The Mysterious Death Of Thelma Todd Ft. Steve Cubine and Nan McNamara From Beneath The Hollywood Sign

Our guests are Steve Cubine and Nan McNamara from the hit podcast "From Beneath The Hollywood Sign." Every week, Steve and Nan dive into the magical, mysterious, amusing, and sometimes bizarre tales of Old Hollywood. If you're a fan of the Golden Era of Old Hollywood, "From Beneath The Hollywood Sign" is a podcast you won't want to miss. So, follow and listen to them - we highly recommend it.

On today’s show, we discuss the mysterious death of Thelma Todd and whether her screenwriter/director boyfriend, Roland West, had something to do with it. You can enjoy this episode, but we highly recommend listening to the previous three episodes we did on Thelma Todd, where we go into much more detail. Those episodes are 47, 48, and 57. 

Alert: This episode discusses suicide. If you need help, text or call 988 Suicide & Crisis Lifeline.

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Transcript

0:06

Hello, my name is Sandy Adamidis, the social media director for the Page International Screenwriting Awards and your host for the Writers Hangout, a podcast that celebrates the many From inspiration to the first draft, revising, getting the project made, and everything in between. We'll talk to the best and the brightest in the entertainment industry, and create a space where you can hang out, learn from the pros, and have fun. hey writers, it's Sandy. We have a fantastic show lined up for you. Our guests are Steve Cubine and Nan McNamara from the hit podcast From Beneath the Hollywood Sign. Every week, Steve and Nan dive into the magical, mysterious, amusing, and sometimes bizarre tales of old Hollywood. If you're a fan of the Golden Era of Old Hollywood, From Beneath the Hollywood Sign is a podcast you won't want to miss. So follow and listen to them. On today's show, we discuss the mysterious death of Thelma Todd and whether her screenwriter, director, boyfriend, Roland West, had something to do with it. You can enjoy this episode, but we highly recommend listening to previous three episodes we did on Thelma Todd, where we go into a lot more detail. Those episodes are 47, 48, and 57. We hope you come away from this episode as fascinated with Thelma Todd. Thelma Todd and her mysterious death as Nan, Steve, Terry, and I have become. One thing, trigger warning, we talk about suicide in this episode. If you're struggling, it's okay to share your feelings. Help is available. Text or call 988, the suicide and crisis lifeline. Let's start the show. Terry, it is a special day here at the Writer's Hangout. Because We have two wonderful, guests. You know, I noticed that right away. Did you? Uh huh. We have Steve Cubine and Nan McNamara yay, from Beneath the Hollywood Sign, one of our favorite podcasts. Oh, Well, right back at you. We love your pod as well. We do. Thank you for having us. We're so excited to be here. So, writers, if you remember, back to Christmas of 2022, we did three episodes about actress Thelma Todd and her screenwriter director boyfriend, Roland West. you can listen to this episode and enjoy it, but I highly recommend hitting pause and going back to listen to episode 46, 47, and 57. jump to 2023 and I start listening to a podcast called From Beneath the Hollywood Sign. Thank you for listening. Oh, thank you so much. Comes out every Sunday. Correct. created and hosted by our guests as we mentioned Stephen Nann and And I love you two so much. Every time I listen to an episode of your podcast, I would think to myself, I wonder what Nan and Steve have to say about Thelma Todd's Death slash murder. We have thoughts. We have thoughts. But we also have to say that you guys did such a fantastic job covering it in those three episodes. So to your listeners, if they haven't heard those episodes, they are fascinating. Yes. Go back and watch them. They're so good. Really good. Thank you. Now, let's kick off by revisiting the key points Terry, will you do that? I will. Thelma Todd, an actress and businesswoman, was born on July 29, 1906 in Lawrence, Massachusetts. Her sharp comic timing helped her find success in Hollywood. Thelma starred in movies with the Marx Brothers, Laurel and Hardy, and Zazu Pitts. Tragically, at the age of 29, Thelma died under suspicious circumstances. On Saturday, December 14, 1935, Thelma was last seen in Pacific Palisades. She spent the day Christmas shopping with her mother. We know how much that can take something out of person. She later attended a dinner hosted by Lepinos and their actress daughter Ida Lepino at the Trocadero In the early morning hours, Thelma's driver dropped her off in front of her sidewalk cafe on the Pacific Coast Highway where she lived in an ocean view apartment on the second level. On December 16th, at around 10 a. m., Thelma's assistant, Mae Whitehead, started her morning by going to the garage to drive Thelma's fae aden down the hill to Todd's apartment above the cafe. When Mae opened the garage, she discovered Thelma slumped over the steering wheel, deceased. On September 14th, A Saturday, the evening before her death, Thelma and Roland West, Thelma's on and off boyfriend and business partner in the cafe, had been fighting before she left for the Cafe Trocadero. He told Thelma to be home by 2 a. m. Women love that too, by the way. Yeah. See, that's a good thing. Yeah, tell me what time to be home. I'm happy. I'll be, I'll be checking that out. Thelma spotted her ex husband, Pat. DeChico, the son of the Broccoli King, I love, I love that, you know, carrot King rolls better. You gotta pick him. There's gotta be a Broccoli King gotta go with your vegetable with his new girlfriend, Thelma left embarrassed and humiliated because she thought he would be her date for the evening. Thelma left the Cafe Crocodero at around 3 a. m. The driver who dropped her off after the party said Thelma was unusually quiet and told The driver not to escort her to the door as usual. The coroner determined that Thelma died between 5 a. m. and 8 a. m. on Sunday from carbon monoxide Poisoning when she was discovered Her car was still engaged to be