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The Unstoppable Marketer®
Trevor Crump and Mark Goldhardt bring you quick marketing and entrepreneurial tips, tricks, and trends for DTC business owners, entrepreneurs, and marketers. These are lessons they've learned through the years of being right in the thick of scaling dozens of businesses. Whether you have an established business looking to grow, just starting your business journey, or trying to become a digital marketer, this marketing podcast will not let you down.
The Unstoppable Marketer®
92. If You Can't Stop The Scroll You Have Nothing...
Join us for a thought-provoking discussion on the profound influence of social media on personal identities, illustrated by Jason Tatum's emulation of iconic athletes. We dive into the phenomenon where younger generations mimic online personas, sometimes at the cost of developing their unique identities. From TikTok-induced pseudo-Tourette syndrome in Germany to how media has shaped our own language and aspirations, this conversation will leave you reflecting on the pervasive power of cultural trends and popular figures.
Finally, we explore the art of storytelling in marketing, drawing insights from the lives of legendary actors Marlon Brando and Daniel Day-Lewis. We'll discuss the importance of taking breaks, the toll intense roles can take on actors like Heath Ledger, and the need for authentic marketing hooks. Using the metaphor of fly fishing, we illustrate how marketers must adapt their strategies to current trends and audience behaviors. Join us for an insightful episode packed with marketing wisdom, compelling storytelling, and a lighthearted fishing analogy to tie it all together.
Please connect with Trevor on social media. You can find him anywhere @thetrevorcrump
Yo, what's going on everybody? Welcome to the Unstoppable Marketer Podcast, with me, as always, mark Goldhart. How are you Doing? Great, sir, what I said, how are you? And then you said doing great. And I said good sir, I hadn't finished.
Speaker 2:And then you said you were already answering my question back to you.
Speaker 1:No, no, I was like I was calling you a good sir. Oh, you were saying my question back to you. No, no, I was like I was calling you a good sir oh, you were saying how are you good sir? Kind of like me saying how are you mark? But instead of saying mark, you're good I'm a good sir.
Speaker 2:Yeah, oh nice, yeah, so nothing yeah it's been a minute since we've podcast.
Speaker 1:Sorry, everybody it has yeah, it has been two weeks where we haven't had an episode and I set a goal to do one every single week and we missed it.
Speaker 2:That's an average though.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that is true. I set a goal to do 52 episodes in a year and we will. We will.
Speaker 2:Sometimes you gotta play to the average.
Speaker 1:We've been known Miss a week do two.
Speaker 2:Yeah, sometimes you got to play to the average.
Speaker 1:We've been known to take summers somewhat off, and part of the reason why was because it's always harder to get guests on in the summer. Yeah, we've got families and vacations and sometimes the last thing you want to do is come podcast. But here's the deal. I just think, as you've noticed, as people who are listening there probably noticed, we have done more podcasts solo.
Speaker 2:Have we.
Speaker 1:Well, we've started to introduce more. What's our ratio? I don't know. You know my goal is I think I've gotten a lot of feedback that people like when you and me just jam sometimes. Just jam.
Speaker 1:Because I was always under the impression, just through my own thoughts, that people always want to guest and then I started to notice that I would get more personal comments, like people who I just like am walking around and I see or talk to like oh I love that episode where you and mark just like broke that thing down, oh really, so it was less of us like diving into found. Not that people don't like the founder operator guests that we have on but I would would love to, as we're saying this, right now.
Speaker 2:Thanks for all the support, everybody.
Speaker 1:Please, you know this is just anecdotal feedback I've received from people who either DM me from time to time or text me or whatever.
Speaker 2:We just want to provide value.
Speaker 1:We just want to be here for you.
Speaker 2:Yeah. If you don't like us, we'll just we'll bring in other people, just we'll bring in other people.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we'll bring another co-host. We'll bring on a third co-host.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you, let us know what you want.
Speaker 1:Let the people decide.
Speaker 2:We are a democracy.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we are a democracy here at the Unstoppable Marketer, but we're excited to be back. Thank you for all those. We just wanted to give you guys something to wait for for two weeks to just be so stoked. So this is our most downloaded episode of the year.
Speaker 2:That's right, we just wanted to create a little tension.
Speaker 1:Yeah, a little tension, a little FOMO.
Speaker 2:What's going on? Yeah, a little suspense.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly. Maybe we'll do a giveaway at the end of this. Who knows? Yeah, exactly. Maybe we'll do a giveaway at the end of this. Who knows?
Speaker 2:yeah, maybe maybe we should do it. Should we do a giveaway?
Speaker 1:we should start doing some fun stuff like that what should we give away? We can give away lore jewelry. Let's give away some jewelry, we can give some bestie swag, some bestie swag yeah, I'm ripping the newest, the newest piece right here that has yet to come out.
Speaker 2:I guess we could. I'm ripping the newest piece right here that has yet to come out.
