#87 - Corinne Collier: Creating Connections

To help us kick off Season 8 of Enrichment for the Real World, we're joined by our very own Corinne Collier, a behavior consultant and Client Experiences Manager at Pet Harmony. 

In this episode you're going to hear Emily and Corinne talk about: 

• Corinne and Emily fangirling over our own team
• Leadership and teaching aren’t zero-sum games
• Connection is the throughline to everything we do
• Data tracking helps you bring in more clients

You can find the full episode show notes here.

On average, it takes our team 15 minutes to write a training plan. And that's not because we're special. We teach other professionals how we do this and they give us the same feedback, an effective training plan in only 15 minutes.

If that sounds like exactly what you need right now, then join our 3-Day Challenge: The 15-Minute Training Plan.

Just think about all the time you're about to save.

Transcript

[00:00:00] Corinne: I really love for people to just approach things with questions rather than with statements first. Even if your statement stays the same and even if your perception doesn't change and even if your approach doesn't change, if your first instinct can change to questions instead of statements, I think that everyone's going to be able to have a better understanding of what is actually being talked about, rather than these other little subtexts that we think the other person is saying.

[00:00:26] Allie: Welcome to Enrichment for the Real World, the podcast devoted to improving the quality of life of pets and their people through enrichment. We are your hosts, Allie Bender...

[00:00:43] Emily: ...and I'm Emily Strong...

[00:00:44] Allie: ...and we are here to challenge and expand your view of what enrichment is, what enrichment can be and what enrichment can do for you and the animals in your lives. Let's get started.

Thank you for joining us for today's episode of Enrichment for the Real World, and I want to thank you for rating, reviewing, and subscribing wherever you listen to podcasts.

The voice you heard at the beginning of today's episode was Corinne Collier. Corinne Collier, she, her, is a dog trainer and consultant for us, Pet Harmony. She began her dog training journey after a routine volunteer shift at the Humane Society ended in adopting her delightfully naughty pup, Opie.

Since then, Corinne has dedicated herself to studying science-based, positive reinforcement training. Corinne derives great joy from working with families to help communicate with their pets. By learning to speak our pet's language, we find that we improve both human and dog's lives alike.

Every family has a unique dynamic and desired expectations for their pets. A well trained dog looks different for every family. Corinne believes in respecting our animals through the lives that we bring them into. Her approach to dog training focuses on the question, what do you want to see to create plans that work for the lives of the whole family?

Corinne's passions are both learning and teaching. She earned her bachelor's of fine arts in music education from the University of Illinois and taught in local public school. As a teacher of both humans and dogs, Corinne loves the craft of bridging the language gap between both species.

Corinne is a Certified Professional Dog Trainer, Knowledge Assessed through the Council for Certification for Professional Dog Trainers. She has two boys, ages four and two, who help her constantly reflect on how behavior serves as a tool for communication.

Y'all, anybody who knows our team knows that we just absolutely gush over Corinne. She is one in a million. She's amazing. And I am so thrilled that you get to hear all of those little golden nuggets of wisdom that she has. She is just truly amazing at forming connections with any species.

In this episode, you're going to hear Emily and Corinne talk about how leadership and teaching aren't zero sum games, connection is the through line to everything we do, and data tracking helps you bring in more clients. All right, here it is, today's episode, Corinne Collier, Creating Connections.

[00:03:02] Emily: Tell us your name, pronouns, and pets.

[00:03:05] Corinne: Hi, my name is Corinne Collier. My pronouns are she/ her, and I have one fluffy, amazing, menacing pet named Opie. He is just incredible. He's about eight now. I love him.

[00:03:18] Emily: I love that menacing was in the otherwise delightful descriptors. I think menacing is also delightful.

[00:03:25] Corinne: I used to call him delightfully naughty.

[00:03:28] Emily: Yes, I enjoy that. Brie's nickname…her first nickname, the nickname has evolved, and now her nickname is Tommy. But her first nickname was Tornado, because she was a force of destruction when we first adopted her.

So I enjoy the complisults, the nicknames that should have a negative association or a connotation, but instead it's just all positives

All right. So tell us your story and how you got to where you are.

[00:03:53] Corinne: I have a lot of different elements to the story. So, I started off, I went to college for actually bio pre med in gender and women's studies, and I wanted to be a gynecologist because I was like, you know what, I'm smart enough to make a difference, I wanna make a difference, and I'm gonna do it.

And then I just kept taking music classes over and over and I was like, “what am I doing?” Like, I obviously should be doing music And so I literally had that moment where I looked myself in the mirror and I was like bawling as I asked myself, “what do you want to do for your life?” And at that time I was like, I have to be a music teacher. So, I ended up switching majors and I went to music education, went through that did a lot of fun things.

