The Consequences of Ignoring Red Flags in Relationships and Business

Have you ever found yourself justifying a concerning behavior in a partner or a business deal, only to later realize it was a massive red flag? That's exactly what we tackle in our latest episode, where we dissect the emotional biases that often blind us to warning signs in our relationships and business ventures. We share tales from high-profile figures like Elon Musk to the notorious collapse of WeWork, and even recount a personal mishap involving an electric car purchase, to illustrate how the sunk cost fallacy can lead us to make even more questionable decisions.

Then, we explore the silent alarms that we often ignore in our personal and professional lives. Through candid anecdotes, we discuss why individuals shy away from discussing red flags with those who could lend a fresh perspective. We emphasize the importance of breaking through denial and the stark contrast between opening up too late and the benefits of early intervention. It's a conversation that hits close to home, as we address the fears that keep us from confronting the potential loss of our emotional investments.

Rounding out the conversation, we confront the delicate art of handling feedback and the importance of market research. We reflect on our own experiences with feedback during our course creation process, unpacking the challenge of not taking criticism as a personal attack. Drawing parallels between personal growth and the malleable strategies of giants like Facebook and Twitter, we stress the significance of seeking external perspectives. This isn't just about business—it's about the adaptability needed in every facet of life, and why opening up to diverse viewpoints can steer us clear from the pitfalls that threaten our success.

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:10

so topic for today was red flags, thanks. Yes, we talk about red flags in relationships and we ignore them, but we do the same thing for businesses. But also, the interesting question is what about, like, all these people that have been told that you know this idea is not gonna work and it's it's not the right market, people are not ready for it. And then you have the people like elon musk. They kind of push through that barrier, they push through the red flags and they still make it. So how do you tell the difference between a red flag there should be a red flag and a red flag. That actually is just an obstacle to be overcome I think there's all.

Speaker 2: 0:53

There's the elon musk and there's also the we work and the um, what was that woman who started selling that miracle pill or something? Um, and there's basically these super, the ones that offer you the world, and if you've done any vinted gumtree, I don't know whatever, the us equivalent one is craigslist, sorry, or any of those cells, and you've seen an advert and it sounds too good to be true. Like hey, here's a playstation 5 for like 20 pounds. You're like probably not a playstation 5, it's probably a rock in a box.

Speaker 2: 1:25

And so those ones, I think they have what would be considered blaring red flags, but in a way world where we want or we've seen because of elon musk and mark zuckerberg, and like spotify's and all of these things that just blew up in a big way, you're like I hope this is true and people do the same thing with their companies. So because, because there's polarizing, different effects or different results, let's say, but you don't know which one you're on, but then it's kind of foreseeable, because the difference is the tracking and the things you're, the metrics you're measuring, and also the blaring problems, let's say that can stand out if you are paying attention to them. Like, hey, we don't have the people covering the finances, don't worry about it, our taxes are good. What do you want about it?

Speaker 1: 2:16

So I think let's take it back to basics, right? So let's start a little bit simpler. Red flags in relationship why do you think people ignore them.

Speaker 2: 2:26

Emotions that's the first thing that comes in emotions. And wish, no, wish, yeah, wish, like the same reason, I'll keep it in the relationships. I'd say there's the you give them a benefit at a doubt. Now there might be things to do with yourself, but it's definitely to do with, like, I am invested in said thing, either at sunk cost or whatever, and therefore things that are blaringly red suddenly feel a bit amber. You suddenly feel a bit oh, but you know they've changed. Oh, but that might not be the who they are now, like you told me that they kill people extreme example, right, they killed past tense, they don't do it anymore.

Speaker 2: 3:10

yeah, very extreme, but I mean in terms of like, whatever the red flag is like they are, they've cheated in their last 10 relationships, but not with me. He's like, and I think, yeah, people tend to like, lean towards the positive, so you wish for the best and you're like well, that that's because they weren't me. I'm not that relationship, I'm this different thing. And because there is hope, I think as well when it comes to relationships with all these things, of course, are applicable to companies but because you have hope, emotions invested, it's your own, it's very personal and you just dive deep in it can really impact the, let's say, the way you look at red flags and the colours start shifting. I don't know if they ever really become green, like in your heart of hearts. You're like that shade is very much, almost I don't know mulled wine.

Speaker 1: 4:03

It sounds like you're describing rose-tinted glasses. Yeah, exactly, I guess the rose-tinted glasses they make that red flag.

