Soul Surgeon Dr. Gigi Samed: Burnout is a Form of Depression

Dr. Gigi is an ER doc, speaker, author and transformational coach with an MBA, as well as the creator of Medical School for the Soul. This innovative curriculum restores joy and prevents burn out while increasing revenue and patient satisfaction.  Her legacy is to return the heart to healthcare, one medical school class at a time, one physician at a time, and stop physician burnout and suicide.

https://www.drgigisamed.com/medicalschoolforthesoul

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Transcript

Burnout is a Form Depression: Soul Surgeon, Dr. Gigi Samed

[00:00:00] 

Liz Treynor: Welcome to Mind Surfer MD. I am so thrilled to have Dr. Gigi Samid here with us today Soul Surgeon and ER doc, in practice for almost 30 years. She is a known speaker and author, has an MBA which I think is super cool. As physicians, most of us are not fluent in business, and I think it's actually so important for us as physicians to learn the skills of negotiation and other things.

She's also a transformational coach, and she has a really cool program called Medical School for the Soul that we're gonna talk about. But first, we're gonna talk about how your life brought you to the place where you became a transformational coach, where you became somebody who was so passionate about preventing burnout, helping us with the disillusionment that we get [00:01:00] when we get into medical practice.

Um, and I also love that your, your program. helps physicians find more satisfaction, both with their practice, with their lives, but also increases patient satisfaction. Because when we're happy, we give better care to our patients and that actually helps our bottom line. And obviously happiness is the ultimate currency, right?

And coaching is not cheap, but this is the ultimate currency and it is priceless. And so Dr. Gig, Thank you for being here. How are you this morning?

Gigi Samed: Oh my gosh, so good. I'm so excited. Like, I, I, we've talked back and forth for like a month and I'm like, I can't wait for this conversation. And like, there's so many jumping off points for everything that you just listed off.

So I'm like, I'm, I don't even know where to start, where to begin. Where did to begin? Yeah. You know, for, you asked, how did I get here and why am I so passionate about it? And like, there's so many choice points in our [00:02:00] lives and you only see them looking back. , right? At the time you're going through them, you're like, this sucks.

This is hard. I hate this. And then looking backwards, it's like, oh, that was one of those choice points where my life could have gone one way or the other. Um, you know, and I'm passionate about it because burnout is this like sneaky thing that we all think is just about the system and just about healthcare and just about what we're going through.

But no, it's like burnout is, it's actually I think, a form of depression. that we don't realize it's, you know, I was thinking about this before we got on the call, and you know, I remember being in my first year of medical school at Temple in Philadelphia in 1991, right? And they said, look to your right, look to your left.

Two out of the three people you just looked at are gonna be gone by the time you graduate. Now, they didn't mean suicide, they meant dropping out because they made it so difficult. But I will never forget the person on my right, Michael. . A year and a [00:03:00] half later, the top most brilliant person married two children and he committed suicide.

He shot himself and I thought, whoa, like this is not how we're supposed to lose people. This is not supposed to happen. And it didn't. I didn't understand it. I was like, I didn't. I was like, wait, what? How can you have it all and opt out and. . You know, years later when I went through my own burnout that escalated into, and I shouldn't say it, escalated to it, it channeled into becoming addicted to Ambien.

And this was when Ambien first came out and nobody knew it was addictive. And you know, uh, I got to be that person that was the sleepwalker. Sleep driver. Sleep eater. But when you live by yourself, there's no one to tell you. But I remember wanting to numb out. . You know, at some point it didn't put me to [00:04:00] sleep, but it made it okay cuz I didn't have to feel mm-hmm.

And you know, truly, I think all addiction in some form or another is just trying to not feel something or trying not to confront something and. The depression, you know, realizing that depression is anger turned inwards. That was a life changer, a game changer. It's like, what? I'm depressed, what am I so angry about that I just gave up?

It's the hopelessness, it's the powerlessness. It's, you know, David Hawkins wrote a book called Power versus Force, and in that book he has a scale of consciousness. And the crazy thing is that anger has a higher frequency than depression. because when you're depressed, you're hopeless. When you're angry, you at least have enough energy to go outwards.

And you know there's a line. I think it's above 500 is when you start to feel alive. And guess what? 500 is it's love and happiness.

Yeah. Wow. And they don't teach us this. And so I, I [00:05:00] wasn't suicidal in the sense of I'm gonna kill myself, but there is such a thing as slow suicide.

As passive suicide. And I think we see it in our patients all the time, but we don't recognize it. It's, you know, what do you mean you're not taking your diabetic medicine? Why are you still drinking yourself to death? Those are all slow suicide. and that was me. I wasn't, I didn't wanna actively die cuz I was like, my brain was like, but you have this good life.

How, what? But I remember saying, I wish I didn't wake up tomorrow. And, and we don't recognize it until someone says, no, I'm, I want to die. Well guess what? Not wanting to wake up tomorrow is, I'd rather die than be here. And that's huge. And it's. . And so that's a big part of the passion for burnout because burnout is like, it's the first fire alarm.

It might actually be the second or third fire alarm. It's the alarm that says you're dropping down on the scale of [00:06:00] consciousness and vibration to now you're getting into anger territory. And we think we're angry and burned out that the system. But the reality is, it's like when you're, when you have an empty bucket and you start.

It's kind of like when parents have kids and they get so angry at something at work and they take it out on the kid. So here we are, we take it out on the system, and it's th don't get me wrong, the system is flawed. Absolutely. But it's, it's our lack of nurture and care for ourselves. It's, we've crossed our boundaries so much and so often for years to achieve the dream.

that when we finally get there, we're like, what the, Hmm, excuse my language, but I speak French fluently. What the fuck? 

Liz Treynor: I, no, thank you. This is a fucking kisser. So . Oh, why? Why this honey? This is, 

Gigi Samed: and it's literally like, I mean, the metaphor I think of is, it's like if you are hungry [00:07:00] and they.

but it's okay. Put it off. Just get this done and then you can eat. Just get this done and then you can eat. And here we are, medical school residency. You know, you start out practicing and you're like, well, when am I going to eat? , and then you think, oh, I'm eating. I'm finally making the big paycheck. I'm the attending.

