Get Your Head Out Of Your ROAs & Start Asking The Right Questions w/ Andrew Faris Founder of AJF Growth

Let's talk about how to ACTUALLY grow your business... Understanding the in's and out's of your business is everything when it comes scaling the right way...

In this episode Mark and Trevor interview Andrew Faris, Founder of AJF Growth. Andrew walks us through the proper questions you need to ask about your business before you can answer questions like, "what is a healthy ROAs?". 

We talk about unit economics, contribution margin, product market fit, what your personal goals are, new customer acquisition and more...

If you want to truly understand what it takes to scale your business the right way. Then this episode is for you.

Please connect with Trevor on social media. You can find him anywhere @thetrevorcrump

Transcript

Trevor: 0:00

This episode of The Unstoppable Marketer Podcast is sponsored by Besty, the number one customer survey platform for E commerce and direct to consumer businesses. Mark. I remember when I was a CMO, no matter what we did our attribution that never seemed to be right and getting feedback around why our customers were purchasing our products was much easier said than done. Focus groups were way too time consuming and survey tools were too complicated, limited and way too expensive.

Mark: 0:27

That is a pain point that every ecommerce brand or marketer or owner is well acquainted with. And that is why Besty was created. So it simplifies customer insights by replacing those antiquated survey builders with an easy to use drag and drop interface and ready to go dashboard so you can start getting the customer insights and answers that will move your business forward. For example, a best a user found out what their customers preferences were around messaging and creative, and that allowed them to finally change their strategy and confidently scale to their first seven figure month, followed by eight more.

Trevor: 1:08

Geez, I like that. Well, I guess that's why hundreds of brands are choosing bestie to connect with well, they're besties Get started today with besties 14 day free trial, you can find bestie on bestie app.co Or go to the Shopify app store and search bestie download bestie today yo what's going on everybody welcome to the unstoppable Marketer Podcast with me as always is my co host Mark goldheart Mark what's going on my man?

Mark: 1:38

Oh, it just live in life and dealing with sick kids sick dogs, you name it. Last week has been eventful to say the least at my house but but the summer's here so we're good.

Trevor: 1:51

You had a gnarly when we wouldn't be in you and I chatted on the phone the other day and you were telling me about what you'd experienced you might have to let the listeners know here in a second after we introduce our guests but that was you had a pooping incident with your dog someone else's dog you've are watching right?

Mark: 2:10

Yeah, we almost killed my parents dogs. So that's always fun. Always your parents, my parents.

Trevor: 2:15

So you found out it was something you did?

Mark: 2:17

Well, technically, it's something they did. They gave us food. It seems like that food was contaminated or something but yeah, not you know, TMI, there was it was messy. There was blood. It was it was a disaster scene, but the dogs alive. I don't have to tell my parents I killed their dog. So all as well.

Trevor: 2:38

All as well. Well, perfect. We'll do. We'll segue that into our I don't know how we segue that into our into our guests. But let's let's introduce our guests. I'm really excited about this. This has been a podcast a long time coming. We actually tried to record this podcast, what was it last week or a week or so ago and we had so many weird technical issues that it just couldn't go through. And so I'm excited that this one's going through everything seems to be recording just fine. But I want to introduce our guests His name is Andrew Ferris Andrew Ferris is the founder of AJ F growth, which is a d to c e commerce growth marketing consulting agency, former CEO a four by 400 former VP of growth over at common thread collective Andrew Faris what's going on my friend,

Andrew: 3:30

driver. Mark, thanks for having me guys. Appreciate it glad that we got all the technical issues worked out. And I was just trying to sit quietly while Mark talked about.

Trevor: 3:40

Yeah, it was kind of a nightmare trying to get on last week. We don't know what was going on. But I'm really excited. No worries.

Andrew: 3:46

I got a lot of experiences like an amateur sound guy with stuff actually. And some funny place. Yeah. And so I have walked down this road a lot of times, and I completely understand. So it's no big deal.

Trevor: 3:56

Yeah, love that dude. Love that. Well, Andrew. So normally, what we typically do when we get a guest on is we try to figure out what what was the origin story of how we got connected because this, we've never really met in person before. And neither of us all three of us haven't really met you. So you're based out in California, Southern California area, we're based out of Salt Lake City. Essentially, I think we got we got to know you through Cody WITTEK over at kinship. So Cody is a good friend of ours. We've had Cody on the podcast before. For those of you listeners who didn't go listen to that. That was an episode where all we literally talked about was influencer marketing, which is such an epic episode. But yeah, Cody and I were just jamming one of these days, we had an event together in Vegas. And he was kind of saying, hey, who Who should I have on my podcast? He was asking me is there anybody you think I should have my podcast? I was like, oh, you should have so and so. You know back and forth. Like what about what about me who should have he's like, the very first person he told me he's like, you gotta get my buddy Andrew Ferris On your podcast, he's just an absolute legend when it comes to everything e commerce and direct consumer growth, he knows everything about it. And he'd been an incredible guest. And Mark and I love talking about ecom growth. So we figured that this is going to be a perfect a perfect episode. So while it's very,

Andrew: 5:20

very kind of very kind of Cody to say that and he is, he is the best. I love Cody. Yeah, I'm really glad to be doing it, guys. I'm really glad to be with you. And and yeah, this is exactly the conversation stuff that I want to talk about.

Trevor: 5:34

I love it. Well, let's get into it. Man, let's let's search. Just tell us a little bit about you. What are you up to right now? What brought you to the point that you are at today? And then what's going to happen just for all the guests, right? We're a couple minutes into the podcast. This is going to be like I'm just going to tell you right now I can already tell you this is going to be a meaty episode, and we're going to talk we're gonna talk a lot about how to scale your business I can I can already see it because the three of us that's what we do is we scale e commerce businesses. We have a lot of experience doing that. And so get your notepads out. I'm excited for this. So yeah, let's get a little history on you, brother.

