Scaling a Business One Shirt at a Time with Jimmy Sansone of The Normal Brand

Creating a business from scrap requires you to accept the risks that come with entrepreneurship, overcome ever-changing challenges and above all else nurture the passion that drove you into the business in the first place. 

In this episode of But Who’s Counting?, host Dave Hartley is joined by Jimmy Sansone, Brother and Co-Owner of The Normal Brand, a St. Louis-based clothing startup success story. Dave and Jimmy discuss how they grew The Normal Brand from their parents’ basement to eight stores across five states with ups and downs along the way. The conversation dives into:

·      Overcoming sudden adversity and leading your team to the other side intact

·      Putting family first in the family business and why Jimmy’s most important title is “Brother”

·      Managing supply chain disruptions and keeping shipments on schedule

·      How to build a business that scales even once it leaves your home state

“Action is the best response [to an unexpected disaster]. We couldn’t control everything, the one thing we could control was our reaction to it. Action is the best antidote to anything and so getting to action right away instead of sitting and stewing about it is something that my mom, my dad, my grandparents always encouraged.” -Jimmy Sansone

Resources to Count On

Want more insight into Dave and Jimmy’s conversation? Check out these resources to learn more:

·      Check out The Normal Brand’s lineup of elevated clothing that fits your normal

·      Connect with Jimmy on LinkedIn

·      Follow The Normal Brand on Instagram

Make sure to never miss an episode by subscribing on Spotify, Pandora or Apple Podcasts and let us know what you think by rating and reviewing. Keep up with more Anders insights by visiting our website and following us on social media:
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Transcript

Narrator: 0:00

You're focused on making important decisions to take your company to the next level. But who's counting? We are Counting on trends and insight to move your business forward operationally and strategically, focused on helping executives achieve their highest potential. But who's counting is a podcast shedding light on and breaking down critical issues and opportunities for businesses Brought to you by Anders, cpas and advisors.

Dave Hartley: 0:28

On this episode of but who's Counting. I'm thrilled to sit down with Jimmy Sansone, brother and co-owner of the Normal Brand, a St Louis based apparel brand that offers casual wearer and accessories you can wear from the city to the country. Jimmy describes the inspiration behind the founding of the Normal Brand, how the company has grown stronger by learning from its mistakes and overcoming disasters, as well as the important role thoughtful disagreement has on his team. Welcome back to another episode of the but who's Counting podcast. I'm your host, Dave Hartley. Today we've got a conversation I've been looking forward to for a while. So today we're visiting with Jimmy Sansone from the Normal Brand. So, Jimmy, welcome to the show.

Jimmy Sansone: 1:07

Thank you for having me.

Dave Hartley: 1:08

So, jimmy, talk about your title. I love your title because I think it speaks so much about the business. So what is your current title right now?

Jimmy Sansone: 1:15

In my title is Brother. I run the business with two of my brothers, Conrad and Land. It's a family business and it's a foundation of not only ownership but also how to make sure we try to run the business in a family atmosphere, and so it seemed like the most appropriate title.

Dave Hartley: 1:32

Yeah, I love it. You're not CEO, you're not president, you're, I think, brother and co-owner, which I think is fantastic. So the folks that don't know, if they've never experienced any of your clothing, I guess describe and like when you set out to do this, which I think was 2015, like what was your goal, what was your mission? And I guess, has that mission changed over the course of the last eight years as the business has been growing? Not really, it hasn't changed much.

Jimmy Sansone: 1:56

It started as a personal problem. Really, that problem was I wanted a normal shirt, and so what that meant for me was something that was, most importantly, comfortable, durable, so just high quality, you could stand the test of time and versatile. So I grew up in St Louis, in the Midwest. I was working downtown in the city, but in 20 minutes you could be in a field without a building in your line of sight. So I really wanted what I was calling normal shirts, which is something I could wear from the city to the country. I couldn't find any what I thought was for a reasonable price or really the aesthetic that I wanted or the quality, so decided to start making them, and I think that those core qualities of our product are very much still what we look at with our eight stores and counting and online and wholesale business.

Dave Hartley: 2:49

Yeah, so you have. You've just actually launched a couple of new stores just in the last six months or so. Is that correct?