So like I worked In an auditory oral preschool where we taught music classes there, and I worked in the juvenile detention center where we brought music lessons in each week, along the way I was like, this is what I'm supposed to be doing but I heard of this Disney internship, and I was like, I gotta go to Disney! I love Disney! 

So I applied for this internship in like, Disney youth programs, but it was for festivals and so when bands, and orchestras, and choirs would come. I ended up going down there and I worked at Disney for six months and then I went during college and I came back to finish up. And I had learned when I was down there that there was another program where you got to teach in the parks. And I was like, “I have to do this!” And so I finished up my program, I student taught. It was incredible. I loved it. I knew I was going to be a music teacher. But I was like, I gotta go back down to Disney. 

So I ended up getting that sales internship, and I got pulled from my sales internship to work another like youth programs in Epcot where choirs would come and sing at Epcot during Christmas time and then I applied for the youth programs where I would teach in the parks and I got that luckily, and so I got to teach in the parks and that was super awesome. So, that seems like a huge aside and like we're talking about like dog training and stuff, why are you telling me about that? But I learned so much about all of these different ways of like working in a big company, and also, I did sales and I thought that I'd never use that. And that's so backwards because now here I am as the Client Experiences Manager doing sales with Pet Harmony. 

But yeah, so then after that, I got a job at a high school. I was teaching band. I was one of four band directors at like a massive high school here in Illinois, where we live. And that was incredible. I was working with a team of master teachers who were just above and beyond anything I could ever have expected. 

And then I had my first son, which when your life changes, you start to ask yourself how schedules work with that. So, I ended up moving to elementary music and I love that as well. And then I had my second son and I was like, I don't know if I can sustain being a teacher, and a mother, and all the things that happen. And a couple years before that when I first started working at the high school, I was also volunteering at the shelters, as so many trainer stories go. And that's where I actually met Opie, I walked in, I made eye contact with him and I was like, you are my soulmate. Let me call my husband and tell him that you're going to be with me now. And so, I worked at a local shelter for a long time, and I was like, I love their brains. These dog brains are amazing.

They're just so amazing, and unique, and intelligent, and I want to learn more about that. And they're like, here, There's this girl, Allie, who also loves their brains, and she might be a good resource for you. And I said, okay, cool! And then, turns out, it was the greatest thing that ever happened, was being able to hook up with Allie, and she got me into the mentorship program here, and so, from there I learned…here we go…and dog training. So I was teaching and dog training at the same time. And then once I ended up taking a break from teaching, I'm just teaching it in a different setting. Still humans, still dogs, still brains. And that was a long convoluted way of saying, I am a dog trainer and behavior consultant for Pet Harmony and also the Client Experiences Manager. So if you email us, you'll talk to me.

[00:07:57] Emily: It's true. And I have to say that several years ago, I don't remember when it was because time has no meaning, but Allie and I were talking about the business. And Allie was like, I've started working with this girl, Corrine, and she's going to join the mentorship program. And I just need you to know that we are going to hire her because she's just going to be a rockstar. Like we need to have her be a part of our company. And I was like, all right, I trust you. I believe you. So we've had our eyes on you from a very long time ago, and we're very excited that you are. A part of our team and our Client Experiences Manager and nobody could do it as well as you.

[00:08:37] Corinne: I don't know about that, but that's nice. And then I met MK. I met MaryKaye and she was like, You need to work for Pet Harmony. I was like, I want to work for Pet Harmony. She's like, Okay, great. I think everyone's on the same page.

[00:08:47] Emily: And then you did, and now we all work together. And that's one of the things that I love about being a co owner of Pet Harmony is our team and how impressed I am by everyone on our team.

[00:09:00] Corinne: They're the best. Honestly, it's the best. No matter who you're talking to, you just feel so good. You leave it and you feel so good.

[00:09:07] Emily: It's true. I just love our whole team. and of course, that's a roundabout way of saying how impressed I am by you. And how stoked I am that you're on our team as well. The things that you say and the ideas that you come up with just continuously blow my mind. And I'll say something to that effect to you. And you'll be like, stop, you'll be like, Oh yeah. Well, I had to do X, Y, Z at blah, blah, blah job. So that's where I got that from. And I think that is so powerful because so many people in this field feel like they're somehow less qualified because they're entering this as their second or third profession. I've had so many people tell me, well, I'll never be as good as you because you were practically born into it. Like you've been doing it since you were in diapers.