Andrew: 6:11

Yeah, man. So I have been an E commerce for about eight years maybe maybe and a half something like that. Started off on the brand side at kalo. Kind of the first big silicone wedding ring company actually, Cody and I worked together for crossover a little bit there. And I was a media buyer there. And then eventually, like, was sort of I was actually doing all kinds of media buying started with digital stuff, but then was like buying print ads and stuff like that to which were generally don't do that, at least at least, at least at least at that time for that brand. They were Yeah. But that was a wild ride that was zero to 20 million in a year and a half was no funding. It was just like, put up a picture of a ring on the internet and people click and they buy it and you get four to one on your money. It was crazy. So so went from there with Taylor Holliday, who his brother had founded kalo. He was on the cap table at kalo and it traded services for equity while he was building his ad agency comm thread collective. As Taylor's agency started to grow he went over to kind of run the agency full time out of instead of out of being essentially a VP of Marketing at kalo and I went with him pretty soon after sort of became the first ad strategist they're working with other clients turned out it wasn't that easy for other clients actually, that you didn't just put up a picture of the product and then get four to one on your money. That was a unique thing about kalo. And so start working around a whole bunch of other brands and clients that which is which was really fun eventually became the head of strategy there. And then CTC spun off its own brand holding company aggregator called four by 400, which I first went over to lead growth out and then eventually ran that company to MC success, I would say we had some some really good wins along the way some losses along the way. And now for my 400 has contracted basically to being one brand, which is bamboo Earth skincare brand, which just was by far an outsize opportunity relative to the others kind of ditch the aggregator thesis. And I left the end of 2021 in the beginning of last year 2022 I wasn't actually sure if I was gonna go back to CTC I had a few different things I'm super still actually a partner over there. And that's the kind of holding company of CDC and great relationships there as well. So there's, there's no, there's nothing relationally challenging there. But wasn't sure what I was going to do looked at a couple of brands and going in house somewhere. And and sort of a couple of a couple of clients, it sort of fell in my lap. And so I started consulting on my own and loved it. Just like I've really enjoyed doing that. And now I'm at a point where AGF growth is my own consultancy, you call it an agency but that's actually like too big of a word. It's basically just me and then I have a just brought on somebody to bring to do creative strategy help with me, even that is just part time. So it's really me getting kind of in the weeds with some brands working in the sweet spot really doing sort of managed services, meta ads, being the first growth lever that I'm going to work with brands on is where I'm strongest. But but really thinking broader than that about growth strategy and ecommerce what like I call like p&l design, like, what is your p&l gonna look like if you grow your business effectively relative to your goals? So if you want to grow up with the million dollar business in the next three years, what does your p&l have to look like for you to get there? And then how do we design your customer acquisition strategy to meet that? So that's, that's the short ish, medium ish version. I think it might have been a little long winded but the shortest version of of where I'm at and what I'm doing.

Mark: 9:32

That's amazing. Well, I have a question right. Going back to my intro and messy situations. I think a lot of E commerce is in a messy situation right now. I think across the board on Twitter, it sounds like there's some three PL companies reporting 20% 30% year over year, decrease in volume being shipped out of their their warehouses. So it sounds like we are seeing a contraction in the mark. It somewhat just, I mean, relative, I mean, the growth trends still going up, right? It's just, there's a big boom, because the 2020 COVID. And now we're kind of seeing some of that. Come back. So you said, you said you're going into this role as a consultant trying to help people figure out their p&l is Do you Do you see that being more of a role for agencies? And you also, do you see agencies contracting into more of like consultants going forward now that people have to actually worry about, oh, it's not so easy. You can't just throw an ad up and get four to one anymore? Right. Like, that's just not happening for anyone?

Andrew: 10:37

Yeah, there's a lot there. I, I would say that there are a couple of layers of great growth, thinking in E commerce right now. One of them is like the skill of Facebook ads and media buying, which has changed a lot. And I would I would include in that creative strategy, and, and sort of like some combination of I would think about a sort of an in platform skill. How do you use the platform? If you're thinking of an agency and media buying, how do you use the platform? This could be true with Google ads, it could be true with with tick tock, it could be true it really in any platform, but how do you sort of know the ins and outs technically of the platform to to maximize its effectiveness? And then from a creative perspective, or, you know, a keyword perspective as the case may be? How do you also like design your ads to maximize that platform's efficiency? That's one layer. And I think that's a really important skill. Some people are really great there. There's another layer up from that, which is like the financial leadership, and I caught up not necessarily in terms of its

Mark: 11:40

hierarchy just upstream, right? Like the Yeah,

Andrew: 11:44

right, you just have to have this at a higher level of the business thinking, thank you, Mark. I'm not trying to be condescending towards anyone who's my point, the point is just like you is that like, if you can actually think carefully about financial management of your company, it really makes a huge difference for them how you go and be good in the technicals of a platform. And, and, like, there's the simple example here is like target setting, like how much should you spend on your ads? How much does that? Well, that that question? You know, the question that people always ask if you've been in an agency is, well, what's a good row us? And it's like that question belies that the person asking? It is not thinking very well about the question in the first place. Because a general good ro ass is impossible to guess. It really depends what it depends on what are unit economics, like, you know, where are you profitable or not? Are you trying to be profitable? And first purchase? What's your financing? What are your goals for your company, like, like, I have two clients right? Now one of them really wants to go and create a massive outcome that client a client a wants to create a massive outcome, highly driven person can, you know, really, really wants to go and nine wants to be a nine figure brand or nine figure exit, you know, or something like that, and just create something huge. Okay, so there's client a, client B is like, I want to grow 20% a year, you know, 10 to 20%, a year for five years end up with a business that I feel really proud of I love running, definitely wants to grow, definitely wanna be profitable, definitely want to be successful. But, but the outcome, there is like 20 25 million that they're aiming at. So So what what's the robust target for those two clients? Well, I mean, immediately, even before you talk about unit economics, LTV or anything else, you have to be thinking about, what are you trying to accomplish with this? And how risky Are you willing to be? Well, it depends how big are you trying to be? And all those kinds of things. So so that goals, ladders down to unit economics ladder down to LTV, and by unit economics? Just mean, are you profitable on first purchase, where and you know, where's profit created in your business? All those things? And you can just think about that right before now I do before I ever press publish on an ad in meta ads, or whatever. Those questions, ideally, are answered first. So I do think the best versions of agencies right now are able to do all of that. That's what I think I think the best agency, the best possible agency, or internal growth leader for a team, right, is able in some way to think about all those things, how do you maximize the effectiveness of the platform as its own skill? How do you connect all that stuff to your finances and what you're trying to accomplish as a business? And then, and then the elite of the elite can do both of those things together?