I finally have the position of authority. And you're like, wait, I'm still starving. And then hangry kicks in and I turn into Betty White. And now I'm a cranky curmudgeon about everything. And I'm blaming the, the system and the, the colleagues who are cranky and the, you know, and the patients who are this.

And it's just like, no, I'm star. I've been hangry for years, and it's like, what is it that I've been hungry for? For me, it was the thing that made me wanna be a doctor in the first place. I wanted to connect, like I was 11 when I wanted to be a doctor. I wanted to be the person that when I touched someone, the pain goes away.

Like, that's it. [00:08:00] I want, I was like, it was a magical thing to just be a beacon of hope and light and, and a respite from pain. and I was like, okay, medical school, you know, so many hours and study and head down and, and once I learn all the things and I get the book knowledge and then I'll, then I'll be able and allowed to connect.

Then you move into the, the rotations where you're seeing patients and you're like, now I'm gonna get to connect. No, now I've gotta get it right and answer the attendings. Then you go through residency and there's no way we're connecting with 120 hour weeks like we did back then. You know? It's just like, oh my God.

It was survival mode. And then I get out and now I'm in attending and it's like, oh my gosh, I, oh no, I can't connect. Now I've got the metrics and I've got this. And so of course, 10 years later, I'm. I don't know about you, but hangar for me is a real thing. I didn't recognize it till my boyfriend when one day said to me, are you hungry?

And I was like, what? Why? He goes, you get [00:09:00] a little, uh, you know mean when you're hungry. I was like, I do not . 

Liz Treynor: And then he gave, my husband gets angry. My husband does. Yeah. Yeah. And then he gave me a candy 

Gigi Samed: bar and I was like, oh, this thing is real. Okay. My brain just shorts out. So that's why I'm passionate because it's, you know, everybody's so focused on depression and suicide. I'm like, well, what about the lives of quiet desperation? Mm-hmm. , what about the living dead that we've become? Why do we think all these zombie movies are so like popular?

because we're all struggling and trying to stay alive and not turn into a zombie. Oh my 

Liz Treynor: God, that is such a crazy analogy. Cause we were just talking about the last of us . Oh my God. Mm-hmm. . Wow. Right. Wow. 

Gigi Samed: We're cheering for the underdog. We're cheering for the No Stay alive. Humanity overcomes the living dead.

and especially after the last couple of years we've all been through everybody is [00:10:00] realizing the value of connection. Yes. The value of, 

Liz Treynor: you know, thank you Covid. Right? Yeah. Yeah. At least there was something good. 

Gigi Samed: Yeah. Yeah. So yeah. I have so many different ways we can go. Oh, so much. 

Liz Treynor: What appeals? Yeah. Oh my gosh.

Oh, Gigi. So much good stuff. Where to begin. Um, yeah, I, um, , I can relate to so much of what you were talking about because when I, when I get depressed and I was just telling you that like eight months of the year, I, I don't, I don't wanna wake up. I'm so depressed and all I wanna do is sleep. And every time I wake up I'm like, oh darn, I'm still, I have to do it again.

Mm-hmm. And I just, I look forward to sleeping and I look forward to. And actually meditation is something that I finally, um, have come to really find oh, so helpful and beneficial, and I'm finding I'm less reactive. Um, and just connecting with my soul, like just escaping [00:11:00] everything that's on this. Plane. I know this sounds kind of woowoo, but I I, I'm becoming more woowoo as I get older.

I love woo woo. Just like speak my, I love Woow. I love Woow. And there's some book called Why Woow Works, and I haven't read it yet, but I, I'm a huge fan. But, um, that just meditating just takes me out of all these, this plain of. of, you know, first world problems. And I, you know, like you were saying, I also, I have a wonderful life.

I adore my husband who adores me. I, I have a house, I have healthy kids. I have a job that I love. I'm so passionate about pathology. I'm grateful every single day Yeah. That I get to help patients in a meaningful way. and not deal with the EMR hassles that all of my friends deal with. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. and, and, and not deal with so much of the regulations and the bean counting that all of my friends deal with these patient satisfaction scores.

I mean, studies have shown that the better your rating on Yelp, the worst a physician you [00:12:00] are, because you are more likely to be somebody who's giving them opioids. Right. People will rag on you if you're not gonna give 'em opioids, they'll give you a one star. and I find that absolutely fascinating and I'm, thank God I'm not in, in that system.

Yeah, I, I really, I, I, I, so anyway, the point is I have a perfect life and I wanna kill myself. or, you know, not like, like you said, it's like this quiet desperation that, 

Gigi Samed: um, 

Liz Treynor: that I wouldn't actively do that, but it's just like, uh, just get, just survive. Just survive. Um, and so it's interesting for me because it's like burnout is not my, the, the path that I take to depression mm-hmm.

Um, whereas I know that is a, a very common, unfortunately path for many of us, um, women physicians Yeah. Who are patient. because of all the things I was just talking about. So for me, it's just like, I know my brain is is different. And so there are times when it works really well, like right now. Mm-hmm.

when I love to [00:13:00] connect, when I love to interview amazing people like yourself. When I love and every morning there's things that I wanna share on Mind Surfer MD and I've wanted engaged and connect with people and help people, but there are other times. My whole mission in life is to stay alive the next day.

Um, and so there are many things that drew me to you, Gigi, but one was that you had posted so beautifully about a patient who was trying to die on you. And it's interesting because in retrospect, I realized a patient who's trying to die on you to an ER doc means so. Than to someone like me who was a history of depression, , mm-hmm.

So I was thinking she was, she was suicidal. But I realize now that it was, it meant something different. But it was such a, a beautiful, profound story that, um, yeah, that resonated with me and that made me want to interview you because you have a connection to something greater [00:14:00] than what we see with our eyes and 

something greater than what is right in front of us. And so I, I wanted to explore the woowoo a little bit with you too. I 

Gigi Samed: love, yeah, so, so I will, so if you, God, you said so. I'm like, okay, go down. I love being a woman, like multiple tabs open in my head at any given time. And we could have a conversation in five different directions.

