Christine Mattschei: Welcome to The Horror Analysis, a podcast that takes a psychological deep dive into all things horror and macabre. Here are your hosts, Frank Horror, writer, director, filmmaker, and podcaster with a background in counseling psychology and Dr. Elliott Rotman, a clinical psychologist with a background in acting and the arts.

Frank Horror: So we just talked in the last episode about monsters. Some of which might be natural, like animals, like the shark from Jaws or the dog from Cujo or Alfred Hitchcock's The Birds. But as we saw, not all monsters are natural. Some may be of the supernatural variety.

And it's clear as we examine these different sub genres that not all horror films or works of literature really fit neatly into any one specific category. There may be bleed over into other sub genres. Prime example of this is the subgenre of supernatural horror. So some of those things that fell under monsters that are supernatural can also fall under this banner. It just, supernatural encompasses so many elements that can be found scattered throughout the different sub genres.

Elliott Rotman: So supernatural horror is a broad category with a lot of potential components and themes, which we're going to discuss now. The question is exactly what constitutes supernatural horror?

Frank Horror: So when we're looking at the definition of supernatural, it would be of, or relating to an order of existence beyond the visible observable universe. So it's something that departs from what is usual or what is normal, especially if it transcends the laws of nature. Could be attributed to an invisible agent, such as a ghost or a spirit. So it's something that is transcended of the laws of nature.

 And honestly, this is when you look at the body of work of like Stephen King or Clive Barker or Dean Koontz, or this is really their wheelhouse. And for me, I have to say supernatural films are my favorite. Supernatural horror certainly resonates with me, I guess, because it encompasses so much. It's sort of a broad topic, but it could be ghosts, it could be movies like the Ring, it could be a curse, like final destination. So there's an agent that's outside of what we expect to be the laws of normalcy. The Sixth Sense, the Exorcist. There we're delving into a bit of religious territory, the Witch. So why would something like this capture our imagination the way it does?

Elliott Rotman: Well, if you think about it, the supernatural has always captured our imagination, that there are forces beyond what we can see that affect our lives. And the notion of ghosts certainly go to ... well, you think of Hamlet, how strongly ghosts affect that, play into that story. And [inaudible 00:03:27]'s ghost, speaking to Hamlet about what actually happened. Somebody coming from beyond, coming from beyond physical death to inform you.

In Macbeth, you have the three witches in beginning who are commenting on the story and beginning to drive the narrative. So there's always been this supernatural notion of going back to Greek gods and Roman gods, that they are out there and they are affecting what happens to us in our day to day lives. If they're pleased with us, or if they're angry with us. We can't see them, but they believe that certainly affected what was going on. And you would pray to those gods.

Frank Horror: So I'm hearing that it's about the unknown.

Elliott Rotman: It's about the unknown, and it certainly falls under religions that you can not every ... for many people in terms of what they believe, they may believe that it's not about supernatural, but really supernatural is the notion of any force, whether it's God or someone who's departed, or energy in the universe, or a figure like a demon or a spirit. They could be negative or they could be positive.

Frank Horror: So with religion or with mythology, we are looking to explain the unexplainable. And so things are attributed to gods that could be patterns of the weather, or plague, or famine, or things like that. And so it's a way to kind of tell a story about something that's unknown and especially the big unknown is death. Right?

Elliott Rotman: Right.

Frank Horror: And that's where a lot of religions have belief structures centered around what happens with death. What is life and death and what's the distinction between the two and what happens? So I guess is that's the appeal of supernatural horror, is that you get to tell a story and it's not just an obvious answer like there's this guy that killed these people. Something mysterious happened. And how are we going to explain this, if not through conventional means?

Elliott Rotman: And it's something beyond us that certainly in the horror genre is we can't control it. So you could have a mischievous spirit, who's playing jokes and is maybe annoying, but isn't frightening. But if that spirit turns in some way and becomes angry and destructive, then they become scary. Because again, the whole theme of what we've been talking about is these are elements we can't control, things are happening to us, to a character. And that's where it becomes frightening.

Frank Horror: Something that we can't control. And we can't quite explain.

Elliott Rotman: Right.

Frank Horror: So wouldn't it make sense then in this world that we live in, as we get more ... technology expands more, we develop more scientific knowledge and understanding of the universe around us, that those supernatural stories would start to wane a bit, or does this still serve a key function in our society?

