gaslit and Feeling as if you are not good enough for the job and you start wondering whether you're actually performing and but, but but. Then you, you know you get for the, for the most trivial things, you get compliment saying, oh yeah, that was done really well. I was like, yeah, but that's not part of my job. That's like you know, putting one plus one on the border right into next to it. It doesn't matter. So I'm getting compliments for things that are not part of my job and I feel like I'm getting my ass kicked for everything else because things are not done to the precision or not done to the accuracy of the detail of my Mr Macro manager and and and it's painful, right, because you start, as I said, you start questioning your belief, you start questioning, like, what you're doing and you end up not being happy where you are with you, which is not a great place to be at.

Speaker 1: 13:20

I can. When you say it feels like you're getting kicked in the ass, where it's, basically you don't get the autonomy to breathe and make mistakes or grow, especially if they come and do it in the end. Right, there's the. I always forget the four boxes Maybe it's the Boston Square, but it's like where you support delegate, yes, yeah, and I always forget the last one. But there's the four things that you can do and if they are always just Doing it for you, you're never gonna learn. You do. You might need support, you might need delegation. Just delegate work to me and I'll get it done. I understand the. There's like two points of ambiguity which, like I can understand it being beneficial where, if they don't give you feedback, to say, hey, this was good work, here's constructive criticism, here's how you can improve. But also, when it's more, not even the feedback, but just the hey, this is your scope, this is what you have to deliver and I'm gonna leave you to it and then we can see where you can grow from that. If they come in and be like this is all shit, I'll do myself what was the point, and if they give it to someone else, I don't feel trusted. Why am I here To be honest, I cut a paycheck and leave, but this is stupid, like it's not worth the time space or it's not really a benefit. So I can see how that's a frustrating environment. I keep trying to think of when I had it and I guess the way to kick a micro managers ass in my head it's from their manager giving them too much shit to do themselves. So if they, if they try and delegate it all the way, they'll fell. So then they just stay too busy to like get on me, but yeah, I can't, I can't think about it.

Speaker 2: 14:56

It's frustrating, right? Because I know now that from working in the industry for so many years, I know that people behave differently. I can't listen to music while I'm working, but you can listen to music while you're working right, I'm listening to music right now.

Speaker 1: 15:09

Maybe, who knows?

Speaker 2: 15:11

That's why you're not in your head a lot. It's not because of what I'm saying, but because you're listening to music Sake bit drool. But that takes me to the point that I'm not gonna be going up to a colleague or Report and tell them like hey, you can't listen to music while you was your working, or you can listen to a notebook Was working. People will have different ways of working and people will be more or less productive Depending on they were their way of working. Just because you're sitting down, concentrating or appearing to concentrate for eight hours a day, it doesn't mean that you are productive. Productive, it just means that you are Pretending to concentrate for eight hours. Yeah and this takes me to this. Many scenarios that I read on the net was I was doing a little bit of research, right? So you got three employees and Listen to this for a sec. So you've got Jenny During the day she responds to text messages, listens to audiobooks, but gets work done to high standards and on time. Then you've got employee number two, who is Owen. He works, takes short lunch breaks, gets the work done on time and to the same quality as Jenny and he engages in the office activities colleague chit chat, but everything is work related. He appears to be a productive member of society. That's called it. And then you've got Fraser, and Fraser works from home, only takes 50% of his time to get shit done for the company, but produces the highest level of work and the highest level of standard, always ahead of time. Now, if a micromanager was to come in this situation, they would look at Owen and think you're doing great because you're spending all of the time that you look at that. You've got allocated and you're spending it on work. My go up to Jenny and say I don't like the way that you're working. I don't like the fact that you're listening to audiobooks. I think you're getting distracted. I don't work that way. I don't think you should work that way. They go to Fraser and they probably tell Fraser hey, I don't want you to be at home anymore and I want you to come in the office. Irrespective of how much work is getting done at each of the three scenarios and irrespective on the productivity level, irrespective of how work has been turned in whether it's on time, beyond time, ahead of time, et cetera you can see how micromanagement really comes and can destroy the ways of working of people, even when they are productive.

