S2 E33: How to Support Educators Resistant to Change with Matt Renwick

Change is a journey and can be complex. Matt Renwick inspires listeners with his article:7 Questions I Ask Myself When Working with Educators Resistant to Change (derived from his book, Leading Like a C.O.A.C.H.: 5 Strategies for Supporting Teaching and Learning). Matt's authentic approach and questions get to the heart of knowing each educator deeply for who they are both in and out of their classrooms.  

Episode Mentions:

• Matt's school -  Mineral Point Elementary School (Wisconsin)
• Cognitive Coaching: Developing Self-Directed Leaders and Learners (Christopher-Gordon New Editions) 3rd Edition by Arthur L. Costa
• Regie Routman - Read, Write, Lead: Breakthrough Strategies for Schoolwide Literacy Success (2014)
• Micki Uppena Mineral Point Elementary School  (Librarian)
• The Marshall Memo 
• Heather Fisher
• Jennifer Garvey Berger

Matt's Publications:

• 7 Questions I Ask Myself When Working with Educators Resistant to Change (February 2023)
• Leading LIke a C.O.A.C.H.: 5 Strategies for Supporting Teaching and Learning (2022)
• Classroom Libraries: Who Owns the Reading? (WSRA Journal, 2019)
• Busting Myths, Telling Truths (Language Magazine, January 2018)
• Digital Portfolios in the Classroom: Showcasing and Assessing Student Work (2017)
• Five Myths About Classroom Technology: How do we integrate digital tools to truly enhance learning? (ASCD Arias) (2015)

Connect and Learn with Matt:

• on his website & newsletter
• on Twitter (@ReadByExample)
• on LinkedIn

When teachers, coaches, administrators, and families grow together, schools change. Students get engaged, get support, and get the chance to thrive. 

Transcript

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Schoolutions - S2 E33: How to Support Educators Resistant to Change with Matt Renwick
 [00:00:00] Olivia: Welcome to Schoolutions, where listening will leave you inspired by solutions to issues you or others you know may be struggling with in the public education system today. I am Olivia Wahl, and I am excited to welcome my guest today, Matt Renwick. Matt has served in public education for over 20 years. He started as a fifth and sixth-grade teacher.

[00:00:25] Olivia: And after seven years of teaching, he served as a dean of students at Junior High, which developed into an assistant principalship along with athletic director duties. Now as an elementary principal in Mineral Point, Wisconsin, Matt is enjoying the curriculum, instruction, and assessment side of education.

[00:00:44] Olivia: Matt's written for the Association for Supervision and Curriculum Development, also known as ASCD, Choice Literacy, and Corwin. He has also taught future administrators and graduate courses on curriculum and instructional leadership for the University of Wisconsin Superior. Without further ado, welcome Matt.

[00:01:06] Matt: Thank you, Olivia. Thanks for having me here.

[00:01:09] Olivia: I am thrilled to have you as a guest. Every episode, I kick off with who an inspiring educator is from your life. So would you share with listeners someone that has inspired you over the years?

[00:01:22] Matt: Wow. Well, I mentioned Regie Routman. I'm good friends with her and. We've known each other for a decade. I would say too, just, you know, people in my building, uh, especially the teachers who have reached the “H” part, I guess, of coach. Where they're, um, they're becoming leaders and learners and one person in particular, our librarian, uh, Micki Uppena. She's been doing this school book budget project where she's bringing kids to audit the library around cultural responsiveness, around interest around diversity-specific needs.

[00:01:53] Matt: You know, one student wanted to have more books on h ADHD in the building because she wanted to be able to speak to her friends about her disability. They get thousands of dollars every year. We find ways to raise it and, and they get to spend it. Uh, the librarian emailed me today, and the kids have selected over a thousand books to purchase.

[00:02:17] Matt: They will survey the whole school, their peers. I'm like, what do you want? What do you want? Um, and then they make all the decisions. And so there's a lot of teachers that can highlight in our building doing cool work, but that's just one that comes, and that's what's inspiring is in my role as a leader, has changed from being very positional to trying to remove the obstacles and encouraging them to take that next step forward.

[00:02:39] Matt: And increasing the resources, the support, reducing the obstacles.

[00:02:43] Olivia: I have followed your writing for years. I was relieved on Halloween of 2020 to know that although you were discontinuing your blog Reading by Example, you were going to continue inspiring your followers via your newsletter, Read by Example, which I look forward to seeing in my inbox. Fast forward to February 10th.