Elliott Rotman: But science doesn't explain everything. And science cannot, if you happen to be believe in God, science can't prove or disprove that there isn't some overriding are writing entity or entities, depending on what you happen to believe, that affect what happens in the universe. So we pray whether it's to a single God or in Hinduism to multiple gods, people often pick who they will pray to. Or just to pray to the universe that we know. We know our physical world and what we see in three dimensions, but can't explain other things. So the notion of a supernatural belief or occurrence helps explain some of it, not in a rational way necessarily, but it's saying, "Oh, that's what's causing it."

Frank Horror: Yeah. And that is a big sub theme in supernatural fiction or supernatural horror, is this religious element. And so you have films again, like the Exorcist, that is all about Roman Catholicism and the ritual of exorcism and demons and things. And it's just, I don't know, I can see the appeal, but it seems like it's making a recurrence. It seems like there's a lot more films lately and things go in cycles, but there are a lot more films lately that tap into that demonology and Christian mythology, that has built around devils or the devil, demons, things like that. I don't know. I just, I'm wondering why? Why do we go back to that story? Even people who might not believe, or be from a different faith, why is that so prevalent?

Elliott Rotman: I think it goes back to folklore, in terms of stories that has been told for millennia. Spirits in the forest, spirits at night. One way to explain sounds that you hear in the forest, that if you can't identify the animal, it's like, "Well, it's the forest god, it's the forest spirits." So it goes back to there has always been folklore and much of folklore talks about some kind of forces beyond our physical world that affect things.

Sometimes it's based on a moral principle. If you behave, if you're good or if you're not good. So the idea of aspects of the supernatural go back through millennia. For example, superstitions. The notion of with a baby, if a crow lands on the cradle, that's a bad omen that something as bad is going to happen to that baby. I don't know the origins of that. I'm sure it's been documented, but that's a supernatural belief in which case a crow is seen as a bad omen. Something that could cause harm, or at least foretells harm.

Fairy tales have developed through a folk process of just being told over and over again. Sometimes they involve ... well, they often involve consequences to actions, but there's usually some kind of a character in the story that has some power to affect the other character negatively. You have the Wicked Witch in Snow White. You have, if you talk about witches, there's the witch in Hansel and Gretel. Although it's not clear she has magical powers, but she does have this gingerbread, this house that's going to attract the children. But she has powers beyond what the average person is, even if she's not immediately recognizable.

So the notion of something beyond us, it's really the basis of religion that stories are told. And we can't really explain it. If you go through all of the Old Testament, there are numerous stories about what God did, and God speaking to the characters there. God speaking to Adam and Eve, speaking to Moses, that he's actually talking to them in some way, but doesn't talk to everybody else. That's a supernatural element.

So it goes to, for us to try to explain the purpose of our existence, the meaning of our existence here on earth. And through literature, this has been developed. I have a book that I've had since childhood, A Child's Garden Averse by Robert Willow Stevenson. And there is a poem there called the Goblin Ones Will Get You If You Don't Watch Out.

Frank Horror: Well, that sounds fun.

Elliott Rotman: Uh-huh. And it's the idea of this girl who is a housemate telling this story to little kids around their fireplace fire, that the goblins can come from outside and get you, so you better be careful. And the fact that I can still remember this low many years later, and I can remember the illustration, it spoke to me in some way. Not that I grew up believing in goblins, but goblins go through literature. And so goblins, banshees, things out there that can affect us, but we can't see, we can't control, but they're not human.

And the notion of the devil influencing people. And there are stories going back, at least from the time of when Christianity was established, that there is good and there's evil. The devil is evil and the devil will influence you, will do things. That's a supernatural element. You just take that then and develop it and you got a story.

Frank Horror: I totally had something I was going to say, and it left my head. I blame the gin.

Elliott Rotman: I blame Satan.

Frank Horror: Well, that's what it comes down to, is a scapegoat or a projection. When you look at all of the gods that man has created over the years or these mythological figures, or the witches, or the trolls, or all these made up entities in our stories that we tell, they're projections of aspects of us. And it's so much easier to recognize that when it's coming from outside, when it's the other.

Elliott Rotman: And I think in terms of literature and the power in literature, is when these elements have a volition, they are intending to do something, that demons possess us, fairies might tease us. In Iceland, there's a belief of garden gnomes. Of that when people actually check properties for gnomes, because they believe they're there and they can indicate, if I'm remembering this correctly in a good luck or bad luck.