running, but was out of gas. She was found still wearing her party clothes, That's what I do too, by the way, from Saturday night, even though she had peas and carrots in her stomach. Interestingly enough, which weren't served at Cafe Trocadero. Ooh, intrigue. That is. It's all very interesting. You would think that's it. She just, it was a mistake. But there's so much more to this story. But to start us off, I found Thelma Todd's second book. Sidewalk Cafe Cocktail Menu. Ooh. Okay. Okay. Nan and Steve, I'm going to hand you, there's the menu. Okay. if we were podcasting from Thelma Todd's Sidewalk Cafe Cocktail Menu. What drink would you choose? Oh, wow. Oh boy. That's a tough one. as you look over the drink menu, I also want to point out that the logo for Thelma Todd's cafe is Quality is cheap at any price. I think I would work on that. That's fantastic. It's not quite what I think they meant. Corkage was a dollar fifty per person. I guess if you brought your own alcohol, that sounds like today's prices, doesn't it? It's very high. It does. Now, what drink would you have chosen? I think I'm going to go with gin smash. I'm not even sure I know what that is. But gin sounds like a very 30s kind of, thing to be drinking. And who doesn't love a beer? a good gin martini. Right? Exactly. But just look at the vermouth. Don't really put any vermouth in there. Steve, what drink would you have chosen? Oh, it's tough. Well, first of all, I love the prices on these drinks. 0. 40, 0. 35, 0. 50. Those are my kind of prices. Um, you know what? I'm intrigued by the Milk Punch. The Milk Punch sounds fascinating to me. Doesn't that sound like such a 1930s drink? How about you, Terry? I would go with the sidewalk fizz. It sounds like the most dangerous drink. Sounds like I'm not in the bar anymore. And I'm walking around fizzed. Now, Stephen Nann, Would it surprise you to learn that Thelma Todd was only 29 years old when she died? Well, I was going to say she packed so much in the 29 years. She really did. But it's funny. I, it makes me think also of like Carol Landis who also died at 29. I guess she was just, It's something about being blonde and beautiful and yeah in the world of Hollywood. Carol Landis is? Yes, Carol Landis was a wonderful up and coming Star from the 40s. She was under contract And she ended up committing suicide when she was 29 But it's also sort of a mysterious case because her lover was the very married Rex Harrison Who was married to Lily Palmer the actress and she? And a lot of people say that she killed herself over, Rex Harrison, ending their relationship, but there's just a lot of questions and mystery and unclear things about, what really happened to her. So it reminds me of this case. Lots of questions. Yeah. the other thing too about Thelma that's so amazing with her only being 29 is how many films she had already Made. I think it was over 120. So and some of them were shorts, many of them were shorts, but still, you know, she really to think of what her career was up until that point. What a tragedy that we don't get to experience what she could have done. Right. After that. Yeah. And there are some theories that she opened up the cafe because she was tired of being the blonde in Hollywood. I'm noticing since the me too movement has come forward and everybody's speaking more freely of what actresses have gone through in Hollywood, the whole laying the base of she was suicidal. What a weaponized element that was. I mean, and the facts of just what she was doing that day, her state of mind seemed to be Completely the furthest thing from being suicidal. I mean, I think there were reports that she had over 100 gifts under her tree to give to people. she was working, she was starting a new movie. Exactly. There was no signs whatsoever that she would be remotely suicidal. Right. But your point that But for women, quote, women, that we're just, if we die tragically or if we die unexpectedly, rather, it has to be suicide because, you know, we just feel things so deeply. Exactly. And it's very, um, interesting. Yeah. Misogynistic? Yeah, that's the word. How would you describe her life to someone who knows nothing about her? Well, it's funny. We were talking about her on the way over here. And the thing that I would say about her is she was one of the Greatest physical comedians that I think we've ever seen, and I don't think a lot of people know that about her. you go back and you look at some of those short films she did with Zazu Pitts and with also Patsy Kelly later. I mean, they were the precursors to Lucille Ball and Vivian Vance. And even later in our childhood, even Cindy Williams and Penny Marshall, it makes me wonder if those women had studied the Thelma Todd, Patsy Kelly. Or is as you pits shorts for inspiration because I think she was this incredible comedian. who I don't think really got appreciated for her skills. she was doing the same thing the boys were doing on a, on a grand level and just a skillfully just as, Brilliantly. Yes. Agreed. Agreed. And I also think you brought up something, Sandy. I think she was a businesswoman. And I think for that time period to open, as you said, open the cafe to be forward thinking to realize that, you know what? Hey, maybe I don't want to do this always or in those days, maybe my career is going to be over when I turn 30. Right. Um, you know, I think that's another aspect of her that is really fascinating for a woman of that time period. She was quite the entrepreneur, I think. also, she had the most wonderful personality, I keep reading that she was bubbly, made you feel comfortable, Right. Just always the life of the party. Yeah. Yeah, and it seems like She still had a really great relationship with her mother as well that her mother moved out here She seemed to take care of her. So I love that aspect. I'm not sure how much other family she had but Yeah, they seem to be very close. She had spent the day with her mother. Yeah, I love that. Shop with your mother. They rode, they were bringing her back home. In fact, she even wanted to stay with her mother and drop her off in Fountain. I don't know about you guys, but I love to know the streets, the houses. I know. I love that. Because on Fountain, those buildings that are still there, I've always dreamed of living in one of them. Yes. It seems like they had a really good relationship and, her mom was 56. I know. Oh my gosh. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. Do you have a favorite movie of Thelma's? I revisited some of her films in preparation for chatting with you all and Certainly, the film that she did, which was Cary Grant's, uh, debut, which is, This is the Night. She is, and it's a feature, but she really is not given much to do. She kind of is like the third or fourth banana. you can see the potential that she has, but she really isn't the center of that film. Horse Feathers as, as well. She, you know, she is, we were chatting earlier, she is right there with Groucho. So she's right there physically with him every step of the way, giving him what he needs to get the laugh. She's not getting the laughs though. So it's really the shorts with Zazu, Zazu, I'm not sure how, but it's those shorts are the ones that I go back to and I think, wow, yes, this is where you really see, her potential and just that they were. something as, as you said, like the boys were doing. it was really remarkable. Her talent is so clear in those shorts if I was suggesting something to somebody to watch of hers, I would say, I did watch a little bit of the Roland West, who I'm sure we'll talk about what Roland West directed film. She was in, I believe it's called The Corsair, if I'm not mistaken, but it's very, very early. it's almost a silent film, but it has sound, Meaning the quality of it, the makeup on the men is very silent filmish. Um, and again, she's not given much to do. She's, she's kind of, off to the side. So. I don't know. Steve, did you have? And you know, I have to agree with you. I always go back to those shorts. Because I think in a lot of the feature films, she was just the girl. And I don't think she ever had the opportunity to show her comedic brilliance. But on these shorts, Boy, when they let her do her thing with Zazu, Zazu, Pitts, and, Patchy Kelly later, boy, you really see the genius of her. You know, in particular, there's one short that I just love. Have you guys seen the Soiler? Yes. From 1932? There is a revolving door segment that is one of the most brilliantly staged, brilliantly acted, choreographed things you will ever see and it's good. I love a revolving door bit. Yeah, that kid right? You know it involves a ladder and a janitor and a woman's skirt comes down and it is genius and it just shows you she could handle anything. Slapstick comedy just as well as any of the fellas. She sure did have a lot of roles where her dress would come off Which was very interesting every all every kind of way that it could come off and this is the night it came off There's another short and it's about All these dates take them to Coney Island. I forget the name of it, but it's always about, they're going through the fun house and the air blows their skirts up. Of course, they're going to find any way possible to get this woman's, you know, skirt up. I think anybody who's an actor or wanting to be an actor in comedy, to study what she does, it's really a wonderful education. Nan, you're an actress. There's acting, and there's acting with props. Yes. Acting with props. It's not easy. And physically, what she's doing is not easy either. I worked on my friend's short, um, a couple years ago, and all I had to do was walk across the room. I had to open a door and walk across the room. So I'm standing on the other side of the door, and I'm going, And I'm like, How do I walk? Where do I put my hands? I would imagine too, the production on those shorts, and I haven't looked it up, but I've got to believe they were brilliant. Cranking those things out. So it's not like they would get a lot of rehearsal. It's not like, you know, nowadays you're doing something in the theater or maybe not so much in film, but if you're doing a bit, you're going to get rehearsal and hire people. Now that technical juggler, whatever. Exactly. So I read a really interesting article about, after Zazu pits left and they re teamed her with Patsy Kelly, I guess their physical comedy was so physical and so rough and tumble that when Patsy came on board after one movie she was ready to quit because she went home bruised and cut and battered and beaten up and she's like, I can't do this. So that just shows you how committed they were to that comedic slapstick. Nobody from SAG was on set going, clearly not going, and no stunt people. I mean, yeah, Were you aware of Thelma Todd's death? Oh, yeah, yes, we were. We had actually talked about doing an episode about it for us. Well, yeah, it's funny because when I was a kid, I was that weird little kid that everybody else was into Star Wars and I was home, watching, Old movies and, and reading Helter Skelter and, Hollywood Babylon. So, yes, it was very much in my world, even as a kid, this death. And even when you Google now, mysterious celebrity deaths, you get, of course, Natalie Wood and you get Marilyn Monroe, but Thelma Todd is right, comes up right there. So it's interesting how many people don't know. Don't know about her, but she is definitely one of those that stands out and I would love if people would rediscover her because she was really kind of a genius her comedy. She would have to be too with all the types of things that were going on you have to be fairly stable. on the button to be with the Marx Brothers. Yeah. Totally agree. You have to know what you're doing. You have to know what those guys are about. They don't suffer fools. Because they really don't, I'm sure they didn't want anybody that was going to just walk into something. Right. They had to be ready to go. I'm sure they didn't slow down for anybody. No. So you either keep up or you're. Yes. Get out of the way. Agreed. On a side note, it's interesting that you mentioned Helter Skelter. Terry and I, every time we tell these stories, We run into Charles Manson all roads lead to Charles Manson. If you start telling stories like the late 50s, 60s, Charlie