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Missy Kelley: So that conversation with Liz had a lot of nuggets in it. But my main one was when she spoke of, one of the key, like signifiers of health for an organization is the ability to have difficult conversations and healthy debate. But the, but the key was: difficult conversations and healthy debate in purpose and the purpose of coming up with the best idea.
So, you know, we talk about wanting to have, how important it is to be able to debate things in a professional way and to, to be able to speak that last 10 percent of truth. But I really liked her caveat that all of that is in pursuit of the best idea.
Dave Hartley: Yeah, definitely. So this episode we're visiting with Liz Hughes of the table group, and we cover a lot of ground.
So I really wasn't that familiar with organizational health. And yeah, you're right, missy covers basically all the tenets of that and kind of what goes into that, and that you know, the. When I think about, you know, really the five dysfunctions of a team, which we talk about a couple of times in this episode, I think there's some really good basics.
And Missy, you even mentioned that it's timeless. So there's some ideas and things that you're going to hear in this episode that I think our listeners can take away from that. Now, but I think this, this episode will be relevant in years because the foundational things that we talk about and, and some of the nuggets that Liz shares with us, they're going to apply for a long, long time, regardless of technology changes or whatever.
So so yeah, it was great, great to have Liz on the show. Hope everybody enjoys this episode.
Missy Kelley: Today, we're welcoming Liz Hughes, a principal consultant with the table group. The table group was founded by Patrick Linceoni, a business consulting and bestselling author of 13 books, including Death by Meeting and The Five Dysfunctions of a Team.
Liz focuses on organizational health, working to help leadership teams become aligned behaviorally and strategically striving for quote, no light of day between team members, Liz's clients say that her work helps them accelerate their team cohesion and gain organizational clarity. Welcome Liz.
Liz Hughes: Thank you. Great, great to be here.
Missy Kelley: So tell me about this no light of day between team members. What does that look like?
Liz Hughes: Yeah. Yeah. So generally I go into an organization, any size organization, and really start with that most senior leadership team. And we believe it's very important for those, you As you mentioned, those team members to be behaviorally and strategically aligned and so oftentimes when individuals show up in in that team, and they maybe work in silos, or they show up with their functional head on, or they have their own agendas or their own priorities that they're focused on.
There is there is light of day between them. So our work is really designed to. First, on the behavioral side, just make sure that the team understands each other, trust each other, can engage in great conversation, leading to great decision making. And so there is that knowing one another and each other's strengths that you can leverage behaviorally.
That's the team cohesion piece. And then there's the strategic or the intellectual piece. Does the team agree in terms of, do you have the same priorities? Are you focused on the same things? Because if there's light of day between team members, then the rest of the organization can feel that, and that can show up in confusion that can show up in, you know, different departments not knowing what the other is doing, lack of collaboration.
So we really believe that that new light of day starts at the top. It's important for all teams, but when it exists at the top, which is where we focus first, then we know that there's clarity, there, there's a likelihood of clarity and ultimately results everywhere.
Dave Hartley: So, so Liz, you mentioned your, your focus is on organizational health.
So I guess what in, Very, you know, summarized terms. What does that mean? And then how do you assess where an organization is from an organizational health standpoint? What are some of the common issues that you see? Like when you assess organizational health? What are some of the key indicators that you're looking at?
Liz Hughes: Yeah. Yeah. Well, we really, you know, we like to think of it that organizations have to be both smart and healthy. And so most organizations are smart. They have technology in place. They have a great business plan. They have budget revenue, marketing, they have all those things in place and smart people.
So the smarts of the organization has to be in place, but sometimes a disproportionate amount of time and attention is focused on healthy and a healthy organization has minimal politics. And how do you know when there's politics going on? Well, are there, meetings after the meeting, we like to say do you change what you, you know, do you change what you think or what you want to say based on who's in the room?
So minimal politics and a healthy organization, minimal confusion and a high degree of productivity and a high degree of morale with low turnover of the A player. So organizational health is really about. Marrying the two making sure that an organization is indeed smart and has those key components in place, but it also gives the same amount of focus on the healthy side of the business, which we think is, and we have seen time and time again, is a multiplier of smart.