Frank Horror: In modern day?

Elliott Rotman: Yes. And in modern Iceland, it's part of the culture. It's part of the folk cultures and sophisticated people will check for evidence of gnomes. So it's how you take any one of these themes that could be malevolent or benevolent.

Frank Horror: So it seems that we, as a people are just not designed to deal well with ambivalence. We need to have answers. And if we don't have a system that provides them, because like you said, science can provide so much, but there's still corners of understanding that we've not reached yet. That's when we make up stories, because we can't tolerate just sitting on the fact that, I don't know.

Elliott Rotman: We look for ... that's a great way to put it. We look for explanations. Yeah. For what our world is like. So it used to be that, if it's raining, well and it's thundering, well, the gods are angry or they're bowling or something like that. It explains it, because we don't understand differences in air pressure and electricity. So it does serve that purpose and it creates whole bodies of literature.

Frank Horror: Which can be great entertainment.

Elliott Rotman: Great. Yeah.

Frank Horror: But it's also period specific, like there are certain stories in mythologies from periods of time, like you referenced like, "Oh, those are the gods that are bowling or this is Zeus hurling his lightning bolts." We're at a point now where we don't really take that seriously. And I don't know if we would be that much entertained by a modern story to that respect. So it's got to match our story around what we don't understand or the mysterious has to match cultural context.

Elliott Rotman: Right. But I think certain aspects of religion transcend even cultural context. No, we might not think of Zeus as this burly god with a long beard, holding lightning bolts, although it certainly explains it. But we have notion of God sending down an angel or angels, or Satan dispensing demons who then ... and demons take on intentions of their own. And so they'll torture someone or bedevil them in some way.

Frank Horror: But even those stories change over time. In olden times, that's a very broad reference, but in biblical times, the angels in the Bible were terrifying. They weren't depicted as the way they are nowadays. They were the assassins of God. They were messengers of doom. And if an angel came to you, it would probably be to kill your first born or do something horrific in service of the Old Testament God. So that has, that image has changed over time. Now modern day depictions of angels are positive or at least pro-human, what we see as good. And that gets into a deeper discussion about good and evil, which I guess is part of the appeal of the supernatural.

Elliott Rotman: And gets into discussion also of art, as how they're portrayed.

Frank Horror: Yeah.

Elliott Rotman: Because certainly during early medieval times, angels, particularly around nativity scenes are portrayed as protective and benevolent. But human imagination has always created a kind of a dark side and that's always been grist for the mill for literature and for imagination. So we have things being possessed, whether it's a person who's being possessed and when they're represented in film, it's like, "Well, their eyes are different." The eyes are, we talk about eyes as being the window to the soul.

What happens when someone's eyes just flips up, flip up and all you do is see the whites or their focus changes? That tells us that there's something very different. And so there's a whole body there of beliefs. "Well, there's a devil inside. There's a demon inside you, that's controlling." Which going back to the Exorcist, she was possessed.

And in this case, what made it so frightening is one, portraying the protagonist as a child, as a little girl. The makeup effects and the fact that this demon knew everything ... not she was just a vehicle. She was just a vessel, but that this demon was powerful and knew things about the people around him who were trying to exercise them, to exercise him, I think was Father Damien. He would be able to speak in his dead mother's voice and just his horror was guilt.

So what makes all of these compelling is that it's taking a situation that should be benign and flipping it on its head. And so you have a possessed doll. How many of these movies, Chucky series and there's Chucky who's really seems like can talk and just seems like a regular doll and then horror of horrors, the kid to figures out, there are no batteries inside. And then Chucky somehow goes around with the knife and kills everyone. Never quite figured that out, but it's the idea of something benign not being benign anymore, because it's possessed by something supernatural.

Frank Horror: When I think the ... in watching these supernatural horror movies, what's important is for some people who believe that the devil is real and it will possess you, the Exorcist, a movie like that is terrifying. Or that dolls can be vessels for souls. Sure. Then they can entertain this as, this is realistic. This could happen. But there are those of us who don't. But yet I'm still terrified by the Exorcist. I think that's probably one of the scariest movies ever made, if not the scariest, but I can watch the Howling. I don't believe in werewolves, but I think, "Man, that movie's scary. That's intense." And so I think an important element for a lot of us is the suspension of disbelief.

Elliott Rotman: Absolutely.