Speaker 1:I guess we could reach out to some prior guests too. For what For a giveaway?
Speaker 2:Oh, like have them say hey, Mountain Ops, yeah, we can throw up some recognition.
Speaker 1:Maybe we should start doing that. Maybe we should start doing like, if somebody comes on, we're like, hey, you gotta bring a gift for the audience.
Speaker 2:It'd be cool to do it live like a radio show you have to call in.
Speaker 1:We could do an IG live, like we could set up the IG live right here while the podcast is going.
Speaker 2:Number 10 gets free tickets to Lollapalooza.
Speaker 1:I haven't done an IG live in a really long time, so we could do something like that.
Speaker 2:I mean people should be doing them.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So you should be doing them. I guess I should be doing them too, yeah.
Speaker 1:Maybe we'll do that next time I can do that. That'd be fun. That'd be kind of fun.
Speaker 2:We'll brainstorm that one but you gotta download the episode.
Speaker 1:We'll put a little more thought into it that's the problem, though, is I can't go in and see. You can't see who downloads it, like the analytics doesn't give you that you can see how many downloads, so you'd like you'd have to figure out how we do that giveaway it'd have to be live or it'd have to be.
Speaker 2:You set up a bestie quiz yeah, we do something live.
Speaker 1:It's like, hey, you have to be on live and maybe you go rate the podcast or something like that, because I can see if you rate it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't know review yeah, we'll figure it out.
Speaker 1:We'll get something, we'll figure it out but I think there's room for stuff like that and in the world of marketing is to incentivize people, you know I think so three things, yeah, three things I know it was a little overplayed back in 2018, but I think there's room for it to come back um, I think it was overplayed, but only because it became so.
Speaker 2:What's the word I'm looking for. It became industrialized in a way, it became stale well, oh yeah it's like it wasn't fun like comment yeah three tag, three friends and follow.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it was all the same it became such a template format.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't think it was fun like giveaways are became such a templated format. Yeah, I don't think it was fun. Like giveaways are fun, like you can have fun with it. Yeah, and I think ultimately we're in. I think the 2020s are the 1980s, the 2020s are the 1980s.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:Okay, people want fun. Yeah, you know, girls just want to have fun.
Speaker 1:They want to have fun. They want to have fun yeah maybe, maybe it's like maybe I don't read whoever leaves the funniest, most witty, like uh review, yeah, or something like that gets the free whatever. Yeah, see that's fun. Yeah, the free whatever.
Speaker 2:See, that's fun, because the 80s was fun.
Speaker 1:I was born in the 80s. I was born in the 80s. I lived there for two years. And it was a blast for those two years. I was there for half a year.
Speaker 2:That six months was awesome for you. That six months was phenomenal, some of the best times of your life. Def Leppard was at its peak. Probably Just kidding, I don't know 1989.
Speaker 1:Def Leppard was probably not at its peak. I bet they were on the like down.
Speaker 2:But if you look at the 80s right, that's like Big Hair Fun Kiss was at its peak.
Speaker 1:But then the 90s comes in and it's like grungy, I think that, and dark, I think late 90s all these people you're talking about are declining, whereas you're having maybe like a nirvana that is peaking.
Speaker 2:Right, but it feels like maybe the it feels like people are looking for fun.
Speaker 1:I think so too.
Speaker 2:Right, covid was depressing. The world is kind of depressing in general Right now. Yeah, yeah, and so yeah, I think people want some fun, like people don't want to be depressed on social media.
Speaker 1:I think so too. Speaking of social media, have you seen this clip of the Boston Celtics win the championship NBA playoffs? They're the National.
Speaker 2:Basketball Association Super lame finals.
Speaker 1:Championship.
Speaker 2:Championship.
Speaker 1:Jason Tatum. There's these viral videos going around about him mimicking what every other champion has done or said over the past, like 15 years, including a kanye west quote. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's like uh, what is that quote?
Speaker 2:yeah, the meme for those who don't know it was jason tatum is everyone but jason. Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.
Speaker 1:So my the question is we were talking about this earlier before we were recording which is is jason tatum, so what he's essentially what doing? Like just to give you some examples here. It's like you know, there's a clip of a clip of Steph Curry after they just won a championship I can't remember which one they say like. He says like, what are they going to say now, as he's like spraying champagne, I have a sneeze that's coming on. I don't know when it's going to hit, but it's very, very close to hitting. Do you get?
Speaker 2:the hiccups too.
Speaker 1:I had hiccups last night.
Speaker 2:Really, do you know how to get rid of?
Speaker 1:them. I mean, I've heard of ways to get rid of them.
Speaker 2:I have not had hiccups in probably 15 years.
Speaker 1:Really Like never not had hiccups in probably 15 years, really like never.
Speaker 2:Just for like 20 seconds like I'll get a small start and then it's, and then I can get it to stop immediately how you have to. I'm trying to teach my wife to do this but she just laughs trying to do it. She just I don't know, she won't take my my teachings. You have to suck in three times so the second it happens, you just gotta really interesting I did it.
