Transforming Children's Education through Media: Insights from Sara DeWitt of PBS KIDS

As Senior Vice President and General Manager, PBS KIDS at PBS, Sara DeWitt is responsible for the strategic direction of a dynamic media service that supports the entire ecosystem in which children learn, including parents, teachers and the community.

Ms. DeWitt leads a cross-disciplinary team charged with content production, digital development, multi-platform asset distribution, educational product creation and marketing and communications for PBS KIDS, the #1 children's educational media brand.

DeWitt previously served as Vice President of PBS KIDS Digital, leading innovative strategies that built educational experiences for kids across media platforms. Having spent over 20 years in public media, she has played an integral role in the digital transformation of PBS KIDS. DeWitt has overseen the pbskids.org website, PBS KIDS streaming video services, and the PBS KIDS portfolio of educational apps for children and caregivers. 

Under her leadership, PBS KIDS has produced award-winning games and apps, AR experiences, podcasts and second screen technologies; developed a learning analytics platform to better understand children's learning gains through gameplay; and established itself as a gold standard in children’s digital privacy and security.

DeWitt is a regular speaker on the subjects of digital privacy, games and learning, and has authored academic papers and editorials on children’s media and its educational impact. She gave a widely shared TED Talk debunking myths about screen time, and has presented at high-profile conferences such as SXSW, Games for Change, CES, the Grace Hopper Celebration and the Atlantic Education Summit. Through speaking engagements and panels, she has lent her voice to important conversations about career and family, and inspiring young girls to aim for careers in the sciences. In 2014, she was named one of the top 42 Women Leading in Education by the USC Rossier School of Education, and she also was recognized with Cynopsis Media’s Top Women in Digital Award in 2016 and 2017. Most recently, DeWitt was honored with the 2020 Hedy Lamarr Award for Innovation in Entertainment Technology.

Prior to joining PBS, DeWitt worked as a preschool teacher and as a field researcher studying media habits of children in rural areas. DeWitt holds an MA and a BA in English from Stanford University, as well as a certificate from the university’s Children Society and Public Policy Curriculum.

This season of Edtech Insiders is once again brought to you by Tuck Advisors, the M&A firm for Education Entrepreneurs.  Founded by serial entrepreneurs with over 25 years of experience founding, investing in, and selling companies, Tuck believes you deserve M&A advisors who work just as hard as you do.

Transcript

Alexander Sarlin: 0:26

Welcome to Season Eight of Edtech Insiders where we speak to educators, founders, investors, thought leaders and the industry experts who are shaping the global education technology industry. Every week, we bring you the week in edtech. important updates from the EdTech field, including news about core technologies and issues we know will influence the sector like artificial intelligence, extended reality, education, politics and more. We also conduct in depth interviews with a wide variety of EdTech thought leaders, and bring you insights and conversations from edtech conferences all around the world. Remember to subscribe, follow and tell your ed tech friends about the podcast and to check out the Edtech Insiders substack newsletter. Thanks for being part of the Edtech Insiders community enjoy the show.

Ben Kornell: 1:18

Hello, Edtech Insiders listeners. I am so excited to bring you our interview with Sara DeWitt from PBS Kids today. As senior vice president and general manager of PBS Kids. Sara is responsible for the strategic direction of a dynamic media service that supports the entire ecosystem in which children learn, including parents, teachers, and the community. The wit leads a cross disciplinary team charged with content production, digital development, multi-platform asset distribution, educational product creation and marketing for PBS Kids, the number one children's educational media brand, she does it all. The wit previously served as vice president of PBS Kids digital, and having spent over 20 years in public media, she has played an integral role in the digital transformation of PBS Kids. She's overseen the PBS kids.org website, streaming video services and their portfolio of educational apps for children and caregivers. And under her leadership, PBS Kids has produced award winning games and apps, augmented reality experiences, podcasts and second screen technologies developed a learning analytics platform to better understand children's learning gains through gameplay and established PBS Kids as the gold standard in children's digital privacy and security. We're super excited to have Sara here today. And here we go to the interview. Hello, everyone. It is another episode of edtech insiders. And this one has been a long time coming. I am so excited to have Sara DeWitt, senior vice president and general manager of PBS Kids at PBS joining us for the pod. Welcome, Sara.

Sara DeWitt: 3:03

Thank you, Ben. I'm very excited to be joining you.