Yes. Isn't it fun? So yes. And I'm like, oh my gosh. She said this and she said this, and I went. So just a few things like when you said for patient facing physicians, so. The reality is burnout is just one way, but ultimately we all get to the same place. And I think they used to call it a midlife crisis.

Mm-hmm. , and now it's just life. . Um, and we have different tags for it and different labels for it. Cuz we love labels. If I have a label for it, I know what I'm dealing with. I can fix it, I can heal it. You know, just ask any doctor, oh no, you have all these symptoms. Yes. We have to come up with one [00:15:00] diagnosis so then we can, you know, we have to.

Yeah. Um, but it's not just about being patient facing, it's, it's about becoming self facing. Mm-hmm. . Because I think especially we women, we have so many. demands and expectations on us, and a lot of them are self-inflicted. We're always comparing ourselves, as Alison Armstrong says, we're Al always comparing ourselves to the ideal woman.

You know, that paragon of virtue who obviously does it all well and doesn't just look happy, is happy. Mm-hmm. . And so it can happen in a vacuum. It can. Um, and I think you said something else about. For me, the, the biggest pain point is when I see physicians who are barely out of residency going, I don't wanna do this.

I quit. Like, how, how do we go through so many years of schooling and so many years of, and, and I just wanna empower them, like, make the choice if you wanna quit, quit, but [00:16:00] make sure you're quitting for you. Make sure you're truly quitting for you and not against something else. And as a rebel, I like, trust me, I, I do a lot of.

in the past, because I was gonna show you, and I'm gonna go against what you said until I realized, whoa, whoa, that, you know, it's kind of like being a teenager. When you get to that point where, you know, there's a, a stage where you have to say no to everything your parents say yes to. You just have to do the opposite because you think that's how you prove you're an individual.

And then one day you realize that you can actually agree with your parents and still be an individual. Yes. And so it's like, yes, like you can stay in the healthcare system and still be an individual, but it takes courage. It takes willingness. It takes becoming self facing because when we are. You know, it's a crazy, it's a line because there's a point where you're like outward facing and blaming everything else.

And then depression is anger turned inwards where it's all something wrong [00:17:00] with me. You know, in, in that post that I wrote when you said, you know, you, you saw it as, oh, she's trying to commit suicidal. Of course. Cuz that's the lens through which reading it and we don't exactly the glasses we're wearing because it's our, yes, it's our eyes.

like, hello, fish, what is water? You know, you ask a fish, where's the water in? The fish is like, what's water? What are you talking about? It's just air to me. Um, and so we don't recognize it until we get exposed to someone else or coaching or you know, it's just like, oh wait, what? This is not normal. Mm-hmm.

but this is how my, what do you mean that's not your go-to? I, that wouldn't have even occurred to me. Um, . And so to bring the woo into it. So to take it back even further, depression and burnout, like I think it's a lifetime thing. And I think many of us became overachiever. I'll speak for myself. I became an overachiever.

Oh yeah. Recovering 

Liz Treynor: perfectionist. Oh, 

Gigi Samed: [00:18:00] yeah. And a Oh yeah. And a caregiver and a perfectionist, and all of those things started in childhood and to some degree, we compartmentalized. . I went into survival. I didn't think it was survival. I thought I was just driven and motivated, and I put it aside and I was like, oh, I have the answer.

I've got the solution. Go do this, get married, have kids, go to school, get the mba, you know, and then I won't have to. I'll be out of survival mode. And we get all those things and instead of validating us, it's more. that I have no value without those things. Instead of validating me, it's more proof that there's something wrong with me.

Yeah. I used to say that the number of degrees I hold is inversely proportional to the low self-esteem I had. Yeah. The more things I collected, the more experiences I did, the more [00:19:00] you know, and it's, it's the old saying of before enlightenment, chop wood carry. After enlightenment. Wait, say that again. Say that again.

Before. Before enlightenment? Yes. You chop wood and carry water. Okay. After enlightenment, chop wood, carry water. And this is the biggest paradox that life before and after looks, I see exactly the same, but it feels completely different. So. , you can still get married, have kids get the degree, but when you're doing it from a full cup, it matters little.

It's like it is or it isn't. It takes nothing away from me as a person, whether I have the degrees or not. . And so I will, I'll tell you, I went and got my master's in business, my mba. So I could [00:20:00] tell the c e o of the hospital off in terms he could understand. You need me to un, you need me to speak your language.

Let me go learn the language and let me tell you how you effed up. Oh yeah. And then I realized, holy crap, there's so much I don't know. And I don't know that he could be doing much different than he is now. And it was like, 

Liz Treynor: Wow. Yeah. Yeah. I'm sure you're familiar with the work by Byron Katie. Oh, yes. It's such a simple but powerful framework.

It changed my life. Um mm-hmm. in one hour, the first chapter of her book, loving What Is, but yeah, the idea of, you know, asking yourself is something is true, that's bugging you and asking yourself, well, does it serve me to continue this thought? . And then is there any reason to continue thinking this thought and how would I feel if I didn't have this thought?

Mm-hmm. And then turning it around. That is the key part of it. Turning it around. Cuz I did the same exercise with my CEO I was so angry at our c e o [00:21:00] for not recognizing our value, for not understanding how much important we, how important we are to a patient care and not giving us a fucking raise for 20 years while they're giving themselves raise.

And for me, this exercise, turning it around was me recognizing I don't understand what it's like for my C E O. Mm-hmm. , I don't understand the pressures on my C E O. Yeah. And all of a sudden I had such compassion for that, that person that I hated. and it just, it absolutely dissolved. I, well, not a hundred percent, but

No, but it, but it really, but it was very powerful. So it was interesting, you, you saying, you know, you got the MBA just so you could go head to head with your CEO E and then found out you wouldn't have done it much differently than the CEO o was what it sounded like to me. I don't know if I 

Gigi Samed: heard that correctly, but No, absolutely.

You got, yeah. Yeah. And, and I think [00:22:00] that's why when you spoke about meditation, like. , it just connects you to your higher self. It puts you in a place of neutrality, you know? And I always say that true compassion comes from neutrality. You cannot be any, you cannot be compassionate. You cannot be understanding unless you are truly neutral.