Jimmy Sansone: 2:56

That's right. Yeah, we opened our first store in August of 2019. And then, with that, was in St Louis, just figured I'd work the kinks out in our own backyard.

Dave Hartley: 3:06

The first four years had been strictly direct to consumer right and wholesale.

Jimmy Sansone: 3:10

And wholesale Yep, so selling through other retailers around the country and which has always been a huge part of our business, and being attached to the other small businesses around the country. We were able to learn a lot and it's been a very meaningful and we've got phenomenal relationships and that's still a very, very important part of our business. Then we opened our first own store in August of 19, with plans to open another one in 2020. And, of course, the world changed, so during COVID, we paused opening that store and then got back to it in 2021. Now today we have eight of our own stores, with nine, 10 and 11 will be coming this year.

Dave Hartley: 3:49

So 2023, I think, has been a year of economic uncertainty in terms of are we having a recession, are we not? I think the opinions seem to vary on a daily basis, but we've certainly had, without a doubt, rising interest rates. How do you make decisions about taking that risk and opening a new store opening multiple new stores, with all this uncertainty and certainly given all the supply chain issues that have existed over the last couple of years? So talk to us about your thought process and how do you decide to do that.

Jimmy Sansone: 4:21

Yeah, it's tough. I even feel myself being drawn into the news cycles and the constant barrage of information of this is going to happen the world's ending. This is bad. This is bad, and whether it's Twitter or the news or podcasts, etc. We definitely get kind of signals just flashing all the time. I think for us being able to trust in the people that we work with starts with my brothers and just being able to trust people's judgment, and then the phenomenal team that we've been able to build here, and believing in what we're doing, knowing that we can't control everything. We can only control what we can control and then we can control how we react to other things that happen to us, but believing in our process, believing in our product and I'm glad that we have continued to invest throughout the uncertainty because our customers still reacting to it we're growing and it's proven over the last 12 months to be the right decision.

Dave Hartley: 5:19

So described Pure Meso. For people that aren't familiar with the normal brand, yeah, so at the beginning we had four shirts.

Jimmy Sansone: 5:27

Three of them were terrible and one of them was great, thank God, and that was our Pure Meso Henley. And that's the first normal shirt that we ever made. So it's a cotton poly stretch blend with a silicon finisher and a garment wash. It's just a very, very soft, ribbed cotton, durable fabric. And we've taken that Pure Meso and we've made it in different weights. So we've got a more base layer kind of fall weight that's our 240 GSM. We've got a heavier weight, which is our 330 GSM. We also have a spring weight which is made out of a jersey. Maybe I'm getting too into the technicalities of things, but we love Pure Meso and we make it across both genders, male and female, and across a ton of different silhouettes, and it's an important part of our business and it's got a special place in our hearts because it was the first normal shirt.

Dave Hartley: 6:20

Got it. Yeah, it is good stuff and I would encourage our listeners if they haven't tried it out, I encourage them to give it a go. I think you got a degree in finance and then you started, I think, in real estate investing and then, in 2015,. You decided to make this change. I guess talk us through, like did you and your brothers? From the very beginning, you all three knew you were going to do this or did you go first? Or kind of tell us the story of how this came to be and how you chose to accept the risk of being an entrepreneur?

Jimmy Sansone: 6:49

Sure, yeah, well, I think you have to go back a little bit before then. So I grew up as the oldest of 10 kids. I grew up in a very entrepreneurial family, and both my parents are entrepreneurs, my grandparents were, and so we grew up in an environment in which work was a part of your daily life, not just nine to five. It was something that was discussed at the dinner table. It was something that was discussed afterwards. It was something that was discussed with family. My father has a family business with his brothers and that his dad started, and so that was always around us, and so I think that I always thought I would do something like that.

Jimmy Sansone: 7:28

Throughout grade school, high school, college, we are encouraged to think outside the box and start little ventures, whether it was ceiling driveways or summer camps, which is something that we started when I was like 12 years old was basically glorified babysitting. That business actually continues to this day. My younger siblings run it. In college, I sold Poinsettas, which was something that my uncle had started, and then he gave us the idea and then my brother did it after me. Those teaching moments where my parents really encouraged us to think outside the box, to try to do something were very instrumental in directing us towards an entrepreneurial path.