shows up. He just shows up. Yeah. You can't get rid of him. He's a creepy guy. Yeah. Even Angela Lansbury's daughter. with him. everywhere you look, even, Mrs. Potts is not safe from transmission. Did she date him? Was she? she got on drugs and she was sort of the wayward daughter and she went and kind of joined the hippie scene in the day and she started hanging out with Charlie and his girls and, but I think Angela Lansbury intervened and basically had her, taken away and maybe deprogrammed. I'm with Angela on that one. Let's talk about, the Café Trocadero. William Wilkerson, Owning both the Hollywood Reporter and the Cafe Trocadero. Brilliant, devious, or both? I'm voting Brilliant. Okay, okay. Because, if you're going to run the Hollywood Reporter, why not set yourself up for stories? Yeah, yeah. own the hot spot in town and have your reporters go and work the room and you'll get all the gossip. So, I think it's kind of genius. I mean, I'm sure it's probably a strange monopoly that maybe there was some conflict of interest, but I don't know. I'm going to vote Brilliant on that one. Okay. I'm going to, just because this is what we do, I'm going to vote devious because I think of him and yes, we, neither one of us have any love for this man. We, yeah, yeah. I think of him as somebody that if I ran into him. I wouldn't trust him at all. And part of that is we did an episode on, the blacklist. It wasn't about the blacklist specifically. It was about Maureen O'Hara kind of standing up for, The paper that was telling lies about her at the newspaper at the time or the magazine, confidential magazine. Yeah. But Wilkerson, started Billy's list in the Hollywood Reporter. He started the first blacklist. Get out of town. I did not know that. The Red Scare, the list, comes from Billy Wilkerson publishing in the Hollywood Reporter. People. Names of actors and directors and writers that he felt were important. Subversive to the American way of life. And that's what really started the whole thing with McCarthy and the committee and they took that list and then they ran with it. So I think of him as. You'd probably definitely want him on your side. If you were an actress in Hollywood in the 30s, you definitely want him, liking you and wanting to promote you. But I would stay at arm's length for sure. Yeah. Terry, you get to do the tiebreaker. Okay. Do you think it's Brilliant. Devious. I'm going with devious. I think that's a tradition here in Hollywood that just never seems to end. Somebody with, power that, wants what they want. You can only go back in time for one evening in 1934. Where do you go? The Trock, The Coconut Grove, or drugstore and why? Good question. Let's start with you, Dan. Yeah. Okay. All right. Um, I thought about this quite a lot, probably more than I should have. But I'm going to go with the Coconut Grove if I can get to pick the night in 1934. Oh, please. Because the Academy Awards were held at the Coconut Grove in 1934. And I would love to have gone then because Katherine Hepburn and Charles Lawton won for Best Actor and Best Actress. Wow. And I would, I would love to rub elbows with them. And then, I'd also love to have asked Frank Capra and George Cukor, who were there for their nominations, I would love to have said, what's your next movie and can I be in it? They didn't win that night, but they most likely would have been there. So, um, So you could have consoled them before you asked for the gig. And just looking at the photographs of the Coconut Grove, it just looks like, the most magical place. Yeah. So that would be my choice. So Nan, you would have a fabulous evening and you would work the room. I would work that room, baby. I would work that room. I am proud of you. Yeah. Thank you. Very proud. Steve. You know, it's a tough call because I would love to see all three, but I'm going to go with Schwab's Drugstore. Only because, it's depicted in Sunset Boulevard as such a refuge and haven for the William Holden character. and it seems so lively with all the hip kids. I want to check it out. I want to see that. And I also want to, finally, once and for all, debunk the rumor that Lana Turner was discovered you know, at Schwab's Drugstore. She was not. Yes, I was going to ask, what is your take? What is actually the story? She was actually discovered at a cafe called the Top Hat Cafe, which was right across the street from Hollywood High School. She was skipping her typing class. And she had gone over to the Top Hat, and Billy Wilkerson, who rears his head yet again. Kind of like Charles Manson. Yeah, kind of like Charles Manson. He's the one who discovered her there. So I would, debunk that rumor and just check out Schwab's, yeah, I think it'd be fun. Fascinating. Terry. Well, earlier I had a sidewalk fizz, so it'd be on the swabs for aspirins. That would be my single goal. I I'm with you. I think that's a spot where soaking that up for five minutes would be, yeah, something iconic. Sandy, what about you? Schwab's. Same reason, Sunset Boulevard, I would be looking for Joe. Oh, I know, Joe Gillis, Gillis, is that right? Joe Gillis. So I hope I get there before Joe Gillis, I know, goes swimming. Yes. Poor Joe. Poor Joe. My gosh. Now back to Thelma and the day that they found her the scene outside of the garage in Pastino Drive is heartbreaking and infuriating. Yeah. How do you feel the police handled the investigation? Now May found her, she was alerting people, and it seems like the telephones must have been ringing like crazy across Hollywood. Her mother arrived, friends arrived, West arrived, Chico arrived, they're all outside. We're not talking a big boulevard, this is a canyon road, up in the hills, Well, I think it turned into a circus. I think it became a media circus. The whole idea of the police chief popping in just long enough for a photo op with the dead body and then he leaves. I mean, I think that just kind of tells you, you know what that investigation was like. So many people were let in that garage who probably shouldn't have been. It's if they determined protocol that day. Yes, exactly, Terry. Yeah, that's fine. Let him in. Let Erwin West