Speaker 1:I've just done that naturally for 15 years, but then uh did you just do that and it worked once and then, or did?
Speaker 2:I just did it, naturally, I don't know why, like okay, you know, like how, when you get too much carbonation, you're kind of like yeah. I just started doing that whenever I tried to hip-hop.
Speaker 1:Every time I get the hiccups I always worry about.
Speaker 2:there was a guy who and then you hold a breath, by the way.
Speaker 1:Second, three times hold a breath let it go, it's gone. There was a guy who got had the hiccups, like got the hiccups once and it never went away. You heard about that guy. I think he's on Ripley's Believe it or Not. Remember when they used to do those Ripley's Believe it or Not shows.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but apparently is it Barry Sanders, or is it Bo Jackson, I don't know. There's an athlete that this has happened to and he won't make public appearances anymore.
Speaker 1:Really, yeah, yeah, well, don me on that, I'll find it, we'll, we'll put a post out. Well, every time I get the hiccups, I'm always like am I that guy? Like am I gonna be that guy? Because he was just talking, like I listened to the interview. He's like, yeah, the last thing I remember is I ate a subway sandwich and then the next day I knew like yeah, something's gonna cause a lifelong okay, anyway jason tatum social media. Let's tie this back okay okay, he's, he.
Speaker 1:He's copying these things that they're saying or doing. He's posing the same way that Kobe Bryant posed when the Lakers won a championship. He's doing all these things and so, yes, the meme is Jason Tatum is everyone but himself. So the question is, is he copying these people willy nilly? Or has social media infected so many minds, especially younger minds, that, just like social media has always been a part of their life? Versus millennials, it became a part of our life. What? When we were like 18 to 25. So is it just? Is it the fact that social media is just taking the personality away from people? Cause they don't have their own identities, they take on other people's identities yeah.
Speaker 2:Um, it's a good question. I guess my hot take is like no one's really original. Anyways, you know what I mean or, if they are, they're not willing to be so, if you take we talked about this a little bit just with people's speech patterns Everybody is copying something. Babies copy their parents, teenagers copy the media, and so is he doing it. I guess the question is, did he copy all of these lines consciously, right, and rehearse them and then, like when he won, he repeated all those lines.
Speaker 1:Oh, that was like way cool.
Speaker 2:I want to say that too, or is he also? Or is that just what was ingrained in him? Because that's what he grew up on Right. He grew up on social media watching Steph Curry, because what he's only 25, right, 24, 25?
Speaker 1:Something like that probably he's young curry because of what?
Speaker 2:he's only 25, right, 24, 25, something like that, probably young. So you know we're not we're not talking about. I mean, I know he's an adult, yeah, but he's still a young guy, yeah yeah, I don't want to go too hard on him, but it is a good question just in terms of what is the impact of he's 26? Okay, what's the impact of social media on personalities?
Speaker 2:yeah well, there was that studio in germany where a bunch of people started going to the doctor with tourette syndrome. Did you hear about that? No, so in germany a bunch of people started copying a TikToker and they started having quote symptoms of Tourette's. But the doctors were like you don't have Tourette's, they were just giving themselves Tourette's. They were just giving themselves these tics Because they were copying what? They were seeing on social media.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think you're right about that, because I grew up watching like I always wanted to be either a professional snowboarder or a professional wakeboarder, like from probably the age like 11 to 18, that was like my goal in life and hence you had the bleach tips. I did it all, but I watched every snowboard movie. I watched every, you know, and I hung around snowboarders and skaters and so like, even today, like my lingo is very much what their lingo was. You know, I use dudes, I use stoked.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but most people do. I use our generation. I don't think that's unique, though that's what I mean. Yeah, I think most people yeah, our generation grew up with Tony Hawk Pro Skater.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Which might be one of the best video games, best game ever. Of all time right.
Speaker 1:Maybe next to Blitz NFL Blitz yeah maybe next to NFL Blitz?
Speaker 2:Yeah, but I didn't. I grew up skateboarding a lot. I don't know if I was really in the skate crowd a whole lot, because I also grew up playing a lot of sports. But everyone just said stoked and dude, and yeah, slay yeah, it's very interesting.
Speaker 1:So none of us have basically none of us have our own personalities anymore, but I also do notice this when I create content.
Speaker 2:Maybe we never did. Have you ever wondered if you just are gonna wake up one day and everything was a dream?
Speaker 1:shutter islands time but I I noticed this with content creation. For me, you know, like I've gone through these like big ebbs and flows from a as a person who creates content is at first, when I wasn't, when I wasn't doing it with my face, I was doing more carousel, like information stuff. That was very easy for me to be myself, like I just kind of cause, I'm just writing stuff that I know, you know, and then I'm designing it with the little design skills I had.
