91: Is your teen being lazy, or could they be lacking a key executive skill?

It's incredibly frustrating to parent a teen who seems smart but is constantly late, can't set effective goals, can't keep going after their initial burst of enthusiasm, who's messy, doesn't start projects on time, or can't seem to control their impulses. 

Are they being lazy or is it that they lack a key skill which is holding them back? The latest book I read makes it clear that problems with any of these tasks isn't necessarily lack of interest or laziness, but can be a lack of skill in an area called executive function. 

In this episode I talk through the types of executive function deficits, and how we can spot them. What's exciting is that the book implies that with the right training our teens can learn how to overcome the sorts of things that drive us nuts and are holding them back from achieving their goals. 

It's an exciting prospect, because it puts the emphasis on the need to learn skills rather than on personal failing, and gives us parents hope that by being supportive in slowly acquiring the skills our kids can lead lives free of the enormous frustrations that these deficits can cause.

BOOK:
Smart but Scattered Teens, by Richard Guare PhD, Peg Dawson, EdD, and Colin Guare

Transcript

Rachel Richards: 0:02

Susie, hello and welcome to teenagers untangled the audio hug for parents going through the teenage years. I'm Rachel Richards, parenting coach, journalist, mother of two teenagers and two owners daughters.

Susie Asli: 0:13

Hi there. I'm Susie asley, mindfulness coach, mindful therapist and musician and mother of three teenagers, two of them are twins.

Rachel Richards: 0:21

Do you remember our first? Was it our first? It was one of our first episodes about getting teens to tidy their room. Yes, I do. It's actually quite entertaining. If you haven't listened to it, you should, because it seems such a long time ago. It's such a long time ago, and some of the responses were very funny, yeah. But since then, I've done huge amounts of research, interviewed various people, finally come to an amazing book called smart but scattered teens. And the reason I'm excited about it is that it sets out its stall as an executive skills program for helping teens reach their potential, which all sounds a bit like, what?

Susie Asli: 1:00

Yeah,

Rachel Richards: 1:01

but I have had real success with workbooks that I bought from Amazon or online before with really deep problems. So I'm quite a fan of getting structured book. But I like structure. Yes, I like it when they sort of make it something, if it speaks to me and I think, oh, yeah, I can understand that. Can work through it, yes, and this one's one of those. So what are executive skills? I've come across the term in reports for kids who need extra support at school, so I just thought, Oh, well, they've got an executive skill like problem, and so it just functions to me, yeah, so to me, it just meant something that, you know, if you've got a neurodivergent child, that there'll be some issues there, but actually we all, to some extent, can suffer from executive skills gaps, 100% Yeah. So actually, that's what the thing went. I went, Oh, interesting, because

Susie Asli: 1:53

different parts of the brain do different things, and that's just one part of it, yes,

Rachel Richards: 1:57

and it's the frontal lobe, yeah. So it's the thing that we talk about all the time that the teenagers really struggle with, and it's and the reason it's exciting is because their skills, and we can train it, we can train it. So you're born with the ability to develop them. But do you develop them? Yes, and it's really affected by stress, yes, absolutely. That's one of the things they talked about your environment. And if you are, you grew up in a very difficult environment that's going to, you know, have a massive impact on and those kids who are in schools where they feel very stressed, they're not going to learn very well, and they're not going to be able to develop some of these skills. I completely agree. Yeah, yeah. And I felt that when I was a teenager, I had a lot of executive skill gaps, and my father would yell at me for getting things wrong, which just made it impossible to think yeah, because

Susie Asli: 2:45

your nervous system goes into survival immediately, and then that part of your brain actually switches off

Rachel Richards: 2:50

yes. And I'm saying that because I think a lot of people do that, and it's not just him, I think it because it's very frustrating. You're like, why don't you do this yeah? Or

Susie Asli: 2:59

stress Yes, or all sorts of things, yes.

Rachel Richards: 3:02

So it's that ability to kind of hold on, to work with information, focus your thinking. So we'll go into it, and we'll talk about the things that we can do.

Susie Asli: 3:13

Yeah, I think I'm really interested in this one, Me too.