in for, you know, half an hour. Yeah. What was that about? Were the police enamored of he's, somebody in Hollywood? I mean, they couldn't have recognized him. Probably not, but I don't know. DiCicco got in there, too. Yeah, yeah. It almost feels like Even though Thelma was gone, people were still trying to make money off of her or fame off of her. I mean, yeah, the photos. And again, that the police jumped to suicide immediately without even A real investigation? Yeah, those photographs are really disturbing. Yeah, they're so disturbing. And Roland West, he opened the door. Now, I often wondered if Maybe assistant also opened the door, but being a woman of color back then, she was like, I did nothing. Cause you know, you're in the garage and you're looking for your boss. I'm trying to picture myself standing outside the passenger door. Like what's going on? Are you asleep? And then she opened the door. He opened the door and he, her body kept slumping and slumping. But the police seemed to be perfectly fine. That The position they then found her in was the position she died in. Sloppy. Yeah. Very sloppy. It was really sloppy. Yeah. Uh, wiped, the supposed blood from her mouth. That struck me. It's like, why would you do that? Why would you wipe her mouth like that? I just think a lot of things have evolved since then and, that's the biggest hunk is they have a protocol of things to do. And I don't think they were all there then. Yeah. And forensics were, non existent. Right. Pretty much for the most part. Yeah, so they didn't really look at these specific things in the right way. Right. And then it was combined with, the studio system got involved. The very next day, they came forward. Schnick, I think his name was, I'm forgetting. Yeah, Joseph Schnick, yeah. And basically would stand outside of Wes house and just say, Oops, it's a suicide. You know, Roland's the best. Thelma had issues. Case closed, West got his own doctor to say that Thelma had a heart problem and probably a heart attack. I'm just shocked by the rallying of, and because West was considered such a, talent, but what about Thelma? Yeah. Right. Yeah. Right. And nobody really can stand up for Thelma because her mother I'm sure was despondent. And if Roland was trying to cover up. He would have been the only person, probably, that would have been able to help her. And the studios are just going to take advantage of her death in whatever way they can maximize, you know. Right. The level of concern. Yeah. Nothing to see here, folks. Yes. How can this benefit us? Yeah. How can we, you know, repress this to not cause a scandal for our studio? Right. Right. Now Terry and I discussed the theories behind Thelma's cause of death. I love all the theories. I want to break them down here and get your opinions on each theory. The first one, bad move. Thelma was locked out of her apartment building so she went to Wes's garage and got into a car to stay warm. Unfortunately, she made the fatal mistake of running the engine while shutting the garage door. And just to do a quick review, there was the building and out back was a 210 steps that went up to the road. And then there was a garage and a house that was West's house. West would sometimes sleep down where Thelma was because supposedly they were involved, but he also had a house. He also had a wife. It was complicated. Mm hmm. Yes. Very complicated. So, Thelma is just walking up these steps in an Evie gown, three o'clock in the morning. Two hundred. What do you think? Steps. Right. Yeah. Wouldn't. Well. Not smet. Yeah. And there were reports that the shoes that she had on did not show any signs of scuffing or anything. I don't think you can go up 271 steps and not scuff a shoe. Yeah. And not dance all night. And dance all night. You're right Sandy. And not dance all night. And you've had alcohol. So I'm thinking no. it's very, very cold by the beach. Yes. Especially in December. And you're climbing up this hillside. Mm hmm. it makes me wonder. And it's something that your friend, the forensic investigator said on that episode was that people in that era were very aware of the dangers of carbon monoxide in closed spaces. So being an intelligent woman that I think we all agree she was. I think she would've been aware of those dangers. So I don't know that she would've just locked herself in a garage and I'm cold. Let's turn on the engine. I don't know. Although, if, if she was a little tipsy and she was tired because she had had a full day, I think, and locked those 271 stairs. Yeah. And she walked those stairs after dancing all night, having a tooth distracted. I was gonna say, that's right. She had the tooth, she had dental work, she went shopping, and then she had the party and all of that. So she had a big day. She might, it was a full day. She might not have been thinking. Completely, you know, clearly in terms of that. And, like you said, I do think if she's as sharp as I'm guessing, someone that can do the things that she's doing professionally, I think she's probably aware of the don'ts. Yeah. And I think shutting the door and having the car on is one of those. Yeah. She knew that. Yeah, I think she knew that. So I'd, I'd, I'd ditch that one. The other thing that's interesting, you know, you brought up the supposed heart issue that she had. And I think her mother even said she had a heart issue in one of the reports. Yeah. But what I question about that is, she was able to do all this physical comedy, all, I mean, this is not easy stuff and this takes stamina and you're doing it over and over again. I mean, maybe they didn't do a lot of takes, but I would think that there would have been signs of that being a real issue prior to this. Nowadays, you have to have a physical before you start a production. Was there anything like that back then? No, no, there was nothing like that back then. They didn't have the unions to really dictate those things. So, yeah, it was the wild, wild west. And the doctor had to put his cigarette down. Yes, exactly. Hold on a second. That's funny. suicide. Suicide. Thelma killed herself in the garage of her lover. No way. No way. No way. No