Trevor: 14:19

Yeah, I completely agree. I mean, you've got well, not only that, but just like marketing agencies. They're such a dime a dozen to right now. And it is, it is relatively simple to run, just run out for people. It's scary, right? People who don't know it, it is scary. Hence, the reason why they will oftentimes hire an agency that and usually the pricing is much better than than hiring somebody from an internal perspective. But I think you're absolutely right, you know, the average the average, I think, I believe I read that the average lifecycle Have a client for an agency is between four and six months. And it's for that reason exactly, which is, hey, you set some ads up for me and you're running it, and you've got some creative and some copy going. But I'm not seeing growth, I'm not seeing much more of a value or a benefit. And so I think in order for agencies to succeed, in today's day and age, you have to come at things a little bit different and provide more value from an over all consulting perspective, not just a, I'm pressing buttons on the back end, and trying to make this work as good as possible. I was just gonna say, you know, Mark, and I also own a marketing agency. And we've seen the same kind of thing where, you know, we've had some, we've, we've worked with some clients where they said, Hey, I wrote us has to be XYZ. And because of that, we were only spent, we could only spend a certain amount of money. Whereas the moment we dove deeper into their unit economics, and said, hey, guess what, if you triple your spend, and you're able to take a hit here, you've got the potential to grow really rapidly here, and then start to make it up on the back end with your lifetime value on your returning customer and your retention strategy over here. And brands that were making few hundreds of 1000s of dollars a month are now making millions of dollars a month because we introduced bigger unit economic chatter, rather than simple. Hey, what do you want your requests to be? And we'll keep it there.

Mark: 16:31

And what I love about this conversation is what you said, Andrew, is it's not, it doesn't have to do with necessarily an agency. It's also the internal growth leaders and a lot of internal growth leaders are set up for failure because businesses don't answer those questions first. So they hire growth leader and say, Hey, I just want to grow, but they don't really have a vision of how they want to grow their company, or what they want their company to be. And so then those internal growth leaders are also put up in a situation just to fail, because they have no idea what they're supposed to aim for. It's like, okay, am I aiming for high row as low as growth? Is it? You know, is it the new customer acquisition? Is it retention? You know, what is it exactly? And so, how would you say a company? I mean, you went over a little bit, but if you are a company right now, if you're an econ business, how are you approaching this vision? Is it strictly set by what the owner wants? Or does a company also have to kind of look at where they sit in the sea? And understand what kind of fish they are? Like, Hey, do you actually have product market fit? You go to that kalo example? Am I a good marketer? Or did this just have product market fit? Right? Am I a good marketer? Are we were we living in a 0%? Interest? timeframe? Like there's there's certain questions like that, that we have to ask ourselves as marketers? So as a business? How do you approach that, like, how do you help businesses approach? What is the actual vision? And what is an attainable goal for you?

Andrew: 18:01

Yeah, so I love this question, actually, because this gets to something that is what it says, I kind of can't answer that question. It's, it sounds really simple to say to somebody, what are you trying to build? Just answer the question. The truth is, most people don't know the answer to that question. And they don't know the answer to that question. Because it's actually not a business question. It's a human question. It's about what you want in life. And, and so for example, I talked to a client at one point who had an offer for their business, and they said, they shopped the offer to me and just said, like, what do you think you've seen a lot of instances this a good offer? Should I take it essentially? And my answer was, it is a good offer objectively, but there's absolutely no way for me whether to tell you whether or not you want to take it, or whether or not you should take it because it depends on what you're trying to do. At some point, I can tell you if the multiple on your valuation is good, I can tell you that with some objectivity, actually, like I know the answer to that question. But the question I can't answer for you is, are you going to be set you went and started this business? This is your blood, sweat and tears? Is this is this the is this a big enough outcome for you to be like, satisfied with it? And in this case, actually, it was a good offer? And the answer was no, it wasn't a big enough outcome. This was actually my client, a I referenced earlier who said, like, No, I want to build something really, really good again. So that was that. So now, the interesting thing to me about this, is that after is that when somebody tries to answer that question, if they actually don't have clarity to what they're trying to build, they almost everybody does the same thing, which is they just decide to want something bigger, they default to more money. They say like, I want more money, because it's sort of a tangible goal, you can always chase and if they don't have a sense of what they're trying to accomplish in their life, then then it just always sounds good to have more money, you know, so. So that's kind of what they do. And I think there's a lot of questions people should ask about whether or not that's something they want. There is one of them you got that mark, which is like is the business that we're talking about here actually able to generate the kind of outcome that you We're talking about, for example, like, is the ceiling on this business? A nine figure business? Or is there actually not enough? Like, total addressable market? And if not, what do you do about that? Like, is this position business positioned? Well, to grow that much? But there's also another question for me, which is like, well, what is the source of joy in life? And that gets to the deepest values that a human has, I think, and, and how you spend your working life and your the limited time that you have as a human alive in the world? And what are you trying to accomplish? Yeah, I can't answer that. For somebody, though. Though, I hope also to develop friendships and relationships with my clients in ways that I can become a sounding board for even those kinds of questions. So, so yeah, so it just depends. So I will try to objectively tell them, here's what I think is possible. Like, for example, another another thing on this is, you know, for this client a I was talking about who wants to build something pretty big. One of the things like they said to me, Do you Do you actually think this has nine figure upside, or whatever. And I said, I'm not sure because I'm not sure if your LTV is strong enough yet, because you're just never going to be able to build that big of a business. Well, not never, it's really, really hard. I can think of a couple counter examples to this, actually, it's really, really hard to build a very large business that doesn't have meaningful returning customer revenue in E commerce, it's just really, really, really hard to do that. That means if you don't do that, if you're making almost all your money on first purchase, then you have to be in like, I mean, the 99th percentile quality digital marketer, and many people probably think they're that good, but they're just not. And I'm not for the record, like I'm not that good. The example I always say here is the rich guys, the rich white guys like they are clearly that they are the 99th percentile digital marketers where they have figured out how to do customer acquisition at massive scale. So even though you only need one wallet ever, and that's the bulk of their sales, they have built a nine figure giant business that Shawn Frank said to me, the other day was going to do mid 100, millions this year, you know, I think he's been pretty public about that, and very profitably. And that's not with very much returning customer revenue, all told, it's basically built off of off of the fact that they can just they're so good at acquiring customers at scale, and continue to generate word of mouth and all those kinds of things. So. So that's what I said, I looked at that I looked at the LTV piece with this particular person and said, like, Okay, you want to build $100 million business, you probably need some measure of LTV, or some a huge amount of channel expansion or something that's going to that's going to put you there. And if those things are not on the table for you, then you probably don't have that big of a business.