Speaker 1:But then the moment I started showing my face, I was very much inspired by three or four creators who were doing that, and then I got to a point where I started noticing that I was almost copying what they were doing, and so that was like one of the biggest catalysts to get me off of consuming good content creators content because I I can't not try to be like them like I.
Speaker 1:Just mentally I'm like, oh, this is how I should do it too, and it's like that's exactly what they did. This podcast episode is brought to you by bestie. Bestie is the first ever AIpowered post-purchase survey platform. Bestie is revolutionizing the way you understand your customers. Are you uncertain about what motivates your customers to choose your products, unsure how customers are discovering your brand, or which marketing channels are most effective in driving sales to your website? Or do you know how long it takes your customers to make a purchase decision? Look no further, because Bestie is the ultimate solution for you. With Bestie's cutting edge AI feature, you can effortlessly create comprehensive surveys in just a matter of seconds, without the need for any of your valuable time. And that is not all. Bestie's automated insights will regularly provide you with actionable information week over week, giving you the tools to drive your business forward.
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Speaker 2:Marlon Brando is Yo Tal. Do you know who Marlon Brando is?
Speaker 1:He's uh One of the Do you know who he is?
Speaker 2:I don't actually. I just heard his name. No, marlon Brando. He's like one of the most famous actors of all time. In what Name a movie? The Godfather, the Godfather.
Speaker 1:What character?
Speaker 2:Apocalypse Now.
Speaker 1:You don't know who Marlon Brando is, who in Godfathers? I know the Godfather I've never seen Apocalypse.
Speaker 2:He's the guy.
Speaker 1:He's like the, he's the main, okay, the main guy.
Speaker 2:So yeah, I know the leader, the mob guy.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I know who that is, he's the guy. Yeah.
Speaker 2:I don't know, I can't do the voice, but as he got older he kind of became pretty. I don't know. I define it as embittered. He was disenfranchised with acting in general, like he didn't think he was that great. He didn't think he was.
Speaker 2:No, he thought he was great, I think, but he started just saying things like you know, whatever, like acting's, whatever, and it's bad for you, or there's a quote somewhere, I'll find it. But he, he basically says like you're always putting on a face, a face like you're always pretending to be other people. Yeah, and I've always wondered with actors, just so, like to go with what you're saying, I've always wondered if maybe the hardest part about being an actor is if you're always pretending to be other people. Wouldn't that take a toll on your psyche?
Speaker 1:Dude, it'd kill me. It'd kill me. Like I said, it's play, but if you're doing it as a job, you're doing it a lot Well and if you want to do it, if you want to be the best actor, you've got to take it more serious than a 9-to-5 job.
Speaker 2:You'd have to, which is why Daniel Day-Lewis, who is also maybe considered the greatest actor of all time one of them, I mean, he has the most Academy Awards, if I remember right he's a method actor. But if you watch his, if you look at his acting career, daniel david lewis, you know because he was in the last of the mohicans and gangs of new york, and you know, more recently, lincoln, and then he did that like seamstress one I don't know what that one was called, but he takes time off like he goes all in on these characters, method acts. Like he becomes that character, there will Will Be Blood. Did you ever see that one?
Speaker 1:No.
Speaker 2:You never saw that one.
Speaker 1:I will drink your milkshake, no, but I saw Gangs of New York and Last of the Mohicans.
Speaker 2:But he takes tons of time off.
Speaker 1:He'll go all in on these roles and I wonder if he does that.
Speaker 2:I don't know I'm just curious, I I wonder if he does that. I don't know, I'm just curious. I wonder if he does that because he goes so far deep into being this character, this person, that he kind of has to step away and recalibrate for a year or two, regroup himself?
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, and that's like the. I know no one's ever like totally come out and said exactly why Heath Ledger died, but they say that he was.
Speaker 2:So yeah, I've heard that I don't know if Into that Watching the interviews with his fellow actors. I don't know if that one's totally true.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I don't know either. Like I said, nobody's come out. That's what I think people have assumed, like he became the Joker and then, yeah, died.
Speaker 2:Yeah, maybe, but RIP, but yeah, just interesting. So I wonder again, like everyone's imitating everything At all times, we're imitating something, yeah, so how true? I mean this goes into philosophical points about free agency and will, and if it even exists, yeah, or are we just robots? But yeah we don't have to get that deep today.
Speaker 1:No, let's talk about Speaking of robots though. Ah, here we go.
Speaker 2:I have something about robots.
Speaker 1:Oh, I thought you were going to. Somehow you always have a great idea, a great way of saying. Speaking of robots, marketing is da-da-da-da-da.
Speaker 2:Well, speaking of robots, yeah, my autopilot function in my Tesla is gone today. Today's the last day no more autopilot. Why? Because I had the 30 day free trial or like the full self-driving autopilot.
Speaker 1:I'm not going to renew it. What did you think?