enormous motive problem. Yes, exactly. There was just no nothing to indicate that that woman was Remotely suicidal. I loved though what Kyle said about the idea of suicide. Many of us think, and he's in the biz, many of us think suicide is always planned in advance and that there is more, there are more suicides that are based on impulsive, an event that happens. It's an impulsive thing more than I'm going to plan this out. I think he mentioned a statistic, but. It was over 50 percent or at least 50 percent where something happens and you just decide to do it as opposed to planning it. You walk up all these stairs. Right. I'm not doing this again. I'm not doing this again. But even. That's hilarious. Even given that, I'm with you. I just don't see that happening. Yeah. Yeah, what would get her there? She had a lovely evening. She's fighting with Wes. We don't know how, complicated that relationship was. And then there was the talk of the crossword she exchanged at the rest, at the Trocadero with Pat DiCicco. Exactly. I guess we're supposed to think that might have caused her to rush home and run 271 stairs and kill herself? Right. Thelma, I don't know, she did seem to be excited maybe to meet up with him again. It could just be to say, look how great I'm doing without you. I have no idea. But he did embarrass her. And Yeah. but, yes, maybe she was depressed. She gets back home. She's locked out. She fights with Wes. Maybe she doesn't. But she has a dog she very, very, very much cares about. Yes. So, um, I don't. That changes everything for me. That changes everything. You don't leave your dog. No, no, no, no, no. With your dog. Exactly. um, so maybe she isn't in the garage and she's, I'm 29 years old, I'm unhappy, I can't even get into my own apartment. I danced all night. I drink champagne with fabulous people and I'm making movies and I'm beautiful and young and wealthy and, yeah, My wife and I always bring up this one thing, especially about somebody who seems to be struggling in In the news you'd like you think and we both come to the the idea that some people get used to a high level of conflict and they roll with it. She does seem like somebody who rolls with it. getting a tooth pulled. That would have been a big thing for me. I would have probably settled in after that and said, well, she had a resilience that doesn't really give you any indication that she would have the perfect, the perfect word resilience. it takes a village. Thelma was murdered by. Either jealous West, possible, abusive to Chico, possible, or West's wife, Carmen. The Chicago Tribune claimed that Carmen threatened to kill Todd for squandering money at the restaurant where she and her husband West were business partners. I don't think that Chico has a motive, really. I guess if they had gotten in some sort of physical thing and he had gotten so angry, it wasn't premeditated. He could, but there's no indication that he was anywhere near her. I don't think there was some talk about her being on the beach with him and arguing with him. But if you're on the beach in a gown like that, you're going to have sand on your shoes. Great point. Sand in the car. something. And there's going to be, I think, more of an indication of he hit her or he strangled her And so there wasn't, I mean, I know there were things with her nose, but that wouldn't have killed her, you know, if he had locked her in the garage and turned on the car, perhaps she would have been passed out, but he had no guarantee that she wouldn't have woken up before and turn the ignition on. Yeah, and I don't buy Carmen either because I think Thelma could have been part of her meal ticket. You don't, the reason that cafe was so popular is because it's called Thelma Todd's Cafe, not Carmen's Cafe. Right. It's called the Golden Goose. It would have been short sighted. Again, crime of passion, maybe, but, um, I don't buy that. I don't know if that event actually happened that night. I can just see you now. Yeah, any stirring was all of a sudden had to be dealt with. Yes. Well, I am curious though Did have you in your research Sandy? Did you ever find did they offer an alibi for Carmen for the night? That she was killed. No, but I don't even think she was premise. Oh, she wasn't living in the house at the time and she wasn't living at the time the complex. Interesting. That's interesting. So, Roland and Carmen were already estranged, even though they were married, were they estranged They were estranged. They were not living together. Carmen was living, at another location. Probably in another fabulous house. Did I read somewhere that in the main house on top of the hill were her parents living there? Carmen's parents? Did I read that somewhere that Carmen's parents live there? You know, I'm not familiar with that, but it wouldn't surprise me. I don't know. Everybody seemed to just come and go. And these places were so big. I'm living on the beach. I'm not living on the beach. Yeah. Yeah. I'm everywhere. Really would love to see what the view must have been like from our apartment. Yes. Don't you still get an eerie feeling when you drive by that building? Because it's like it's stopped in time. It hasn't changed. Yeah. I still get this weird, eerie vibe when I see it. Humanistos Prize people are there now. The I wondered who had that. The Paulists. Yeah, the Paulists are there. And the building facade at least looks very, very much the same. Place your bets lucky Luciano Wanted to set up a casino on the third floor of Thelma's restaurant when Thelma said no lucky had Thelma killed this theory is supposes that after Thelma was dropped off at the cafe, someone with ties to Lucky picked her up again, killed her, and put her in Wes's garage. What was the casino situation at that time? Did you have a casino in Los Angeles then? you know, I didn't think about that. It could have been one of those, it was hidden. I was going to say like a speakeasy type situation because I don't think. Gambling was legal in Los Angeles. Back then they had the boats and you would go offshore. You had to be off by a certain mile. I don't know. On this one, I'm just going to jump