Trevor: 22:33

Totally. Yeah, I think the other the other thing that you can also, I like what you're saying about like, Hey, you got to be in the top 99%. The other thing is not only do you have to be in the top 99%. But you also have to have a product that is that is customers are falling into that total addressable market to constantly does that. Does that make sense? So like that's, that's the other thing about their ear. Yes, the ridge Wallet team is absolutely fantastic at what they do. But they also have a product that just like, everybody needs a wallet. And when somebody hits a certain age or whatever, right, it's, that's always growing like the growth and need for that is constant to your

Andrew: 23:20

point, Trevor. The other example I was thinking of, and I thought of that is is simple modern, which is a business that I've worked with worked with last year, they were a client of mine, and saw their DTC business and their omni channel, massive Amazon in their 100 million Amazon alone. They're just incredible. Actually, I did a incredible interview with their chief ecommerce Officer Brian Porter, about how they got to 100 million on Amazon that's like, like, go listen to that on my podcast. It's so good. It's he's so smart. So there is that it's like, again, that same thing, like elite of the elite market are on that team. But it's exactly just that total addressable market, everybody needs a water bottle. And if you can find the right way to like, get water bottles in the hands of everybody who needs one, like literally other slot three and for the 4 million Americans. And that's I think they probably are international to like, all of them, like even down to my three year old, you know, like, has has a water bottle and in fact, he has a simple modern water bottle. So yeah, it's exactly that massive, massive total addressable market is another way to do it.

Mark: 24:13

Yeah. It's also a unique value prop. I think with Ridge, they have a huge total addressable market, like you mentioned. And again, this isn't taking any away from them. I think it's more credit to them for developing something that's unique. It's a very unique value prop for a wallet. So there's Well, I mean, everybody has a wallet. That's true, but most wallets are the same. Or reg came out with the first unique iteration of a wallet since how long did I have no idea a long time, right? I mean, maybe you had like some variations like a thread wallet or something like that. And maybe that's a similar vein. But with Ridge, they develop something that was unique, and so they have a huge total addressable market. They have a very unique value prop and an excellent marketing team, like you said, Right, so not only do they are they killing it on each are on the marketing side, they have a unique value prop for their total addressable market, which if you add all those things together, they're gonna grow over time, and it's just gonna happen. And so they have the potential of being in that nine figure, type brand, maybe even a billion dollar brand. I know, that's what Shawn Frank is aiming for. So the real question is, you get down to these most companies, right? They're not in that situation right now. Right? Most, most companies are in a situation where they're, they're kind of trying to figure this out, they're trying to understand where they sit, we've worked with clients that just had to accept that, like you said, Hey, if you don't have a returning customer rate over 15%, like, you're just gonna be in this kind of little over seven figure type brand. Like, that's just what you're going to be unless you alter it. So in your in your consultancy, do you help people understand and then move towards how do I increase my LTV with new products? or new lines? And how do you go through that thought process with them?

Andrew: 26:11

Yeah, so it starts for me with identifying that question, which is like, do you actually have good LTV? And the first question a lot of you I mean, I appreciate the way you asked that question, Mark. Because the first question a lot of people ask when that when they don't have enough LTV is like what more emails do I need to send to generate more LTV? It's like sort of retention tactics. And that stuff can be super useful. To help on the margins like good retention marketing matters, a good email program matters for sure. But that is a is not the the main driver of LTV, the main driver of LTV is your product. And it's people's experience with your product. The only tactic that I think seems to me to be able to produce a meaningful increase in LTV, relative to the product being static, basically, is subscription, if you can be great at generating a meaningful amount of subscription revenue, that is how you can potentially really jumpstart your LTV. So that's that's that's part of it for me is is to think through that issue. But it starts with identifying the number and many, many people, many, many entrepreneurs that I see, don't actually know what their LTV is on their products. And they especially don't know what it is like by product. So if you have any meaningful difference in your SKU set, like apparel is actually the probably the best example of this where like a customer who buys leggings from you, and a customer who buys a shirt from you very likely have different long term relationships to your brand, because they've had very different product experiences with their brand. But based on sort of the buying cycle of that product, sort of how promiscuous customers are in that category, right? Maybe you don't want all your shirts from one company. But you do want all your leggings from one company. Because once you find the right fit leggings, it really matters to get the right fit over and over and you say you're really loyal, there were the shirts, it's like fun to have a lot of shirts, you know, I don't know. I don't know if that's true. That's just like a hypothetical, right. And, and so being able to begin to break that down. And one of the ways that you increase your LTV is that you find your best LTV products, if you have any meaningful mix, and then actually generate more new customers against that product specifically. So this this is another place where like the finance affects your ad strategy before you can create awesome creative, you have to be generating that creative against the right product, which is a question of unit economics like margin on that product plus LTV. And if you're listening this and you want to know where to start with that my my answers is just go get lifetime ln I'm not paid by lifetime li at all. But you could get a free trial on it. And there's like a middle tier, that's like 49 bucks a month. And you'll get really good clarity to your LTV. You can sort it up by product and just go play with it just go play with their cohort thing for a while and see what you can kind of uncover there. But But yeah, that's that's a that's ends up being I do that now, as far as developing new products. Additionally, like you asked that Mark, I'm not a good product guy. But I will definitely have that conversation with brands to say, Hey, we should be thinking about if there's a way with product development to generate increased LTV, what are we doing there? And actually, this gets into something I was talking about actually, just in the last few days that I think is is like this question of like how does a brand grow past meta ads, especially if they're willing to tap their meta ads performance and they're sort of doing an awesome job there, which is which is you know, for a lot of econ brands where they are, they're putting a lot of time and energy into that. The temptation for a lot of brand owners at that point is to start looking at other ad channels. So they go in, they're like okay, I gotta get on Tik Tok, or go to YouTube or whatever. I am starting to believe that until you're at like 50 million plus, if you have a good Google categorical search and shopping setup, and you've got meta ads going, you probably don't need much else. And if you are tapping your meta ads volume in that moment, my recommendation for most of those owners would be instead of spending your time trying to beat down the door of other ad channels which are going to be less efficient. So far as I can tell, it's really rare. I've I've actually seen those channels X to produce meaningful value for customers, relative to meta, like normally, the next best dollar you can spend is still on meta.

Mark: 30:07

But Pinterest has, I would say buys on it.

Andrew: 30:12

I would say redirect that time and effort into really thinking about how do you provide more value to your customer with your with your products and memberships. And anything you can do to do that, so that you can actually just grow your meta spend, not by a new piece of creative but by like generating new products that you can run creative against, or that help your LTV or something like that. Kill yourself on in your business to create more value for your customers and your products. If you do that your medicine will grow. And you can actually keep keep pushing on that channel. Again, up until that sort of 50 million plus level.

Mark: 30:43

Yeah, just for our listeners, the Pinterest comment is a joke because Pinterest is notorious for being useless with performance marketing, so useless. Does not matter what industry

Trevor: 30:53

shiny though, sometimes it's so shiny.