Ben Kornell: 3:06

So let's jump right in. I'd love to just hear a little bit about your journey at PBS Kids. What has changed since 1999. And what has remained the same?

Sara DeWitt: 3:16

Nothing has changed at all. Oh, my goodness, what hasn't changed? Right? So I think about when I started at PBS in 1999, we were just really beginning to come up with a strategy for the PBS Kids website, it had launched a year or so before I was the second employee to come in to work on it. And specifically I was hired because Mr. Rogers, Fred Rogers himself really wanted to bring his neighborhood of make believe into the interactive space. He was definitely an advocate for looking at new technologies and looking for the opportunities there. And he went to PBS and said, I think it's really important that we build these kinds of new media experiences for children. So I was hired to help bring his website on board. And so if I think about just how much things have changed over that time, at that point, we weren't really sure if kids were going to use this whole internet thing it was was very, very new. And obviously kids started using it very rapidly, and in lots of different innovative ways that were different from the ways that the grownups were using it. The technologies have changed so much I was here, when we first started our gaming initiative, which was not long after that launch of that website, probably in like 2000 2001. And then convincing producers that they could teach through games, the way that they could teach through television, and that you could use some of the same technologies that we were seeing on the web that were really effective for marketing. You could use those for helping kids learn words, or learn math problems, or learn how someone in a different culture would interact with you. So it was just a really exciting time and really innovative time. And things have continued to be like that. Those are the things that are the same. The kids continue to surprise us with the way that they use technology with the ways that they expect kind of innovation and interaction and things have stayed the same and that producers still come to us with some of the most common creative and innovative ideas for how we might use technology to help kids learn and help them navigate this space. What has changed dramatically are the types of technology we're using. So, you know, HTML to Shockwave Flash, we have this beautiful flash years where people are animating in Flash and making games and flash, and you could use all the same files, that's gone.

Ben Kornell: 5:44

Any of our tech listeners are actually having very nice flashbacks right now.

Sara DeWitt: 5:49

Right. And I think about some of those big dramatic moments like when the touchscreen came out. And you know, when the touchscreen came out, you started to see a shift in how kids were using keyboard and mouse, like, we spent so much time trying to navigate around this incredibly clunky technology for kids to access our content. And then when the iPad came out, you know, the switch flipped. And suddenly, kids didn't even know what a mouse was anymore, and it didn't matter. And so we are using completely different technologies that were so much more transparent, letting kids get right into the experience, I never thought we would see anything shift back. But I have to say, the fall of 2020, when all of those first graders were issued laptops, suddenly, we were in an experience where kids needed to learn how to scroll again, I needed to figure out how to navigate a touchpad or a mouse. So again, like a big change that then changed again. So and streaming video would be another thing that has happened during this time. You think, you know, when we launched that website, there was no idea that you would ever watch the show on the computer. And now, like, you know, kids expect to watch the show on any device that they access PBS Kids. So I mean, I could go on and on. But I those are some of the things that just like so many things have shifted since 99. Yeah, yeah,

Ben Kornell: 7:05

it's so interesting, because I think the themes of creating greater access, greater engagement, that is feels like a real through line and just think about, you know, Mr. Rogers wanting to take things online, you know, it was one directional through the TV at an appointed time. And now you've really evolved things, as the leader of the digital transformation of PBS gets to be, you know, multi directional, interactive, dynamic 24/7. And, you know, on any device, so it's really, that's an incredible shift over the last 25 years. As you look back thinking about some of the products and some of the releases that you've had, what are some of the biggest milestones that you're most proud of?

Sara DeWitt: 7:52

Oh, certainly, the launch of the streaming video player is a big one. You know, we did some experimentation, we got a small grant to launch some of our shows for older kids. And we saw pretty good traction, like we saw kids were watching, we're getting about 5 million streams a month. And that felt like pretty cool. But we couldn't imagine that preschoolers, were going to want to do this. But we started getting emails from parents saying, Hey, I can't find Curious George, you know, things like that. And so we decided to expand on the playa and add preschool shows, we predicted that we would get five or 6 million streams a month. And in that first month, we got 65 million streams. And it was just one of those moments of like, Whoa, this is a place where this is something that kids expect, this is something they want to happen. So that was we launched that preschool player in 2009, I think we had launched the player for older kids a year and a half before, something like that. But we also I think we were one of the first organizations to launch full length episodes, without any ads, and without any kind of subscription. And so it really kind of, you know, presented this idea for PBS of this is yet another place where we can, you know, provide access to everyone and do it in a way that's free. Another big milestone for me is certainly the work we've done about how kids can learn from games. And so some of that research came out like in 2016, and 2017, the realization that kids can actually come away with measurable learning games, gains by playing a game, if it is built on a specific curriculum, kids can learn from it and to have that happen in an informal environment and something that wasn't created for school. But kids playing it at home was just a really another really exciting moment for us. Because we've known for years that kids could learn from what they watched on television, and being able to extend that into the interactive space and be able to prove that was just a really exciting moment.