[00:03:06] Olivia: And your newsletter titled 7 Questions I Ask Myself When Working With Educators Resistant to Change. It really struck a chord with me, and I know it would for listeners as well. So I'm thrilled to have you as a guest. The issue that I feel like the newsletter, but your work speaks to so beautifully, is a concern that many in the field of education express, and that's how to approach and reduce the resistance to improve.

[00:03:35] Olivia: I'm going to steal a quote from your newsletter before I have you jump into conversation: “I used to only feel similar frustration or resentment. This is not helpful. These thoughts go nowhere and sometimes stay in my head to rattle around as I try to go to sleep. Now, I try to approach these situations not viewing a person as an obstacle but rather as a person experiencing the obstacle. I look to support rather than simply supervise. Just as important. I own this challenge as much as them.”

[00:04:11] Olivia: It's beautiful, and I love that you're walking alongside the teachers that you support. So let's jump right in. Matt, what are some of the common questions that other educational leaders ask you?

[00:04:26] Matt: Well, thanks again for being a reader, and that article did resonate elsewhere too. I know The Marshall Memo picked it up and summarized it. I think just going first to that article you mentioned, you know, where does that come from? I've tried to be more, I guess, compassionate to teachers or other leaders who are trying to be effective, have impact.

[00:04:45] Matt: And especially in leadership, we don't always see that, you know, it's so much in our heads, and we only have so much influence, and it goes nowhere when we get resentful or feel frustrated. So I think just approaching these points of resistance as like data. Like, okay, this person's struggling with this thing. What might it be?

[00:05:06] Matt: And I'm trying to be more of a detective versus an evaluator. Not that I'm not an evaluator at times, but for a lot of these issues, it's usually something that's in their way, and sometimes it's things I've created. Maybe it's a poor schedule that just doesn't give them enough consistent time for the literacy block.

[00:05:24] Matt: I've done that. Maybe it's I've put too many duties on someone and they don't wanna say anything. I've done that. So a lot of these questions are borne out of environments and conditions I've created, and I arrived at a point where I, I need to first start, I guess with me and just, and what can I own here to help?

[00:05:44] Matt: So, going to the other question about what I hear leaders talking about, I keep like a spreadsheet and people will come up to me, or they'll email me and say: Hey, I have this issue with blank. So, I'm up to like 26, 27, 28…I lost count. But as I read through 'em all, they all kind of boil down to how can I get this other person to improve?

[00:06:06] Matt: Or how can I get this other person to be the teacher I want them to be? So then we have these expectations wherever up here, and we're not thinking about like logical next small steps, just like we did with our students. What's that next logical step that's doable, that isn't too scary? And, and that's where those seven questions came from.

[00:06:25] Matt: But yeah, they're all versions of how can I get teachers to, to improve? And so I'm starting to point the fingers back at me and. What can I do? What can I model? What can I cultivate, I guess, to demonstrate that?

[00:06:38] Olivia: Yeah, and I love that you're humble enough as a leader to start with yourself and to acknowledge, you know, some of the obstacles could have been put into place unintentionally, but the impact still is there, right?

[00:06:51] Matt: Oh yeah.

[00:06:52] Olivia: And I think it's so important for us to consider that if there is a teacher that is resistant for whatever reason, it becomes a school-wide problem.

[00:07:04] Olivia: It is not just a one-on-one problem, it's impacting children, and there's just a ripple effect. So can you say more about how it does become a school-wide problem when you have even one teacher that's resistant?

[00:07:18] Matt: Yeah, two ways. I think the first way is if this teacher's having a problem with this specific obstacle. For example, one principal spoke to me about I can't get this teacher to commit to a goal. So this is a veteran teacher. Uh, the principal was a secondary administrator and didn't have a lot of experience in this teacher's discipline.

[00:07:39] Matt: I think it was English. It really, I think it came down to a commitment. This person, this teacher didn't wanna commit to something, and if they could just defer to the administrator, and then if they were to fail, then it's like, well, you told me to do this. So, I wrote a book last year Leading LIke a C.O.A.C.H.: 5 Strategies for Supporting Teaching and Learning. And that's what the seven questions are based actually around.

[00:07:59] Matt: And they all come back to trust, it seemed like too. Like going back to the first part, how can I get a teacher from point A to point B? And the obstacle usually is founded on trust. So, in that case, I think it was neither of them felt confident in each other… 

[00:08:18] Olivia: Yeah.

[00:08:18] Matt: ..to collectively improve, and we didn't have a lot of time. I was at a conference in Ohio. It was after the institute that I had hosted, and I think if I'd had more time to spend with that person, I would say how could you humble yourself, I guess, and say you're the expert here. And I, I almost think of it like a teeter-totter.