Speaker 2:It's a fun party trick, but it made me remember the conversation we've had in the past about what is I think the clinical term is called highway hypnosis, when you drive places and you don't even realize where you've been for two hours and you wake up and all of a sudden, you're in the parking lot and you're like what You're like uh-oh how did I get here?
Speaker 1:Did I fall asleep? Did I hit somebody? What was?
Speaker 2:I thinking about. Did I run a red light? Yeah, yeah, and social media and the parallel there. Right, you don't go into full highway hypnosis because you're just constantly being stimulated on social media, so you're not necessarily like I don't know where I've been for two hours or like what I was even thinking about, but you do find yourself in rabbit holes where you're like ah what am I doing Like? Why am I just impulsively swiping at this?
Speaker 2:point and, as we've talked with a lot of people in social media and marketing, and as we've talked with a lot of people in social media and marketing, everyone right now is trying to figure out how to A storytell, but also, how do we capture attention again, yes, because capturing attention is becoming harder and harder and harder.
Speaker 1:Yes, this is a good point, and you're hearing a lot of people talk about the importance of storytelling, but they're forgetting a piece of the puzzle of how storytelling doesn't really matter unless you can get them to listen to the story, and I think that there's a problem there?
Speaker 2:There is a problem, yeah. So how do you draw people in? And I think one of the biggest questions that I hear is well, maybe it's not a question, this is just me diagnosing problems that companies have, or maybe the way they interpret what a hook is or isn't. So a lot of people say, oh, it's got to be super organic give us an example of what that means a super organic is oh, it's just got to be.
Speaker 2:Well, it's interpreted in two ways. It's either it's just got to be real and authentic, yeah. So face, you know, yeah, mirror camera, somebody talking, trying to be organic, go going through the emotions. Right, it's got to fit within the social media feed. It's got to look like a natural post, yes, okay. Or it's got to mimic some kind of trend or some kind of organic trend.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So that's what I think most people interpret, would you agree?
Speaker 1:A hook. An organic looking hook yeah Native.
Speaker 2:Native, that term was a very big buzzword in 2018.
Speaker 1:Native advertising ugc. Yeah, how do you make this look?
Speaker 2:like it's not an ad, but it is.
Speaker 1:Yeah, ads that are the problem is the and that was that, like here's, a really important thing about hooks is, um, not all hooks are created equal within time. What I mean by that is that what you're talking about is this native natural hook was something that was actually really good in 2020, 2021, because not very many people were doing that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it's still not good or bad. I think that's what people. I think the biggest miss on companies parts is that they're trying to follow certain templates without reading the waters. And what I mean by reading the waters and speaking of hooks is you don't fly fish no but have you gone fishing?
Speaker 2:well, speaking of hooks, there's a lot of hooks in fishing, right, lures, lures and anglers, fly fishermen and women, the good ones. I'm not great, I'm okay. Right, you have to figure out what the hatch is, so it's seasonal, like you can't just use the same hook. See, this is time. Yeah, I like it. Yeah, you can't use the same lure or the same fly in august as you, as you can in february, so for example, we got hopper season coming up.
Speaker 2:That's when all the grasshoppers and hoppers right come out. So at my cabin it's a small stream with native cutthroat. They don't get very big, but it's beautiful fun fishing and right now there's no hoppers up there, so like if I'm throwing a hopper, like I'm not going to catch anything.
Speaker 2:The fish aren't going to bite.
Speaker 2:So what I have to do is you have to go down to the creek, you have to pull out a rock and see what the hatches are.
Speaker 2:So if you know the lifestyle of insects right, like a lot of them lay their eggs in the streams and the rivers, they hatch into nymphs and then they eventually pop out as the flies Like it's like a mayfly, for example and so you can look under those rocks and identify what the nymphs are, and so then you can use whatever that fly would be and then use what's called a dropper. So you tie another little piece of line with a little nymph hook at the bottom and that's called a dropper setup. So you got to identify what's actually working in the season and what the fish are eating. So it's not a perfect, you know it's not a perfect parallel for marketing, but I think it's a good parallel in the sense that too many people said, oh, it's hopper season, like it's organic season, let's just use UGC and sure, like that's part of your arsenal. But like the great, the great fishermen out there, the great fly fishermen right, they have a box full of different flies.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:It's not just one or two flies. They have a whole box full of flies and they can identify what kind of fly they need to use on any given day.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and they can identify what kind of fly they need to use on any given day. Yeah, I like the metaphor.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that's great you know what's also interesting about really great fly fishermen. No, what is Well, the ones that catch a lot understand that most people identify fly fishing as like a dry fly sitting on top of the water and a fish coming up to it right, yes, sitting on top of the water and a fish coming up to it. Right, yes, but the great fishermen know that almost all of the fish diet happens underwater, on the nymphs that are floating through.
Speaker 1:Oh, okay.
Speaker 2:So if fish are always eating under the water but you're only aiming on top of the water, you're going to miss 80% of your opportunities, so the great ones. That's why euro style right now, if anyone wants to look it up is popular because you can catch a lot more fish when you get good at it. Interesting shout out to uh, gilbert troli he's a utah guy, we'll bring him on the podcast.