Andrew: 30:56

I've seen some apparel or not apparel, furniture brands actually, like straight up selling furniture have not a large spend there, but like a decent spend there. But that's pretty much it. It's pretty rough otherwise,

Trevor: 31:08

I love where the conversation has gone. Because I think that I think a lot of people that I've talked to, and a lot of stuff that I've seen, you know, they don't oftentimes break their product categories into acquisition products versus retention products, you know, and so it's I love the point you brought up that it's super important for you as a business. And there's really easy ways for you to figure this out. A really simple way is to just go into Shopify, and look at what your best sellers are, right? And you can break that down by first time customer as well. You know, there's other products, like you said, like timely, that can that can break those things down into cohorts and actually tell you what a lifetime value is based off of a specific product, etc, etc. But I think a really great point for people to start out with what you're saying, Andrew is just understanding what those products are that drive a first time customer purchase, and start to lead with those, you know, and then what you're saying here is, you know, if you want to continue to grow, and if you have not hit that $50 million mark, rather than jump into the Pinterest of the world and the tiktoks of the world, you know, expand those acquisition products, try to continue to expand those products. Yes, you've got to work on your retention stuff as well, because you need to build that lifetime value and get those customers to continue to come back. You know, but start building out bigger products that people want to buy the first time to increase that total addressable market on the acquisition side of things. So I love that.

Mark: 32:44

Yep. If I can add another layer to that is everyone likes to talk about the 8020 rule, right? The Pareto principle, and it's totally applicable in this realm, when you look at your products, you will start figuring out that 80% Not just revenue, but profit, right? comes from a cohort of people that buy a specific product. We see that over and over and over again. I mean, it's always in play, it's always in this like 70 to 85% of your company's profit comes from a cohort of people that are buying a specific product. And if you can you understand those unit economics, like you were talking about Andrew as a company, that is where you can start succeeding, because guess what, you're losing money on a ton of customer acquisition, and you don't even know it. And that's the other problem is people don't understand that. Not all customers are equal. Like just getting a customer isn't always important, right? You might be losing money on customers. And people don't even understand or grasp that even though you're selling to certain people and you think that's great, you actually really might just be losing money on that. And I liked that term, you said they might be promiscuous customers, right, they come in, they just want a t shirt, and then they're gone. So you got to either figure out, is it worth even advertising to those kinds of people? Right? Or how do you actually get them into your fold and convert them into your brand? And then I wanted to ask you when when you're looking at these things, how do you approach converting people into a brand? I know you talked about growth levers? Do you get into the retention levers at all of hey, how do we get somebody these promiscuous buyers? Let's call them how do we get them to start looking for other dates and get more bought into the brand?

Andrew: 34:38

Well, yeah, so again, I think you said something right, which is first of all to be thinking about this on the front end instead of just after they convert right which is like this notion of like, like to use my example from earlier, acquiring customers on your higher LTV product implies that that product experience is better and that that's the reason why they're going to stick with you. So So it starts with kind of what you were just getting out remark, I think, which is like going in and getting the right customer first. As opposed to, as opposed to thinking about this sort of just broadly, that that's, I think, job number one. I think as far as like, brand building in that respect goes and sort of tying people in. I think the, the main issue here is having an incredible product experience, first and foremost. So it's not really a marketing tactic issue, there's stuff you can do, again, here, I think, being smart about your communication, in a way that deepens your relationship with customers meaningfully is really going to this depends a lot on your category, like, again, like, you know, apparel is going to be really highly about sort of, brand feel, once you get past sort of providing products that people like the fit, and the look of, and you know, materials, quality, all those kinds of things. But like, like real estate, I'm wearing a fresh clean threads shirt right now. And I wear a different thread shirt basically every day and have for a long time because the fit is right for me. And that's hard for me to find I'm tall skinny, dude. And so finding this shirt that fits me right is great. So now I have 20 of them. And, and that's just what I do. And it's easy. And it's frankly not because I think the fresh clean threads brand is something that I like deeply resonate with. Personally, I just like the way it fits it like delivers on the promise that that, that and I think, you know, I think there's some element of that with some brands, and then some element, you know, if you think about the sort of monster brands in the world, and they're where they're spending giant amounts of money to get you to have a deeper level of brand affinity. A lot of those are sort of apparel brands and that sort of thing to if your problem solution oriented in your in your brand is really about solving the problem, right? So again, I think of a category here like skincare, I've worked on a skincare brand for 400. And there was some really awesome brand work that was done by the founder of that brand to resonate deeply. Her vision for the brand was in her words to be a refuge for women. So she really resisted a lot of the over problems, solution messaging of that category, and basically making it sound like, Hey, you're going to be an ugly, disgusting person, if you don't use our stuff. It was like, totally a different message than that and was really cool. That said, if the product didn't deliver on the promise that it was done, people would have gone somewhere else they just would have. And so that's what I would say my answer is if you want to generate real loyalty, the number one thing you can do is work really hard to make sure you deliver on your promise in a way that meets and even exceeds the customer's expectations. And that you're in a category where there's actually a reason to buy again. So again, another counter example that would be that ridge example where it's like, it doesn't really matter how good of a job they do. You don't need for wallets, you know, so like, so they have to actually develop products that are going to, like reinforce this and that are going to build into that brand. But they're kind of scale, etc. But, but yeah, for a consumable brand, it's different. So but yeah, I think that's probably my answer is deliver on the promise. And as much as you can deliver above and beyond,

Trevor: 38:02

I want to I want to break this down just a little bit where you kind of you kind of explained it, but can you just like, give me a little synopsis, you've used the word product deliver on your product

Andrew: 38:11

experience?

Trevor: 38:13

Can you give me a list of like, what are the three ways four ways commonly that somebody can deliver on a product experience?