Yeah, 

Liz Treynor: I've heard this. You cannot influence somebody when you're judging them. Amen. Wow. You cannot. you cannot when you're judging them. Mm-hmm. 

Gigi Samed: And we all have judgments for humans. Yes. We right. We are meaning making machines. We will make, we will make it mean something that you twitched your left 

Liz Treynor: eyebrow.

Oh yeah. I mean, studies have literally shown this. Like, it, it, it's so fascinating. Like when they, you know, these patients who have like the corpus callosum cut in half or something and they can't really. See what the right brain is seeing and they're laughing at a cartoon that they don't know why they're laughing.

Their brain will make up a reason even though they didn't see the cartoon. Mm-hmm. , it, it, it's just, [00:23:00] yeah. Our brains are meaning making machines and 99.999% of the time they're laughing wrong. Yes. So why do we torture ourselves? Right. Our, our brains 

Gigi Samed: are meaning making machines. And for those of us who've become physicians and healers and, you know, in the healing professions we come from, I should say, I come from, uh, a world where I had to make meaning to survive.

and, and again, it has nothing to do with necessarily abuse or, or trauma. I mean, people think that trauma has to be this great big accident, but it's like, no, it could be you wanted ice cream and your parents said no, and for some reason it landed in your system as I'm not allowed to have what I want, and that carries on.

And so like we, we create these meaning. That we then, our brain is amazing. It's gonna make us right. Okay. You think you're not good enough? Let me find you the proof. Oh, you think [00:24:00] you could do better? Let me find you the proof. I mean, the reticular activating system, it's proven you finally go by a Toyota or a blue car and suddenly Yes, they're everywhere.

Right, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, you know, we get there and all of a sudden our brain is like, see, I told. , you suck . 

Liz Treynor: Right. And that's the beauty of coaching, right? It's like shifting your brain to see evidence that actually serves you. Because that is always there too, right? It's like we can always look at what's wrong cuz there's always stuff that's wrong, but we can also turn the other way.

Mm-hmm. and choose to look at the sunshine over there. Yeah. and make it mean something different. 

Gigi Samed: Right. Regulating your nervous system. Yes. So a lot of it is the cognitive behavioral therapy part is amazing, and there has to be a somatic component with the body because mm-hmm. , um, you know, you can keep.

Thinking yourself into a new space and thinking yourself into a new space. But your body and your nervous system is wired the old way. So it [00:25:00] will continue continuously. That's like, you know, if you have 

Liz Treynor: Right, right. I can't thank myself happy when I have depression. I cannot thank myself happy. It just, it don't 

Gigi Samed: work.

Right, exactly. Um, cuz your brain is wired differently. Your body is wired differently and so it takes a lot of nervous. Regulation and rewiring. And that's the, that's the part that I didn't realize because I, I know you're like me, you're brilliant. Which means that we are great at mental masturbation.

That's what I call it when I talk to, I love that , mental masturbation, right? . I mean, I could stand, I could sit here and spend an hour with you on all the reasons why I don't wanna do my room instead of just doing my room like, whoa. But we, but I love them men. Like, I wanna understand and whoa, you know?

Yeah. Mental masturbation, baby. I'm a pro. Mm-hmm. , and I've had a lifetime of a cutting weight. Oh 

Liz Treynor: God, that's so funny. Yeah. I, um, yeah, I'm on, I'm on Prozac, [00:26:00] so it just, I, I just, I save all my orgasms for my husband . I literally was sex coach by Sonya Wright, uh, like two weeks ago, and she said, your home. as you need to masturbate more.

Well, I'm good at the mental kind . 

Gigi Samed: Yes, yes. But we're very good at living in our minds because Yes, it's painful living in our bodies. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. . And you know, I can't tell you how many times like working with someone and it's painful 

Liz Treynor: living in my mind sometimes too. God , 

Gigi Samed: but working with someone. Yeah.

Into a corner in our mind. . Yeah. I used to coming through addiction and back. It was like, the mind is, my mind is a very dangerous playground. It is not safe in there. Mm-hmm. 

Liz Treynor: guard your mind. That's another phrase I heard. 

Gigi Samed: Yeah. And I just had to reprogram it and, um, you know, just, I. But the things we don't understand are driving us.

It's like when, this is the reason I do a masterclass called [00:27:00] Understanding the Drive Behind. You're Driven. Cuz I used to think it's great that I'm so driven and I'm gonna get things done and then I'm like, oh crap, I'm driven. That means someone else is doing the driving if I'm driven 

Liz Treynor: who? Exactly.

Exactly. Yeah. I realized that recently too. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's insecurity driving. , 

Gigi Samed: it's insecurity driving. It's having to prove something. Driving. Yeah. It's never gonna be good enough. Cuz I'm a perfectionist driving. It's 

Liz Treynor: Elizabeth Gilbert says perfectionism is insecurity 

Gigi Samed: and high heels, . Yeah. And, and I, and I wrote that perfectionism is, I'm not good enough in disguise.

Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's, it's the, I'm hurting. Please don't hurt me by criticizing. . Yeah. Yeah. And if you criticize me, I'm gonna make it not hurt so much cuz I wasn't done yet cuz obviously it wasn't perfect. [00:28:00] Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm , it's, yeah. Um, and you know, just to bring it back to the whole nervous system, part of that is, you know, we were trained that way, you know, it was whatever circus you were trained in as, as a kid is what you were trained in.

And I was talking to someone a few weeks ago, Not even a client, but just in conversation. And he asked a question about like, how do we talk to these doctors? And I was like, okay, I don't think this is even about that. . So let's talk about this. Like what's, what's really going on there? How are you feeling when you're talking to these people and like the emotions?

And he's like, oh, it feels like this. And I'm like, and how is that familiar? And he was like, oh, that was how my parents always talked to me. I was like, Anne, how did it feel when you asked your parents for something? And he was like, oh God. I was like, this happened and I promised I would never ask for anything again.

And I said, so there like, you think you're dealing with. , how do I deal with this conversation? But your nervous system, your body is like, [00:29:00] oh crap, we're having to ask for something again. We're gonna be, um, rejected. We're not gonna have it. They know I'm not go like, and when I connected the dots to him, he was like, holy crap.