Rachel Richards: 3:18

Me too for me. And actually, in truth, like I said, I had massive executive skill gaps, and it's taken me my whole life to work through a lot of them using and I used my New Year's resolution technique. But it would be really nice if my children didn't have to spend their whole life.

Susie Asli: 3:36

And it's really amazing, isn't it, because it's not that long ago that we didn't realize that we could train our brains like we thought that our brains were just, you know, when we hit our I don't know, early 20s, that was it. But we know that you can measure on the brain that, you know, if a 90 year old takes up a new skill, you can see on the brain that they develop new neural pathways. So we know that we can, we can train our brain like a muscle. Amazing,

Rachel Richards: 4:00

absolutely, which is just really exciting, positive. It's exciting. It's positive, exciting, and it takes away the shame, because when you say to your child, it's not that you aren't bright or you're not capable, it's that there's a skill gap, and we all struggle with these skill gaps. And here's the gap, unless you know, work on it, the growth mind, it takes all the shame away, right? Let's talk nuggets.

Susie Asli: 4:24

Nuggets, yes, so my nugget this time is just out of the blue. These things happen, don't they? We just I was having dinner with two of my children, the twins, and it turned into a very honest feedback session. They can be really, yeah, they can be. But this was brilliant. It was lovely. It's very safe space. We have, the three of us and and my daughter started it. I cannot remember how, and it doesn't matter how, but it suddenly became, she was giving feedback to me and to her brother in a really, really. Um, honest, kind of unemotional way, like you're like this, and I see you like this. And then we were like, oh, oh, this is interesting. And then we were both like, oh, even tell, tell me more. Because she's quite she's very perceptive. So it was all very, very true. And then we, you know, flipped it over, and I gave her some feedback back, and I gave my son some feedback, and I made it quite positive as well inside. But they were really interested. We're very honest. I said, like, for example, I said, You don't you don't like he doesn't like difficult conversations. He doesn't like them. And you will try and make me laugh. You'll try and make a joke. That's his go to. And he's like, Yeah, I do that. I do that. Oh, I didn't realize you knew kind of thing.

Rachel Richards: 5:40

That's so funny. It was really someone else.

Susie Asli: 5:43

Yeah, it was really good. And she then said that me and him were so this is related a bit to what we're going to talk about today, that me and him are very similar, and we drive her insane because we're both quite scatty and forgetful and lose stuff. And we were both like, oh, okay, that's oops, yeah, thanks. So she's not, she's super organized, but it's really, it was really lovely. I can really recommend it with a with a light touch and some banter. But you know, you can be really honest. If you, if you create a safe space, you can be really honest. And it's really, really useful and interesting.

Rachel Richards: 6:12

Yeah, I we did actually have a lovely parent who said to me he had been driving his daughter to school complete silence. Their relationships Rocky, yeah, and she's quite young. And he said he thought, I'm either a taxi driver, I'm going to get her to talk. How can I get her to talk? Okay, I'll ask her for some feedback. And he said that was really tough. Oh, and so I just wanted to put that in, because I think sometimes if, if the tone hasn't been said right then it can be very painful and and to not take heart when your child says things that are quite wounding, because sometimes they just feel like wounding someone at the time and lashing out and probably underneath it, they're like, actually, you're great. But I want, don't want to admit, yeah,

Susie Asli: 6:56

no, that's a really good point. I think knowing what the intention behind the conversation is, is crucial. So if the intention is just a light dinner, you know, Oh, tell me what, how you see me, which was, what? Which is lovely. I've also had feedback sessions from from my eldest sessions. It sounds like a you made an appointment. It was just a conversation. And again, the intention was a sharing. And I knew we were in a good space, so but you could also, you could set the intention actually, do you know what? We have some issues at the moment, I would like your feedback. I'm aware it might not be what I want to hear, but I think it would be really positive in a growth space, but knowing our intention behind it would be really important. I

Rachel Richards: 7:35

totally agree. Yeah. And just that, actually, yeah, the whole thing's to grow, and we're trying

Susie Asli: 7:40

to connect here, yeah, and and to take it in. And that

Rachel Richards: 7:44

child may not get that, that's the whole intention behind it, but it's, it's an amazing thing to do, to get that space and to listen to it, and then to say, I'm really sorry, yeah, as the

Susie Asli: 7:54

adult, we know, you know that maybe they're not, you know, they're presenting it in a way that isn't particularly sophisticated, and

Rachel Richards: 8:02

I'm doing this the first time, you know, give me a break. And

Susie Asli: 8:06

sorry. Sorry, you're my guinea pig.