I think it is so important for people to come into it from other professions because they bring ideas and skills and ways of thinking from other fields that make us better. And even I experienced that, even though people see me and they're like, well, you've been doing it since you were an infant. And I'm like, well, but first of all, I didn't grow up in the dog training bubble. And so like, I didn't really enter the dog training bubble, the community. I was dog training, but I didn't enter like the community until my thirties, and I did other professions as well. And I brought those skills back in from other professions. 

So, I really love having you on our team, but also having you on the podcast because I want people to see that there is so much value to coming in as a second or third profession and bringing those skills in because what you do for us, I can't do for us because I didn't have the experiences and the background and I haven't developed the skill sets that you have. So talk to me about those skills that you bring from other professions. What are some of those skills and how are they applicable to what we do?

[00:10:58] Corinne: To be honest, I don't know if it's even the skills that you need to hone in on. It's the mindset that you're taking when you're approaching anything. So like, even with continuing education. Like, I just went to Clicker Expo, and it's so easy to sign up and want to go to these classes..it's like, “I need to get better at that, I need to get better at that,” and things that I already know.

But at the same time, I feel like it's really important to go to the sessions that seem like they have nothing to do with the things that you're doing. Because that's how you're going to connect the dots across, because you're going to see a different way of thinking, a different, like, even questioning and answering, and a process of like, how they're viewing things. Whether I was going to like, music ed conferences or going to like, professional development for dog training, I feel like, the thing I always did was just I went to the sessions that seemed the most odd. So, as a high school band director, I was going to the elementary music sessions when I was an elementary music director I was going to the middle school like orchestra stuff. And so it was really helping me see how to connect the dots. 

You know, I went to Clicker Expo And I went to like a lot of horse talks actually I was like, this is incredible, I know nothing about horses and like I didn't even think that this was in the realm of like, how to approach behavior modification. And so, sure the skills are important, but I really think the mindset is the most important, because that's the thing that's gonna help you to just figure out the next step.

But, if I'm thinking of like, actual skills, it's really just putting myself in the place of the person that I'm talking to, because I want to make sure that someone leaves an experience with me feeling better, or even if they're not feeling better feeling, they know the next steps moving forward. So like whether I'm with a client or just reaching out to people who are looking to book with us. I try to ask myself like what would I want to hear from this to make me feel more relief and to feel like there's hope for the next step. So I think as far as my skills go, I don't know what necessarily I've cultivated through specific channels and what I have just gotten from having the mindset of being open to just experience things and seeing how they connect.

Maybe connection is the skill, is that I'm really trying to focus on how I connect one thing to the next, which may seem like they don't connect. And I do find, I do actually get like really jazzed up about those things, like trying to draw those parallels. Maybe it's like the tortured poet inside of me.

[00:13:22] Emily: yes, you're right because the recurring theme of what I was hearing from you across the mindset and the skills and the things that you had to do in your other jobs. is essentially connecting the dots, right? You're making those connections for people in terms of connecting people to people to companies, people to concepts, connection is central to all of the things that you've been talking about, which I think is a really important thing because another thing that, poor people who listen to our podcast are probably so sick of my soapboxes, but another one that I am really passionate about is listening to your learner and connecting what you're doing to their lived experience and like, I get fired up about, like, assuming something is appetitive to the learner just because you're using a clicker and treats.

And like, that's not necessarily serving them. That's not necessarily meeting their needs. It's not necessarily listening to what they're telling you. I do think that is so important is, like, connecting to your learners, whether they're human or non human, both, right? Because when in our profession, we're working with the humans and the non humans. So yeah, connection is central to all of it.

[00:14:29] Corinne: Sure, we want the learners to be a part of the learning process, because nothing else makes sense besides that. Like, the learner has to be the center of the experience, because they're the learner. But also if you're not ready to jump on that, just think for yourself, you are going to enjoy the experience more if everybody in the experience is benefiting from it.

So, it's not just, of course we want the learner to be the one benefiting from it, but if you're not ready to even join that thought, or it's hard for you to, get on that page, just think, okay, for me, if I'm feeling a lot of stress with this not working out, or we leave conversations, and these people and I are never really resolving anything. You will feel better if you're actually responding and listening to what the learners want. 

[00:15:16] Emily: The thing is, behavior change is not a zero sum game. In order for one person or one animal, one learner, to succeed, other learners don't have to lose. It is absolutely a non - zero sum game, where when one learner wins, we all win and we feel better and our needs are met when we're able to find that fulfillment of that connection and the common good and all of that.

So yeah, you're absolutely right. That is super important because it is better for us as well. When, we're focused on listening to everybody, connecting all the stakeholders in the conversation. And, I love the saying a rising tide lifts all boats. It's tasty. It's delicious. You want to lick it off a spoon. It's fine. We're totally normal here at Pet Harmony. Totally normal.