Speaker 2: 4:12

I kind of look like a grain collar, oh God yeah, I don't know what filters you got on, but and the glasses fit so comfy.

Speaker 1: 4:21

It sounds like you mentioned so benefits of doubt. I've been writing things down Emotions lean towards the positive and hope. That that's kind of like what I, what I heard you say, yeah, yeah, for sure, and it's interesting, right, because I I agree with that Like this is probably the things that overshadow potential red flags, and especially like the hope and the benefit of the doubt. We'll think, oh, this won't happen to me because X circumstance is different. Or we'll think, you know, they put on, they put in so much effort into this relationship. Surely things are different. And I think, just picking up on the, on the very last thing that you know they put on, they put in so much effort into this relationship, surely things are different.

Speaker 1: 5:06

And I think, just picking up on the very last thing that you said, there is also an element of when we commit to a decision and we commit on to doing something regardless of the facts coming our way, we almost look to stick to it again.

Speaker 1: 5:26

It's almost like we're doubling down on the bad choice. Yeah, so this is like an even simpler example right, you're looking to buy, you're looking to buy a car. Actually, this is my example looking to buy a car and, um, you go electric, which is a stupid mistake I made. Yeah, you go electric. And then you got people coming your way and they tell you you know, electric has got so many red flags, like the range varies a lot, this varies a lot. And then you almost like double down on your bad choice and you start saying you know what, actually I'm really happy with my electric car and I'm really happy about the choices I've made. It's costed me less. And you start like almost flushing out all the positive things but you forget about the fact that you've been broken down the road four times.

Speaker 2: 6:13

All those things are just part of the product.

Speaker 1: 6:15

That's all you committed to, and there is a science and there is experiments that talk about this. They talk about people being given a choice. You know it was a fairly simple choice by X, by Y, and studies show that once you commit to a decision, you're much, much more likely to be happy and almost justify the choice that you've made in the past. So changing job, perhaps, is one of them. Field is greener on the other side that you defend that choice about moving across, uh, breaking up with a person, getting in a relationship with a person, so on and so forth.

Speaker 1: 6:52

Giving back, you know, will you ask, whatever it might be, and um, and then there is like another field of study that uh talks about researching things. And again, very simple example you're choosing between buying a MacBook and a Windows PC. Yeah, and maybe you've got a choice of like three, four, five different models, and there is science that shows that the more you research things, the least happy you're going to be ending up with your decision, because not only you delay the buying process, but also when you get the thing that you think that you want, you know about everything else that you missed out on because of the amount of copious research that you've done in the past. That is true that is.

Speaker 2: 7:42

That's funny because when I'm likening it to relationships, I just think of Tinder, people who are just like oh man, all of these options and I've chosen you and you're the fucker Patrick. All the options in the goddamn world.

Speaker 1: 7:56

And it's interesting, right, because if you think about business owners, right, like, you've got different types of business owners, but you certainly have the people that perhaps are more instinctive they make a decision, they move on and they're happy with it, and then you've got the people that perhaps fall into paralysis. By analysis, they start looking at every different element of it, and in doing so, not only that the lane decision making processes or the lane moving forward putting out there whatever the case may be, but I think there is also an element of are they causing themselves more unhappiness through the process because they know that another decision or going through a different path may have been better for them? And just to wonder how this ties in with red flag spotting as well, right.

Speaker 2: 8:49

I think it's that happy medium. That is hard because it's a pendulum and you swing either too hard to one side or the other. So you either are indecisive or too decisive and you quick flash with it and again you just like OK, people double down on the decision they made, or the indecision makes them regret the decision, like in both cases. You swing either way. When you were discussing it, it gave me, it reminded me of, like, when I play games on my phone. There's this ad that always came up and it was like uh, two people with pickaxes, one is below, one is above, and it shows them digging right and one stops early and the one below always keeps digging and he finds gold just a bit further. Right, they're just just that little bit further and they would have found gold and the one above would have found a bigger pile of gold. No, sorry, the one below kept digging, found gold and it was a nice one exactly what you're talking about.