And so to me that's like the biggest piece is when we. when I can connect the dots. So when you said the woo part of me, this is part of the woo. Like my, I say that I am a high priestess who happens to wear a white coat, like medicine is just my way to serve love in God. Mm-hmm. , everything else is incidental.

And, and I use everything that's given to me and I can see the patterns. And whether it's my patients or a new friend or a client, it's like, oh. , let me show you where you are on the map. You think you're over here dealing with this thing and on the surface, yeah, your mind is dealing with this, but guess what?

Your whole body is stuck back in. I'm a 12 year old and am I gonna be allowed to go back to Bear Live with my parents? [00:30:00] Every time you get an email, you think you're stressed out about a fucking email. No. and it's like, let's connect the mind and the body. The, I mean at one point I did shamonic studies and I learned to do soul retrievals.

Why? Because our mind is at this mental adult level, but our body is back here where we left it after a trauma and a trauma could just be something that happened and I vowed I would never X, y, Z again. And it's like, okay, let's bring those two together cuz we've been cut off at the head. 

Liz Treynor: Oh yeah. Medicine teaches.

To to, yeah, yeah. To ignore our bodies, you know, not pee, not eat, not sleep. Mm-hmm. , right. And yeah. Um, yeah. Um, but, and the concept that, uh, the concept of, uh, of trauma not being a big t [00:31:00] trauma, that is, that was brand new to me just in the last month actually, that I always say, You know, I have no reason to be depressed.

I've had no trauma. And, um, it was actually, um, Jesse Mahoney who said, you know what? I disagree with that. You've had depression since you were 12. That's trauma. Mm-hmm. that my brain is. Different. I think it sees the world differently and there's beauty in it, and, um, but coming to embrace all those microtraumas, like just having a dad who grew up in the depression and is like, don't spend any money.

Mm-hmm. . And so having this fear of, of spending money, right? Like coaching is expensive, but goddammit, investing in me is the biggest, most important investment. And I, I just, 

Gigi Samed: uh, and you're rewiring it's cheap at. , you were told that you are not worth it. That's the message you got as a child. Don't have needs, don't ask for anything.

[00:32:00] Right. You don't have money. Don't make dad feel bad. And of course it was never, our parents never said those things, but that's how we internalized it. And so you saying, no, I am worth the investment, is reparenting that younger part of you? It's like, no, it's okay. You're worth it. You get to eat 

Liz Treynor: too. Right, right.

And my dad was an economist, so his whole thing. , you know, save for retirement cuz otherwise, Liz, you're gonna be a bag lady who can't afford to go to the movies. So like, I have this ingrained fear of being a bag lady. So when Medicare cuts our reimbursements, yet again, my fear is I'm gonna lose my house.

Mm-hmm. . And it's like, no. Right. Why is this happening for me? I'm gonna figure out other ways to be creative. And I also heard something recently, um, from Lofa, like, money doesn't give you security. It's our thoughts about. , right? Like if I have the feeling like, oh yeah, I can figure out ways to make money, I can figure out other ways to be creative and, and, and help people and still, [00:33:00] you know, keep my house right now, I'm not afraid.

it's so funny. 

Gigi Samed: Well, and, and you said something really profound and powerful there that, and I just wanna draw your attention to it because if you really take this in like it, it can change everything for you, your nervous system. in the belief that I don't get to have it all. I don't get to fully live until I retire.

And so even as you're spending money, even as you're doing these things, there is inside of you this war being waged of, oh God, I'm being disloyal to my dad and going against what he said, and I'm not gonna be able to rest and truly feel at peace until I've retired, until I've been. I've, I made it. I 

Liz Treynor: have to.

Yeah. And, and you know, and I know that's the way it is for a lot of people. I have to disagree just because I'm in a very, I'm very fortunate because I have worked [00:34:00] 60% time since I finished my fellowship and my, my residency back in 2002. So I've been in practice for, you know, 20 years now. And, um, I think that's why, you know, I, I semi-retired md right?

They, they teach, uh, real estate, but they're. , but the point is to be able to practice medicine on our own terms. And so like I, um, made the deliberate choice to make less money and work part-time. Mm-hmm. , and I'm telling you, having a four day weekend every week. Well now my kids are launched, so I'm working more to cover my partners, but it is so critical for my, um,

Let's see. For my, my sanity, seriously, my mental health is more important than anything else. It's more important than money. It's more important than anything else. Mm-hmm. And I need my sleep. I decided when I was 16, I'm not gonna deny myself sleep anymore. To stay up late writing papers. I need my sleep.

I literally dropped a class, like an AP English class. Cause I'm like, you know what, no, I did not sleep somewhere important. and I [00:35:00] need my exercise. You know, we're, I'm sitting in my little exercise studio, which was my son's room, but now it's where my bike is, my weights, and I do my body pump and I do my meditation.

I have a hanging upside down thing over there where I meditate. Yeah. I like to, I like the inversion table. I love inversions. Yoga's really fun, just standing upside down shifts our blood flow and blood flow, my thinking. Mm-hmm. . Yeah. But, um, but I gotta get, I have my routine. I gotta get my routine. It's like fundamental for.

Wellbeing. And so, but I know for a lot of us, we think, you know, it's like that arrival fallacy, right? Like, when I retire, everything's gonna be perfect, but really, mm-hmm , I'm very grateful and I knock on wood every single day and I tell my husband every single day how lucky I am. To have him in my life.

And I, I just, I, knock on wood, here's some wood. I always gotta find some wood. Yeah. . 

Gigi Samed: I usually knock on my own head. I'm like, there we go. Some wood, a handy wood. 

Liz Treynor: Um, but, uh, but yeah, so I mean, that's what I wish for everybody is to find that joy now. [00:36:00] Yeah. We don't have to wait for joy. Find it now. Mm-hmm. and now it's the ultimate currency.

Yeah. 

Gigi Samed: Yeah. And, and that's, you know, it, you found it. And I love that you did it so early. You're like, no, I, I matter. I need to do this. This is what I need to do to survive. You know why sad? 

Liz Treynor: I had lymphoma when I was a fellow at Stanford. Wow. I had a, I had a newborn. I was diagnosed with lymphoma the last month of my fellowship in surgical pathology.