Frank Horror: Because it is not a killer. This isn't the guy next door. It isn't someone stalking you. This isn't a real world danger. This is something that is outside of the norm of what we consensually consider to be accepted reality. And so you have to suspend disbelief in that setting to accept this and to really immerse yourself in it and experience it as if it were really happening, knowing that after it's over, "Oh, that was just a movie." That it was terrifying.

Elliott Rotman: Absolutely. That's the only way that it works. It's also the only way you can get through a Broadway musical, because if you stop and go, "Wait a second, why is there another musical number now? That's not realistic." You can't enjoy it. But if you say, "I'm going to expect this is what's going to happen. People are going to sing and dance as a way to advance the story." Then you can enjoy it.

Frank Horror: Although imagine our society if it were like a musical, that if at any point the music started and we broke into song and dance, that'd be kind of trippy.

Elliott Rotman: That could be, but there's that series on Apple, [inaudible 00:21:25] that actually addresses that.

Frank Horror: Oh.

Elliott Rotman: Yeah. That this couple wanders into this town and basically are living in a musical.

Frank Horror: Interesting.

Elliott Rotman: But so for any of these things, sure. You have to accept the plausibility. But I think when you talk about possession, like the Exorcist, is what makes that movie so scary is she doesn't turn into a werewolf. She doesn't really change her physical appearance, in terms of becoming another creature. She becomes grotesque and distorted and what we would consider an evil, dark side of herself. And also because this is a child and is behaving in a very unchildlike way and in a very dangerous kind of way, combined with the atmosphere that the filmmaker created that becomes really scary, because how does this happen?

She is a genuine victim there and everyone actually is a victim there. And it becomes the power of that film is the tension, not just of this kid tied down in a bed and spitting pea soup, but the struggle of the priest that this isn't just ... he's brought in initially to do a job based very much on faith and his belief of what he's doing is important. But it becomes a personal battle for him, because of the power of the supernatural source. And that's the dramatic power of that whole story.

Frank Horror: Well, that's where you have good character development, when your story isn't just about the horror, but about the people dealing with the horror. That's what helps suspend that disbelief. That's what makes it more immersive and realistic for the person who's reading about it, watching it, whatever form of entertainment they're taking in. So, that's the craft to make. And I think that's a challenge for any writer, filmmaker, is to take something that is so out of the ordinary and make it seem like it could really be happening.

Elliott Rotman: Absolutely. You can certainly write something that is out of the ordinary and you know from the very beginning, it can never happen. But if you accept the premise, you can go with anything. You watch cartoon violence, Road Runner and Coyote and the Road Runner. Well, you know that you can't just paint a tunnel on the side of a rock and then have somebody go through it. But we love that. That's become part of our culture, because it's clever and because disbelief doesn't get going to it.

You want to see what incredibly absurd thing happens. But I think when it becomes ... when something shifts into what we would call horror with something that becomes disturbing, is when something that would be benign. For example, if you go to a seance, spiritualism back at the late 19th century, early 20th century was very, very popular. And there was, and I believe there still possibly is a town in the Hudson Valley of New York that was populated by spiritualists, who could connect you to your deceased. And they're still there.

There are people out there who can ... I forget the names, but there would be Las Vegas shows. They would tour around to say, "Does somebody here have a deceased brother named Bob?" And Bob's talking to them through you. That's supernatural and people feel good. "Wow. I'm connecting with Bob. I feel ... he's not just gone." The question would be if Bob turned the things around, starting to speak through the spiritualist and started to make accusations, started to become threatening. Or the spiritualist started to threaten that person, then we're going into horror, because there's that element of lack of control.

Frank Horror: Of danger.

Elliott Rotman: Of danger.

Frank Horror: Yeah.

Elliott Rotman: Yes. That flips all of our assumptions on its head.

Frank Horror: And I think that's a good place for us to wrap it up for our segment on supernatural horror. We want to thank you, the listeners for your continued morbid curiosity, and make sure to come back for our next show, where we look at the topic of body horror. The Horror Analysis is a Frank Horror production and is brought to you by Frank Juchniewicz, Elliott Rotman and William Rizzo. Audio engineering, and the original theme music to the Horror Analysis were provided by William Rizzo. Audio editing provided by Frank Juchniewicz. Sound mastering was provided by David Parsons. The opening credits introduction was voiced by Christine Mattschei. To learn more about our show, visit us online  at frankhorror.com.