Speaker 2: 9:38

Yeah, exactly, I think everyone should have seen it, but they stopped and they had a bigger pile of gold, but they stopped from it. And that's the mentality that people have with relationships with businesses, where it's like, if I just keep going, if I just keep doing this, and they don't realize that, firstly, a pickaxe isn't the tool that they needed to get there anyway. Secondly, there's probably no gold there. You're digging in the wrong direction. It was over there, but that's not what the ad shows. It's to give you that lure of if you just keep going, if you just keep trying, and that's the mentality we bring. And that's where it comes to these red flags. It's where, um, okay, they are horrible to me. However, if I just keep working on it, if we just have this kid, if we just launch this business, I'm telling you people find any reason, but it's just like, yeah, if they just keep working on it, if it's the same with the companies, right, it's like imagine you're in a company with a horrible partner, you both can't work together, but you're like we just need to launch this. What the next like is it? And that's the funny thing, because I feel like all of this is like cereal for therapists you're just feeding they're about to get along. The things you'll put up with just so you can, um, like get to the stage that you think will make you happy.

Speaker 2: 10:47

But I think, along the journey then you there's the big red flags is that you probably aren't happy and people ignore that one over everything. Where it's like you get bursts of it, don't get it twisted people always get like sunshine, like oh, we're gonna make money from this, like, oh, this is a great idea. But you don't realize like, hey, I don't like how I feel most of this time. Hey, there might be a different route. But I think again it comes back to that sunk cost as well, where you put in so much energy. You're using that pickaxe the whole way that you're not going to look and say, even though it's grunt and dead and it's not as sharp as it used to be and it's not taking as much gravel, you're like you got me this far, I'm sure you'll get me the rest of the way it's like no pickaxe has done its job.

Speaker 1: 11:39

You can enjoy the time you spend with it, or please go buy yourself a goddamn shovel or something it reminds me of, uh, this gif I've seen of um uh, three cavemen two cavemen pushing a cart on the square wheels and the third one comes around and says, hey, would you like some round wheels? No, sorry, we haven't got time to uh to round wheels yeah.

Speaker 2: 11:54

I've seen that that's like consulting 101. You're for the solutions to your heart.

Speaker 1: 12:00

Just carrying on this. Then we know that there is red flags in the relationship. I think they're fairly similar to the red flags that we might see when running a business, and it's getting me to think. Right, if we are in a relationship and we want to spot a red flag, what's the best way of doing it? I would think we call our friend right.

Speaker 2: 12:23

That's exactly what I was going to say. It's always that additional opinion, but the question there, though, is why don't we call the friend, why don't we mention the red flags? Because the solution might sound super easy, but the fact of the is why don't we call the front, why don't we mention the red flags? Cause the solution might sound super easy, but the fact of the matter is, people tend not to, and we were like why do we allow for? Red flags is one thing, but also why don't we mention it? It's like you, you know there are red flags, cause these are the things you're not telling people, and people tend to hide it. It's like why don't?

Speaker 1: 12:58

I and same with the business, right where it's like, hey, how's it going?

Speaker 2: 13:00

oh, it's going well, what are the numbers doing? Well, we're working on them. Like, I went to a soiree, funnily enough, the other day, but then they one person was being asked it was a lot of filmmakers and then one was being asked about, um, their project they were working on, and when they were asked anything tangible, they just kept saying it's early days. Right, it's early days. How's the script coming along? It's early days. How do you have anyone on the team? It's early days. And I was like, oh, basically, it's no. The answer is nothing is happening. This is an idea, it's a great idea maybe, but you've not really done anything for it. And that's where I was like, of course, if, um, if that was the person who was supposed to pitch the thing, and then they're saying it's early days, that's a red flag. Like hey, you need to be like, give it some validity, give it a foundation. And maybe that's typical in that industry, but I find that people talk around things when there's red flags involved.

Speaker 1: 13:46

Right, Like hey, man, that used to be my answer for the podcast.

Speaker 2: 13:53

It's early days. It was early days for the last five, four years. It's always early, but it is true it's, it's um, I think it's that it's not the that line specifically, but people will talk around it, like if someone looks like they've been crying all the time and you're like, are you doing? They're like, oh, it's hay fever. You're like it's the middle of winter, the hay isn't out for that fever yet, but it's um. But you know they'll talk around it and they'll justify it in themselves, of course, because of all the reasons we gave as to why they have red flags but or why they accept red flags, but that's it.

Speaker 2: 14:26

Like, okay, what do you do? You talk to your therapist, you talk to someone, you get it out. You don't just keep it within the confined tunnel space, um, or, and you might get like so people get couples counselors or um mentors when it comes to businesses or whatever, someone who can advise you. But you might just not be wanting to hear that advice because, again, of all the reasons, you'd accept the red flag. And so it's just. How do you break that boundary and typically it's once. It's too late is when everyone lets the floodgates open, right once the breakups happen. It's like, by the way, they stab me in my sleep every night like what the fuck?