Jimmy Sansone: 8:11

After school I went into investment banking, like you said, but in a real estate group, so corporate finance, but knowing that I eventually wanted to do something on my own. So I took that leap with the normal shirts that we then called the normal brand and had family encouragement and support from the very beginning. So my younger siblings and little sisters before they get home from school they'd help me box up our orders and take them to the mailman, et cetera. And then my two brothers well, my brother land joined first and then my brother Conrad joined shortly after that, and now we run it together. But I would say that it was sort of a lifelong process of getting to this point.

Dave Hartley: 8:48

Yeah, and I read the story of how I think you asked for something when you were 12. I think it was a bike, and your grandfather said, well, or your father? Your grandfather said basically, well, go get a job and earn the money for it. And I think that's great, just that encouragement. So, speaking of that, I think you've got another great story about 102 people, and so I read this and I thought it was great because I think it speaks to the importance of how the community of family and friends and how that really drives success. So talk to us a little bit about the story of the key 102 people.

Jimmy Sansone: 9:22

Yeah, so I really am so blessed that I was able to grow up in this family where taking risks and having accountability and the value of hard work were really preached at the very beginning and you were held accountable for your mistakes, but you were also encouraged to make them and take some risks, and so from the beginning, our parents really believed in us when I speak personally, when I didn't even believe in myself, and so that 102 people that you're mentioning.

Jimmy Sansone: 9:48

So we launched on March 10, 2015,.

Jimmy Sansone: 9:51

Our first order was just after midnight a girl named Emma I'll never forget it because I wrote her a handwritten note.

Jimmy Sansone: 9:57

I think she was a friend of my younger brothers but that 102 people that bought on that first day I probably know 80% of them and you know from everyone, from my grandfather, who was who we were extremely close with and it was like a walking hero to us and he passed away a few years ago but he's still with us and he was really challenged me in a lot of kind of whether it was the business model or the idea or things like that, and we would kind of go at it back and forth, but it was a very important thing because he helped me kind of grow up, but he is on, he's one of those 102,. He bought like 12 hats, right, so that's a it's. When I go back and look at things like that, you really look at how blessed and how no one does anything alone and it having a support system and having a group of people who believe in you is the most important thing.

Dave Hartley: 10:55

Yeah, and that's a great story because you know, you think your grandfather, you know, obviously has a connection and maybe could get some free hats, but the fact that you know he was part of that first day, that's great. So we're visiting today with Jimmy Sansone, brother and co-owner of the normal brand, which has, I think, eight retail stores now soon to be more than that. So. So, jimmy, what's the what's the hardest part about your job? When you think about the most difficult thing that that faces you on a daily basis sounds like you've got a great support system, a great team. What's the hardest part of your job today?

Jimmy Sansone: 11:36

You know, our problems change over time. I think at the beginning I remember I used to rack my brain about things I don't even think about today, but I rack my brain about other things, and so I don't know that I can nail down what the hardest thing is. I think doing anything meaningfully takes doing anything meaningful takes a lot of hardship. I think we should expect it to be difficult, and so that's something we've really tried to embrace. So I think one of the things I'm trying to do better at is just turning it off for a time and just try not to control everything, and so that's more of a in my head thing than it is a maybe a reality thing. But anytime, the, the, the phenomenal thing is, anytime we have problems, having my partners, my brothers, having this great team around us, there really is a sincere belief that we can get over it, and so we have as many problems, if not more, as we had at the beginning. They're different, but I think we've got the right mindset to attack them.

Dave Hartley: 12:37

Yeah, now do you and your brothers do you? How do you divvy things up Like are there, does everybody have a different role, or do people just dump into different things at different times?

Jimmy Sansone: 12:46

Yeah, we've got different roles. So I handle a lot of product and operations and more of our creative side. My brother Conrad runs the direct business, so the online business side, the advertising and the marketing that funnel up into that, and then our stores. And then my brother Lan runs the corporate and wholesale side. So we all get together at least every week but almost every day, to discuss things. But and then we've got a team of people here also who chip in and we really focus on the culture that we're trying to build here, which is not dissimilar than a family in that it's a. It's a big teamwork thing, and so a lot of our core values in fact all of our core values circle around the idea of teamwork.