Speaker 1:Whoever listens to this podcast will be thrilled.
Speaker 2:I follow him. He's phenomenal. But the point being is they know that, hey, the fish are underwater and we got to meet them where they are and also provide them something that they're going to be interested in. And so most people get stuck on fly fishing. Like beginners, they're just using one or two flies and like, oh, I'm not catching a lot. And marketers do the exact same thing. They get stuck in one type of hook. Yeah, without trying to figure out, well, most of the attention is under the water.
Speaker 1:So what if we talk about?
Speaker 2:We're doing surface level.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so to keep this conversation going and to make it valuable here, what are some things that you do to identify if a hook is working good? What would you view as a good hook? And we're talking organic videos, and we're also talking paid videos here yeah you know, like you, there's hooks for both. What are some things you're looking at from a paid perspective?
Speaker 2:well, we like to look at hook rate, okay or hold rate. Explain what that means basically, are people paying attention to your ad after within? You know what's the five second hold rate or three second hold rate. That's how you know if people stopped and watched. Yeah, but right after the hook, right. There's something that also happens with fly fishing is you have the hook and they go for it, but you still have to set the hook, which is drawing the fish in.
Speaker 2:So it's you got a lot more work to do besides just what fly or lure you're using.
Speaker 1:For sure.
Speaker 2:Same thing with marketing. So you have the hold rate.
Speaker 1:Yep.
Speaker 2:Are they taking the hook, but then what are you doing to reel it in? Yeah and that's the storytelling that's the selling yeah, but you're not. You don't have to sell in the hook yeah I think that's where people get mistake. You're not trying to necessarily tell a story or lure the whole fish in in three seconds yeah you're just trying to say, hey, what are people interested?
Speaker 1:in and how do I catch their attention? Yeah, I do think a lot of people are getting so caught up in like how do I sell them and let them know exactly what they're going to get? In these first three seconds. You know, here are three ways I've lost weight.
Speaker 2:Yep.
Speaker 1:You know that's very salesy and a hook that worked really good, however, many years ago. But now that kind of stuff, you see, is so overplayed that it's not hooking people or setting the hook either. That's right, right.
Speaker 2:And you have different buyers too, right? So like you have different people in different sales cycles and you have different buyers too, right? So like you have different people in different sales cycles and so static imagery, which is very direct and like you're just selling something, works to the right people who are ready to buy it and they're hungry for it, but for people that might be a little bit more difficult, that aren't hungry.
Speaker 2:More at the top of the funnel, more at the top of the funnel, as some might call it. I know people. I know the funnel might be outdated in terms of the actual consumer journey.
Speaker 1:But when we say top of funnel we mean more. So people who are less ready to buy like, more inclined and ready to buy what you're selling, versus people who are not.
Speaker 2:Yes, and top funnel is people.
Speaker 1:They might not know who you are, whether that means they don't know who you are, or that they even have the problem. Exactly, exactly.
Speaker 2:Yep, and so you can't educate them without actually making them care about what you're doing.
Speaker 1:Totally.
Speaker 2:And so a hook can be visually stimulating right, it can be something they're interested in. It can be literally thousands of different things, but everyone focuses on one thing oh, organic. So we're going to do ugc over and over again, yeah, and it's starting to die, so why not? So, like you have to diversify, you got to diversify your fly box. Yeah, you got to get different flies in there yeah, I was.
Speaker 1:I was talking to, uh, leo olson, who we've had on the podcast before he's in. He's a master storyteller, um, great hook artist, you know he's. He's good at all of the above. He's helped several brands make lots and lots of money and he's helped several people build their personal brands. And a couple things he's talked to me about before has been have been you can do a hook doesn't always have to be the words you're saying.
Speaker 1:A hook can be something that you do visually or something that you do from an editing perspective. Obviously, what you say should be interesting enough too, but there's something that can stop somebody's you know, stop you in your tracks, based off of hey, what? Why is that person standing that way? Or why, why did that cut split screen all of a sudden? Or I mean there, there's several different visual types of hooks that you can test and do. Um, as well as the other thing he said has been very interesting is when people, when people have a good enough story to tell, sometimes just starting into the story, rather than these like here are seven ways, or here's how I lost something, or here you know like giving a synopsis and then going into it.
Speaker 1:It's more so, just like.
Speaker 2:Well, this goes back to like the fireside chats.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Like the most interesting stories you hear in your life are intimate conversations you have with other people generally.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you'll never believe what happened to me yesterday. Yeah.
Speaker 1:That is kind of like a gotcha hook a little bit, but it is, but More so. Like, dude, yesterday I almost got hit by this car. Yeah, I was walking down the street, blah blah, and then you go into that story, right, you know, and oftentimes those like fireside moments are very relatable. You know like, oh, I've almost gotten hit by a car, oh, that's great, you know. You know like, oh, I've almost gotten hit by a car, oh, that's great, you know. So, yeah, he, he just says like sometimes when you just go into the story, right, and you just like that person is almost the person watching it, it's almost like, oh, do I need to be interested in this?