Rachel Richards: 8:08

Yeah, exactly. My nugget is this. I'm holding up my finger. It's wrapped up in, I don't know, like a makeshift bandage with a splint. Anyway, I cleaned my finger, washing up, and it was actually really deep, and I just thought, I haven't got time for this, because we're busy, right? And so I held it up in the air. I did all the things to try and stem the bleeding. Took for very, very, very, very long time. And there were moments when I looked at it and thought, it's still not stopped. Maybe I should see somebody, but no, I haven't got time for that. And I just taped it up and did all the right things. I had a shower. I was in a rush, forgot to cover it so it was open to the air, and, you know, and then it's on a joint. So long story, it got infected. And Rachel, I'm talking about this is because, you know, my daughter said to me, mummy, look at, look at your finger. It's all, it's massive, and it's hot and it's red, and, and I said, yeah, yeah, I know I might get someone to look at it. And I ended up at a walk in center, and she said, Yeah, we would have stitched that. If you come in, it really should have been stitched up. And she had to give me antibiotics. And blah, blah, blah, and, and so the reason I'm talking about this is we need to look after ourselves. Yeah, remember to do that, and and my daughter was rolling her eyes, going, Mommy, you know this, you could have lost a finger. It's ridiculous. So there's an element of, I just haven't got time for this. And I just had, I'm too busy. But we're not really showing our kids the right thing by doing that. And secondly, I then thought, if my child had done that, I would have said, for God's sake, what is wrong with you? I told you to cleanse it properly. Where the right? So we do these stupid things, and then when our kids do them, we just think, what's wrong with you? Yeah, that's why I do these stupid things. What we do? Yes. So your hands up, finger up, yeah. My finger. You know, we have to kind of look at ourselves and the way we behave before we start complaining.

Susie Asli: 10:05

But it's so true. I mean, we all do it. I'm sitting here with a burn mark on my hand because I made my daughter a hot water bottle right when she was poorly, and I was in bed with her, helping her. She really didn't feel very well and wanted a hot water bottle, and I did it in the dark, because it was the middle of the night. My eyes hurt if I turn the light on and poured boiling water all over my hand, you know. And again, she did that, Mom, what are you doing? Why didn't you put ice on it? Yeah, I couldn't spice but you're I need to look after you exactly.

Rachel Richards: 10:34

So it's kind of Yeah. It's getting the balance right. It is put on the oxygen mask before helping anyone else. Yes. They say, Okay, right. Coming back to executive function, like I said, the thing that excited me about this executive function, that's a really crap. I mean, it's just not, you can't relate to that kind of you hear that. It doesn't mean anything. So no, my brain actually switches off. And I think maybe that's why I've missed it all this time. Executive I think, is a briefcase. Well, I think, actually, that's it. It's that sort of all those skills you need to go to an office, which I don't want them. Yeah. Anyway, we're not born with them. We have to develop them. Yes, and some people, it's much harder than others. So people who might have really very big issues, big gaps, might be ones who have ADHD, autism, brain injuries. You know, of course, there are people for whom this is a really challenging area, and if they're struggling, you can look at them and say, Okay, this might flag up something. There are big gaps in their executive function. Or you might say, well, you know, give them a break. They've got these issues. Of course, they're going to struggle with that, but we can take tiny steps. And coming back to a book that I read, which was about why do kids hate school? It was amazing because the guy was saying that the way our brains like problem solving, but we don't like problems that are too hard, so we like doing crossways. We like doing when it looks like it's within our reach. If it's too hard, it's frustrating. We don't want to do it if it's too easy, likewise. So we need to find ways of building things that are just hard enough. That's what we're aiming for,

Susie Asli: 12:07

which is why, as kids struggle in school, if it's too hard, if it's just and they just switch off because it's just horrible,