Dave Hartley: 13:35

So one of the things you mentioned earlier when you were talking about challenges I think it's one of the things that we hear often from entrepreneurs and especially startups during those first few years that it is all consuming. It is a 24 seven grind that, even when you try not to think about it, you can't escape and you have to think about it. So if you, if you were giving advice to someone who's considering going down this path leaving maybe a corporate role and becoming an entrepreneur what factors do you think people should think about or consider, or what advice would you give somebody that's trying to make that decision?

Jimmy Sansone: 14:10

Yeah, I would say you have to love it, so you have to really believe in what you're doing. I absolutely love clothes. There's no better feeling for me than a perfectly fitting, great quality garment. I sometimes drive the product team insane because of the level of specificity that we have with some stuff, but they take so much pride in it too, which would make it's what makes our product great. Seeing people walk down the street wearing a normal ranch shirt or hat or jacket is still the biggest thrill that I could have. So I truly do love it.

Jimmy Sansone: 14:43

So I think that's a really important thing because of all the problems that will happen and some of the harder times. So I would say that. So I also think, just a level of confidence that things will be okay. So sometimes that's earned, but I think at the beginning it has to be manufactured. You've just kind of got to have this maybe stupid confidence that things will work out. I was very lucky that I had the parents that I have and the siblings that I had, and grandparents and cousins etc. Who believed in me and us at the beginning, and then I think you just have to dedicate that you're going to work really hard, and so I don't think that there's anything special to doing this. I think anyone can do it, but from my experience in just making tons of mistakes, it does take, I would say, a few core qualities that you can develop, but I think it's important that you have them.

Dave Hartley: 15:39

So do you and your brothers? Do you all have a similar risk tolerance, given that you kind of came from the same environment, the same nurturing environment? Do you guys ever disagree in terms of? I'm sure there's some disagreement, but just in terms of how you guys make decisions?

Jimmy Sansone: 15:55

Yeah, there's disagreement all the time, and I think there's disagreement with the broader team as well, and we encourage that. And I think one of our core qualities that we really talk about is humility. And humility doesn't mean a lack of confidence, but I think it's the idea of the fact that you can be wrong and you could admit being wrong, and that interaction right there where I say something and I really believe in it and somebody else says something and it's a better point, and I think for us to be operating at full speed, we've all got to have humility say you know what, you're right, let's go with that, and so we really encourage thoughtful disagreement and think it's a very important part of what we're doing.

Dave Hartley: 16:38

Yeah, I think that's essential for the culture, and I think that does have to start from the very top, because when you have a brother and co owner that can say, yep, you're right, I was wrong, we need to go left, not right. I think that sends a huge message to the team that it's not just you're not just putting it out there, you're living it every day, which I think is key. So we're visiting today if you're not familiar with the normal brand, I recommend you check them out but we're visiting with with. Jimmy Sansone is a brother and co owner of the normal brand.

Dave Hartley: 17:09

So, jimmy, one thing that I want to talk about is certainly, as an entrepreneur and owning a small business, you are going to have things thrown at you that were not in the plan. As much as you have a plan and I think a great example of that in your world was in 2022, you experienced a fire which, I think, destroyed your office. So so talk to us a little bit about that and specifically about how do you deal with areas of adversity like that. I mean because that easily, you know, could have wiped you guys out, could have you know. So how did you handle that? How did you. What were some of the things that helped you get through that?

Jimmy Sansone: 17:46

Yeah, that was a wild day. That was in June of 22. I think I woke up to a text from one of our guys here, michael, who said hey, I think our building's on fire. And so I got dressed really quick, drove to the Central West End where that office was, where we had been for like six or seven years and had tons of stuff in there Inventory samples, desks, computers are really our entire company was in this. You know, 2000 square feet, 3000 square feet, whatever it was, and we had really built a. You know we had spent many, many, many hours there. So I got there just in time to watch the flames kind of get extinguished.