I literally diagnosed somebody with the same thing I had a week before when I was on the hot seat at Stanford. and I remember thinking I worked so hard and saved everything, and I'm not even gonna get to enjoy my effing retirement. Hello. Life is now people. It's now, it's today. It's right now. The power of now is like such a powerful book, by the way.

It's, uh, Ecker Toller and highly, highly recommend Mike. And he says, suffering cannot exist in the. Because the suffering is when we're thinking in the future we're worried, anxious, or we're [00:37:00] remembering the past and then we're depressed because we're ruminating on the past. Yeah. But suffering cannot ex survive in the now and let's live now.

And so that the lymphoma like most terrifying, you know, year of my life, like feeling like and then being so depressed from the chemotherapy on top of having a history, depression, like thinking why are they wasting money on me? Anybody would be a better mother than I. , I literally wished somebody would murder me so I could die and it wouldn't be my fault.

That's how depressed I was. And that was like the worst side effect. But the point is having that kind of, yeah, it messes up the brain even more. The mine is already, you know, mine's already, I say mentally spiced, but um, but um, but the point is having that kind of, uh, crisis. Was actually like the greatest gift.

Right. I always, you know, say that, that, that, that the, this, the joy is like forged in the suffering cuz it's like then you appreciate things at a new level. Yeah. But, but because of that, that's why I work 60% time. [00:38:00] I'm like, you know what? I don't wanna do academics. I don't wanna be slaved to my desk. I'm gonna work 60%.

I literally negotiated for that. They were working for somebody full-time and I'm like, you know what? 

Yeah, 

Liz Treynor: you are fortunate if you want me. Yeah. So ladies, I, a gentlemen negotiate herself. If you don't ask, 

Gigi Samed: you won't get it. And there's things we don't ask cuz we don't think they're possible, but they're just, they're just waiting to be asked 

Liz Treynor: Exactly.

Exactly. 

Gigi Samed: Wow, Liz. I had no idea. Like, whoa. Yeah. So, yeah, and well, first of all, holy cow, like a newborn and lymphoma, like I Right. Talk about the extremes of hormones and chemo and, 

Liz Treynor: right, right. Andy was a preemie and I remember thinking, okay, I need a mother's group for preemies, and then I'm like, I need a mother's.

for preemies who've recently been diagnosed with cancer. . Mm-hmm. , I, I love my support groups. You know, like I had my cancer support group where I [00:39:00] got to meet many of the patients I've diagnosed in the month before. I'm not kidding. It was like, wow. Wow. On the other side of the microscope and 

Gigi Samed: validating of like the work that you do, like you literally save people Exactly.

When you diagnose it early and like Right. 

Liz Treynor: Right now. It was, it was profound. Good Lord. It was profound. Yeah. Yeah. So that's, that's why I changed my schedule, my life, my priorities. 

Gigi Samed: Yeah. So you had your Yeah, sort of, um, I call it the, the make or break moment early, you know, it's like when I went through the addiction and I lost everything and, you know, foreclosure, bankruptcy, it was like, okay, all right, now who?

Right. Without all the things are, you start over, right? I get stripped. Mm-hmm. and, and for you, you got stripped to, okay, who are you Really, what really matters? Wow. Right. This is just, 

Liz Treynor: yeah. Right. My heart. And the interesting thing is I found I was more depressed, [00:40:00] not being. Pathologist, like I found I was more depressed being home with my beautiful newborn mm-hmm.

Than being in the lab. So I actually only took six weeks. I only took my six weeks and I went back to the lab. I rearranged our schedule so that, or my schedule said I could do lighter rotations. Mm-hmm. , um, and then went back and did the hard one, you know, when my son was one instead of a newborn. But, um, but part of the point is like I love what I do so much, and it's something that gives me so much joy that.

it. It's like I never wanna retire. Like I feel like I'm already in this beautiful balance of being able to do everything that I love and being excited to go back to work on Wednesdays. Yeah. You know, 

Gigi Samed: so, and that's, yeah, I'm the same way. It's like, I thought I was burnt out from the system and from healthcare, but then during burnout I was like, no, I actually love taking care of patients.

But had built it up into this thing and mm-hmm. and so that's, What I love about what you just said, it's like, yeah, you, [00:41:00] the things we think are making it worse are actually sometimes the things that are keeping us afloat. And I'm the same way. It's like when I re my idea of retirement, I will still be doing er at least six days a month because I love it.

It's fun. It's, it gives me joy, 

Liz Treynor: it feeds my school. Thank you. Sweet love. Purpose. I love teaching. I love, I love my tumor boards. I love helping my doctors get the best care for their patients. Nothing gives me more joy. And figuring out some obscure cancer that nobody's heard of and then presenting it in my pathology society like I did last month.

Right. It's like, just play up. Yeah. It just gives me so much joy. Like, you know, like I diagnose something that, that most people would've missed that had implications for her getting screening colonoscopies cuz it was associated with a syndrome like that. Mm-hmm. , that has always been like, like my passion is like figuring out something.

That's not only gonna have implications for this diagnosis, but for that patient in other realms. [00:42:00] And that might have implications for her family, right? Like that, that is mm-hmm. . Yeah. That's amazing. I'm very great grateful that I get to do what I do, learn every day and all that good stuff, but I talk too much.

Gigi Samed: No, not at all. Are you kidding? We're women, we love to talk. Um, and I, and I lo like the, gosh, there was something you just said that just so. Um, gimme a minute cuz my, my brain's going in 10 different directions as well. Um, isn't this 

Liz Treynor: fun, ? 

Gigi Samed: It's, I love it. Yeah. The, the thing is like you and I had our like rock bottom moments.

Yeah. And I think because a lot of people don't have the rock bottom moments, or they don't have the big T trauma, they don't recognize it or they don't understand what they're going through. And so it's like, I wanna bring this to the mainstream because yeah, you shouldn't have to have a rock bottom moment, right.

To figure out who you really are, to figure out what really matters. To figure out, [00:43:00] you know, what have you been tolerating in your life. Mm-hmm. . It doesn't light you up and, and is eating away your energy. And, and that's, so for me, it's like my dream is to have this curriculum in medical schools all over the world.