Speaker 2:this person, just, he's not giving me this three second synopsis of what's going on, it's just well, a good example of that, like you said, just to reiterate, is you could say yesterday I almost got hit by a car. This is what happened. Yeah, right, that's kind of putting the and there's a template out there. It's like climax, yeah, storytelling, and then climb like so you're actually putting the climax at the beginning, yeah, but jumping right into the story would be yesterday I was walking down the street and I almost got hit by a car. Then this happened. Yeah, yep. So I like that because, depending on your audience, one, one or the other might work.
Speaker 1:Totally.
Speaker 2:And that's part of, and that's the beauty of testing, like it's never been easier to test different kinds of hooks and yes, I know things change a lot, but human behavior and psychology isn't changing that rapidly no, no, but what changes is?
Speaker 2:people get used to the what hook is out there, exactly like people get used to which by the way, there, exactly Like people get used to which, by the way, also happens with fishing right, if you have too many fishermen, go to one spot. The fish eventually get spooked and they just sit at the bottom. They're not interested anymore.
Speaker 1:Yeah yeah, for sure.
Speaker 2:Because it's like, okay, fool me once.
Speaker 1:but yeah, I mean this just goes back to. I mean I like exactly, I mean it's funny. I didn't. I don't think us talking about this whole social media Jason Tatum thing, like I didn't, that was more just like a funny discussion. But what's interesting is we're kind of going like that conversations to me coming a little bit more full circle, which is we're all just doing the same things that everyone else is doing. We're all just doing the same things that everyone else is doing. We get so caught up in oh hey, true, classic teas, which is this hundred million dollar brand, is doing it this way.
Speaker 1:Therefore, I need to do, I should do it this way, yeah, and I'm not saying that that's wrong to do, especially if you can catch people who are succeeding in the early times Especially if you can catch people who are succeeding in the early times, sure, it's not wrong to do.
Speaker 2:But I think the message here is you have to learn, as a marketer and as a business, to operate off of first principles. You have to be able to diagnose your situation, not just repeat what you see someone else doing, because, again, true classic tees that's phenomenal what they've done, but the chances are that you can just copy a few of their ads and find success is probably slim. Now that's not to say you can't try it Again. This goes back to testing. We're not saying don't test things.
Speaker 1:Yeah, don't be inspired, don't find inspiration, yeah, by others.
Speaker 2:But again, like you have to be able to sit back and diagnose what kind of river and what kind of season you're fishing in, yeah, I'm just going to keep bringing back the fishing analogy.
Speaker 1:I actually thought, like I actually thought, sometimes you stretch things, but this was good. I thought this one was really good. I think you nailed the metaphor personally, yeah, it's gone great and you taught me a little bit about fishing. Yeah we'll have to go. Yeah, absolutely One day I'm going this week. One day I will come fishing with you.
Speaker 2:I'm going to go mousing this week. Actually nice, yeah, mousing is exciting. You have to go at night, though that's too freaky for me no, you just gotta have a little. Have a little red bull. Maybe it's a little spooky at night going up to a river in the mountains with no one around might be a serial killer out there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm telling you.
Speaker 2:But you catch some hogs. Or you get skunked.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I've heard some crazy serial killer stories about up in the mountains.
Speaker 2:Really and people. Yeah, up in the mountains.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I'm not worried about it.
Speaker 1:I just take my trusty old dog and yeah, if you have a dog, then that's very helpful. Yes, I would think it is.
Speaker 2:But to get back to the point, you have to operate off of first principles. So what do we mean by operating off of first principles and being able to diagnose it? It is A you have to start with what is the river you're actually fishing in, because every river or region has different kinds of fish right, and different seasons and different kinds of bugs. So you have to realize, hey, true, classic Tees is over there fishing in I don't know, like appalachia, west virginia, but I'm fishing over in california.
Speaker 1:It's not going to be the same, because they're probably fishing for I think they got brown trout out there and stuff and like brown trout are, you know, an invasive species, species technically or to kind of take away from the fishing stuff for a second salmon still head over in California like true classic tees because of their success, like they're fishing in waters that are prepped for them right now, right where, like you, could be a hundred thousand dollar brand and you have to you're prospecting significantly more, but also you gotta.
Speaker 2:I think you're prospecting significantly more, but also you got to. I think you reel it back even further. Pun intended, it's True. Classic Tees is operating off of a first principle, which is where they identified a very relatable problem and specific type of customer.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Which was your everyday guy who couldn't find a good fitting t-shirt. Yeah, but also didn't want to be like a gym fanatic to get a good fitting t-shirt right like that was their whole business model, so they they operated off of. Oh hey, we know what these people want, yeah, and now we're going to build our strategy and our marketing and our company around solving this problem.