[00:16:02] Corinne: The other day my friend was listening to, well, she was picking up Walt to take him for ice cream and so we were in our meeting and she was just picking up Walt, and she was listening to it and she was like, I loved listening to how your team was just like responding, and talking, and connecting to each other. I was like, I know, like I have the greatest team. She's like, that was really that, that was cool, that's not what you hear in staff meetings. I was like, “yeah. 'cause I have an awesome team.”

[00:16:29] Emily: I know we all will always have things to improve about how we run our teams as well. And team management is an iterative skillset. But also I think like, it become so much better to lead a team and manage a team when you're not concerned about winning. And you're not concerned about being right.

[00:16:47] Corinne: That's it, Emily. When you're not concerned about being right. Because like, winning, like, everyone wants to do well. Everyone wants to succeed. We want to feel that way. But it's when you're not concerned about being the right answer. When you're not concerned about you being, it's not me centered. It's like, I had this answer and this is what it needs to be and everyone needs to follow that.

[00:17:06] Emily: Yeah. I think that's a really good point. It's not about being concerned about winning over your team. Like that zero sum game that we're talking about, like beating your team. The number one thing to do to build a really supportive team is just toss out that mindset, and just be focused on like a rising tide lifts all boats. The best leader is the one who serves. So yeah, I love that. Okay. So we talked about how, in addition to being a behavior consultant for us, you're also our Client Experiences Manager.

[00:17:35] Corinne: I love the humans! The humans coming in to work with us because they don't know what to do with their animals. They're just, their hearts are open, and they want to know what's going on and how we can work together. I love the people.

[00:17:49] Emily: Yeah. I love my clients. I love my students. I feel those warm fuzzies, and also I hated before we had a you, and it wasn't the people's fault, it was just we were just overextended having to be the front line and the back line and like the everything line, was just really, really hard.

So I, I honestly, I don't know how we functioned before we had you on board. So I just really recommend that behavior consulting businesses or animal welfare companies in general, have a Client Experiences Manager. If your company is large enough, I know it doesn't make sense for a solopreneur to, to have a whole Client Experiences Manager necessarily. That might not always be true, but I do advocate that more people have a Corinne, a Client Experiences Manager. 

So can you talk about what you do in that role and some of the big takeaways that you've learned that you think will be helpful to other people who run behavior related or animal welfare related businesses?

[00:18:47] Corinne: Yeah, so a Client Experience Manager, the way that we define it, is someone who is going to help the client from intake to off boarding. And what we're helping to do is see the people who are coming in with a problem, help them to address how we can either serve them or, address them or, send them to whatever other resource would be more appropriate. And then getting them paired with the right consultant, making sure that the consultant has all of the stuff that we've talked about before. Because, they'll email us, they'll call us, and a lot of things are gone over in those conversations that even aren't covered in the intake form because, conversation feels different than the formal, filling out a questionnaire.

And so, it's then, the first step is connecting them to Pet Harmony. Second step is connecting them to their consultant. And then the next step is just making sure that things are streamlined, that the consultants have a support system for when logistics don't make sense to them or are just overwhelming to them. And for the clients when they're like, I have something that's not really dog training related, but I want to, I'm doing the right thing for booking or paying or whatever that is. And so, it's helping to relieve some of the stress on both the client and the consultant side. 

And then, part of it is also just tracking, making sure that we're understanding, like, how inquiries are getting taken care of and what the turnover is, and then me modifying the techniques that I'm using to be able to actually serve the people the way that they deserve to be served. And making sure that we're, giving them what helps them to actually find the results that they're looking for. 

Part of it also is helping the clients to understand what's reasonable and what's unreasonable and giving them the idea of what it would be like to work with Pet Harmony. The conversation I always have with them is that, when you're coming into Pet Harmony, we are dog trainers, and we will certainly train new behaviors, but part of the conversation is we're going to approach it through an enrichment lens so that we can see all of the different facets that are happening because all the training in the world can't out train a skill or behavior that's happening because of an unmet need. Helping them to understand that…putting that definition in their mind that training is teaching a skill rather than it's like obedience. Cause I think that a lot of people come into dog training, they just want their dog to “have training,” and they don't know what that means, and how to use it in their life. Helping them to understand that training just means teaching a new skill, and as a behavior consultant, we're going to look at how those skills can help them to meet their needs or if there's something else that we can do. So it's really aligning and setting the tone for what working with us would be like, so that they can know if we are a good fit for them or not.

[00:21:28] Emily: Yeah, I deeply appreciate all of that you do, and I want you to talk a little bit more. I think you glossed over the roles that you play for us that has been massively helpful, is trial and eval. And by the way, for those of you who have heard us use the term trial and eval before, we got that from Corinne. It was, it was her suggestion.