When, when teams and leadership teams can focus on that healthy part. But sometimes teams don't like to do that. It's like, "Oh, is it touchy feely," or, "let's let HR do that." But it's really everybody's responsibility to focus on that side. And then an organization has a greater likelihood of sustainable success.
Missy Kelley: So it's kind of like the, what and the how, right? Like how you work, not just like what you accomplish. And how do you measure that? So, I mean, the things that you described, like the meetings after the meeting or the things that you say in one conversation, but maybe different when someone else is in the room, I mean, that sounds pretty just like the, the business world in a lot of cases, but to some, you know, to your point, there are organizations that are healthier than others.
Is there a metric, you know, how do you measure where they are and then how. Do you know that they're improving?
Liz Hughes: Yeah. Well, I mean, that's, I think the beauty of the world of consulting. We don't right away. I mean, typically the leader or someone on the team will reach out to us. Perhaps they've read one of Pat's books or they've seen him speak, or they just know of us, but when they first, when, when a leader first reaches out to us, then.
With that leader eye to eye, then we, I hear from that person, what's going on, what's happening in your meetings. Why'd you call us to begin with? And so there's, there's a lot of dialogue that goes in and then I dive right in with the team and we usually have we have some initial meetings in which I can observe.
I can observe how they're interacting with one another.
Dave Hartley: I bet you that tells you a lot just by sitting through, yeah.
Liz Hughes: Probably straight away. I can tell, but over the course of time, I, I can assess. I mean, we do have some assessments. We we have an assessment around the five dysfunctions of a team or the five behaviors of a team.
So that's one component, but really, The true assessment comes from the team, myself, the leader of the team, really diving in and starting the work. And a lot of things can be revealed there. So we start to see whether people are holding back in meetings. We start to see if some people dominate conversations.
We see if there are truly people are operating in silos. So there's a lot that happens. They do their business. And I come along for the ride and assess in that way. And then together, really the team, it's all about the leadership team being committed. And then we just roll up our sleeves and get, we, we get busy to resolve some of the things and call them out.
We're pretty straightforward. And we ask a lot of probing questions. And from there, the team hopefully is motivated to want to make some changes. That's why they call us because they're motivated to want to make some changes.
Missy Kelley: So how long does an engagement typically last? Like, how long does it take to get everything, you know, back to perfect? Or-
Dave Hartley: Can you get this done in a week? I think is what Missy's asking.
Missy Kelley: How long would it take you to fix this?
Liz Hughes: Really it's not me ever fixing the problems. It's really a partnership. It's the team, you know It depends on where the organization is. I like to say that this focusing on organizational health is an ongoing conscious effort.
So, with or without me, if a team starts the journey with us often, I'll go in and I'll work with a team for a couple of days, but then the engagement might exist over the course of six, nine, 12, maybe 18 months. So the formal engagement, because we're doing a lot through that time, and we're also cascading to others in the organization.
We're not just keeping that at the leadership team. But I have many clients that I've worked with after doing this for nine years, I have some clients that I've worked with for seven, eight years because people on the leadership team change acquisitions. I mean, all the changes that you both know, and that the listeners know happen.
So it means, "Hey, we got to keep working on this. Maybe we could use somebody to partner with someone outside."
Missy Kelley: So you do go layers. You know, below maybe middle management and that below just the executive leadership team, or do you, you don't necessarily rely on them to make it cascade throughout the organization?
Liz Hughes: It depends on what they want. Sometimes I have a client right now who has a very, very strong chief people officer. And they knew straight away what they wanted to do and how they wanted to engage us. And so so I work with that chief people officer because, for example, one of the things we do is help an organization determine their core values.
And so that whole rollout process and that whole that whole embedding it in the organization is important. But that they need, they need a chief people officer and her team to do that. So we do work, we do work with that same client. I'm doing some, some things with the next level directors and so on.
So sometimes they'll have me be involved with that cascading effort. Sometimes I'm just advising them. Ultimately, they, they do the heavy lifting around that. Sometimes I stay with the executive team, but then they're doing all those activities based on what we talk about and what we have seen work in other organizations.
Dave Hartley: So our guest for this episode is Liz Hughes, who's a principal consultant with The Table Group. So Liz, for season three of the podcast, we're focusing on innovation. So one of the things that we try to do in our conversations, and especially as I think about Okay, you work with a lot of leadership teams, and I'm sure when you think about their top goals, I'm sure, you know, innovating in their business, whether it's new revenue streams or better ideas to, you know, how do you beat the competition?