Speaker 1: 17:41

So I think that's a nice intro to the work from Home Piece, but also it also, I guess, envelopes or frames how, regardless of which work scenario you're in, micromanagement can destroy it. Then take it as what was the last person's name? Again the one.

Speaker 2: 18:00

Fraser.

Speaker 1: 18:01

Fraser. Fraser is working for him, being super productive, but that productivity might be stifled if they're micromanager. Even if they allowed them to stay working remotely, kept checking in just a message. Hey, by the way, how far are you with this paper? Where are you now? Like if they spend 50% of their time getting things done? That micromanager is checking to make sure it is and then just overloading them so they don't even enjoy it? Right, because that's the likelihood of a micromanager. They just need to be engaged. They need to know what everyone's doing all of the time and butt their heads into, like intercept or interject into it, and I think that's the detriment of overly micromanaging. I don't think. Just to be clear, we're agreed that micromanagement is a negative term, right? I've not heard of it Like I need micromanagement in my life.

Speaker 2: 18:48

Maybe some people like the micromanagement. Maybe micromanagement could be good if you got an intern and they're learning the way to learn the rope. Maybe I don't know.

Speaker 1: 18:58

I hear what you're saying and I respect that you don't agree with it. I respect. Management is the whole purpose, the whole word is managed. If they're intern joins, they are managed. If they're micromanaged, to me that's the. There's no macro-managed. Maybe there is. That's a whole different episode. We ain't going to get into it right now, but for me it's the. To me it feels negative. Maybe it is, maybe there is positivity to it.

Speaker 2: 19:22

But staying on topic, I was going to throw you a tangent.

Speaker 1: 19:26

Okay, throw away. This is tangent. We saw 100%.

Speaker 2: 19:29

Do what you want, came on Came across this article just earlier today. It was an interview, or maybe a podcast, between Me and you.

Speaker 1: 19:39

It was our podcast. No, it wasn't Sorry.

Speaker 2: 19:42

Because the guest was the CEO Stripe and we've not had a CEO Stripe. Come on the whole podcast.

Speaker 1: 19:48

Unless we have amnesia. I like it. I think we did.

Speaker 2: 19:52

But what we're talking about is their unconventional method of allocating resources when it comes to thinking about projects and future planning. One of the things that we're talking about is that, instead of when I go to the product manager and they ask them how many engineers software engineers are you going to need next year to complete this project, the majority of people might turn around and say, okay, I need five to 10 people. Five to 10 people is not really a great number, because you're talking about a range between a million dollars worth of salaries to two million dollars worth of salary. Yes, they get paid a lot of money. Another way that they started asking the question is thinking in terms of kilograms of software engineers. Do you need 1,000 kilograms of software engineers or do you need 1,200 kilograms of software engineers? When you got a recipe and you're trying to get to the end goal of that recipe, you will have an exact amount. You don't have between 1,000, 2,000 kilograms of flour to make pizza. Yes, I've managed to throw in pizza in this particular.

Speaker 1: 21:00

It's always pizza with you. I can't believe it. Go on, because I have a lot to Go ahead. Please Get your point.

Speaker 2: 21:08

But they basically changed the unit and they tried to think in terms of these different units let's call it kilogram and I think in some ways it kind of makes sense, right? Because if you look at Jenny Owen and Fraser going back to my previous example, when someone comes up with a rule description and they start thinking about hiring people, what is the rule description based on and what is the amount of time allocated to a specific person? What is that thought on? Maybe they think about someone like Owen who takes the short breaks, does the work, engage for eight hours a day and engages in all the office politics and office check chance. Maybe that's what they take as a baseline. But actually, really, they perhaps should be looking at Fraser, because Fraser can get a job done in half of the time. It just happens to be at home. And maybe the reason why people are not as engaged or employees and not as fully, let's say, on board with the way that things are going for the projects or the work is because we're not actually thinking correctly when we are locating people to resources.