[00:21:52] Corinne: I wrote a blog and I was like, writing the blog, and it was like, my first blog, so I'm like, “I'm gonna do so good!” And so I was like, writing it out, and it just like, flowed, it's like, I started, I literally was like, trial and E-R, I was like backspace, E-V-A-L. And so, I thought it was super clever and I was like excited as like a new consultant on the team to like wow you guys.

Like, look at this cute little thing I did. Going back to me wanting to be like, the perfect high school, like, emotional English student, and so that's where it came from was that blog. And I was like, I remember, I think this was the time where we were still recording the videos and I had read it and then at the end Allie was like, I really like that trial and eval.

I'm like, oh my God, you did like, oh cool. That's cool. And then people started saying, I was like, this is great. It was clever. Usually I'm not very clever. It was clever.

[00:22:48] Emily: Oh my gosh. I understand what you mean. So like, my background is linguistics. I love language, and I love words and I love like, phrases that just, they taste good.

[00:23:01] Corinne: Mm hmm,

I felt good about that. And now I feel even better because I do think it, I was like, I thought that worked and it does work.

[00:23:08] Emily: What I was saying is that one of the most valuable things that you do for us is the trial and eval of what is actually the most effective and impactful way to communicate with clients.

And to get them to follow through and get all the way to the end of their goals, right? And the kind of methodical way that you trial and eval different approaches and came up with your results, were, it was beautiful to watch. But also, your outcomes blew my mind. Like I was not expecting the thing that was the most effective to be the thing that was most effective. And by the way, friends, the reason I'm not telling you what it is because I don't want people to hear this podcast, and then run out and think this is the most effective way it's been scienced by Corinne.

The reason that is, is because all of our businesses are different. We're different personalities. We have different services to offer. We have different client bases, different ideal client avatars. So what is ideal and most effective for us is not necessarily going to be most effective for everybody else. So, the point of this conversation is not, “we figured it out, but we're not going to tell you cause it's our trade secret.” The point is, I don't want to give you false idea that what we're doing that works so well for us works for everybody in all contexts. But the take home point is that we have somebody on our team who have the ability to do that data collection and that really methodical sort of trial and eval of like what happens when we approach clients like this? And what happens when we approach them like this? And our outcomes are better because of that process that you, you did and you continue to do. Is there anything about that process that you've been developing for us that you do think would map over to everybody? Like not necessarily the solutions that we came to or came up with, but the way in which you went through that process and you go through that process with other aspects of our business that you think would be applicable to everybody.

[00:25:12] Corinne: Yeah, the first thing is that from, a business side of things, we're looking at gaining clients because that's how a business is sustained. But my goal was not to book more clients or to book more sessions. My goal was to connect with them

That actually was my goal. So I guess that is like the through line, but my goal was just to connect with them and to get them to respond. Because my frustration was, this is again, going back to maybe it's selfish, I was spending all this time creating emails, crafting things to like, get people to respond, and to click on links and stuff, and they weren't doing anything, they weren't responding. They weren't, not only not booking, they just like, weren't responding to me.

I was like, I'm wasting my time. And I'm not getting anything from this and so I have to change something, and so I went through a lot of different things where I'd change one tiny thing, and I'd test it out for like a month and so like you have to have the gift of time, or at least the gift of like how many inquiries that are coming in, for at least for this particular topic I'm talking about, people that are writing in or doing a contact form, to be able to see what actually makes a difference. And so I would change one thing about it and try to make sure I didn't change anything else. And the big thing that, of course, anybody who listens to this podcast is going to know that we're going to say is that we have to data track. 

And I roll my eyes so hard at that cause I hate it. I'm not a data tracking girl, but I have to be because I know that it works, which stinks. Cause I was like, I do always find results when I track, but, you have to track, unfortunately, and so, like, I found, because I don't like data tracking, I was like, I have to have it simple for me. So, like, we have, like, a management system where I have, like, a, I created, like, drop downs of, like, what did I do this time? ask a question? Did I suggest a package? Did I encourage a phone call? What did I do? And so, the first step was, like, trying to figure out which one of those things helped me best get people to respond and then after that worked. I was like, okay now let's try something different.

And so, what I've come to and again, this isn't trade secret, so I am gonna share it. But this is what works for us, is that like I pretty much never suggest a package in the first place unless it's someone that's like “our vet said to come to you, we're ready to come to you,” which, this is our thing and like can someone, who does that best, so like if there was something where it's like we need it in-home with babies, and we're ready to go now. And I'm like,” okay, go to MK, like, go to MaryKaye, she's, she'll be an incredible consultant for you.”