All those things I'm sure are there. So part of what we wanted to explore with you is really, you know, ideas that you have and things that you see that are either obstacles or enablers for innovation within some of the companies that you work for. So, Missy, why don't you, why don't you lead off with our first kind of innovation focus questions?
Missy Kelley: Well, you know, it sounds like you're working with, you're working with organizations that have the intention of being healthy and, you know, working well together. And one of the things that stifles innovation is when organizations sometimes just get stuck, like maybe stuck in the way that they've always done things or just not really knowing how to go, you know, take the next step.
Take their you know product or their their business to the next level. So how do you help with that?
Liz Hughes: Yeah, I mean we need oftentimes organizations Oftentimes organizations are focused on too many things and so they might have an excellent, you know, really well thought out took a lot of time three year strategic plan and those things are important But so often organizations bite off more than they can chew.
So, you know, one of the things we try to do is take a look at what are those strategic pillars? What is the vision for the next three years? And and, and where are, where, where and why are they stuck? And is it because they're trying to do too many things? Sometimes I'll see that the, the three year strategic plan is good, but they, the company hasn't.
Hasn't broken it down into bite sized pieces. Like what's the most important thing that we have to do in this next 12 months. Sprint that will really give us the focus that we need to achieve those strategic pillars down the road, but most of the time, there's a lot going on. People try to do too many things at once, so we need to assess where they are, what's working, how they've had conversations, you know, and that that's a lot of where when, when I come in, it's, it's not just about what their smart plan is.
But it's about, why do you think you're stuck? And when I can observe a few meetings and when I can get in there and I can see, sometimes it is about the way in which they're talking about things. Sometimes it is about the team dynamic. Sometimes it's when they're not creating time and space for innovation.
They're just continuing to do the same things because they've always worked. And, and there's some people on the team that are really comfortable with that. So it really requires people to be open about where they're going, where they're stuck. So I, I think a lot of it has to do with our, we get in our own way behaviorally, or we get in our own way based on we're doing things the same way all the time.
Dave Hartley: Yeah, I just might be guilty of having 18 really important strategic priorities that we have to get done this quarter. Yeah, I can already, Liz, I can already hear you telling me, Dave, you can't have 18. You've got to have three at the most. So-
Liz Hughes: And imagine the confusion in the organization. So it's like, okay, and at the executive team, intellectually, they're all like, "yeah, we- sure we can get all these 18 things done, like, no problem.
You know, it's like, and then imagine the cascade to other people like, well, which things I do now. So then, you know, Productivity suffers and everything else as you, as you know.
Missy Kelley: Got it. So I know from reading The Five Dysfunctions of the Team, which is great. If, if you, if any listeners haven't read that book before, I highly recommend it.
So I know in the triangle sort of the foundational aspect of effectiveness is trust. And our lack of trust, I think, is the number one dysfunction that's there. So when you think about, like, how can businesses create a forum where to establish that trust and to cause healthy communication and open debate to happen and, and how can you create, you know, what are ideas for creating a culture where people feel free to actually speak their mind and, you know, come up with crazy, innovative ideas?
Liz Hughes: Yes. Yeah, that's the that's one of the big things we work on and it sounds touchy feely building trust, but it's really takes quite a lot of courage for leaders. It is the foundation when we talk about trust and building that amongst the team. We are talking about vulnerability based trust. Not predictive trust.
So predictive trust is, "Hey, I'll see you at that meeting" or turning that report to me on time. All of those things are important. Predictive trust matters, but vulnerability based trust looks like me saying to you, if I'm on a team with you, "Hey, I'm sorry, I messed that up. Or, "Hey, I need your help. I need your help in this area. Do you have any ideas for this?"
It means revealing a little bit more about who I am and my working style and my strengths and even maybe some of my challenges. And so through us being vulnerable with one another, I sometimes I like to say, take the mystery out of what it's like to work with you. But we hold our, we hold our work or we hold the way that we are so close to the vest because we need to show up and we need to, know what we're doing all the time and, and it's, it's really difficult.