Speaker 2: 15:03

living with some serial killers, mate, yeah I keep going for the most extreme version, but it's like. But it's also like companies. You hear about them suddenly going bankrupt. You're like what you told me, everything was fine. It's like hey, whoa, those are our internal, private matters, don't worry about what's happening there. And that's another thing, by the way. When it comes to relationships, though, um, the you know the keeping it within the household. Like you keep your problems to yourselves because people the one thing I always hear is people won't understand. Like they don't love you as much as I love you, so they will just held it against you, so I can't ever tell them anything. It's like how bad are you being for whatever I've done to be held against to the fullest? Like they'll hate you forever. Well, I just said, maybe I can change my time. No, no, they'll hate you. We can't tell anybody this in this world. I think it's a it's big flags.

Speaker 1: 15:54

So I want to take you back to something you asked earlier, which I think is, like, probably the most valuable thing that's going to come up from this discussion today why don't we ask our friends to point out the red flags? And I think that's super important, right? Because I think that's very similar as to why we don't ask other people for their opinion on our business, yeah, or their opinion on a podcast, for that matter, or whatever it might be right. I think that that's that that's key, and there's some thoughts that come to my mind. Uh, so this is the thoughts that are jotted down as you were talking.

Speaker 1: 16:30

I think being scared is one of them. Being scared to hear what you don't want to hear. Yeah, because there is always going to be an element of the lost cost. No, what is it called the um? Sunk cost, sunk cost, fallacy? Yeah, put so much time and effort into it. What are you telling me? Why are you telling me that?

Speaker 1: 16:51

Right, the the other thing and I'm going to link it back to the four core things that you mentioned earlier I think one of them is the emotions. We are tied to an idea. We are tied to a concept, just like we're tied to a person in some way. There is so much that you've been through the development journey, you've been through the element of discovery, feeling that you know, this feeling of being an entrepreneur, feeling of being in a relationship, is great and we're scared again tying it back to scared.

Speaker 1: 17:25

Scared of being told that actually it's a terrible idea, or that there is too many barriers, or perhaps that the great idea that you were thinking of already exists. Yeah, picture that right. And the other one is hope. And I think we tie hope to the big idea that we have. And by tying hope we tie that into the future and we kind of like start future planning around what this could do for you or could do for us or whatever it might be, and not wanting that hope to be shattered. Those are the three thoughts that I had.

Speaker 2: 18:03

Those are all valid. I'd say 100%. And I'd add one thing, which is part of what you're saying because of the fear and everything, the big word that comes to my head is feedback. People don't necessarily, as I've noticed, like feedback, and especially when it's not framed in a way specific for them. So especially, and so with friends, even if they see red flags, they might not want to say because they're worried that they'll get retribution shown on them, and even if the person does come to light one day in the future, they've let friends go.

Speaker 2: 18:33

I know a number of friends who weirdly managed to stay in contact with me, but they'd get into some toxic relationships and I just noticed that their friend pool would decrease, like they stopped talking to people and then only afterwards would they say oh, they didn't want me talking to so-and-so people and they tried to do it with you. Actually, there was one friend who their girlfriend at the time tried to say that I hit on them and I had never. But luckily at that point I was in a very long relationship and I was like what the fuck are you on about? But they only told me this after the fact and it was basically this manipulation strategy to try and get him away from all his friends. So you witness it happening where it's like they're in this mindset and so the friends are scared to say something because the retribution goes on them. And then now they're the messenger who's been shot, but also the people you tell a friend hey, you said you saw someone who looked just like her kissing another guy. That's a huge red flag because it was her Right. And they're like I can't believe you'd say this, like you're just thinking so negatively. I need you to step back. Firstly, it couldn't have been her, because she'd never do that, and secondly, I can't believe you'd be the person to be on their side. Who the fuck are they? But? And same with companies. I think it's where it's um, you, once you're in it.

Speaker 2: 19:53

People don't like to hear the feedback which is their fears, like you said, that scariness of. Hey, you're not looking at this direction. I remember when we were doing charles young and we brought in the fourth person and we had to get feedback because that was our hole in gold. But it was showing holes where they're like have you considered this? And at some point they can say this here is just bullshit, and you have that whoa, because a lot of the way we would discuss charles young was the pitch more basically, we were justifying its existence, we were selling it at any point. So then, to open and allow someone in to what is potentially your baby, you're cradling this thing and then here hey, by the way, that's an ugly ass baby. That baby needs a makeover, like what are you on about? This is my, and I think that happens both in relationships and in businesses and in general.