Andrew: 38:22

Yeah, so I would start with thinking about I would start with thinking about it's really depends on the category. So again, Problem Solution categories. For those kinds of products, it is just about solving the problem that is like overwhelmingly what it's about, right? If you're selling deodorant, and the person doesn't smell good after they use it, and they stink. Like, there's your problem, you have to solve that your deodorant has to be better, right? Skincare is the other example I just use for that. I think it's a problem, right? That's like solve the problem. Yeah, there's from Yeah, that's good. Okay, so let's take another one. I work with a client called the wander club. Brand I love entrepreneur, I love Kenny Ozama. Amazing dude. And they it's like tokens that you? This is actually a great example of your question, I think. So Kenny had this idea of basically, he's been to 50 countries in his life. And he's noticed that he wanted to sort of commemorate those things. Think about the memories. Travel often really is really important to people and forms people in these deep and significant ways in their lives. And cultural experiences do that. And so, so Kenny created this keychain with these little like tokens on the keychain, and you there's a token for each country you visited and you can do the same thing for landmarks that you've been to baseball stadiums, people who like trying to go to all 30 stadiums, you know, national parks, you know, that kind of deal. So So, can you have these tokens, so right now the token has a washer, it's just like literally a washer with an engraved laser engraved name of you know, the Grand Canyon or whatever. Right, and it hangs from this kitchen wall. So Kenny started doing some things to the product. To take this idea, if you think about that it's not problem solution at all. It's just, I think what you're selling there is you're tapping into, if I have the experience of traveling to a country, it's a job that I loved if I go to Japan, and it's just like a joyful, amazing experience in Japan, I then leave Japan and I have the memory, but I don't have the experience anymore. But in any way possible. I want to tap back into that experience, because reminding myself and recovering that is an act of joy in my life, right? So I can re access my joy. And so the token that just says Japan on it is a nice start to that, and people have bought it and he's grown a really cool business. But Kenny start thinking like, what if we did some other things differently. So on his baseball stadiums, one, he started making the keychain that holds it out of an old baseball glove. And, and I think that's awesome, right? That's, that's one way so that every time I look at that, and I think about my love for baseball, it reminds me like, Man, I love baseball. I personally do love baseball. So I relate to this deeply. And so like I can think about that experience. And so upgrading from a keychain to a baseball glove keychain, keychain, ends up delivering more on this promise of I'm gonna help you tap into your joy basically, right. And then the tokens now are changing from just an engraved washer, to you know, he's getting MLB licenses, so that it's like, every one of the tokens is gonna have the actual logo on it to be a little nicer than it was before national parks, he got custom art for each National Park. And so when you get one, now, it's gonna just gonna be a cooler little thing. And what I mean, there is like, people were already in on the water club, like he's growing a good business there with a token, he already got somewhere there. But now he's taking this idea that he had, and like working really hard to figure out how to make sure that the experience of buying that token is even better. And actually, a lot of those customers are gift buyers, too. And so now that's another way to do it. Because I'm gonna feel better about giving us as a gift if the product has a little bit of a higher quality, etc. And so no, that's not problem solution at all. But it's just like, and that's so many hours of work, Trevor, it's like, so hard to do that, you know, but that's what I mean. And you know, you think about things like packaging. And at some point, Ken, he's got this idea of like, what about, it's called the Wonder club? What about creating an actual wonder club, you can be part of it and share your memories. And your experience is all built around this idea of helping people tap into these things that are important to them. And so that's the kind of thinking that I'm thinking about here. How do you like, push down into the experience you're promising and the brand you're building, and help people actually help your customer do that really delivering maximum amounts of value on your promise to a customer? They give you their money, and they're just so happy to have done it afterwards? Yeah, I

Trevor: 42:37

love that. So it's like UK get the you got to fix the problem. That was the number one, not every brand is going to do that. Okay, because it's not a problem solution. The second one you just talked about was like, it's experience, right? Like, the experience is what brings the joy, it's what brings the memory, right. There's also other things you can talk about, from an experience perspective, perspective, even from like a, from a packaging perspective, right? Like, if you ever ordered anything from ag one, athletic greens, or seed, for example, and experience their packaging, packaging experience, you know, like, those are things that keep people coming around because of how it makes them feel like if you can tap into that feeling emotion. The third one, I think that you you brought up earlier before asked the question, Is your your example with your T shirt. Right? You okay? It's kind of problem solution, but not really, its problem solution, the way you think about it, because you're like, hey, I have a specific body type that's challenging to to find a good fit. But to me like that third thing is maybe just quality, right? Like, like, yeah, it measures up on this quality of how it fits, it goes to the wash X amount of times, and it's still okay, because that's another thing that sucks about shirts is that they start to, they start to ball up, they start to shrink, whatever, whatever. So I love this kind of like product experience kind of direction you've gone down. And there's a several different ways that you can measure that one way, one way you guys can do it. You know, people can do that outside of just like listening to social chatter and just watching what your sales are doing. But there's also things like NPS surveys that you can kind of produce to people to understand like, Hey, how are we measuring up? And if we're not, you know, so for those of you who don't know what NPS is, like, that stands for Net Promoter Score, right? I believe net promoter score, and it's a scale of one to 10. Right? And what happens is you either have people who are promoters, and I believe I believe promoters are seven and above, right? You've got passive people who are what is it? Is it like a four to six, and then you've got detractors, you know, who are this like 123 or 124? You know, and so asking the detractors and the passive people like, Well, why, like what is it right like if you You want to really, really get to the bottom and then asking the promoters who are like, Okay, why do you love it so much? You know? So there's several ways you can do that good.

Andrew: 45:09

Yeah, well, I agree with that. And I also think everything you do, there's like, get on the phone with customers and just like, try to learn from them. Just absolutely claw through your reviews, see what people say they like what they don't like, and try to tap when you're reading reviews try to tap into like, emotions that you see. And not just like comments about the product, but like, what are people saying about themselves, like, a guy looked at a deodorant brand where people were saying, like, I'm, I'm very active person, I live in a very hot environment. And this deodorant stood up to that, that tells you a sense of self that people are experiencing, right, they experience themselves as fitness people who are living in Texas, or whatever, and it's like hot all the time. And so they feel like they need a deodorant that can stand up to it, whatever. So I agree with all of that, and think that that kind of qualitative and quantitative information could be useful. The other thing that I would say is, if you are in a category that should have loyalty, right, so you're not the wallet example here. If you're in a category where people should be rebind, for you, and they're not that that one piece of information is all you need to know that something's wrong. And that you need to do so like in the example I gave of the water club, if people buy the wallet, the keychain and the tokens, but they just never come back and buy more tokens in their lives, even if they go to more national parks or whatever, something went wrong, that they're not as into the product as you think. And, and, and you need to figure out how to deliver that. More on that, you know, or, or problem solutions, the same thing, apparel is totally the same way, if somebody buys a shirt from you, maybe they don't return it, but they never come back again. You know, especially depending on the category and probably something went wrong there. And you need to be thinking about like what's going on, and that's where you get on the phone and talk to people and, and that's kind of jewelry

Trevor: 46:45

socks, like those are all you know, CPG anything and CPG falls under what he's suggesting. Right? It's like, figure out why that person is not coming back. It didn't taste good. They didn't feel sick, didn't fit right. tarnished quickly, whatever it is, figure that out. And fix that. For sure.

Andrew: 47:07

I love that. Yeah,

Trevor: 47:09

Andrew, what? I know we've I know, we've been chatting for quite some time. What's something that you're really hot on right now that you're noticing that a lot of brands are not focusing on?