Speaker 1: 22:14

Okay, give me back to the keyless. Explain the keyless. So is it their weight, the weight, accumulative weight of the employees? Is it flour? Is this man eating his? You can't just say let's do the money, let's think about the keyless. Now, if you think about the leg bone, what the fuck? Please elaborate on the keyless.

Speaker 2: 22:34

They just think of it in a different measure. Instead of thinking I need five to 10 resources. They say, okay, let's think of this as if it was a keyless of people. Let's say you wouldn't go in it looking at a recipe that says, okay, you need between one and two kilos. They actually say, okay, be precise to get to the end goal. And if you look at the detail, how many kilos do you actually need? It's just a way to refine and cut the problem so that you can get the actual resources.

Speaker 1: 23:07

I understand. So you just amend or change the metric. So then, therefore, it's not as clear cut as I need five people, you might only need 4,200 kilos, or like 320 kilos or whatever it is. Let's call it cocaine, let's just say it's cocaine, but you only need a certain amount of that to get the job done, and that's very precise versus going for oh, I need this full amount of people. And the way it links back to Fraser in this example is the fact that that 0.5 is that kilo in terms of that metric, whereas in persons people really can like it's half a person, and they might make the mistake of trying to get, I don't know, a full person to do the role or something like that. Does that make sense?

Speaker 2: 23:51

It makes sense. And I guess what I'd like to lay to next, which I think is quite an interesting let's call it like intellectual conversation is is return to office and the mandate to get back to the office. Is it a new era of macro management? Is it a new way to micro manage influence?

Speaker 1: 24:10

I just want to click my knuckles because you know I already have the four on this. Go on, give me your thoughts. Okay, no, genuinely I think I like remote work, but this is one where I can see two sides to, and it's an interesting topic to me as someone who doesn't yet have to touch with return to work. So before I jump into what I think on it, I'm going to read a few facts, because I have seen conflicting reports on, you know, remote working versus work working from the office Whoa, give me, yeah, working from the office. So what has been found? I'm going to go in terms of productivity, work life balance, job satisfaction and collaboration. Firstly, in terms of productivity, some studies have found so this is me reading my previous research for the episode, in case you think I'm really smart.

Speaker 2: 25:04

But yes, it's not. Is it dumb, dumb?

Speaker 1: 25:08

I'm just going to let it slide. He doesn't deserve my, doesn't deserve it. Some studies have found that remote workers are more productive, While others have found that they are less productive. The results may vary depending on the type of work, the individual workers' preferences and the work environment. I have a colleague or ex colleague, a friend who was really keen on going back to the office during COVID. He was like I can't believe they're making me do this from home. And also one aspect of it is that a lot of people's home setups aren't set up to work remotely, so the presumption is everyone's able to have a desk with monitors or somewhere where they can work tangibly, Whereas when I've been in calls with colleagues, they're in the kitchen with their flatmates walking around hearing privy information, and it's not conducive for that productive work life.

Speaker 2: 25:59

That's where you live in London.

Speaker 1: 26:00

That's not London, that was in Thailand. Rugby, it was you. It was you in your kitchen. I mean, leave London. On this Work life balance number two, so many studies have found that remote workers have better work life balance than in office workers. This is because remote workers often have more flexibility in their schedules and can avoid the daily commute. So I'd say that's one one right they can. So here, with work life balance, you get options, though, to be fair, I would say it's more flexible hours, which is much I'd say is a more direct work life balance contributor. Having the option to be like I'm leaving for a doctor's appointment, no matter where you are, is way more beneficial personally to me than to have to be like being home versus being in the office. If I'm anywhere and I'm not having to, oh man, I have to book off time to go see my dentist. That's super convenient to me, but that's just my personal opinion. Okay, job satisfaction. Remote workers are generally more satisfied with their jobs than in office workers. This is likely due to increased flexibility and work life balance that enable remote work offers. Yeah, exactly so I'd expect. So I think, if you know that you have the option to remotely work even if you go into the office having that as just an option that you can or can't take beneficial right. And then, finally, collaboration. Can you guess which one's gonna lead on this one?