Rachel Richards: 12:13

yes, and these these skills develop through relationships. We have, activities they engage in, and the places they live, learn and play, and like you said before, it's if they're in a traumatic environment or it's particularly challenging, it's going to make it harder for them to learn these skills. Whether it's a social relationship they have with their parent that's fraught, is going to make it harder, much harder. Yeah, so we do have to be mindful that some of these kids who are in really challenging environments are going to find these skills harder to learn,

Susie Asli: 12:42

yeah? And why? And if that's the case, then the priority has to be to regulate their nervous system first. Yeah, has to be because they won't. Nothing will go in otherwise,

Rachel Richards: 12:51

yeah, I really like that. And we do music, you know, you see something missing. Think, Okay, do I need to calm them down first to

Susie Asli: 12:59

help them to be able to be reg and regulated doesn't mean necessarily to be calm. It just means have to have the ability yes to within that window, to to rebalance and be be in balance Yes. And

Rachel Richards: 13:13

I think what's fascinating about it is that I grew up thinking that people pick these things up, you know that they will learn them from you. You model them. They learn them. Not true, because a small percentage of people will learn them from the people around them, and the majority of us, we need more explicit instruction on how to do these things. And so one of my daughters, who was struggling with remembering to take things, we went through all sorts of little battles, and eventually, you know, she has a checklist. She always uses her checklist. Now it's much easier, and I still, I'm still scaffolding it by saying to her, by the way, did you check and before we leave, just so that she's got that extra little push, but you have to sort of ease off slowly, yeah. And we'll get back into that. So it's a practice. It's a practice. So let's talk about what those skills might look like if they're missing Okay, so the book categorizes executive function skills in certain areas, so they say response inhibition. So is your teen able to hold themselves back if they're in a situation that's a bit a bit upsetting. And obviously we all respond to things, but are they able to hold back a bit, you know, before they jump into something, or are they finding it really hard not to react instantly? Okay, working memory. And that's your ability a working memory again, it's from this other book I read, which is about the way that we think. And the guy said, your working memory is critical to being able to think, because what happens is, you take information that you've been given right now, you put it in your working memory, you draw stuff out of your long term memory, put it together in your working memory, and that's what you're, you're you're working with. And most of our thinking is just reshuffling. Stuff that we've come across. So our long term memory is really important for that but also having a good working memory is important for that skill. So if you don't have a good working memory, that can be really challenging. Yes, right? Emotional control, again, it's that being able to not explode if you're so there's the reaction, and then there's the emotional control, just being able to calm your you know, just calm your senses. Yeah, exactly, yes. That's the word flexibility. Are you able to switch from one thing to the next? So let's say something went wrong here. Are you going to get completely fixated on that? Or are you able to switch and say, Oh, it's, I can do this now, or I need to change, change up. And I've seen that in one of my kids, you know, and they're both different. They both have different things that they've learned as they've gone along, sustained attention, being able to really focus for a period of time. And these are all things they could be missing. Task initiation. Are they really bad at starting tasks? Because we've all been there, yeah. But is this a regular problem that they're presenting with planning? Yes. How good are they are planning their lives, their day, their week. Organization. You know, if you look at their desk, is everything messy? They do. They know where everything is, because some people just pile and some people have but do they have a clue how this works? Is it organized? Is it organized? Time management. Yes, I know somebody who's an adult who's always turns up late, goal directed persistence. So actually they say, I really want this. Are they continuing that path towards what it is that they want? And then metacognition, which is the ability to to reflect on your own thinking, reflect on your own way. So these are all executive function, lots of things. That's

Susie Asli: 16:46

a lot, super interesting to hear that. And I will, I resonate with a lot of that. And I'm thinking of two particular to my children, particularly, who resonate with a lot of that. I've got the book you recommended. I haven't read it yet, but, yeah, really, really interesting. And some of the things you think, Oh no, that that bit's okay. And that bit, Whoa, yeah, that bit, isn't it interesting?