Jimmy Sansone: 18:26

But the destruction was very obvious. All the windows were blown out. The fire had started below us outside of a restaurant and just burned right up and I think we got out of the entire building. We got hit the worst so just torched everything. It was, you know, the day.

Jimmy Sansone: 18:42

I think we learned a lot because our team really snapped into action mode right away and we kind of got together and worked on a plan and whether you know it was getting the U-Haul truck and getting the things that we needed so that we could get anything that was salvageable out of there literally that afternoon, because the goal was to be set up in a new office with no downtime, and so I was really proud of how our team got to work. No excuses, just control what you can control. And we went through that office that afternoon. I mean we all had masks on and there was just, I mean it was just destruction everywhere and you know, some people were crying. I mean there was a lot to kind of take in, but we went to work right away and we were set up within, I think, 48 hours.

Dave Hartley: 19:30

Wow, that's amazing. So I do think those you know, some of those events, traumatic events, I think can really, you know, test a team, make or break either bring people together or lead people, you know, tear people apart. So I think when you look at that and sort of, you know now, based on where you are with the team, when somebody else encounters something like that, what would be, how would you suggest they get through it, what would be some of the suggestions of things that maybe helped your team get through it that others might want to think about if they're facing something similar?

Jimmy Sansone: 20:04

Yeah, I think that action is the best response, right? I mean, we couldn't I couldn't go in and make sure the fire didn't burn down. You know my personal office. I couldn't stop that. But what we could do is go get a U-Haul to make sure that we could get anything salvageable out of there out as soon as possible. What I could do is go downtown and source a co-working space. So as soon as we did have the stuff out of there, we had a place to go.

Jimmy Sansone: 20:32

You know, what we could do is try to encourage a team to be confident and don't be sad, and we'll all be fine. So we couldn't control everything. The one thing that we could and I think I've mentioned this earlier that what we could control was our reaction to it. So I think that comes with some earned confidence over time, and I think also action is the best antidote to anything, and so getting the action right away instead of kind of stewing about it is something that my mom, my dad, my grandparents they always encouraged go do something, and so that was especially on that day. I think that that helped a lot.

Dave Hartley: 21:11

Yeah, yeah, taking action and I imagine, probably, given you know what you've shared with us already, that you probably had some friends and family there pretty quickly to help you through the fire.

Jimmy Sansone: 21:22

I did. Yeah, we've got pictures actually. I mean, we put out kind of an alert to kind of anybody who would help and we had so many people reach out and say it was really to go back in there and help us bring stuff out. We learned a ton about our team, the people who really stepped up. That was a really meaningful thing and then our friends and family who showed up and helped us bring racks out and try to salvage as much as we could. My younger sister showed up, friends of friends showed up, so that it really it was a very bad day, but when you look back, there was so much to be grateful for in that day and you know, I think moments like that may maybe make you realize how much you actually have.

Dave Hartley: 22:06

Yeah, and I think also, you know, as you age, I think you also become more and more aware that your success is really less about you and it's more about others, and I'm sure you had a little bit of that as part of that as well, jimmy. The last topic I wanna cover with you is supply chain, cause whenever I talk to anybody in retail, you know there's always just the you, you. I'm sure now you know we're recording this mid 2023. I'm sure you're already well into. I'm sure you've got your holiday orders already in. And how do you? How do you? And then, given the supply change disruptions we had as part of coming out of the pandemic, I guess that's gotta be a real challenge for you in terms of how do you even start to guess what's gonna happen in six to nine months?

Jimmy Sansone: 22:57

Yeah, managing that calendar is a huge. It can be a big pain point. It can also be a great opportunity, but it's something that we definitely dedicate a lot of resources to, a lot of time to. So, yeah, I mean, we're right now we are getting first prototypes for fall 2024. So the end of next year, and so that takes a lot of and we're getting deliveries right now of fall, winter 2023.

Jimmy Sansone: 23:26

So, from the start of the development calendar on the product side to getting our samples in, that takes really around the world partnerships, and so our factory partners, our agent partners, things like that are an integral part of what we do. So we nurture those relationships. We travel a lot. We have late night zooms and late night calls and things like that. So that's kind of a 24, seven, three, 65 thing for us to be in sync with our factory partners around the world. Then, once we start getting those things, then that ships off to our logistics and more operations side.