So when we start to break down those walls and when I start to understand that maybe. Missy, you're really detail oriented. And if I'm going to come to you and we're going to work together and I have an idea, then you're going to expect to want to see some data. You're going to expect to want to know well, why, you know, why is this an idea?
So when I get to know everything from who you are as a person, and we can start to be vulnerable with each other, and we can start to share what my working style is. Then we start to understand each other. And through that trust. That enables an environment in which people feel safe to engage in healthy conflict, to engage in healthy debate and an idea discussion.
If I don't have trust, I'm less likely to do that. And that is something that really can foster innovation is when you have a healthy, ideological. Culture of of debate, robust dialogue, all ideas can be heard, but that's where a leadership team really needs each other. Because if the leader's coming up with all the ideas, that's really not going to create any sort of innovation or really any great decisions.
Missy Kelley: So how have you seen this really art of building trust change as we've changed the way we work post pandemic?
Liz Hughes: Are you talking about just in terms of, because-
Missy Kelley: Is it the same? I mean, like, you know, like if you, you know, if you want to, Ask somebody for help or, you know, the what did you say?
The non predictive ways of building trust? Like, it seems to me that would be easier to do if there's somebody sitting right outside your office and you can just pop over and, you know, ask for an idea. And that it would take more effort, more intention now that you have, you know, maybe half the people are working from home or are in another city or something like that.
And I'm just curious if you've seen that shift since we've collectively changed the way we work.
And is it, is it harder to build trust on a remote team than it was or that it is in an in person team?
Liz Hughes: Yes. I mean, the answer is yes. I mean, I continued to do this work during the pandemic and after. And certainly when we're face to face, that is easier for us to get to know each other.
Cause that's what we're really talking about. The vulnerability based trust is me just getting to know my team better. A team has to decide if we care about having a culture of trust, if we care about getting to know each other to your point, yes, there has to be more of an effort. And so what does that look like?
That means that we're going to be doing that in in, in a virtual setting. Or if you, if I'm a new team member and on your team it's important for you to reach out to me and get to know me. It's important for me to be proactive about that too. So it is the world we live in. It does it does require more of an effort, but it can be done and it has to be done.
I mean, it is really, there's a business case for doing it. Otherwise, otherwise, I believe innovation and ideas can be stifled if that trust and that healthy debate and dialogue isn't there.
Missy Kelley: So I have another question about innovation, and you know, you've talked about, like, the kind of the environment where innovation is really fostered and kind of grows best.
How do you integrate that more into the daily work as opposed to, okay, on Friday at two, we are having you know, a session where we're going to sit down and try to come up with some new ideas. Like how do you, how can you make it more woven into the way that you work and the way that you think throughout the week?
Or is it something that has to be kind of time carved out specifically because you're kind of maybe shifting right brain, left brain or something?
Liz Hughes: Well, you know, I think that it does start, I mentioned the alignment that exists at the top, but. Maybe I should say clarity, the clarity that exists in what areas does an organization need to and want to innovate and is that communicated and cascaded to everyone in the organization, not just in a meeting, not just in a town hall, but that there is some consistency in.
In whatever area you want to innovate, and there is just this constant flow of idea exchange. And so if the leadership team is very clear on the ways in which they want to in the areas that they want to innovate, and then their teams and their teams and their teams, then it becomes part of the culture.
And I think that if you're working on a culture of. Really healthy debate and robust dialogue where ideas are welcomed, then that should be happening over time throughout the day and the week. And so there's the clarity piece and then there's the environment for healthy, robust debate so that it's not some separate event because we know that it's not some separate event.
And having said that, I think that if there is, you know, having some separate time for strategic or innovative conversations, giving people the heads up about what that's all about. Sometimes, you know, we'll host a meeting. We might say, we're going to innovate about ABC topic. And then everybody gets in the room and it's like, okay, what are your ideas?
I mean sometimes it's not very well planned out. So my encouragement is that people are going to have. Separate strategic discussions or brainstorming meetings. How much of a prep and a pre read? Do people have ahead of it? And how much do they know? Like, the purpose of the discussion is that we are considering merging these 2 divisions.
And so we want you to come to the meeting, prepared to talk about the pros and cons of merging or not merging. And so really getting real specific with people, because most people like to think about that before they're put on the spot in a meeting.