Ben Kornell: 10:22

Yeah, I think that question has come up before is PBS Kids Ed Tech really? Or is it kids media, or where does the education piece fit into it? And I think, you know, correct me if I'm wrong, but the answer is kind of both like media can be educational, enriching, and it can be fun and entertaining. At the same time. It's a false dichotomy. Would you say? Right.

Sara DeWitt: 10:47

I absolutely say that's true people regularly will say to us, like, oh, that, you know, like, we're covering the broccoli and chocolate. And I'm like, actually, it really, the learning can just be really fun. Learning can be like a bunch of sweet grapes, like, you know, like kids can really, like, know that they're learning and enjoy the learning and have fun at the same time play any Wild Kratts game. And you those kids know that they're learning, they also are like running as fast as a cheetah. That's super fun, you know. So I really feel like it really can all go together. And it can be used in all kinds of different environments. It's really about like, what can we do with this media? That can be a positive influence in kids lives? What is something that can help them get more passion for learning, want them to like explore the world around them, and to also see people who look like them reflected. That's really what our mission is to think about how can we use media to do those things in the world?

Ben Kornell: 11:46

Yeah, totally. We're a wildcraft family at our household, we, we actually get a lot of our PBS Kids through an Amazon streaming, you know, an app within our Amazon experience. So, so many different ways in which you're reaching kids and families. You mentioned this kind of evolution of platforms over the last 25 years, we're now in the middle of a revolution in kids media, we have the convergence of streaming, plus short form video like Tik Tok and YouTube. And now AI, how are you navigating all of this? And what do you see as the key opportunities and challenges?

Sara DeWitt: 12:22

Well, for us, I mean, if we go back to even that very first Mr. Rogers story, it's about looking at the new media opportunity and thinking about how can this be used in a positive way for kids. And so short form was easy for us. In fact, we've been doing short form for a long time, if you're familiar with the show word girl that actually started as shorts kind of as a test, like, can you teach vocabulary through short video pieces. And it was so successful that we made it into a 30 minute series. But short form is a place where we feel like you can tackle different curriculum areas that maybe don't lend themselves to longer storytelling, you also can do a really catchy music video. So shorts is something that we, you know, immediately embraced. Gaming also is something that we feel like is critical. For us podcasts. We're another space, where audio storytelling is something that is absolutely a learning opportunity. We realized in research that a lot of lower income kids didn't know what a podcast was. And so we've been launching our podcasts on our streaming video player to really great numbers. So I think just realizing that there's so many different ways kids can learn. Ai, I think is a really exciting space. So we've been doing some research with two different universities, we're working with UC Irvine, and University of Michigan on a project funded by the National Science Foundation, to build on the research, that we have known for years that when a child engages in a piece of media, when they watch a show or play a game, if they have a conversation with a parent or grown up about that media, the learning gains are greater. And we know that then that research has led to shows like Daniel Tiger's Neighborhood are super why that break the fourth wall where the character stops, and says something to the kid at home. And if you've had a preschooler at home, you know that they actually respond to the television, they answer that question. So the AI question that we're bringing into effect is, what if that character can actually have a two way conversation with that child during the episode? So what we are engaging in the research around now is episodes of Eleanor wonders y, which is focused on natural science for preschoolers and Lila in the loop, which is computational thinking and critical thinking for kids, four to seven, those two shows are in this research trial. And we're taking episodes and writing in working with the series writers writing in additional animated pieces where that character stops, and actually speaks to the child at home. And then we've got, you know, a speaker, you can do this through a laptop where the kid can actually answer and the character can respond. The ways that we are doing this is not generative, what we're doing is the AI is really parsing the child's responses and helping quickly identify what would be the best answer for the character to make based on what the child says and then all of the answers are written by the scriptwriter. So I feel like at this point, what we're doing is taking like the best of human creativity and marrying it with this AI potential to be able to quickly create a conversation that actually is realistic while also being real. really true to the curriculum and really true to the tone of the show. So I'll just give like a quick example. Eleanor has an episode about snakes molting. And they're trying to understand, like, what happened to the skin? What happened here? And so she stops and says, Do you want like a snake? Do humans want like a snake? And then the child can say, you know, no, we don't like I've never seen my skin come out, or you know, or can talk about, like how the skin gets too tight. Do you know there are all kinds of things that a way that the kid can respond to that. And then Eleanor can engage in a little bit of back and forth about that concept. So