Jimmy Sansone: 24:05

So, obviously, that those issues have been well documented over the last couple of years with problems with poor congestion, with freight delays, with freight costs going way up. So that's something that we're looking at right now. I mean, we just had a delay in one of these ports I think in it was in Asia, but we got bumped off a boat and it's a two week delay and so then it's okay. So what do we do about that? And what does that ripple effect for the rest of our business? And so we live and die by that calendar and it's an integral part of what we do.

Dave Hartley: 24:42

So one last question I wanna ask you. So when you were initially open to store in St Louis, you're kind of there, you can jump into it if necessary. I guess, as you start to open these remote stores, I think one of the things that's really challenging for a lot of small businesses is just how do you build this thing to scale. So when you think about how do you ensure quality and the customer experience at these stores that you can't get to very often at all, how do you make sure that when somebody goes into the new normal brand store in Alabama that they have the same experience that you would want, that you can kind of more control for some of the ones that are more local. Yeah, that's a great question.

Jimmy Sansone: 25:20

I think it starts first on the design of a store standpoint, and so we've got a great team all in house. And then my mom is a huge part of that and her style supersedes all of ours. And so I think, getting that aesthetic feel we want it to feel like you're walking into your own home. So each store is a little bit different. We always have a taste of that town dedicated in that store. That gives it kind of a local feeling, but it should also feel like the normal brand. So I think it first starts with that. When you walk in, you kind of know what you're getting.

Jimmy Sansone: 25:50

But then really scaling, it has come down to building a phenomenal team, and I think that that still comes down to the same thing that we talked about with culture. So empowering our people, having a very selective process with the people that we bring on. We go through a pretty extensive hiring process where we're really looking at culture first. Is this person a team player? Does this person care about what they do? Do they have the type of hunger and competitiveness that we think it takes to get us to the next level? Are they humble? Do they take ownership? All of these things, all the lists of our core qualities. So I think the way we will continue to be great hopefully, god willing is to continue to grow a phenomenal team, and me and my brothers are very, very much dedicated to that. And so far it's gone okay.

Dave Hartley: 26:43

Great. So we've been visiting today with Jimmy Sansone, brother and co-owner of the normal brand. So, jimmy, one of the things we do when we wrap up these episodes is maybe somebody didn't get a chance to listen to the whole thing or, you know, they want to take something away from this. So I guess, when you think of the conversation that we've had for the make it count segment, what would be one actionable item that you would suggest listeners do, that entrepreneur starting your own business, small business owner that you would recommend they take away from this conversation?

Jimmy Sansone: 27:20

I hesitate to give any advice because I don't think I'm in a position to give a lot of advice.

Jimmy Sansone: 27:25

Okay, I think that I make so many mistakes and we, you know, mess up so much stuff that there's so many smarter people to take advice from. But I guess I would say that in hindsighting, and kind of any level of success that we've been able to have, what is that attributed to? And I would say that surrounding yourself with great people is probably the most instrumental thing you can do in your life. And either you're just blessed by God, like I am, to be surrounded by a phenomenal family and then been able to be around great people who become great friends, and you know you're surrounded by people who are better than you. It's such a leg up. If you're not that lucky or blessed, then read great books and listen to great podcasts and cut out the kind of negative people in your life. Just cut them right out, because I think that having a support network and a level of encouragement and better people around you, it's an absolute, definitive end thing that you will be better if you surround yourself with better people.

Dave Hartley: 28:26

Yeah, and I certainly appreciate the humility and I did read a quote from you, basically that you're hesitant to give advice, sometimes like if you've been married two years for you to give advice to a couple that's just getting married. It's like no, no, no, no. I'm not qualified, I haven't figured this out yet. I'm not ready to give you advice on this yet.

Jimmy Sansone: 28:46

There's no worse best man speech than the clown who gets up there who was married for six months and he wants to give the new couple advice. I just thought that's when you had to the bar.

Dave Hartley: 28:58

Got it Well, jimmy. We appreciate you spending time with us and best of luck for continued success. Growing the normal brand.

Jimmy Sansone: 29:06

Well, thank you for giving me the opportunity to speak with you, and I really appreciate it.