Missy Kelley: Right. Yeah. Not everyone is- can spontaneously come up with ideas.
Liz Hughes: Yes.
Dave Hartley: So Liz, one of the things, let's, let's shift a little bit. One of the things that I wanted to talk about is meetings. And so Patrick's got a book Death by Meeting, which I, I think is great. So when you think about, you know, I know a lot of organizations that Yeah. I deal with and just interact with, they really struggle with effective meetings.
And so you hear people, and even when you look at surveys on how effective are the meetings you're in, could they be done by, you know, with just an email? It's, it's not good. We're not good at how we do meetings in, in the business world. So when you think about that, I guess, what are some of your. Tips that when you look at a lot of, you know, common mistakes that that businesses make about their meetings and then what are some, you know, a couple of things that it man, if businesses would just focus on these one or two things, it would really take your meetings to the whole, you know, to another level.
And I know Patrick's written a whole book on this, so I don't expect you to summarize an entire book. But what are your, you know, what kind of nuggets would you share with our listeners?
Liz Hughes: It's one of the main things we work on with teams because almost all teams will say. Our meetings are kind of a disaster.
Well, we're well intentioned, but what really happens most of the time is we like to call it meeting stew. So you have a meeting, maybe it's your every Wednesday meeting and the agenda is jam packed. And, you know, on one of the agenda items is talking about the company picnic. One is about the benefits change.
One is about, Oh, by the way, should we, should we're going to be acquiring this new company? So what should we be doing about it? So it's, it's just jam packed with all of these different things. First, too many agenda items. Secondly, just all over the map on what they are. You know, different types of categories of things and people run out of time and they leave the, the meeting confused about, did we decide anything?
Are we supposed to say anything? Not say anything. So, 1 of the main things is just to ask yourself, you know, do you suffer from meetings to in your meetings? And so that would be 1 thing. That's probably an indicator to revamp your meetings. The other thing is that even it's simple in theory, but not always easy to do, but even by setting up a new meeting structure in which you have a tactical meeting, let's just say once a week.
So, your Wednesday meeting is a tactical meeting with the leadership team, and that meeting is really about what do we need to know decide do in the next 7 days until our next meeting. You're not filling that with strategic topics necessarily. There might be some emergency things or something you have to talk about, but it really is action and tactical.
And then having a separate strategic meeting at least once a month for that same team. And that is where you maybe have one or two topics. And that's where that pre thinking and that preparation comes in. And I know going into that strategic meeting that that is about. Solving problems. Maybe we're just going to brainstorm.
Maybe we're going to talk about some big decision that has to happen, but when we have that separateness, that is a game changer for most organizations when they can start that structure and cadence and stick to it. Now, of course, sometimes you're going to have to have ad hoc strategic meetings. So sometimes it's like, okay, well, we can't wait till the end of the month for our strategic meeting.
We need to talk about this now. That's going to happen and the other bit of the structure is for executive or leadership teams to have quarterly off sites and so off site meetings of a day or 2 where there's maybe deeper strategic topics. Maybe it's around budgeting time. Maybe it's about succession planning, but there's this structure that exists by separating the kinds of things we talk about. So that's 1 thing. And that that really helps. And when we talk about innovation, clearly. When we have those set aside times for strategic conversations, we're going to just generally have more ideas and more, we're going to be more innovative when we have the time and space.
Missy Kelley: I know one of the things that people talk about is so many meetings.
So, so sometimes it's the volume, right? Of the number of meetings that you have. And when you, when you mentioned, you know, not having too many disparate things on an agenda, the first place my mind goes is, does that mean we set up another meeting to talk about that one and another one to talk about that one?
Like maybe and so my question is is that do you have like a kind of a Guidance on like when something should just be an email and not a meeting. I mean, is that part of how you... whittle down the number of meetings you have so that the ones that you do have are more effective.
Liz Hughes: That's one thing. I mean, I think that that's I think we get stuck in a rut of the same report outs in our meetings.
It's like, okay, now we're going to hear from sales. Now we're going to hear from finance. It's like, well, if, if the team makes a decision to say, can we have the discipline to read those things on a weekly basis, and then we don't want them? So I think it's having the willingness to, to change it up.