Speaker 1:So they identified their audience and its problem.
Speaker 2:Yes, which was hungry fish.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and the fish. It's like okay, who's the audience? It's trout. What are they eating?
Speaker 2:That's what we're doing. So they're not just fishing in waters that were ready for them by luck. Now, there's always a little luck involved, right, sure, even in fishing. But if you're watching them have success, well, take a step back and realize, hey, what am I actually trying to provide, what's the problem, and who are these people and what are they interested in?
Speaker 1:How do you figure that information out?
Speaker 2:Well, for one, you just talk to your customers. I know we harp on that all the time.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:But if you know who your customer is, let's just assume you know you're selling to women and be more specific than that right You're selling to. Let's just say you're selling to women between the ages of 25 and 45. That's your main target demographic, who struggle with getting out of bed in the morning, Like that's how deep you need to go in terms of like that's how specific you are.
Speaker 2:Yep or stay at home moms that aren't working we have instant energy packets for moms that, yeah, the moms that can't get up in the morning because, yeah, they were up all night with a kid. Yeah, all natural energy packet that's good for you, whatever yep yeah, so talking to your customers, so you know who they are. So they're women, they're, they're tired, yep.
Speaker 2:So now how do you create content and hooks for women who are tired who are going to social media for a break from their day because they're tired and they're just like totally monotonously scrolling.
Speaker 2:yep, that's how deep like. So that's what we're talking about operating from first principles and then you start testing it. You're testing out your flies, your hooks, to see, hey, what's holding people. And I know people out there on social media will say nothing matters but CPAs and ROAS, and that's true At the end of the day, yes, you gotta sell things, but you gotta look at hook rates to see, hey, if your hook rate is holding people, but then you have a low click-through rate, then maybe the offer or maybe the explanation wasn't good enough.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Right. But if you have a good hook rate and a decent hold rate throughout the video and a high click-through rate and then a low conversion rate, well then.
Speaker 1:Maybe the expectation is not met from the ad to the To destination To destination.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that's how you start diagnosing the journey, like what's wrong with what I would call in reeling in the fish?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Like why do you keep letting it slip?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Which happens a lot in fly fishing right Like right. Like you can let a fish slip if you're not holding the line the right way, if you're not keeping the line tied, if you're not doing it, so right. And also you can let it slip at the end like right when at the net, right, you're trying to net the fish and sometimes that it gets loose and it can slip away right at the end. So you got to diagnose what is wrong throughout the step, throughout the steps in order to have a complete picture.
Speaker 2:But again with hooks in general, you're looking at that hook rate and you're saying is this catching their attention or not? Yeah, and if it is, then you can move to the next step any, any, uh, um, I know a lot of these things.
Speaker 1:We're talking from an ad perspective, but any metrics you want to toss out there from, like, a good hook rate is over three seconds. What is the percentage you want to see of that many people watching it for that long?
Speaker 2:I don't want to give a percentage. What I want to say is just look at it yourself. Operate from first principles. So look at what you're doing right now in your ad account or in your social media. Look at your social media View metrics in your organic channel and look at what your best ones are and your worst ones. Have an average and just beat your average. Yeah, like it, I think too many people want to look at.
Speaker 1:Must be 25% or whatever.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and again, you know Kim Kardashian's going to have a much better rate of all of these things just because people know who she is. So her face is a hook in of itself. So you can't compare. Again, don't go comparing to other rivers. Look at what you have in front of you and just do better than what your average is and try to figure out why your best videos performed and why your worst ones didn't.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I like it Nicely done.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that was short, and sweet.
Speaker 1:We tied the fishing very well into marketing Tied. We tied the knot on that.
Speaker 2:We tied the knot on that. Yeah, we did, we didied. We tied the knot on that. We tied the knot on that. Yeah, we did, we did right. We can wrap that up. Yeah, and we do need to wrap it up because I am drinking a lot of water and I gotta go Gotta go to the restroom.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I'm really hungry. Sweet, we did it, we recorded. Sorry we were round two tomorrow. Yeah, sorry we were late or we've been gone for two weeks.
Speaker 2:I'm not sorry, but we're gonna figure out. I'm sorry if you missed us yeah, of course they missed us, but I'm not sorry for being gone yeah. I'll just be honest vacation.
Speaker 1:We were out and about, we were enjoying ourselves. Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, alright, everybody, thank you so vacation, we were out and about we were enjoying ourselves.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's right. Yeah, all right, everybody, thank you so much for listening and we will see you next tuesday, for sure, ciao. Thank you so much for listening to the unstoppable marketer podcast. Please go rate and subscribe the podcast, whether it's good or bad. We want to hear from you because we always want to make this podcast better. If you want to get in touch with me or give me any direct feedback, please go follow me and get in touch with me. I am at the Trevor Crump on both Instagram and TikTok. Thank you, and we will see you next week.