Speaker 2: 20:41

People like I remember, even for this podcast, when we were doing courses and things where we had feedback and people aren't all trained in giving it.

Speaker 2: 20:49

So they can be blunt, they might mean the best, but they can just be cruel, they can, you know, in ways that just feel, and you have to dig through the dirt to find the gold which might still account. And I think a good example of this is early stage youtubers, where they have to, they'll get maybe 10 comments, but they want the interaction, and so, even if a lot of them are negative, one of them might just be like hey, your camera's set to x frames per second. You need to change that. And that's where they do these small tweaks, ignoring all of the all of the sewage that comes through to get the gold nuggets. But still you have to pay attention and, uh, people don't like to, because inviting that in, people would rather just turn the comments off. You don't want to see that, and that's the same with your relationship. That's the same with your company. You don't want to see people calling out the red flags.

Speaker 1: 21:34

Yeah, no, I think you're right with that, because I remember quite well I hope you don't mind me talking about this, but I think it was the time where we were putting the course together I think it must have been maybe about five months ago or so and we were going through the process of learning how to video, learning how to edit, learning how to shoot an ad, what makes a good ad, et cetera, et cetera. All very interesting stuff. But when it came to the point of shooting something, recording it and getting the feedback, the feedback was us, but the feedback was coming back in different ways. Right, there was some feedback that was constructive, some feedback that was not sure how to phrase it, certainly harsher, and it's really difficult not to take the harsh feedback and not looking at it as an attack to the character, or as an attack to the character or as an attack to the work that you're trying to do and that perhaps then you know you receive it once, maybe you receive it twice, or once one or two people.

Speaker 1: 22:36

That almost turns into this barrier of hey. Actually I don't want to go through that process of being hammered every time I ask for feedback. Maybe'm either just gonna stop altogether, or I'm just gonna stop asking for feedback from a varied group of people because I'm not receiving in the right way and I think that that's the uh, what's it called, that's the, that's the challenge or that's the potential harmful thing, because then you stop getting the varied perspective, because people perhaps don't know how to give feedback in a in a constructive way. The value must still be good of what's coming your way, but because it's coming away in a way that you don't accept it, then it becomes difficult to to receive it it makes me think of the energy required to digest feedback.

Speaker 2: 23:21

So if you are already having to deal with red flags or whatever when it comes to companies or relationships, whatever you have to expend energy to deal with that alone then you have to ask for feedback. So when people give it in um any type of way, it takes an additional amount of energy to then decipher through it, to be like is this even good? Because, yeah, when you're talking about five or six months ago, um, if someone just says this is shit, that's not constructive, that's just an opinion, that doesn't really help anything right, and it's like what you wanted out of it was why. So even when you're talking to friends, they might be unable to verbalize what they're thinking right, and that might just put you into more energy.

Speaker 2: 24:03

All you've now got is your head thinking why is it? They're saying it's a red flag. They've not explained anything. What's going on, you know, and some people really like to like, put the onus on you, so they'll be like that sounds wrong. I don't know why. That's up to you to figure out, and you're like that doesn't help me at all.

Speaker 2: 24:19

So now I have to decide if I'm going to protect myself or follow this thing and you don't just follow things blindly, so you have to, like, digest it. And again, there's always emotions and all these things invested, be it your company, be it your relationship, and that's where it's very tricky. So, yeah, and so people like to think they're protecting themselves. Like I say, they've already put in the sunk cost. Is their energy into this company, into this relationship, whatever it may be? Um, but the energy in that might be better served. Um, having to filter through bullshit or great critiques and actually putting it out there to allow to receive them is, like it just seems like high cost, low reward, especially when you already think you know you're going on the right path. So if you're like this, this company is this shit, and then someone comes and they tell you that it's terrible and I think this happens to comedians all the times, like legendary comedians will tell newer ones you're terrible at your job, you're never going to make it. But they do that as a rite of passage, because if you're really passionate about the field, that shouldn't stop, you should keep working on it. But you have to go through that. You have to build a callous or a mindset that just barriers it. But the problem is people do that for the wrong things as well, because there are some terrible comedians who heard that and were like I don't care. And so you see this and you keep going. Or same in relationships, same in terrible companies, where that mindset can be rewarding, but it can be rewarding for the right and wrong reasons and it's just navigating that.