Speaker 2: 27:26

Probably the office environment.

Speaker 1: 27:28

Some studies have found that remote work can make it more difficult for employees to collaborate with each other. This is because remote workers may not be able to meet in person or communicate as easily as in office workers. However, other studies have found that remote work can just be just as effective for collaboration if the right tools and processes are in place. So there's detriments and benefits to both options. My personal opinion is it's not as clean, I want to say, when it comes to new people coming into work and to actually the other day, a great example. The other day I got sent an article by a joint friend of ours who did the Quantic MBA as well Brewer right and it was an Amazon article and it was like hey, amazon, I'm making it mandatory to work from the office and you can get fired, if you don't work from the office for three days a week. It seemed quite scare monger and I'm usually able to be like, oh, that's scary, I can't believe this is happening. And I was like, hey, this isn't directly pertaining to me, I think it's happening to some. However, from my understanding, just prior to COVID, the normal world consisted of you work from X location and if you don't come in, there was a risk of being fired. The post normal world is you work from this location three days a week and if you don't come in, there's a risk of firing. And I was like I feel like this makes it amped up to seem like there's a huge difference in what's happening. But it's just the same shit. New day it's just people have had the taste of hey, I don't have to come in at all, and so why should I have to come in at all? And that's where I'm like what is that really a big thing? Is that really the main thing? So, when I'm talking about university students coming into new work roles, we've had the engagement We've both worked in in person jobs with people where we've had the ability to build rapport like understand the intricacies and requirements of, like building in person relationships to make fruitful, like jobs and roles. And then back in the day people were like, if you knew someone online, you don't know them. And now we've like, made it our basis for work and life and so yeah it's. I think there is a difference and a benefit to meeting people in person. Person I can say I'm kind of biased because a lot of my roles require in person me. I get the what's that thing they gave out to people, the required worker, important worker thing. So, no matter if there's a pandemic essential worker, essential worker yeah, because I need to go travel, meet people and if I'm trying to build new clients, new stakeholders, the best beneficial way to do it is to meet in person. You can get more collaboration, you go in the office, you can talk with a lot of people. So that's where I'm like I get the benefit. On the downside, I think you could talk about the downsides.

Speaker 2: 30:21

But I think I think that's when it relates back to macro management right, because it's macro management when things are being forced to be done a certain way and they don't necessarily need to be forced to be done that certain way. There is probably a number of different roles across the world, across all the big tech companies, that can be done remotely or perhaps can be done in such a way that the person may only need to be turning up once or twice a week. And I think historically we've been able to demonstrate that to giving people the autonomy and freedom, they'll make the right choices. And that's been demonstrated especially with companies that have adopted the policy of giving unlimited holders the majority of companies that that have given unlimited holders. They've not seen a negative repercussion. As a matter of fact, people take as just as many holders as they did before, or even less.

Speaker 1: 31:20

Which companies have done that?

Speaker 2: 31:23

Top of my head I can't remember which companies, but there have been a few that I've done it.

Speaker 1: 31:28

I could understand why, though? Right, because you still need to get your shit done. So, and I always think of that Actually. Now quick question when you talk to people about the holidays they've taken, have many of them kept them until the end of the year or have they used?

Speaker 2: 31:43

I don't talk to many people anymore.

Speaker 1: 31:45

You're a very isolated person and you need to get out. Okay, I'll talk from my side. When I talk to a number of different people from different departments, they're all trying to take holiday now. It's kind of impacting the work I'm trying to do because a lot of people are going on holiday. Why have they only taken holiday now? Because they all didn't use it throughout the year. This is a limited amount, it's not unlimited. Limit them out and they just didn't have time. They were too busy working. It wasn't that they didn't even have days to take I you'd think it would be because they're hoarding yet so that they can take it. At this point in the year they're like no, I just didn't have time and now I've got all this holiday I have to use, I'm just getting rid of it. So if you get unlimited holiday and you already are working like that, I don't see why it would make a difference. It is scary because there is the option for people to just reload like fucking crazy and be like you know, I'm gonna work every other month and I can see how it wouldn't allow them to build or like promote, like you're gonna be stuck. If that your peer is able to work more consistently, get stuff done and have more Accolades behind their name, versus you, who has shown up every other month and try to pick up something that you have to keep handing back over. It's more inconvenient to yourself, so I can understand why that would be the case.