Andrew: 47:21

I actually love this question, Trevor. And something I've asked people on my podcast a lot too, because I think almost everybody I've been around who's in a world like this is, has got stuff like that. They're just like noodling on some stuff at any given time. And so they they just have something the top of mind. So anyway, for me, it's it's new customer revenue versus returning customer revenue. I've mentioned it a few times it's conversation. But I think like, I'm at a point where like, I don't even know how to look at an E commerce business anymore without immediately going to their Shopify first time versus returning customer sales report. And looking at that, it's the first thing I look at, I don't even look at the homescreen anymore, honestly, unless I really want to see like somebody's on Shark Tank. And you want to see how many people showed up, right? You know, at that moment, or whatever, right, the live view. But otherwise, like, I just don't even I just don't even look at that main screen. Because I now just believe like that that breakdown is actually one of the fundamental things about DDC as a channel experience, is that you can see with clarity, your new customer revenue versus return customer revenue. And when you start doing this, you you will not be able to look at your business a different way anymore, which is really good. Your ad spend is like measuring the effectiveness of your ad spend doing that, as I see this all the time, people measure their ad spend as a as a number that's against their blended revenue. So they'll they'll say like, oh, I have a four m er, right, which by which they mean if I have $100 in revenue, I have $25 and spent blended for 41. Right? So revenue divided by spent. But like, for me, that's just not going to work because your ad spend is overwhelmingly aimed at acquiring new customers, if you're in DC for most brands, you know, obviously for the exception, your exception and measure the other way. But But starting to do that, and then actually forecasting everything about your business based off of that that cohort model forecast is just the key thing. I actually record I recorded an episode of my podcast in the day called there's no such thing as revenue. And it's entirely about this thing, because I now don't believe in DC. You know, obviously there is such a thing as revenue, but I just look at new customer revenue, returning customer revenue, I just don't look at it. But once you start doing that, you'll have all kinds of insights, you'll go wait a minute, why aren't people re buying my product or wait a minute my ad spend is not generating the return I thought it was or wait a minute, it's generating way more return than I thought it was this sudden I see all the time people are running triple whale or something. And it's telling them they're not making very much money but their actual new customer revenue is growing way faster than they expected and screw the attribution platform. are you generating new customer revenue if you are great. So that kind of thing. Is is just like, yeah, you start doing that you start developing that instinct and it will pay off massive Massive dividends in your business, I cannot recommend it an amazing yeah. What are some I love

Mark: 50:03

that suggestion that too because it requires a question beforehand, right, which is what is your goal? Right? What is the goal? What is the purpose of online advertising? It's to acquire new customers. So if you know what that goal is, and how do you measure that goal, right, and I think what you said summed it up perfectly, I think, right after iOS 14, happened, a lot of people shifted to that M er approach, which wasn't necessarily bad. And, and quite frankly, if your recurrent turning customer rate is 10%, then that probably works fine, right? If you have a high returning customer, right, and you have to start separating these two things out and understanding, hey, how do we grow new customers? Right? How do we actually grow the business in a profitable way? You just nailed it right on the head. And it but it requires those questions that you asked at the very beginning of the podcast or use, you know, you help brands answer, and that's like, what's the actual goal in the vision of this company? Is it to acquire a ton of new customers and grow? Is it to be very profitable, and just kind of just steady as you go? Like, the little stream that could or The Little Engine That Could, right? I mean, what are you what are you trying to accomplish? And not enough brands ask those questions at the beginning of their journey? Or when they're trying to do online advertising to begin with? What's the goal of doing online advertising? Right, is it? Is it just to grow at X percent? Or is it to also get eyes on your brand? Is there an overall arching theme here? Or are you just trying to like, grow and get more money? Like you said, people default to more money. But there's a there's a right way and a wrong way to do that, depending on what your goal and vision is?

Andrew: 51:44

That's right. Yeah. Yeah, I completely agree with even the NVR example you gave though, Mark, one thing I would say about that is, while it's true that it's not as big of a deal to see those separately, if you don't have much returning customer revenue, what else is a lot of people actually don't realize they don't have that much returning customer revenue, they don't realize how big of a problem that is in their business, if they're not thinking about them separately. And, and so like, even if you don't have much returning customer revenue, even if you are using a blended ner number, it's like, it's still really important that you see these as separate so that you can identify that issue in your business and think about what the implications of our of that are for your strategy going forward. And I've seen the other thing too, by the way, somebody does blended M er, and they actually have incredible amounts of returning customer revenue, like some of the highest I've ever seen, actually was like in one business with massive returning customer revenue. They just did not seem to realize it. And they were massively under spending on their customer acquisition because of that. Yeah, they were just leaving millions, millions of dollars on the table, because they just weren't acquiring customers, nearly aggressively. And we've seen

Trevor: 52:41

the same thing. Yeah. 100%. And what are some things that brands give me like a, you know, so So for you as somebody who's like, Hey, I can't look at a business any other way now? Okay, that's, that's something as you you know, however long you've been thinking about it, you've you've come up with some thoughts, some strategies, when you jump into a new business, what are some things a brand should be looking at? For to understand, like? I mean, obviously, every industry, depending on what their p&l looks like, you can't quite say what is success? Right? Obviously, we know you can't just give me a blanket statement of success. But can you give us some sort of like, what are some things that they should be looking at and looking for, when they start to do that? To help them make decisions? Is it can you even answer that question? Like, what are you looking at when you jump in? If I already, you know, hey, I've got a jewelry business. I need Andrew Ferris, you know, give me give me just like a quick breakdown of what you're going to do if you were to jump into the business.