But, for the most part, I just ask another question. And again, this is what works for us, and so it's going to be different for everybody, but I think about was one of my trainers was like introducing this to us as these little interns. He's like, when someone has an issue, you always use your last resort, and so last is: listen, apologize, solve, and thank, and so making sure that I use that kind of model, even if it's not someone with a problem. It's like, I'm gonna listen to you first. I don't apologize, but I validate instead. So I always, like, because whatever they're feeling, like, a lot of people just want to be heard, and so I try to validate their feelings and make it more personal for, like, sometimes if it seems appropriate, like, I'll add a little thing from my own life that happened. The solve part, I replaced that with asking another question to like, explore more, and then always thank. And so, I took that idea from what I was doing with like, general inquiries with group sales and wedding sales. 

And that's also not a trade secret either, like this is like a technique that people use in sales. And so I took that and that's how like when someone reaches out to us. I always listen, I validate, I ask a question, and I try to keep it short and simple so that they don't have this barrier of reading a bunch of things to then, like, go to the next part. Because often, like, and this is going back to what would I do? So, like, if I see an email and there's just, like, three to five paragraphs, I'm like, I need to save this for a time when my brain can do it.

And if I see an email that's like, oh man, that sucks that your dog is biting people, I'm so sorry for that. When does this happen? Then it is just, it takes down a barrier for them to have to feel like they have to really give it time to be able to respond. And then they're like, oh, I can just, I can tell them like, oh, it happens when they stand next to the dryer or whatever, and so then I actually find out if they, with that simple question that I ask, I find out really what's the root of why this is happening now? Like why now is this happening? And then I go from there. And then, we talk on the phone sometimes, sometimes it's able to just go over through emails and but I think that's the biggest thing is that going back to the connection is just, “I'm sorry this is happening to you. Is there some little detail you want to tell me about?” And that breaks that barrier down for them to be able to respond again. And that's all I want.  I just want to have a conversation.

One of the things I hated doing, and, Ellen had asked me, like, What's something about your job that you just can't stand? I'm like, I can't stand going into our tracking system and seeing that I have to respond to an inquiry. Because if I have to respond to an inquiry through a reminder, that means that inquiry hasn't responded back to me. So then I have to be like “here I am again, don't you want our help?” And so, I hate feeling that, because it's like, if I have to be reminded to reach out to someone, then that means that they haven't connected with us already, and it just has gone down. Like, our inquiry list of my reminders used to be, 25 to 35 people long, and right now it's 7 people.

Because it's either people saying, like, “yeah, let's book,” or, like, “oh, we don't…I think we're gonna look at another,” and I actually take a lot of pride when someone says like, we're going to go with another trainer. Like if, I know that sounds weird, but like when someone is able to have three or four email exchanges with me and be like, you know what, we're going to see how this goes if we read this book or we're going to see what our vet says or we really want an in person and we're out of your travel radius.

I think that speaks a lot because sure, you're not working with us and that makes me sad, but it really is good because you have found the comfort of being able to say like oh you're not right for us right now. And I think that's even harder than saying you are right for us right now, so I think part of it…my inquiry list isn't smaller because less people are booking with us, my inquiry list is smaller because people are talking to us. Which is what we need.

[00:31:45] Emily: Yeah, that's beautiful. And while you were talking, I was thinking about that because I do that all the time. When I'm engaging with another business, and for whatever reason I decide to stop engaging, now that I am a business owner and I know how distressing it is when people just disappear and you don't know what happened to them or why they disappeared, it is so much more distressing than if somebody is like, “I'm going to go with somebody else, here's why,” or “I'm no longer working with you, here's why.” When I know why it is, even if it's like critical feedback, it's like, well, I, Okay. Now I know that like, I didn't meet your needs or we don't offer the service that you're looking for, or you're not ideologically aligned. And so it has actually influenced how I interact with other businesses, because now I know what it's like to be on the other end.

And so when I leave, I'll be like. “hey, I'm just leaving temporarily cause I got to tighten the budget. I will be back. I love your service or your product.” I always make sure to tell people why I'm leaving, because I know what it's like to, to have those inquiries just float out into the ether and never get a response.

[00:32:51] Corinne: And I don't need things to be, like, fluffy. I don't need it. I guess my point is that I like that I can cultivate, it's usually email exchange, but cultivate an email exchange where we can just continue the conversation and it's not just like, ah, this person isn't bleh, and then delete. And so, that's my goal is that we can just find closure whether this is or isn't for you.

[00:33:15] Emily: Cultivating a interpersonal relationship with somebody that feels safe enough for them to tell you thanks, but no thanks is actually a huge win. And it is something that I think a lot of people don't recognize as being a huge win. 