Ben Kornell: 16:25

many of our younger selves, were talking to the TV with no response. And now the TV will talk back. And obviously, it's not the TV anymore. It's all all through different channels. But it's a layer of interactivity, what I find really interesting is also you keep coming back to these themes of storytelling, connecting with learning. And when a learner can be part of the story, how that really increases their level of engagement and unlocks curiosity. And, like as a takeaway for all of edtech, you know, the more you can integrate that learning and interactivity with a narrative, the more it captures the learner sense of journey and exploration and so on.

Sara DeWitt: 17:09

Yeah. And I think also, that ability to be an active participant to actually voice the concept out loud, you know, is something that I think is, gives the kids a moment of real agency in the show as well. They're not just taking it all in there, as you're saying they're interacting with the story. But they're also they're getting to, like, share their own idea about it. And that's so empowering for a kid to be able to have this kind of conversation. I'm excited, too, about how the questions that the characters are asking in this trial, are modeling for parents, the kinds of questions that they can ask their kids. You know, I've been through so many focus groups and research studies with parents who get quickly nervous about the curriculum, being too complicated for them to be able to engage in with their kids. Yeah. And when you put this kind of focus group into place, and the parents sees the episode, and they see like, oh, the whole conversation is why is the ketchup coming out that bottle so slowly, it's too thick? What could you do to make it thinner? The parent is like, Oh, wait, I got this, like, this is a science conversation I could have with my kid at the dinner table. And I think that just begins to then do what I think, a promise of edtech which is, which is it's not just for the kid, it's also for the kids learning ecosystem. It's also an ability for the kid to take that to their parents and their parents to engage with them and to continue to drive that learning at home.

Ben Kornell: 18:43

Yeah, I'm actually mentioned for the educators too, by the way, congratulations, just saw the Learn platforms, list of top 40 education tools and apps used in schools across America and, and PBS Kids right up there, you know, alongside like Google Classroom, and YouTube and other staples of learning in school. So congrats on that.

Sara DeWitt: 19:06

Thank you. I love the outpouring of support we get from teachers. We're huge fans of teachers, and love that so much of our content can be used in those environments.

Ben Kornell: 19:17

So we've talked a little bit about your journey over the past 25 years and kind of where things are today, I'd love to talk a little bit about where things go from here. And PBS is in a really unique position, one, you know, partially supported by public funds, has a broad mission impact. And whatever you do at PBS has a ripple effect in that, you know, many of the things we just talked about other media companies, take their cue from you, and then start launching those new products and features. Given where you are with this incredible reach and engagement today. Where do you see PBS Kids going from here? Well,

Sara DeWitt: 19:55

I think we continue to think about where we can raise the bar representation as one, really making sure that kids see themselves reflected in the content we're creating. And so our next big launch coming up this November is a show called Carl, the collector and the lead characters are on the autism spectrum. So we're doing a lot of research with kids who are on the spectrum and neurotypical kids, about how kids can engage with one another when they approach things differently and think about things differently and don't read social cues in the same way. If you think about it makes for really great storytelling, but it also is about this group of kids who are all really good friends, despite the fact that they approach things really different. Me. And I'm really excited to see how something like this will be connecting with the autism community, but also helping more kids understand how they can interact with kids, you know how we can all be friends with one another. So those kinds of things, I think, are really exciting. So that's one thing. The other thing is just continuing to look at new technologies. You know, I mentioned this AI work that we're doing with these universities, we're thinking about what's what are the next things we want to research in this way? We know from those study trials, that kids who engage in those conversations are coming away with a better understanding of the concepts. And so what comes next? Do we launch this to the public in some way? How do we begin to approach it and other curriculum areas, and what's the right way to deploy that to more kids. So I feel like this is not an area where you can ever get bored, there's always, always something new that we can be trying out, always something new that we can be exploring, and there are always more stories to tell, and more kids from different backgrounds who are gonna get to see themselves. So it's, it's exciting.