Speaker 2: 32:58

To be honest, but it's quite similar. If anything it's, it's probably like the next level up from remote working. Right, because as a remote worker, you still need to get shit done to a certain standard. And if you don't get that shit done, either because you're not going to the office or because you're not handing the face to face Meeting to build a relationship, or whatever that reason might be, it will still affect the performance of individuals. It's, in a way, it's just as if you were not showing up to office because you had unlimited holiday. If you don't get the shit done, you're not gonna get that's a promotional, you're not gonna get that one percent pay rise that you get every year, or whatever it might be. It's, it's quite. It's quite a similar situation in my opinion, but I think, the point being that If you treat adults like adults, they will tend to behave like adults. I think that that's the point that I keep reading in all of these studies, and I think giving autonomy to people allows them to Express that the sense of adulthood and then act like adults accordingly.

Speaker 1: 33:59

I Think there's more to come out about it. I hear what you're saying I naturally flinched about. Treat adults like adults and they'll behave like adults. I've seen a lot of things about adults acting like crazy people and no one inside them. To the word, karen exists because adults were left to Do their own shit and they decided to become this Caracature of a person, I guess. But I see what you're saying. I do think it is really individualistic and having this holistic approach from companies is Gonna prove its own demise. All benefit. We'll see that as it unravels, right, because right now we're having see, we're seeing a lot of them pushing People to go to the office and during COVID, like 2020 to 2022, I was convinced oh, maybe it's because you know they have to pace for the office space and so there's just a lot of empty seats. So they've got like 20 year leases on and it's just costing them arms and legs for a build and they're not using. And then, where they miss an hour collaboration, what is the? And? So that's why I'm curious on the reports, and I guess for each company They'll have specific ones. The nature of the job, the type of employee, all of these are factors and, yeah, treat them like adults, see what they do. But they had for two years. I wonder why. I don't know. All I know is I like remote work. Personally, I can play devil's advocate. Believe me, the fucking learn. Let me be where I need to be. I promise I'll see you once a year.

Speaker 2: 35:20

But I think, irrespective as to whether I may be in a situation where I have a Macro manager or in a situation where I've been, I am being macro managed back into the office, I think, whichever way, there is something that I've taken away from an article of the Harper Business Review which was called how to deal with a macro manager boss. This brings us on to the knowledge stack for the day, and Irrespective as to whether you have a macro manager or whether you are in a macro managing environment, being forced back into the office, which cannot see be seen as macro managing, there is a little bit that we can do to understand a Macro managers perspective, and I think the first point here is that a macro manager probably wants employees to be productive but also Does it in such a way that Is a little bit anxious, and what I mean with that is that there is a certain level of anxiety that comes, or lack of control that might come from from those managers or these managing environments where Micro management is coming into place, and that lack of control over exercibates the way that we we might deal with employees. So we might ask more questions, we might want them to do things a certain way, and I think having that knowledge in our mind around why macro managers behave the way that they do can help us be a little bit more empathetic but also deal with the situation in such a way that is more product productive. This brings me on to the next bit that that I want to talk about, which is an article that I read from the Harvard Business Review. This is a how to deal with a macro managing boss, and interesting that the HBR article proposes three strategy. The first one is Provide frequent updates to elevate your manager's anxiety, and I think this is really interesting and ties in with the point I was saying earlier. If the macro manager suffers from anxiety and that's the reason why they have macro managing providing that proactive updates Actually gets your manager off your back in the first place, which is great, because I don't want to be in that position. I don't want them that's a macro manager to be on my back all the time. The second point is anticipating your manager's needs to prevent excessive oversight. Again, this is all about proactiveness, instead of waiting for my boss to come around and ask me for updates, or waiting for my boss to come around and ask me for the status of my work. If I do that in a structured manner by my own accord, then I'm taking the situation in my own hands and I'm able to Not feel the pressure, not feel the weight or the breath of my shoulders on my neck, as they say all the time. And the last point that they have business review article makes is Giving feedback carefully. Now, I've tried to do this and this wasn't successful for me. But if there can be a mechanism whereby you can provide upward feedback in a safe way, where it doesn't make the conversation too confrontational, it can provide a platform for macro managers and their employees to Understand one another. But, as I've mentioned, try this before hasn't worked for me. So if you, if anyone wants to try, just just be a little bit careful.