So because you are the queen of support and connection, I got to ask you, how can we behavior professionals better support our clients and conversely, how can people better prepare for being a client so that they can get the most out of their sessions? Cause like you're the person who can answer this.

[00:33:47] Corinne: As behavior professionals, we just have to know that people are doing the best they can with what they got. If people own an animal, they are not just bad people, right? And I feel like sometimes when we see things happen that we don't agree with or differ from us, we assume the worst, and I just really ask you as behavior professionals to come in assuming the best or assuming nothing and just ask more questions.

When you feel defensive or when you feel like something wrong has happened or if something just doesn't align with your beliefs, ask more questions first, because it's really easy if we don't ask questions to get on this pedestal and to talk down or talk at. And when someone's being talked at, they're just not going to respond to that, no one's going to get anything out of it.

And so, my biggest thing as a behavior professional is when I hit up with something that doesn't quite jive with me to ask more questions because that will buy you more time to de escalate and it'll give you more answers for where they're coming from As clients, I think the best way to prepare is to know that behavior consultants are really looking for everybody to gain from it. And so, we're going to be advocates for your dog. I often say when clients are asking me like, what's right or what's not right? Let's see what your dog is saying. And I work primarily with dogs, but let's see what is your dog saying? Does this meet their need? Is this something that you want to do? are okay with in your life? And then how do we go from there? It's really hard for me to get across to, clients at first that, I don't really care how you live your life with your dog. I want you to have, I want them to have an incredible life. I want them to be well taken care of and safe and I want them to be loved and nurtured and not harmed, right?

Of course I want that. But, like, I don't care if your dog eats your food off your plate. If you don't care. I don't care. I have no judgment. The amount of times clients have been like, Oh yeah, we spoiled them. They sit on the couch. I'm like, I don't care. I really don't care. What do you want? f you want that's fine. If you don't want that's fine. If it's causing other things to happen, or if it is causing more problems, Then what we actually need to happen, like, then we can address it. But I feel like clients going into working with a trainer or a behavior consultant need to just know that we are really trying to help everybody feel like they're heard and that they can get to the next level. And we're not judging you. Well, hopefully that's, my call to action for the behavior consultants. But, like, we're not judging you for the things that you're choosing to do. What we're here to do is advocate for your dog based on our knowledge of what we see and our knowledge of how behavior works, and our knowledge of what you're telling us that you want to happen or not to happen.

[00:36:34] Emily: Yeah, that's beautiful. I love that. I would emphasize that we're also advocating for you, which means that we might be telling you something that might seem like we're slowing you down or like asking you to take a couple steps backwards, but we're doing it because we know it's going to help you. And, so like, we're in your corner

Awesome. All right. So we're at the part now where I ask the same set of questions. What are our observable goals and actionable items that people can take away from this discussion?

[00:37:05] Corinne: Just listen to people. Just assume the best and listen to what they're saying. When you are interacting with someone, whether it's in a business setting or just at Target, like, just assume the best and listen to what they're saying, or what they're not saying, you gotta take it out of yourself and see what's happening in the environment.

[00:37:26] Emily: And secondly, I will say for myself, that right there is my litmus test for how many spoons I have left, and how good I have been taking care of myself, because when I have a knee jerk, lash out reaction to somebody, instead of immediately thinking about their experience and putting myself in their shoes, that tells me that I'm out of spoons and I need to take a break from peopling. Because like, it is something that requires effort to do that.

[00:37:52] Corinne: It's so hard. It is hard. I don't do it all the time. I try. I don't do it all the time. Yeah.

[00:37:58] Emily: it's hard to hear past insults or people lashing out or accusations or whatever. And hear the hurt fueling that and also we are finite beings who have needs as well. Yes,that is my litmus test. When somebody says something that is valid, but being delivered in a way that's maybe not pleasant and my response is knee jerk lash out instead of feeling their pain, I'm like, okay, I need to go take care of myself.

[00:38:25] Corinne: Yeah, but I want to like even press on even if it's not valid, it's still their reality.

[00:38:31] Emily: Thank you for saying that. And let me clarify what I mean. When it's not somebody who is being a bully or being abusive or gaslighting, that's what I mean. when it's not somebody who is causing harm, that's what I meant by valid. But thank you for pushing back on that because you are right, that, perception is reality. And when you're upset, you can have a skewed perception, but it's still real to you. And so it's still valid because your feelings are valid but it doesn't excuse abuse or bullying or gaslighting. So those are the distinctions. 

Alright. Next question is, what is one thing you wish people knew about this topic, your profession or enrichment, your choice?

[00:39:07] Corinne: I think I'll hone in on my profession. One thing that I hope people realize is that when you're going in working with someone who really wants to help you and your family, if they're not fitting your needs, then no one's needs are being met.