And use email more productively. That would be, that would be one thing that, that can really, really help.
Dave Hartley: So Liz, you mentioned earlier that, you know, if all the ideas come from the leadership team, that's not, that's not good as it relates to innovation. So, but when I think about that, it's like, okay, so are we expecting all of our employees to innovate?
So when you think about that, I guess, how can I, I, you know, if leadership team doesn't want to do that and they know that ideas need to come from within the organization. How can I set up a structure that. Supports that or empowers that. How can I get my employees engaged in, you know, thinking about innovation?
Liz Hughes: Well, we've talked about a couple of things already, you know, back. I'll just I'll keep going back to clarity because I think it's important. It's that is there a clear message? Is it reiterated over and over again? One of our disciplines that we work with teams on is over communicating clarity. So in this case, over communicating what you want to innovate around.
Usually we make an announcement. We talk about it once or twice. We send out an email and we expect people to remember. And so I think the level of clarity and over communicating about innovation. The other thing is that, I mean, I know a lot of groups that there is a particular area or subject matter in which you want to innovate around, or you want ideas, you know, is there people use task force or forums, but selecting different people across the organization and to say, We really want to generate great ideas on manufacturing a new water bottle and what it should look like and the look and feel.
And, and so decide who you want to tap into and create a forum, create a team, create a task force of people. And not too many people, but. Select them from across the organization define what their, what the expectation, what the expectation is, what the role is and create the conditions in which they can set the timeline and, and, and encourage them to meet with whatever frequency and give them a forum with the leadership team or whomever.
I think there's also the side benefit of you're tapping into your high potential people. You're getting to know people, you're developing people. And it really is very, very smart to to ask that those teams to collaborate across functions in an organization. Sometimes we go to the same people, the same group, or we expect marketing to be the people to come up with all the innovation. It's like, no, actually it exists in other places.
Missy Kelley: Sure. So. I'm thinking about change, and I imagine that people come to you, companies come to you when they're, you know, maybe going through a big transition, whether it's a merger or an acquisition. Or even a new leader. So what are some of the biggest change management obstacles that you see?
And is there any, like, I would love for there to be like a silver bullet on change management, but even if you could just give us some of right, even if you just give us some of the top, you know, the, the main things that, that businesses seem to grapple with during these times and, and how you address those.
Liz Hughes: Yeah, well, you know, I'll be a little bit of a broken record because some of the same things that I talked about apply. I think it starts with, you know, is there is there a recognition? I'll give you an example. I just worked this year with a new president came in a new CEO. And he started in January of this year and he assembled a new executive leadership team and they were making like three acquisitions within the first quarter.
I mean, that was, they were underway but he prioritized, organizational health. He prioritized getting the team in sync as one of the most important things that he could do. He said in a, in a couple of days time that they accelerated because they focused on team dynamics, getting to know each other, working styles, sort of remove the barriers or the things of people just kind of like showing up and buttoning up and, you know, like, let me make sure I look good for the new CEO.
He himself was very vulnerable about him, his strengths and what he brought to the table. So he had clarity, but he prioritized the work of the team amidst this change straight away. And he said, "if we wouldn't have done that, we accelerated becoming a team in these couple of days or in this time period.
Otherwise it might've taken us months and months." So I think it's that prioritization of team dynamic. If it's not a new team, and it's not a situation like that I, you know, I, I think that leaders have to recognize that just because they're okay with change, like, you know, because if the executive team or the leadership team, likely you've been intellectually talking about the change and embracing it for longer, certainly than everybody else.
So there has to be this acknowledgement that we're going to roll out X or do Y that. Not everybody's going to be okay with that. And so we like to talk about the law of thirds when it comes to change, which is you're going to have a third of the people that are going to be your promoters that are very gung ho, a third of the people in the neutral zone and a third of the people that are the, you know, the naysayers. Sometimes during change, we focus all our efforts on the naysayers.
When in reality, we shouldn't. I mean, you're always going to have some wait and see people, the people in the middle, then wait and see. I mean, sometimes the neutral zone people are wait and see, but really our focus as leaders should be on the promoters who can be influencers of change. And getting those neutral people to go through change, but it takes time and patience of leaders to sit down with people and understand.