Rachel Richards: 17:07

Because it will be different for different kids. And like I said, I think the key is we mustn't assume that our teens aren't doing the things we want them to do, or that they should be doing because they don't want to, because that's kind of what you just Yeah. And actually, it may be that they don't have the skills Yeah, because they haven't developed them yet. Or

Susie Asli: 17:26

something is, maybe I was thinking as you're reading out something's, you know, that are missing, the thing the skills are missing, or another way of looking at is, it's what's in the way of them, because maybe it's something that's blocking, yes, and that could be stress or emotional needs, or, you know, not no confidence in their abilities, things like that. They they're they're actually in the way, aren't they? What's behind, behind all Yeah. But

Rachel Richards: 17:50

I think the most important thing to start with is recognizing Yes. And what I love about what they're saying in this book is that you start off by they have a quiz you can do to identify. I think we could actually identify, like you did with your kids. Actually, you can identify them in each other. Yeah, right. We know, yes, well, no, that's the point. The point is, as a parent, don't just force your teenager or ask your teenager to do it, say, I'm going to do it too,

Susie Asli: 18:21

and then go, Oh, I'm way worse than you, right? Let's yes, no.

Rachel Richards: 18:25

It also, what's really interesting is they said, often the flashpoints in a family happen where you've got one person with a very high level of aptitude in one area, like the skill is very good. For example, let's go back to tidying your room. You know, you've got someone who's naturally extremely tidy, my mother in law, and then you've got a child who is in incredibly messy and and they cannot understand, like the the really tidy person, can't understand why the the messy person would struggle with this at all. And the messy person can't understand why it's so easy if they're interested in doing it in the first place? Yes, right? Yeah, totally. And that becomes a bit of a flash point. Yeah, it can be a so I think we the, what they say is, we need to the most important goal is, first of all, try and establish what's missing and what's the priority. Because it might be a few things. Don't talk about the few things. Find the one thing that's really causing the biggest problem, just focus on the one thing that they want to work on, where they go. Actually, I think that is an issue. The most important thing is to keep them on the court like not have you don't want to get them off, so they disappear. They go. I don't want to do this anymore. No. So, so you're always trying to get them so that we can keep working on this particular skill. Yeah. So

Susie Asli: 19:39

doing it together is really interesting, isn't it having each other accountable maybe,

Rachel Richards: 19:43

and what we need to do is we need to provide just enough support for them to be successful. So coming back to the way we like when we like a challenge, we like it when we can just do it right. And I read this piece about the psychology of positivity and how you need three pieces of positive feedback. Okay to feel really good and when things are very hard. So and the example I've got is the easy read system that I use to teach my dyslexic daughter how to read, because she was really struggling with reading. It was extraordinary. And I start with I just thought, it's not working. This is rubbish, because I paid this money and she's not learning and she doesn't want to do it. And I messaged them and said, Yeah, sorry. It's not really working. And they said to tell you what, what we want to do is we're going to have someone else sit in the virtual room with you and listen to you working with her. So I said, Fine, okay, and we did it. And then afterwards, she said, right, I'm just going to tell you you clearly haven't read your notes enough, and you're not implementing what we've told you. And I said something, what was that? And she said, you need to, after every second or third word, say, Wow, yes, great, excellent. Love that positive feedback all the way through. And I've had that again. I learned it from that. Yeah, it works a dream. And then I, I implemented that in another sport that my child was really struggling with, yeah, and I, I just went behind her and kept saying, that's great. I love that. I love that. And Shifu amazing.

Susie Asli: 21:13

That's so interesting. It's really powerful. That's really interesting. I've been helping one of my kids revising, and I was doing that, and he told me to stop. Ah, I've had that too. Yes, that's not helping. It's just annoying, yes. But then on the day, he was actually struggling, really struggling and panicking because there was an exam in a few hours, and he he felt he didn't know it enough. And he did, but he was, he was in the he was worried. I consciously praised everything he remembered, and actually, I could see the switch in him. So maybe it's you have to type. I think it's

Rachel Richards: 21:46

when they're struggling. Yeah. So I had that with my first daughter when she was learning to read, and quite quickly she said, can you just not say anything, because you're really distracting me. I'm really enjoying this. I was like, okay, and by the way, can I just read on my own? I don't want to. And I think it's when they're struggling, because what you're trying to do is overcome that internal voice that's saying you can't do this, yes, right? The chimp. Because coming back to the Chimp Paradox, there's a chimp, and the chimp is the thing that's going to say, you don't want to do that. That's really hard. You're not going you're not enjoying this, and you've got to drown that chimp out saying, you know, yeah, you're great. This is great. Yeah, that

Susie Asli: 22:20

was really clear when you were struggling. It helps. And when helped him when he wasn't. It was to be quiet. That's annoying, yes. So

Rachel Richards: 22:27

getting buy in. How'd you get your kid into the court? So are you identify the problem or the thing you'd like to work on, and explain why you are concerned or and what the future impact might be so separate it from who they are. Just say, this thing is a skill that if we just focus on this skill, it could really help with this, but if we don't, then it could cause these issues.