And I would love to see medical students who are armed with their core values, who are know themselves, know themselves so deeply. That as they go through their career, the outer things can change, but they know who they are and they can keep, like I, I've worked in so many different systems and hospitals and EMRs and, but it doesn't matter anymore cuz I know who I am and I know what I need to make it feed my soul and I won't let it not feed me.

because I can't help anyone else if I'm not taken care of first. And like I see a world where they can have 30 year careers and, and not go through burnout [00:44:00] because they don't lose themselves. They don't cross their own boundaries. They don't dishonor themselves in order to, to get to the arrival fallacy.

It's like, no, let me tell you all the things that. Joined experience, like we have so much to teach and give back that would help prevent it from day one. And you know, people say to me, well, what about big pharma and, and this, and I'm like, I don't care about that. That's not my battle. That's somebody else's battle.

And it's like we said at the beginning, it's like when we take, when you take care, Us ourselves. Everything else takes care of itself. As a secondary thing, why am I gonna spend my energy fixing the secondary symptom? Instead of treating the primary diagnosis, which is why, you know, I call myself a sole surgeon and I'm also an iCoach, like iCoach people.

Like there's so much stuff. Yeah. It's the, 

Liz Treynor: yes. Coaching is un socializing us. I love that [00:45:00] comment. Yes. An unco 

Gigi Samed: un, like you don't need one more person to tell you what to do. You need one form person to give you permission to be, and it's just like, to not do it right, to not to fear yourself to say, fuck it.

Liz Treynor: Yeah. Like this podcast is about just being myself and just saying, fuck it. I, this is what matters to me. And I just, I just want, I just, I also just, I, you know, we have similar passions. I want to prevent physician suicide. I, that is more important to me than anything is. It's getting my voice out there and hopefully, you know, promoting, promoting your voice, promoting other physicians' voices who Yeah, can, can change lives with, with what they offer, which is, You know, the typical just antidepressants, right?

I I, they, they definitely have a place I use them. I've been on them since, you know, since I was 30. But I, um, but there's so much more that can help us rewire our thoughts and that can be so powerful. Um, [00:46:00] God, we can talk forever. I know this is so much fun, but I really want people to know how to find you.

I want people to hear about your, your masterclass, which is, uh, launching on March 1st, I think. Mm-hmm. , 

Gigi Samed: is that right? It's like, um, Pacific 7:00 PM Eastern. Yeah. Okay. Tell 

Liz Treynor: us more. Tell us more. All the things. 

Gigi Samed: All the things. Um, yeah, so. Gosh, I was just, I I, I have like five other topics I wanna go down. Oh, well let's keep going.

Love it. . No, no, no. It's like we, we've got, we've got, I know it was like, but I'm so glad we connected like this. This just is my heart and soul and like to hear your story and where we're at and you know, it's like you wanna stop position suicide i g two, but I wanna take it to the next level as well. And, and I wanna take it to the next level, which is I want them to have joy again.

Liz Treynor: Yes. Rediscover joy. That's my other, my other mission. Like I, I, yes. That's the whole point. Yeah. Right. So it's the ultimate currency, 

Gigi Samed: the, the first thing. So for me, it's like a stepwise process. And I, [00:47:00] I lo like the way you lit up about talking about the pathology and diagnosing things, I'm like, to me that's that level.

Ugh. Just like I can feel it in my heart and my soul, like the warmth in my chest, like when I do a soul diagnostic and people are like, holy cow. I had no idea I had these three like core patterns that have been running my whole life. Because it, it's like you said, it affects every part of their life.

It's not just this thing. Um, that, like that is, I, I feel. profoundly. Like this is why God put me on this earth to make a difference, to change a life, to, to change the world, but one person at a time. Like I love connection, that's my soul. Food and service, like true service, not sacrifice, not martyrdom, but service and [00:48:00] to serve someone else's highest potential in their their soul's mission like I am so, Convinced that when someone sits with me, it's because we've had a sole contract and a sole appointment and I never know what that's for.

Whether it's five minutes or two words that I'm gonna say, or we're in each other's, you know, lives for a lifetime or whatever it is. It's like my job is to leave every life better for having been in it, and I don't need to know how. Cuz God's gonna just tell me, you know, it's like I'm gonna just know.

what to say, and it comes out in synchronicity and we find like so much in common. And so Medical School for the Soul is the program and. But I start, like we talked about, I want people to understand why they're driven. I want them to understand, I've done masterclass on the high price of perfectionism, you know, beyond burnout.

And, and this one, it's like, I'm like, as I'm crystallizing, it's like, okay, we gotta start with [00:49:00] why, why am I so driven? And what is it beyond the system? Beyond like, let's get into, let me help you unravel un. Untangle, it's that ball of yarn and it's, it's a three hour masterclass, March 1st. Uh, I'm doing when, when conjunction with, um, Dr.

Sharon McLoughlin, female physician entrepreneurs, and it'll be 4:00 PM Pacific, 7:00 PM Eastern, three hours. And we're gonna go deep into, okay. Let's understand the drive behind you're driven. We're gonna do some interaction, we're gonna do an exercise, we'll do a guided visualization because each person has a different reason.

They're driven. And so just like, you can't just say, okay, let's give one antidepressant to everybody. It's like, no, the prescription varies. And I am nothing if not a master physician, I don't give you here, oh, you have this, you get the same thing every, you know, everybody else does. . [00:50:00] And so the masterclass is gonna be three hours and I can't wait to have people on it and just show them, lead them back to themselves.

It's all about becoming self-facing and self-loving. And then in, um, the middle of March, I'm launching, so Medical School for the Soul is my three month signature program. And it's, it's innovative because the whole first month is physician know thyself cuz we think we know who we are. , but we know the labels and the masks and the, and the roles and the, the, all the inner whipping that we give ourselves.

Like, I should be this, I should be that. It's like, no, like who, who are we? And we. Take apart our core values and we, it's like get to know who we really are. And it's amazing because everyone who comes in gets the two hour Soul diagnostic based on this questionnaire. And it's a fun questionnaire. It's not like, oh, you know, I gotta do my SATs or my mcat.