Speaker 2: 25:47

And I think one thing in the books I've been reading of late where they're like you have to name your feelings, you have to name your label, your experiences. You can't just let them fester. So you might have a feeling, be it about your company or relationship, but you don't name it and therefore it can fester. You just feel uneasy, you don't know why, but you won't say oh, this is wrong, this feels wrong, I feel like something is off, my gut is telling me X. And then like, try and say because this is an experience, and then you take that experience to other people and say it.

Speaker 2: 26:21

And I know that also when you talk to people, no matter who you are in your company relationship, you'll give a view. You might try to give a holistic one, but you'll probably give a biased one, and if you're self-aware enough to know that, then you're also self-aware to be like maybe I'm wrong, and it's how you talk yourself out of it as well. It's a very tricky, but, yeah, it really makes me think back to like Charles Young and we had, I'm sure, a number of uh, red flags when it came to it, but we, yeah, we could talk ourselves out of anything because we had a team of the same people seeing the same flags and be like that one's brown, that one is purple, don't be talking about red and and I think there's a challenge right like, how do you spot the?

Speaker 1: 27:04

how do you spot the difference between a red flag and something that actually isn't a red flag and it's just somebody else's opinion? But I think the key problem for us when we're putting charles young together or trying to develop it, let's call it it, was that we weren't getting enough external opinions to be able to see whether there was red flags or not. We kept putting people onto our team, which is great, you know, went from two to three to four. But again, it kind of begs the question from a couple of episodes ago was it really four people? Was it quantity or was it four people of quality? That provided a different perspective.

Speaker 1: 27:41

And I think that's the key difference. And that's the reason why when you go for MBAs, you go to business class, you listen to YouTube lectures, whatever it might be. They always say to market research. Market research isn't just this tick in a box, but it's actually an opportunity to get feedback around what you're doing so that you can tell whether there is real red flags or not. And again, because we didn't do any of that and we kept bringing people on board, but I felt like we were doing it to get validation of what we were doing was actually good.

Speaker 2: 28:15

That's why we kept choosing the right people.

Speaker 1: 28:18

We kept choosing the same kind of people to come and join us because we kept getting that feedback. It was like oh yeah, yeah, it's good, it's good, it's a good idea, let's do this and that. And I think all we kept doing is really confirm a bias that we already had confirm a bias that we already had.

Speaker 2: 28:39

It's like I. To me, it really feels like the line between cells and research which you don't realize. You have to do both, and so that you end up going in with the sales pitch. And the thing that comes to my mind is when, um, uh, people introduce their new girlfriend, boyfriend, whatever. If they're going to show you a picture, they're going to scroll, they're going to find one that they like it doesn't show you their best image. Oh, this one I took randomly, oh, this one's not my favorite. Then they'll show the one that's perfect and they're like that's who they are, forget everything else.

Speaker 1: 29:03

That's there you got a picture of like her eating a burger, her picking a nose, and you're like finally like 20 pictures through listen.

Speaker 2: 29:10

But you know you have to scroll too far to try and exemplify it. And it's the same with your company, where it's like um one, it's a nerve wracking thing to say, hey, I'm starting this thing and it's like I'm sure it's a good idea, but it's really. People do their 30 second elevator pitch, they've researched that, but they don't go. Here's all my flaws, how do I fix this? And again, it's because again, you want the ones who have experience and then or like that mental mindset for it, which is tricky. So in relationships, they might only want to talk this to their therapist, so then it keeps it in this cage that no one else gets to know about and it just stays there. And even if you've mentioned red flags, you have some therapists might, unless it becomes really harmful, I doubt they're going to be like you should do 100. They're just like how do you feel about that? Why did you let them do that? Right? Um, so, but when it comes to like, that's why I'm like it's the difference between the research and the cells. And you realize you, you need to do both. You need to approach both like yes, you are trying to sell this thing. But you also need to approach both Like yes, you are trying to sell this thing, but you also need to say, hey, so this house is beautiful, I've just bought it, but there are cracks in the walls. The EPC rating is F, like it's not great. And then they're like, hey, that is a write-off house. Like, if you buy a car and it's crashed and then you're like, I can fix it, I can fix it. Like, that car's written off, man, you need a new car, just let it go and it's just um to tell people the car was in a crash previously. The car doesn't have a car lit converter, it's, it's a, it's a, it's in the state, and then that's where you get the feedback. And the same can go with the company where it's like, because, um, one thing you'll need from and be it relationships, be it um companies, there's always pivot, there's always like, the ability to pivot there's. But there's too many companies where they've started on a full idea focused in and I like to use x now, previously twitter, as the best example, or something, or even instagram, which was a photo, one where they all just pivoted into something and that was the where the stream was. And so out of like failure comes big successes.