Speaker 1: 38:39

For my own experience anyway, so is that like saying you know what thank you so much for when you shut the fuck up, because that was really great, like when you just stopped talking to me? It was amazing. But every time you speak, we could, we could mute that. Just just bring your viewer here and I, if you were here, I'd work so much better. Is that how not to get fired, or?

Speaker 2: 39:01

I mean, if, if I were you and if you were to have this conversation, if you had this problem, the way that I will probably phrase it is in the in in, in the terms of I work best under the circumstances and it will be able. It will be helpful to have this level of autonomy on this particular project, and this is what I meant and I think Providing that expectation, I think helps it. But also you're providing your perspective. So you're not telling someone you're being a dig for being a macro manager or me, but you're actually saying, hey, I feel as if I'm under pressure. This is like the way that I prefer to work. You're making a conversation about I, I, I. You're not Attacking someone else, so that's the way I would do it personally. It's kind of like relationships.

Speaker 1: 39:50

Also, I think the the approach of what I think in my head is tactical Thank yous. So where you're like, you specifically say thank you or show appreciation for acts that you do like, we'll like lean them into doing those acts more often. And Just to tie in with the first reddit story, the micro employee. You know when you're saying if they have anxiety, you tell them in advance. Maybe not to those levels or even to the levels I did in my dial-os, but it's just the level of um, I See, actually that's a. That's one thing I think some people like, regardless of micro managing, maybe that midweek check in, the end of week check in, that you know this is what I'm up to, because having no visual of what they're up to is a frustration. Typical managers, I'd expect, will check in at some touch points. Being proactive in that does benefit, regardless of micro management. In my mindset, where it's like here's what's happened, this is just to let you know and then that way they don't feel avoid. Now I think all managers can feel avoid of not knowing information for their what are they called? Employees, whatever.

Speaker 2: 40:55

But um, they're little minions.

Speaker 1: 40:58

Yeah, they're there. Yeah, they're minions, um, however, the micro ones. That gap in which you're able to give them information is so short that it's micro, right, so you have to get in before they get in and it might to. I can understand the feeling of it disrupting the work. Right, you're doing something, oh, but now, just for the sake of someone else, I have to disrupt it to give them this. So you have to find that balance in what you're, for fine move, doing alongside what they require to get them off your back. And if you do it preemptively enough, hopefully like the OPs post, it makes them just trust in you to do it. They'll be like just do what you're doing, because they can see that you're always checking in with it and they don't have to or they don't feel the need to right size you right?

Speaker 2: 41:43

Yeah, true, and if we take this as a fundamental knowledge, so this is all about it becoming a little bit more empathetic. You might be wondering what the fuck should I be empathetic when they're the macro manager? Well, they are your manager, so they're gonna make your life miserable, so you might as well do something about it. That's my way of thinking about this all. So if I can be more empathetic and if I can understand the situation a little bit better and I can be proactive, I then can couple that together with what Daniel Pink has actually found in his book Drive so Drive. The surprising truth about what motivates us and what he found in there is that there is three elements to motivation, so that's autonomy, mastery and purpose. On the point of autonomy, the author argues that freedom in tasks so what we do, when we do it, who we do it with and how we do it leads to greater satisfaction and higher productivity. And he suggests that businesses transition from a control and response model to an engaging power one, and this essentially gets you from the place of where you'll be macro managed to a place where you are given the ability to be autonomous in the way that you work, in your own schedule in your own way of working. So if you're able to be macro sorry if you're able to be proactive in your approach, as we mentioned on the first scale and if we are able to be empathetic and proactively see what's needed, then we're able to build that autonomy in the way that we work, which pays dividends, because now we're doing things on our own accord and we're taking back that control into our day-to-day, allowing us to feel better about what we do.