It's just like, oh, what's your favorite color? And. These things that seem so obvious [00:51:00] and easy right 

Liz Treynor: now, it's teal . See 

Gigi Samed: Teal. He tells me so much about you. And people are like, oh, but it can be fun. Like healing can be light, healing can be easy, healing can be fun. And you get this two hours soul diagnostic.

And based on that, like when you go through, you're like, holy crap. Like I've thought these were my core values, but I realized, oh, oh, it's wait. I put safety because my nervous system is still in fight or. , but is that really a core value? And it's just like, it's amazing to watch them go through this three month process and then the second month it's like tapping into true power.

Okay? We've deconstructed, okay, who am I really now? Okay, well what? What is my power? How do I set a boundary? How do I have a conversation that normally I would shy away from because I don't do confrontation. , but it's just like, whoa, I, I'm realizing the cost and the price of not having that conversation or that I'm projecting and thinking they're gonna say this, but I never actually gave 'em a chance.

I never [00:52:00] asked. Like you said, if you don't ask, you never know. So the whole segment month is tapping into power, and then the third month is creating a life by design where, you know, each week builds on the week before. , you get to take everything you've learned about yourself. It's like blow away the, the wheat from the shaft and you decide, okay, this is truly who I stand for.

And I, you know, it's like it was so, it touches my heart when I see someone who starts with a core value of safety and at the end she goes, now I want a core value of fun because when I'm having fun, that means I'm safe. Cuz you can't have fun without safety. It's inherent. And I was like, yes. Like to find people, see people.

Step into their joy and the, and so, and this is the first time I'm going to do it as a self-study where they'll do, they'll get the sole diagnostic and they'll go through it on a self-paced module for 12, um, 12 weeks. And it's got, you know, c m e and it's tax deductible and all the things. And they'll get a group coaching once a week for with me.

[00:53:00] But it's like I'm realizing there's not enough of me to go around and this is so needed. And so it's like I'm. I've been asked. And so I'm creating it as a self-study so people can enroll on an ongoing basis, and I'm gonna launch that in March. So excited. 

Liz Treynor: I'm excited for that too. And, and I love the combination of the self-study where you can do it on your, you know, when it's comfortable and on, you know, on your own schedule.

And then the group coaching I've found to be so powerful, um, and, and just so beneficial hearing. , basically hearing the common humanity of other people's pain. Right? Yeah. And, and you know, we talked a little bit about way back earlier that, you know, we, we basically, you know, the phrase is we compare our insights to other people's outsides.

Oh. And right, like, we think everybody else is all perfect and they figured it out. And I'm the only one who's a mess. But like with the group coaching, we realize, oh my god, I, I see myself in her [00:54:00] and, and in her, and in her, and it's just loving, loving that common humanity that all of us suffer. That's just part of being alive.

It's part of the beauty of being alive, right? Because without this, that part, we don't get the joy, right? Mm-hmm. . So, um, at least that's what I tell myself. , no, 

Gigi Samed: I, I agree a thousand percent because Dr. Gaba Monte says the, uh, the opposite or the cure for addiction is connect. and I think the cure for a lot of things is connection because we put ourselves into the isolation and we're taught, especially as women physicians, it's like, I don't have a problem.

I got this. Don't worry about me. I'm okay. and we're not okay. . And, and then realizing that there's others just like us, like that tribe, that connection that, like you said, it's like, oh wow, she just spoke exactly what I'm thinking. How does this person who looks nothing like me know what I'm thinking? And it just, it takes so much pressure off to [00:55:00] realize we're normal.

Right? So, Yeah. Yeah. So, um, yeah, so the website, my website is www dr gigi summited.com, so D R G I G I S A M E d.com. Um, the best place to interact with me is on Facebook or Instagram. So Insta is at D R G i G i S A M e D at Dr. Gigi. And then Facebook is where I'll be posting for the masterclass on March 1st, and I'll.

Put some Facebook lives and things leading up to that as well. So, yeah. Uh, and it's a Gigi app, so there we. Awesome. 

Liz Treynor: Awesome. Yeah, and I was looking at your website right before our interview and I was trying to figure out how to, uh, register for Master or or for Medical School for the Soul. And so maybe it's, it's like you have to do the masterclass to jump to that or something.

So, uh, I just wanted to see. 

Gigi Samed: Yeah, absolutely. Thank you for, um, [00:56:00] so I have that on the back burner. I haven't opened the launch in the wait list yet. I wanted to, you know, honor the integrity of the masterclass that I'm doing with Dr. Sharon first. So after we do the masterclass on March 1st, then I'll open the link for medical school, for the sole.

Um, and I want people to come through the masterclass because for me it's like this is a relationship. I want you to experience me. I want you. , you know, I trust that your soul is gonna take you where you need to be. And if you're meant to work with me, you will. And yeah, so for me, it's come play, come see, let's interact, come 

Liz Treynor: explore.

Right. Let's be curious. Have some 

Gigi Samed: fun, right? Yeah. And I, I can send you a link to, I'll have it live in a couple of weeks, a page that will, um, help people set up the calls and everything else. 

Liz Treynor: Beautiful. Just beautiful. I, I'm, I'm so excited to connect with you, Gigi. I, I'm so grateful for your time today. I'm so in [00:57:00] love with what you're doing for, for women physicians and that.

also trickles down to our patients, right? So like the impact each of us has is so much larger than any of us realize. And anyway, I'm just, I'm so grateful to connect with you. This has been like just this warm, fuzzy, joyous feeling in my chest all morning and, and I just, Anyway. Thank you 

Gigi Samed: so much. Thank, thank you for your transparency.

Thank you for your courage. Thank you for your honesty. Thank you for who you be. Thank you for being willing to just date and hibernate nine months every year to come back and give us joy. Thank you. 

Liz Treynor: Yeah. Wow. Well, please everybody. I'm gonna have the length in the show notes and I, I can't more strongly encourage.

all of you to, to check out her masterclass. I think as physicians, almost by definition, we're recovering perfectionists or at least still perfectionists. So, so, yes, and it's free, so I, I just strongly recommend everybody check her out. All right. Thank you. [00:58:00] Take care. Bye to see you there. Bye bye.