Speaker 2: 31:17

There's a number of opportunities or a number of examples of this. Like facebook was originally just for campuses, universities, and then it blew up to what it is and now it's you mean the facebook, the faith, but it is true, it's like, but that's so scary, like, let's be honest, it's so scary to be. Like I have an idea and this idea follows said path. So for your life it might be. I have an idea on this relationship and it follows a path to marriage and children and stuff.

Speaker 2: 31:43

And then you're like, oh, that was a step, that was just a step, that was not the life, and so to have to like it's weird. It's like you're imagine standing on a step and thinking there's so many stairs in front of you, but instead you realize that you have to slide down to another staircase instead. And that's what happens with companies, that's what happens with anything, and it's just frightening. Of course, that fear is still there, but it doesn't mean it's so, let's say, negative. It doesn't mean that there's no opportunities for that next staircase to be better than this one, but it's just, uh, I've put so much energy, I've come all this way, uh, as if the journey is finally over, but it's not really, not necessarily anyway as a starting point.

Speaker 1: 32:27

I honestly thought you were describing snakes and ladders. For a second.

Speaker 2: 32:29

It is literally like snakes and ladders. I think life and relationships are exactly like snakes and ladders. And think life and relationships are exactly like snakes and, if I remember correctly, you beat me at the darts version because of what I told you about snakes and ladders, and I'll never forgive you for that.

Speaker 1: 32:43

So a little bit of an insight. Uh, mark and I were in a stack do in what last six months? Yeah, it was in bristol as well, right, and um, if, if you know where there is this, uh, this place that is called Black Club? Yeah, that's the one. Essentially, it's a dart room, but it's a techie dart room where you throw darts, but you don't throw darts just for the sake of it. There is a game behind it, and one of them is a blend of darts together with snakes and leather. And Mark is talking to me about strategy, talking to me about what he he's doing and he's ahead of me at this point right, like he's feeling really good about himself. Um, and this guy thinks he's gonna win. And you know, like I was standing here, I'm not following any strategies and, as a matter of fact I had hit a snake and gone all the way to the back.

Speaker 1: 33:35

Next thing, you know, you get three lucky throws and I'm overtaking mark and winning the game, and this guy's like strategy.

Speaker 2: 33:45

I swear you stole my strategy. I swear to god. At the end yours was like the whole game. This man did not do any strategy and I was like, nah, you gotta this, and it worked perfectly. And then I think another thing is faltering under pressure, because I saw him coming and I had to get one perfect shot, which was, I think, up until that point, so easy. But the moment I saw him coming and I was like, oh no, I messed it up and this man came from behind and destroyed the whole game. It was, um, yeah, it was.

Speaker 1: 34:19

I still recoil at night when I think about it but yeah, snakes and Ladders is all about learning about relationships, it looks like every board game is about business and relationships, if you try hard enough.

Speaker 1: 34:33

It's not just monopoly, there's something you said earlier which I really liked. So you mentioned that if you break hard enough, it's not just monopoly there is. There's something you said earlier which, uh, which I really liked. So you mentioned that if you break off relationship, you go to a therapist. That is, you know, if you want to work on yourself and you actually want to get that perspective and figure out how you can improve for the future.

Speaker 1: 34:49

And what happens when we are in a business and struggling with a business, I feel like the last thing that we do is seek out that external perspective and seek out that equivalent of a therapist that can give us that perspective and can perhaps put us on the right path. And I find that really interesting because I think there is also a very, very small proportion of people that end up going to a therapist after they break off the relationship or when they're having relationship problems. It's certainly not the 100% book. I should look into this. I feel like it's more like of our 10, 15 to do, and I wonder what percentages of businesses they go to a business equivalent of a therapist and do that sort of like self-growth improvement.

Speaker 2: 35:34

I also wonder, because the thing is, what you're mentioning there? It's, it's typically.