If you feel like you are not being heard, then you should be able to ask questions as well for, “what have you seen in the past where this has been helpful” or, “how do you know that this is the next thing?” So if you as a client are feeling uncomfortable with whatever the suggestion is, I think it's totally valid not necessarily to like push back to them, but like to ask the questions too.

I think earlier I was talking about how consultants should be asking those questions and when you feel like you know the answer, but the client isn't really on the same page as you, asking more questions. I think the other way around is also important, that when a client comes in, it's important to know that we just want to help you, so if what we're saying doesn't match what you have in your mind, tell us, talk to us about that, because we really do want to help you find whatever is going to work for you.

[00:40:11] Emily: Beautiful. I love it. What is one thing you'd love to see improved in your field?

Yes. I love that. And that is something that I, when I found out that I was, AuDHD I was like, why did it take this long for people to figure this out about me, because one of the things that I've always struggled with is when I make a statement and people make inferences that I wasn't implying, and then get mad at me about their own inferences. And I'm like “I wasn't saying any of that. You made all that up in your head and now you're mad at me about your own fantasy.”

[00:40:41] Corinne: I've done that too, where it's like, I'm like, oh, this person! And I was like, wait. once I actually am able to have this conversation, They're like, I never said that. And I was like, oh, yeah, you're right. I put two and two together, and you didn't give me that math. You were giving me different numbers.

[00:40:56] Emily: Yeah. And I've realized, like, I've miscommunicated with people in other ways. I'm not saying I'm perfect at communication at all. But that particular type of miscommunication has always been incredibly distressing to me because I just don't understand it. And one of the things that I've had to learn is how to be aware that is how people with different neurotypes than what I experience are. I've had to learn how to set my expectations accordingly and navigate that, so yeah, it's a big deal. 

What do you love about what you do?

[00:41:26] Corinne: Oh my, I just love everything. I just love so many things. I love learning and I love teaching, which sounds like a really nerdy thing to say, but I really truly do love it. I think it's just fascinating the way our brains are making connections with things that we have or have not intentionally learned and it's just so amazing, like, the reason I even got into teaching at all. I'm staring at the mirror, crying, asking myself, what should I do with my life, and the reason I went to music ed, even over music performance, though, like, I was a qualified performer, right?

I just love being a part of the process of making connections. I really don't care what I'm teaching either, like the the subject or the learner. I don't care which one it is, whether it's music to students, or whether it's skills to dogs, or modification techniques to humans. I just, I love the process of learning. It is just so fascinating to me. And I think back to, I took Living and Learning with Animals last summer, and I'm listening to what Susan's saying, and it was just like, the way they were talking about how amazing this world is, and, like, the sense of awe they had when they were talking about how things affect their environment, which is learning, I was like, “Yes! That's it! That is it!” That is totally. so that's what I love. I love exploring how things are happening in our environment and how our behavior changes because of it.

[00:43:01] Emily: Yes, I'm right there with you. And I find obviously the theme of this episode is connection because I find my deepest connections are with people who share that sense of awe and wonder and excitement about the way the world works and the way brains work and the way learning works and communication works and all of that. So I'm right there with you. 

All right. We just, basically this entire conversation was about what you're currently working on because, It's with us, with our team. But if people want to work more with or learn from you,

[00:43:32] Corinne: Oh my gosh, you should, you should email info @ PetHarmonyTraining. com because it really will be me. So, email info @ PetHarmonyTraining. com Just give me a little hello. We can chit chat. You don't even have to say anything about your animal. You don't have to book a package, but if you want to say hi, you can do that. If you do have an issue, please, we'll talk about it. I'll probably ask you questions. And hopefully you don't ghost me because, you've heard this episode now. But yeah, or you could book a package with us if you're pup's having issues. I do in home in the Chicago Western Suburbs, and I do online all over the world. But I think the easiest entry to talk to me is just emailing the assistant account at Pet Harmony Training.

[00:44:15] Emily: Yes. Alright, thanks Corinne, as always!

[00:44:19] Allie: Okay, what did I tell you? Corinne is just amazing. I'm so glad that you had the opportunity to learn from her in today's episode. I know I get to learn from her all the time. 

Next week, we'll be talking with Scotty Harvey. about how to be a mindful puppy raiser.

Thank you for listening. You can find us at petharmonytraining.com and @petharmonytraining on Facebook and Instagram, and also @petharmonypro on Instagram for those of you who are behavioral professionals. As always links to everything we discussed in this episode are in the show notes and a reminder to please rate, review and subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts a special thank you to Ellen Yoakum for editing this episode, our intro music is from Penguin Music on Pixabay.

Thank you for listening and happy training.