in. To me, Lucky would have had one of his henchmen do the job. Of course. And to my way of thinking, That would involve multiple people knowing, and I feel like something would have come out about it by now. I also think there would have been more evidence that would have shown that. I don't know how good they were at hiding that type of information. You know murder. I think they made it clear. Yeah. I agree with you, Nan. I think there would have been more evidence. And I think that somebody in that organization would have leaked out almost in a braggish way. Like, yeah, I'm the one that iced, hottie toddy and that never, ever materialized. At some point. Yeah. Yeah. She's right. Yeah. Somebody would have bragged about it. Potato theory. This might be my favorite one because it's so ridiculous. I had never heard of this before. Me either. Me either. We talked with forensic death investigator, Kyle Finney. And in his research, he found that director Hal Roach allegedly invented. the potato claws. Thelma had a weight problem, which probably meant that What? Maybe that she was normal sized. That's what I was trying to say. 29 year old woman. And her contract stated that if she gained more than five pounds, which by the way, that's a meal. should be fired. That is a meal. Were male actors, were they put under the same? Yeah, I would love to know. I'm gonna go out on a long pair and say no. No, of course not. this with possible drug use and a weak heart caused Thelma's death. Now, is this spud based drugs or something different? we've commented quite a few times about how active that day was. I've always suspected that cocaine was prevalent back then. Oh, yeah. Huge. Rampant. Huge. I think it was in Coca Cola at the time. Yeah. I mean, it wasn't illegal. It I mean, drug use and heart problem would be a problem, but do you think there were drugs involved in Thelma's life? I don't think I've researched enough to really make it even an educated guess. I mean, you know, she was certainly part of that party scene. So possibly, yeah, I mean, I also think, I know Kyle talked about the drug that was prevalent. for weight loss back then, which sounded absolutely scary. I can't remember the name of it, but it basically eats your stomach away or something. I mean, it eats your insides. I'm not saying that she was on that, but I do think the lifestyle she had, the people she hung out with, they would have had access to all of that and this woman worked hard. She would film and then she would have the cafe. She would need something to keep herself at that pace, I would think. Yeah. So I would imagine drugs were something in her life. I don't think she was an addict necessarily. I have nothing to base that on. But I'm thinking there's more than caffeine in her life, you know, I'm thinking more than a couple cups of coffee, maybe, yes, yeah, yes. But I, this, this potato clause just infuriates me, I just needed to say that. I know, it is, it's so ridiculous. Well, you know, I found it really interesting on your episode, with Kyle, that I didn't realize that the same day that she was born, Found in the garage that there was a mass shooting the same day. So the police force exactly. Was split. Yeah. Which makes you wonder if maybe that's why the police did such a shoddy job. It was the A team in their investigation. Yeah. And the A team was on the, they got the public servant who wiped out his coworkers, I guess. Right, right. the Hal Roach theory, boys will be boys. Hal Roach, the Hal Roach studio, very famous director, producer, comedies, little rascals, This is what Hal Roach years later said. West was very possessive and locked Thelma out to teach her a lesson. After he and Thelma argued, Thelma said she was going to a party, climbed up the stairs to the car. West locked her in the garage, not thinking she would die. I Um, because one of the things that doesn't make sense to me is if Roland West was in love with her or was very possessive of her, why, when she was gone and out of sight He never called anybody about her. He never asked about her. He never called her mother. Or the Lepinos. Or the Lepinos. Like, where was she? Did she ever come home? I'm frantic. She never returned. If he knew where she was, he wouldn't have had to do that. think he knew exactly where she was. I do too. This is the, this is the theory that I subscribe to. I think this one probably has the most, possibilities for being truthful. Is there a problem with Her just turning the car off and am I missing something if he shuts her in there and the car's on well I wonder if she just turns it off. Maybe she had been Incapacitated. Oh, and I don't know or she was inebriated fell asleep with the car on didn't think she was gonna fall asleep I don't know there was no Signs of, anyone hitting her in any way, right? Well, it depends on, on which source. I've heard some people that were on the scene said that her nose was broken and she had broken ribs and that they kind of covered that up. Who's to say? And then that there was something, her throat seemed to be raw or have something happening with her throat. I don't know. Now, one of the things that I read is, and it was LAist, it was KPCC now LAist, in their research on this, they said that West made a deathbed confession claiming that he had unknowingly locked Todd in the garage and that after, you know, Her funeral, she was cremated, leading people to wonder if there was a cover up. I think even Kyle said, the forensic investigator said, he couldn't get a hold of the autopsy report. You had to pay a bunch of money. Yeah. I could not find it. Yeah. I'd be very curious if we did a Freedom of Information Act request. if there's no autopsy report anywhere. I think, yeah, something, something, some cover up was happening, but I subscribe to this one more than any of the other theories. also the keys. She only had one key was found on her. She didn't have the deadbolt lock. Yeah. Which Wes admitted that he loved. He had deadbolted it. Yeah. She probably had one of those cute little small purses, you know, that they had back then and we still carry now. I'm so curious, what do you