Susie Asli: 22:53

And they're usually very aware, really, aren't they? I mean, the one of my kids I'm thinking of and here, I'm sure you won't mind me saying this is, wants to go to sixth one college, and is going to sixth one college, the school he's at, he will probably do better at in inverted commas, because he would, you know, probably achieve more. But he said, No, I want to go to the one that's less nurturing and more hands off, because I'm really fed up with not having this, these skills. I don't like it. I don't like being disorganized. I don't like not remembering stuff, so I want to learn interesting

Rachel Richards: 23:25

so he he's identified, he's ripe. Yeah, that

Susie Asli: 23:28

kid wants I know. So I'm like, we've been doing some stuff, and I and I'm really similar to him, so I've got the book, and I'm thinking, we're going to do this together,

Rachel Richards: 23:36

which is even very incentive, what it's raping to do. And actually, that's, I love that, that if we can find something where we could both improve together, that's very it's a nice connector. Yeah, we were talking really good connector. Yeah. And the don'ts, don't point out the reasons why the problem solving approach of your team won't work and how your solution is better.

Susie Asli: 23:57

Okay,

Rachel Richards: 23:58

don't do the kick. There's the kiss kick behavior, which is where you say, Oh, I love that you tied it up your room. Look at it. It's so good. I see I told you that if you put your mind to it, you could do it. That's that's a pleasant that's a salty, sweet Yeah, or a sweet salt,

Susie Asli: 24:13

yeah. Nobody needs to hear but we

Rachel Richards: 24:16

all do this. Sometimes. I've spoken to so many parents who won't go, yeah. See,

Susie Asli: 24:21

that wasn't so hard, was it? See,

Rachel Richards: 24:24

you saying that makes me never want to do anything for you again. So yes, just keep your mouth shut. Hear yourself saying it and go, don't say it. Don't say it. Mouth shut. Don't compare with peers or siblings, and don't approach a problem from a position of anger or criticism, all the classic things. But it's just the don't, um, and focus on how the desired changes are going to boost their independence, because think about how teenagers that's what they really want. What teenagers want is they want to feel like they're adults and they can get to choose everything and they want in their life and be free. That's what they think adulthood is. I've got news for you, but. Done. But so the carrot is, you know, if we can work on this, you're going to be much just think of it like when I was learning how to sell you learn, and the benefit to you, Mr Jones is so you just say you could do and the benefit to you is more freedom or more. So think about what it is that I

Susie Asli: 25:18

imagine it's a loop, isn't it? It becomes a loop, because the better we are at doing these little which they can be really little things and little habits that we need to change, the more confidence we trust ourselves. It's like, it's the, I don't know if any of you know, the the amazing, the holistic psychologist, Dr Nicole Lapera. She's all over social media. She's absolutely incredible. Look her up, and one of, one of her things, one of her brilliant things, is, you know, promising things to yourself gives you self confidence, even if it's just drinking a glass of water every day. If you do that every day for a couple of weeks, you will then trust yourself to do that, and that accumulates. So if you can learn these executive function things and some they will give you confidence to that you're more capable, that you're more able, and that will have a ripple effect and inspire you to do more and then, and then, it will also take away the stress of not being able to do it. And stress affects our executive function. So again, that's promoting more flow in that system as well, which

Rachel Richards: 26:19

comes back to why I love the the taking stock thing, where you say, so you've achieved all of these things. Because, I think quite often, with our negative bias, and the way teenagers think is, oh, I can't do this, can't it? You actually say, look at what you managed to do. And they start off with that in their head, and you go, Well, clearly you could do that. So what else can we do? Yeah, absolutely,