And, you know, the word tracks are fine. And the FAQs are fine to develop. But really, it takes that Q & A and 1 on 1 time to get that middle section to the, to the, to the buy in.
Missy Kelley: That's interesting. Cause I can imagine that the inclination would be initially the people that are naysayers or seem the most anxious or questioning about it.
That, that would take a lot of energy and it would be, you know, natural to seem to, to, you know, go, go that direction. But it makes so much sense to just get your, the people that are- first of all, that you have the ability to actually maybe move because sometimes people are just not open. And so go to the ones that are willing to move.
And then certainly the promoters can make the biggest difference, especially if you can get them across the organization.
Liz Hughes:Yeah. And I would say like the neutral zone, people are watching. So if you spend all your time, people, you know, if you spend a lot of your time on the you know, the people that are the naysayers, then they're like, is there something we should be concerned about?
You know, is that, you know, like, but it's just a natural tendency. We want everyone to feel good about it. And the fact of the matter is takes people. It takes time, but we have to pay attention.
Dave Hartley: Got it. So, Liz one question I wanted to ask you. So, so so we're visiting today with Liz Hughes, who's a principal consultant with The Table Group, which was founded by Patrick Lencioni.
So, Liz, this is, this, I'm going to ask you a tough question. This is like, which of your kids is your favorite? So so Patrick, I know he is written 13 books, so of the 13 books, which is your favorite and why?
Liz Hughes:Oh, gosh.
Dave Hartley: I know it's a, it's a hard one.
Liz Hughes:Listen, I can't, I really can't pick one because the two, so let me just promote two because, or talk about two.
The two that are really the foundation of the work that I do with teams and I've seen transformation are The Five Dysfunctions of a Team and The Advantage. That's the basis of the work that we do. And that's where I see organizational health and transformation happen in companies. All of the other books kind of feed into those in many ways.
But if I were to suggest reading two, that would be what I would suggest. And those concepts are the foundation of our work.
Missy Kelley: So give me a, just a little snippet about The Advantage. Like what is that? What is the focus there? And key takeaway.
Liz Hughes:Yeah. I mean, the focus there is a lot of what I've talked about, which is organizational health.
So that book is based on Pat over many, many years talking with and working with, and a lot of the consultants working with what, what separates companies that get it, right. What are the disciplines and the four disciplines of organizational health are. One, create a cohesive leadership team. Two, create clarity. So are you clear on purpose, mission, values, strategic anchors? What's most important right now? Three, over communicate clarity and four, reinforce clarity. So those sound very, very general, but the work that we do really dives into all of those and it's the foundation for the business businesses and it's their playbook essentially.
Missy Kelley: Got it. Great. I'm getting that!
Dave Hartley: Yeah. So Liz, we've covered a lot of ground today. We appreciate you taking time to visit with us. So one of the things that we do at the end of every episode is the make it count segment. So when you reflect back on this episode, one of the things we try to identify is an actionable item.
When you think about all the things that we've talked about, and you would like our listeners to actually take some action based on our discussions today. What would that one thing be in your mind? What is it that you would suggest our listeners take away from this and actually take some action on?
Liz Hughes: If you're going to make me pick one...
I would say creating environment of healthy conflict, debate, robust discussion in pursuit of the best idea and it's, you know, so often I mean that that's really the premise of healthy debate and healthy conflict. That's what we're going after the best idea. The best the best decision. If there are crickets in the room.
If there, if ideas aren't heard, then you're going to be spinning your wheels. You're not going to be as innovative as you need to be. And you're not going to be able to tap into the innovation all around you. It's going to be the same thing over and over again.
Missy Kelley: Yep. Great.
Dave Hartley: Wonderful.
Missy Kelley: That's a good one.
Dave Hartley: Yeah. So, you, you picked one and you picked a good one. So Liz, thank you for being with us. Thanks for sharing your, your expertise and wisdom with, with us and with our listeners.
Liz Hughes: Yes, my pleasure. So good to be here. It's so good to be with you. Thank you so much for the opportunity.
Narrator: Thank you for joining the, but who's counting podcast. Make sure to never miss an episode by subscribing on Spotify or Apple podcasts, and let us know what you think by rating and reviewing. Keep up with more Andrew CPAs and advisors insights by following us on social media through the handles in the show notes, we'll see you next time.