guys make about, and I'm fascinated by this element, the whole Mrs. Wallace Ford. on Sunday saying that the party in the valley she called her and it was her and she was going to come to her party with a guest. What do you guys make of that? I can't figure that out at all. That's the one thing that hangs me up because I don't think this is a woman that would have made this up. But did somebody impersonate Thelma Todd to throw the party? You know, the trail off or she called herself in that phone call. At least what Mrs Ford said. She called herself the hot toddy, which she hated. She hated that word. So I want to say it was somebody impersonating her. I don't know. I don't know. Or did she want to get in on the act? Did she want a little publicity for herself and make the story up? I think she really did believe that she got that phone call. She may have messed up the day. I think she wanted to be part of it. But really believed what she was saying. Yeah, what's that whole adage that everybody wants a little piece of tragedy? Yeah, it makes them feel Part of it feel a part of it I also because I'm always intrigued also by the cigar store owner that came out of nowhere Like I didn't know about that. he said she came in. Yeah, actually use the phone Yeah, was he also just wanting to horn in on the notoriety? and we have to remember it was, such the product of his time, she came in, what did he say, desperate? Yes. And asked him to place the call. Because I guess a lady didn't Go in a phone booth? A public telephone, I don't know what to say. If I ever walked into a 7 Eleven and said Could you place a phone call for me? They would hand you a Slurpee and send you on your way. Yes. And when she was leaving the Trocadero, she did turn to Sid Grauman and said, you know, call Roland and tell him I'm on my way home. Wow. I'm going to do that all week. I'm going to try that all week this week. Terry, please syscall, please. Honey, please call for me. Use my cell phone, please call. show of hands, of all the theories, I'll start. I have my hand up, Roland West. Yeah, I'm rolling with Roland. I am team Roland. I think I have to go with the team Yeah, now did Roland West do it on purpose or was it an accident? I think it was an accident. It was an accident. Yeah, I Think it was an accident. Okay, I think it's probably but I think he was Pissy at the time so I yeah, you know because he said being home by two and she played with the clock a little bit There I think he has been a bad mood about it I think maybe his bad behavior should be considered part of it. I think this is a good, reminder that nothing good ever happens after midnight. So you need to be home and in bed, right? Because if she had been home and in bed, I bet she wouldn't have died. But 29, nothing good happened until after midnight. Right. I agree. After hours clubs are the best. That really is when things get fun. but the tragedy that everyone looked away and it was just easy to say Roland doesn't, Roland deserves to Thelma's gone. Let's just call it a day. Yeah. Yeah, that Yeah, I want justice. Yeah, there was no justice. No justice for Thelma. Yeah, which is it's frustrating. I could talk about this for hours and hours. In fact, we're going to turn off the mics, and we're going to go a little more just us. There are sleeping bags and potato chips, so it's going to be a great night. Before we go, would you talk a little bit about Beneath the Hollywood Sign? Well, it started with Steve's blog. Steve, has had a blog about Old Hollywood for about five years. We've been friends for 20 years. Yeah, 20 years. And we, got together and just very, I just sort of inserted myself in his, in his life. I raised, when he said he wanted to turn his blog into a podcast, I, Kind of quickly raised my hand and my husband was there and we, my husband has a podcast as well called The Shallow End. Oh cool. What's The Shallow End about? The Shallow End is do you know what the Darwin Awards are? They tell true stories. It's a co hosting with his partner Jethro and, They tell true stories about people that do very stupid things. So it's humorous. It can also be a cautionary tale. It can get a little salty, but it's a really fun. It's a comedy based on truth. Really funny. So definitely going to be listening to that. Good, good. So we got together through that and both having obviously this love of film and classic cinema. And, we were, We have just so enjoyed getting to tell stories about people like Thelma, as you said, one of Steve's passions has always been, I should let you speak for yourself, but I'm going to say he loves to bring to the forefront people that you might not necessarily know. So our podcast may not ever do an episode on Catherine Hepburn. But we certainly because there are lots of people have covered her and we love her but we'll cover somebody like Robert Walker or Carolandus or Carolandus or we love a theme we have on Sunday same day as this drops an episode on war movies giving tribute to Our fallen heroes. So our favorite war films. We have a Mother's Day episode where we talk about bad mamas and good mamas and Yeah. So, yeah, yeah. Yeah. It's just been this wonderful thing that just sort of organically happened with us. And, I was curious about, cause I knew nothing about the podcast world. This was all new terrain for me and, Nan and Lindsay were so gracious and kind to really, show me the ropes and we just have created this, from beneath the Hollywood sign and we're having a blast doing it. man, Steve, thank you so much. Thank you. It was a pleasure. So much fun. You guys. Thank you. Thank you. And that's a wrap for the Writer's Hangout. Thanks so much for listening. If you enjoyed the show, please take a moment to leave us a review on Apple Podcasts. Your positive feedback will help us keep the show going so we can continue bringing you more future episodes. Remember, keep writing. The world needs your stories. The Writers Hangout is sponsored by the Page International Screenwriting Awards, with executive producer Kristen Overn, producer Sandy Adamides, and myself, Terry Sampson. And our music is composed by Ethan Stoller.