Susie Asli: 26:41

100% and they cannot. They really understand the idea of negative bias. I've used that recently with with both my kids, and said, you know, you're after an exam, you know, they come out and go, it was okay, but I'm not sure. And then four days later, oh, I think I did really badly. Whoa, hang on. That's your negative bias. That's your negative bias kicking in. And because they know what that means. They go, Oh, okay, when you came out of the exam, you said this, and now you're saying this, can you see what's happening? It's really and they get they understand all of that. And I

Rachel Richards: 27:09

love your point about how it can be a really positive spiral of self fulfillment, because I think that's what's happened to me. I think from being a teenager and struggling with so many things and having to really start from scratch. I learned techniques for taking it slowly and just learning, just focusing on one thing a year. Yeah, I got better at and, and it's turned me into a kind of getting better junkie, where I just, I think, oh, what I look what I mentioned. What else can I amazing? And it's a lovely feeling. It

Susie Asli: 27:38

is I used to poo poo, the little tweak thing, like years ago, like, I want them, I want the big effect. I don't want to bother with all of the little stuff. But it is the little stuff, and it accumulates. A big part of it is it gives us self confidence that we are able where we're capable, yes,

Rachel Richards: 27:54

yes. And that gives the agency to carry on exactly so they break behavioral style into five types in terms of the and, I mean, obviously I'm not going to do the whole book. You have to buy the book if you want it, but I just, I just thought it was really good to highlight this ahead, around this stuff, give us the version. Rachel, so the types of kids, the types of response you might get, see if you've got these kids right, number one would say, I know. I have a problem. Can you take care of it for me? Oh, right, you've seen those kids, yeah. And I will, I will go back over it and mention how you deal with these kids, because some are easier than others. Number two, I know I have a problem. I'm open to working with someone of my own choosing. Yeah. Number three, I admit that I'm having a problem, can I get something as a reward for working on it? Oh, interesting. Number four, I guess I'm having a problem. I'd like to try and handle it myself. And number five, I don't think I have a problem, but I'll take care of it if I have okay, we don't want number that's the worst. That's the hardest one to deal with. Okay, so on

Susie Asli: 29:02

a time, time thing as well, isn't it? Maybe that's where you start, and then you're more aware, yes.

Rachel Richards: 29:07

So number one, quite a hard one to deal with. The let someone else. Can you take care of it? Right? For me, they, they say, solicit problem solving strategies and get them to try those strategies alone, like you say, what do you think would be a good solution? And hand hold them in the sense that you walk them through how they can come up with a solution, but make them do it. Right? It's hard, because often those kids have had somebody who's been we have a tendency to be the prefrontal cortex for our kids. Yes, right? We do this particularly we're helicoptering or bulldozing. We're trying to, trying to do it for them, and we need to somehow hand that power over the the one which is, I'm, you know, I'll work with someone I choose. Fine, let them find a direction the person, as

Susie Asli: 29:55

long as it's not a fob off. It's not a fob. No,

Rachel Richards: 29:57

no. Because if, well, you can come back again. Yeah. Well, that doesn't work, does it? And the reward, some kids are really focused on that offer them something that they want. Because most parents will go, Well, why have I got to give you a reward? The reward is having the rewards are brilliant. I've done that. Yeah. I mean, it doesn't have to be a like money. It can be, but it can be something where you just know that your child really cares about this. Fine, okay, what is the reward you want. Let's negotiate it. Get in the room with them. Are they going to be reward oriented? Fine, and like to try and handle it myself, negotiate specific performance standards. So if they say, I'm going to handle it, you go, Okay, let's talk about the performance standards, and then I'll let you do it all right? So that in that they don't reach it, then you can say, Well, you haven't so let's go back in it again. And the final one, which is, I don't think I've got a problem. These kids are usually very confrontational and quite difficult to manage. What they say in this is, use grand Mars law, which I'd never heard of before, which is a first this, then that. So first eat your vegetables, then you get your pudding. So it's the kind of first, do your homework, then you can do the fun stuff. And they said that's one of the best ways of working with someone like that, where they're just really like, I don't have a problem. You say, Fine, okay, so just, we'll, we'll just hold back the fun stuff until you've done the thing you need to get done. Yeah,

Susie Asli: 31:18

and then hope that it's hard, hope that they're on board enough to do that, because they might just

Rachel Richards: 31:23

tell you to get lost. Yeah. But then that's connection problem, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, absolutely, 100% so go back and try and fix it, yeah, yeah, yeah. And they say that, you know, obviously these are, this is a massive topic, if, if your relationship, it's dependent on you having a decent relationship with your team. So again, let's work on that. But if that's not really working, you can ask from, you know, you can try and get a coach, if you can afford it, you can do some of this, because that's what they would do. They would coach.