Andrew: 53:46

Yeah, so the first thing I would ask is, what your goals are. And I would try to help you sort that out as much as possible. And then the second thing that I would start to do once we've got those is to try to figure out what your business looks like at those goals. So just sort of imagine that future if we're going to draw my goal as a consultant is to draw is to take you from point A to the X on the treasure map. So if you tell me what the treasure is, then I'm gonna now need to know like kind of where that like, if you tell me what the treasure is, I'm gonna tell you where it is on the map and what it looks like essentially, when you get there, this analogy is getting bad very fast, but but you get the idea, right? We need to identify that x and that treasure seriously before we can possibly draw the dotted lines to it on the map. And so then then the next question is drawing the dotted lines to it. And that comes down to for me, forecasting the business and starting to look at and say like, Okay, you want to get this big this fast? Well, how much ad spend do you need to accomplish that how many new customers do you need to accomplish that? How often are those customers need to come back to accomplish that? What is your contribution margin on those customers when you acquire them and and what is your capitalization and all of those kinds of things? Because that will then help me determine how we should what levers we should or what targets we should set in our space. And both the volume of spam and the efficiency of that spend, if if you've, you know, and if you're working with me, it's because you want to spend to get there, like you're not working with me to give you an organic strategy that somebody else is to do that I will, you will waste your time with. In fact, I won't take your money to do that, because I will blow it. So. So that's, that ends up being that ends up being a lot of the front end. And what I ended up doing is like a month to two months, and up getting clarification on those and then trying to spit out by the end of it. Essentially, a forecast that's cohort based, so we're looking at that LT we're building the forecast off of not just like, How much money do we think we'll get? I don't know, if we grew 20%. Last year, maybe we'll go 22. This year, what I want to say is, if I'm gonna acquire 1000 new customers next month, how much those customers gonna be worth to me over time. Well, that's actually like a forecast double. I mean, you'll never get it. Right, exactly. But it's you can forecast that within a way that's intelligent, and then start to think about that over time. Build that that actually determines another thing which people don't think about, which is like, How much am I able to spend on objects in my business? How much can I spend on SGA. And my business, I think that one of the great efficiencies in E commerce is that you can scale an E commerce business, there's massive economies of scale, and you're in your OP X, and you're in your SGA. Right. So the simple example I always use is that it costs basically the same amount of money to send an email to 1000 people as it does to send it to a million people. And so the graphic designer hours, there are the are the same, you have to pay a little more for CLEVEO at that point when you leave when you've spent more, but it's not it's not nearly commensurate with the value increase. And so, so that percentage of your OP X that goes into that can shrink drastically. And I would say for most ecommerce businesses, the number you want to be targeting is like 15% or less of your revenue in SGA. And if you can do that, then that creates a massive efficiency really quickly give everybody who's listening SGMA tell everyone what that means. Yes, sales general administrative, so it's basically your your, your fixed costs in your business related to salaries, salaries, general administrative rights, so salaries, rent, if you're paying that anywhere, and then I would put things like for an E commerce business, I would put like, sort of flat software costs, those kinds of things as well. Anything that's not a variable cost in your business that's going to do that. So yeah, that portion of your p&l should be pretty low. Whereas, you know, think about software business, it's gonna be a lot higher, because you're gonna have to pay a bunch of engineering dollars and those kinds of things. So anyway, so the the, that's, to me, one of the great one of the great efficiencies. So that's, that's what I'm thinking about. Now, we can actually build your p&l, which is like this dotted line I'm talking about essentially is a big part of it is saying like, okay, next year, this is that, and that gives us a target profit margin at the bottom of your p&l of x. And that x can be a lot of different things, depending on your goals, right? It might be 5%, might be 20%, it might be negative 10%. Right? Who knows. But, but, but that's, we can start to do that based on those things. Because now we've, we've calculated the value of a customer to us how much we're willing to spend to acquire that customer. And somewhere in there, I might have breezed over it. But somewhere in there, we've also calculated how much all the variable costs associated with selling that product are, for example, your cost of goods, your three PL all those kinds of things, you know, your processing fees, etc. Even your credit card fees, right, like the 3%, Shopify is gonna take all your purchases or 2%, or whatever. So. So that's, that's what I ended up doing a lot of, and then from there, after all that work is done. We're developing creative and trying to execute against the best practices and meta ads and that sort

Trevor: 58:26

of thing. I love that dude. Thank you so much, Andrew, this is yes, I hope that. Yeah, I mean, it's, I always love to, you know, what I found on a lot of podcasts that I've listened to is people talk about what they're doing and all the success that they're having, and how they, but a lot of people don't break down the process, right? Because you're talking where you're at today, but it took you how long to get there. You know, so I always love to kind of break that down a little bit more simply. So somebody who's just getting started or somebody who has been stuck, can be like, Oh, okay, cool. Here's some quick actionable steps that I can jump in and start to get to what Andrew was talking about here. I may not be where he's going to be in the future. But I can get 50% of the way there 60% of the way or even 10% better than what I'm doing right now. So I appreciate that. Well, Andrew, do this has been an amazing conversation. I don't want to take up too much more of your time because we were going on an hour here but what where? Where can where can people find you?

Andrew: 59:29

Yeah, man. I mentioned a couple places and yeah, it's been great conversation, Trevor, I appreciate it so much. And Mark, same. My podcast is probably the best place to start. If you liked this conversation and you want to follow up with me then you maybe like hearing from me there more. I mentioned a couple episodes. I'll kick those to you if you wanna put him in the show notes or something Trevor? So that people can maybe start there. But then I'm on Twitter at Andrew J. Ferris FERS, so if you want to follow me there, that's fine. The other thing I'm I'm actually not taking on clients right now but but I'm actually considering putting together to the point that he's mentioned that I'll call like, a meta ads bootcamp where I'd kind of get together for a day and try to put to take take some brand owners really and that sort of like, mid seven figures space who are trying, you know, low mid seven figures, it actually could be lower than that. But we're really trying to take that journey up towards 2040 50 million. And say, like, let's, let's like, let's like solve a lot of this stuff that I'm talking about in one day. So what about how do I set that target correctly? How do I think about attribution and then actually to walk away with like, a forecast in place, a target in place in a one day meeting, basically, an intensive with it would be only three or four brands, probably I would invite. We'll see if I actually deliver on this. But this is what I'm thinking of. And, and then also, like with a creative strategy, and a media buying strategy in place, so it'd be a deep dive, it'll be an intense day. And you'll be tired afterwards. But you know, have some dinner and drink together as well afterwards. But But working on getting that set up right now, if you're interested in that, go to ajF growth.com. And send me an email, there's a form there. It says service you're interested in just put other and then just send me an email saying are interested in that. I think it's gonna be awesome. But basically, to do exactly, you just said, Trevor, which is like, Hey, maybe I got 15% of this. But I'm really I want to try to get closer to 80 to 90% of this or more, you know, and so I'm looking for a couple of folks I my favorite stage of business is like, is that like sort of low mid seven figures who were trying to get to 20. Plus, I just love working with entrepreneurs who are like building their own thing. That's so much more fun to me than some monster hunter million dollar business or whatever. So. So, yeah, that's, that's, that's what I'm talking about putting together so amazing podcast and the AGF growth.com. And go go reach out to me there and I'll put that together. Cool.

Trevor: 1:01:49

Well, everybody go fall, Andrew, this has been an amazing conversation, such a practitioner in this space. And I've listened to your podcast, and it's so actionable. So I love it. Man. Thank you so much for joining us. And thank you to all the listeners who follow us every single week. We really, really appreciate you guys and we will see you next week. Thank you so much for listening to the unstoppable Marketer Podcast. Please go rate and subscribe the podcast whether it's good or bad, we want to hear from you. Because we always want to make this podcast better. If you want to get in touch with me or give me any direct feedback. Please go follow me and get in touch with me. I am at the Trevor Crump on both Instagram and Tiktok thank you and we will see you next week.