Ben Kornell: 21:57

I feel like we need you to be doing the same kind of work for the adults, because boy, working with people across differences, that's a big theme for our society today. So great to hear that that's integral to your storytelling and engagement. You know, let's take off your PBS Kids hat for a moment. And just as somebody who's been so deep in the kids media landscape, as you look out more broadly, the stats and the figures that we're seeing around the mental health crisis, around kids addiction to screen time, and you know, some of the effects of social media or Tik Tok and YouTube, etc. It's a really concerning time for parents, educators and get to like, what gives you the most optimism as you look at the kids media landscape today? And what gives you the most concern, as you look at the digital world that our children are inheriting? Well, one

Sara DeWitt: 22:58

of the things that gives me optimism is, honestly this. The fact that kids well being is being discussed so openly right now, mental health, being such an open conversation, that is something that I think needs to happen and conversations that we need to be having with kids. And I think about the ways that some PBS Kids characters have been able to play into that Daniel Tiger talking about how to calm yourself down when you're angry, you know, things like that, how do we use media to help kids with those experiences, I think, is is really good. I'm also really pleased by how much more research is going into the impacts of media on kids. It's something that has been woefully under researched for so many years, as someone who's looked for research funding, I can tell you like, there's just not been enough focus on it. So I think this is a good thing that that these conversations are happening, and that parents are getting into that conversation with teachers and with physicians about like, what, what can work? Well, I'm also really excited about, you know, I mentioned our pipeline, things that are happening, I'm excited about some of the creators that are coming to the forefront and so many new approaches to media. What gives me concern, I think, is really, there's so many changes in the industry, in the media industry. So tough stepping away from ad tech, the streaming industry has really started to reduce the amount of kids content that they're investing in. And that gives me some concern, I think we aren't seeing as much new IP and content coming forward. And we've had a few years of really exciting things happening. And so I'm, I'm a little worried that that isn't happening more broadly, outside of the non commercial space that I'm in, and the deregulated platforms, content being created just to keep kids clicking, and keep them focused in as opposed to really thinking about their well being and thinking about what's best for kids. And it's happening in places where there isn't kind of that oversight, and that the kinds of things that put public media into place. Like understanding this is an important big tool, we need to have a non commercial entity set aside to be really looking at what's the positive force that's not happening in all these places. So those are the things that give me concern, but it's also the thing that makes me so glad that a place like PBS exists, that we have this mission to be looking at content differently looking at the technologies in a way that can be positive for kids. And to think about to your point of when we do things at PBS than it gets copied. That is something that we want to have Then we want to be really helping the industry move forward in a positive way for kids. So I guess that's also a point of optimism that we have a pipeline that I think is going to show people some really exciting things, and continue to help families see that there's, there's stuff out there that can be really a positive influence in their kids lives.

Ben Kornell: 26:08

All of that you say, really resonates with me. And, you know, I think what has been successful over the last 25 years for PBS Kids has been your social entrepreneurial mindset where you've adapted and changed and essentially gone to where the kids are, and leverage the technologies that are most interactive. And so it's going to take that kind of entrepreneurial thinking and kind of social capital business models to ensure that there's high quality learning media out there. And going forward. What an incredible conversation. It's really an honor Sarah, to have you here. Again, it's Sarah DeWitt, senior vice president and general manager of PBS Kids, Sarah, if people want to find out more about what you're working on, specifically, some of this innovative work with AI, or they just want to sit down with their kids and watch some great programming and interact, what's the best place for them to go to

Sara DeWitt: 27:06

certainly PBS kids.org. Or you can download the free PBS Kids Video or the free PBS Kids Games app. If you follow PBS Kids on social, that's where we talk about a lot of this stuff that's happening in the research as well. So

Ben Kornell: 27:19

wonderful. And I encourage everybody to also check out Sara's TED talk about screen time. It's a really great TED talk, and so great to have you on the show. And we're excited to have you back in a year or two with the next revolution of kids media coming from PBS Kids. Thanks so much, sir. Thank

Sara DeWitt: 27:38

you, Ben. Bye bye. you, Ben. Bye bye.

Alexander Sarlin: 27:39

Thanks for listening to this episode of edtech insiders. If you liked the podcast, remember to rate it and share it with others in the tech community. For those who want even more Edtech Insider subscribe to the free Edtech Insiders newsletter on substack.