Susie Asli: 31:52

Yeah, I'm also thinking that, especially for the last category, but maybe for all of them, there can be a lot of shame involved in some of these topics, because it can be, it can feel really embarrassing and well, embarrassment and shame are not the same thing, but they overlap. But the idea, you know, if they're always late, if they're always disorganized, if they're seen as in a particular way, then some of them can feel a lot of shame around that. So they might, it might feel really uncomfortable to delve into it. So that's

Rachel Richards: 32:20

but that's why I love this, because from reading this, it's given me all the language I need to take all the shame away from it and say, Do you know what? It's just a skill. Yes, that, you know, some people find it easy, some people find it harder, but it's a skill. Yes, it's just a skill they've learned, and you're equally capable of learning it. So let's try and think because, because you've got all sorts of other things you've been learning, and this one's fallen by the wayside. Let's try and fix it. No, no, I really like that. A nice, easy, non confrontational. There's nothing wrong with you. It's just like, let's try and work on this skill. Practice the skill and start small and work our way up. Start small so that you can get that positive feedback. Yes, yes, yes. And Ken Rabo said, if they stumble, we have to you can't be, Oh, for God's sake, you've got to be. Oh, well, let's go back again tomorrow.

Susie Asli: 33:06

Yeah. No, I like that. I like it too. Go and read the book. Yeah. Honestly, I

Rachel Richards: 33:11

love the book. I mean, I am not getting paid for this. In fact, I asked the lady, one of the ladies who wrote it, to come on the show. She was absolutely lovely. Emailed me back straight away, and she said, You know what? Because the book was written in 2013 so she's not trying to market it. And she said, I just, I'm trying to pull back from everything. So I just said, fair Fair enough. Fair enough. We'll just talk about it anyway.

Susie Asli: 33:33

Yeah, you've done a great, great I've sold it well. You already had. I just haven't read it yet. Yeah, that's

Rachel Richards: 33:41

the next thing. So you know, there's books on the shelf, yeah, don't go in by osmosis. Don't put them under your pillow. No shame. Anyway. If you found this helpful, please send it to at least one person. Talk to everybody about it. I went out with a friend last night to a sort of presentation at Farron ball, because she's an designer sort of person. And she told everybody in the room that she was speaking to Oh, Rachel's podcast. I just like, Oh, I love you. You're gonna have some paint. I did. I got a little sample pot. It was very kind. I was just

Susie Asli: 34:14

thinking, you know, on the on the topic of this accountability, and, you know, maybe I should, I'm definitely going to read the book, but maybe I can try it out. Try it out, because I think that was going to really help. And then we can do a follow up. I

Rachel Richards: 34:27

think we should do a follow up, because, yes, and that's actually something that I'm going to be working on over the summer holidays. That's my kind of, you know, let's not, let's not have lots of things to work on. Let's just try and find the things that really will make a big difference. Back to the sign off. Susie, how can people contact you?

Susie Asli: 34:44

Oh, they can contact me on my website, which is www, amindful life, CO, ukenlife.co.uk, had to really think about that. My executive function has died. You're

Rachel Richards: 34:54

just tired. And also LinkedIn, Instagram, but you can find all the links on. The website, yeah, the main website, www teenagersuntangled com. You can leave a review there or on Apple podcast. Please follow the show, and you can contact me on teenagersuntangled@gmail.com I do read everything. I don't necessarily answer people who want to sell somebody onto the show. So I'm sorry if I haven't got time for that. But anyway, that's it for now,

Susie Asli: 35:23

Bye, bye. For now, bye, bye, you.