Speaker 1: 43:30

It is. It's like because I'm thinking it is like victim blaming, but it's not because it's more of a. If you get the, I guess, the stack from Drive, where you get the empathy and you get the mindset of how would I appease this and you can proactively say, hey, I'm gonna check in on this frequency, and you just do that as if it's part of the tasks to do before they get to you. If that does work cause the presumption is it does I don't know how bad your managers are. I can't speak for them, but for the ones where it does play a fact, that stack can help you in going forward and most likely, if fingers crossed, you'll reach a point where there's a manager who's like, hey, I don't need that, do your thing, cause I know in the ecosystem I've managed to work in they don't need the frequency and check-in. So it's only for that specific circumstance where it can potentially stretch the micro to macro and hopefully break you from it entirely.

Speaker 2: 44:25

And, by the way, everything I mentioned from the book Drive is actually being backed by studies where they found that business that offered more autonomy grew four times the rate of the control oriented firms, which again thinking more at a macro level. If we think back to the question that we posed earlier, the one that is a little bit more interesting to answer, if firms are really starting a new era of macro management by forcing employees back to the office, are we really saying that we are actually actively causing a slow rate of growth in companies because we are telling employees how to do the work, which is affecting their autonomy and, as a consequence, we don't end up working as proactively or as effectively as we used to? That's the question I guess I'm gonna leave us all with.

Speaker 1: 45:21

Just gonna leave that to the universe, but I think that ties it all very nicely together. There's a fair point. We don't have the answers. You're looking to them. Maybe we'll say it in a new episode, but for now we've made it. This is episode 100. How do you feel, val?

Speaker 2: 45:40

I don't know.

Speaker 1: 45:42

That was the most underwhelming I didn't expect to be asked how I feel.

Speaker 2: 45:47

Okay as a starting point. I'm hungry.

Speaker 1: 45:50

That's a feeling. That's a feeling, I think we should go to pizza. You can say in micro so much that you might need to microwave? Did you just say fucking pizza again? Are you measuring?

Speaker 2: 45:59

up people in pizza, that's enough. Do you know what, as we were talking and discussing this a little bit further, there was macro memories that came in my mind about things that I did with this macro manager that I had. One of them was hilarious. This guy basically had the habit of just popping his head over the little partition of the desk and say, hey, valerio, can you do this for me? And then he would pop his head again 50 minutes later and say that, hey, valerio, can you do this for me? And I got so fucking sick and tired of him doing that. Then I literally took all of my shit and I moved the desk all together when he was on holiday. And when he came back from holiday he was like, did you move because of me? And I was like, no, no, no, no, I just wanted to go for a walk with the other people.

Speaker 1: 46:50

Did you move because of me? I need somebody in front. Did he sit beside you? I wouldn't trust these people, oh god.

Speaker 2: 46:58

No, I literally sat like in the opposite corner from where he was and it helped a situation. He stopped coming to shit with me. Oh, never mind.

Speaker 1: 47:07

Did you say he stopped coming to shit with you?

Speaker 2: 47:09

No, I meant to say he stopped coming to shit.

Speaker 1: 47:12

He micro managed. The fuck out of you is what it sounds like. Okay.

Speaker 2: 47:23

That said, do what you want with the last bit of Adam Carrabata.

Speaker 1: 47:29

That brings us to the end of the episode. I do hope you've enjoyed. I've been your host, marc Jason's and my co-host.

Speaker 2: 47:36

Hello Tomasso, and, as always, till next time.

Speaker 1: 47:39

Adios.