Speaker 2: 35:39

what's it called post, like it's reactive, it happens after the, rather than sometimes it's proactive Sometimes, yeah, but it tends to be, I'd say I'd lean towards like proactive means you're trying to salvage it while it's here, but it was, also, I'd say, something flares, and then you go seek it. Right, it's like which is funny because we treat it like an injury right, uh, you get injured and then you start getting strain or whatever, but to bolster it, so you don't get injured, like that part it's usually even if it's during the relationship, it's to like heal something that's already hurt, and so you see cracks and then you go for it. But the whole premise of coaching and pts and stuff like that is so that you don't get injured. You do the stretches, you do all the things so you avoid it. So, even in your company afterwards some, I'm sure, when some companies close down, um, they might, it might be so impactful they go to therapy. Right, you've had a business partner, you had a whole idea, and one thing I've learned is, um, regardless of what it is, uh, when you have to let something big that's been major to your life go, it's a form of grieving. No matter what it is company, relationship, pet, uh, friendship, whatever it might be it's a form of grieving, uh. So then it's. It's the fact that it tends to happen, I'd say, after the scar is the damage is done. I'm doing physio now because I twisted the money and if there was, if it was injured in another way in fact, no, what I should have done was lessons on how to fall correctly. So I don't twist money. That's the proactive approach. Right, and I'm snowboarding, but I is it. I think that's the key part.

Speaker 2: 37:18

And when you're talking about this, um, the percentages, I looked it up and it's usually early in it. So all this one's showing is early in a relationship, whether, like, 36 percent start uh discussing therapy within the first three years and then 34 percent start uh couples therapy before getting married. So it's these are proactive approaches that can help them. But there's such a it's like less than one third of people are doing it just in advance of things to try and make sure they're in strength. And again, this doesn't show the reasons why, but my this is my personal assumption it's probably because they've seen something and said we need to make sure we're stronger than this rather than just being like are we good? Yeah, we're good, let's just do more things to make sure we stay good. And it's hard to do that right when you feel like you're doing well.

Speaker 1: 38:03

God, that's hilarious. I'm actually thinking about it. So you mentioned like a third of people, right, and the reason why I'm laughing is because there was four of us.

Speaker 2: 38:21

And none of us was like we need help. We had four people to say yes to yeah, yeah, yeah, this is great, we need help. We know we need someone else, just like us. We can keep it going, but it is um, yeah, I think it's the case, and I think it's also say we see cracks. It's when it starts to crumble is when we start to do things like.

Speaker 2: 38:33

I remember I mentioned in a previous episode where we're talking. I'm talking about how I asked people in the team what do you want out of this? So it's that way we can get the quality. But that was only after I saw the negative effects at no point in the start, and this is why it's in hindsight. What would you do different? And it's the proactive things I do to avoid having to wait until something goes awry, to avoid having to see a red flag pop up and be like maybe I should do something about that like. And it's not, don't get it twisted.

Speaker 2: 38:58

I think, um, for any business or for any relationship, there's like there's still a high likelihood things will come up as surprises over time and then it's then you will have to respond. Try not to react, but respond to them as it happens. But that difference between react and respond is, um, I think, a thought out process, and that's where we're talking about, okay, research, okay, due diligence, or asking friends and stuff. That's where you get to make a response. But reaction is when you like, oh, I've been slighted, this feedback was terrible, fuck that person. Oh, my company's not making money but no one understands what it does, so it's everyone else's fault.

Speaker 2: 39:35

It's like, branch it out. You're one brain and you might have a great one, you might be a genius. But also there's the value in opinions, the value in learning. It's the value in lessons, podcasts, books, youtube, whatever you need and the value in getting a mentor, a coach or someone who can give you additional insights. Like, most people travel in teams. Most successful people travel in teams, even if they're behind the scenes. It's not just one person. Like, every artist has a manager, and that's that's what most artists said, say, and that's for a reason so we'll leave you with this for today.

Speaker 1: 40:12

I think next week it'd be interesting to look at pivoting, specifically because we talked about mentioned this fourth person coming on board. But let's give a little bit of a background around why this person came on board, what the hope was, what the reality was and, uh, also the pivot that we decided to make in, uh, in practically in a company that hadn't really gone to market at that point. So what did we base our pivot on?

Speaker 2: 40:38

I like that because there was a transformation that was made by bringing this person on and getting their opinions, but we'll talk about that in the next episode.

Speaker 1: 40:45

Yeah, as always, I've been one of your hosts today, valerio Tommaso, joined by my co-host Yep, I'm Mark Jasons, and, as always, till next time.