[00:08:37] Olivia: Yeah.

[00:08:37] Matt: Often, as principals, were up here on the teachers here in, in terms of perception, I'm the authority figure.

[00:08:45] Matt: I'm at the top of the hierarchy, and that's one thing I would recommend is to mentally put ourselves down at the bottom and just come as a learner and say, just tell me more about your discipline and what you bring to the classroom and what are your strengths? And I think if we start there, it just positions us in a different way in the teacher's eyes, I think often.

[00:09:04] Matt: And they know it's low stakes, high trust, and then we can get on the same page in terms of where we want to go with our goals. So that's one example I think to what you were asking.

[00:09:15] Olivia: Yeah, it is. And I, I also, I think that you are in this really awkward position. It's not a coach per se, an instructional coach, but you do have to be evaluative and yet have trust, and it's really challenging. And so yes, in your heart, you want to stay curious. You want to stay compassionate as a leader.

[00:09:36] Olivia: And, I think what you're saying, and I'm hearing from you, is the main way to do that is to really get to know each of your teachers, just like you expect them to know each of their students in a way that goes far beyond professional learning, far beyond curricula. It's getting to the heart of what makes you jump out of bed every day to come to our building and to commit to children?

[00:10:03] Olivia: And what I love about the seven questions that you list, it's all about really taking the time to get to know someone and what matters most to them. So those seven questions, the first question: Do I know them as a person beyond their position? That's huge.

[00:10:19] Olivia: Second question: Am I consistent between what I say and what I do? Do you walk the walk, right? Three: Am I engaging in conversation with this person from a stance of curiosity? I want to go back to that because that's something I'm working on too, as a coach and teacher. Four: Have they been offered opportunities for input around our school-wide literacy work?

[00:10:42] Olivia: It's huge, and time is of the essence often when decisions have to be made. Five: Is it clear for this person what we are working toward and why it's important? That what, how, and why is everything in education. Six: Have I recognized this person for their strengths and successes prior to communicating feedback just like we would for children?

[00:11:05] Olivia: Seven: Is the feedback I have communicated a reasonable next step for this person? So these seven questions are absolutely phenomenal, and I think because of parallel practice, we could also use these when we're thinking about our students. 

[00:11:21] Matt: Yeah.

[00:11:21] Olivia: It's a perfect parallel there. So how do you get to know your teachers as people?

[00:11:28] Matt: Yeah. I think the first part of the year, although you can start this any time if you haven't done, uh, what we call instructional walks. So they're informal classroom visits. They're not evaluative. They’re not judgmental. Some people have pushed back and said, well, you can't unsee something when you go in a classroom.

[00:11:44] Matt: Right? But you know, there's very few times where we have to step in. I'll just see them walking around and I'll just chat 'em up and I'm not a big small talker, but it's something I've gotten better at, and I'll just learn something about them. I know one person has a cabin an hour north of where we live and really likes to go there but hasn't been able to cuz of weather.

[00:12:07] Matt: I know another person - they love to travel and I'll say: Hey, where are you going next on your next trip? And it's not manipulative. I try not to be forced, but just try to be genuine about it. And, um, just gives us like a talking point, you know, an entry point.

[00:12:21] Olivia: Mm-hmm.

[00:12:22] Matt: So that's, that's one way, one way you can assess it is this was an idea from a Choice Literacy contributor Heather Fisher.

[00:12:29] Matt: And just take a piece of paper, fold it in half. And then, or just draw a line down the middle, a t-chart and time yourself for two minutes and just write down one person's name in your school, and then write down one thing you know about them that's not about school. And then the timer goes off, and then you look and see who's left.

[00:12:49] Matt: And then the people who are left, you know, you haven't listed, those are the people you might wanna learn a little bit more about.

[00:12:54] Olivia: Same with the kids in our classroom. Um, and I want to zoom in actually on the third question. Am I engaging in conversation with this person from a stance of curiosity? And something I'm being coached around, um, is don't ask questions that you already know the answer to.

[00:13:13] Matt: Oh, I like that.

[00:13:14] Olivia: Right? 

[00:13:15] Matt: Yeah.

[00:13:15] Olivia: And oh my gosh, that was a huge aha for me. And again, it's not with mal intent or even a passive-aggressive stance. It’s with good intent. But now, when I'm offering feedback or trying to craft a coaching note before I debrief with a teacher, I always. pause and say, is this something I couldn't possibly know the answer to? 

[00:13:38] Matt: Mm-hmm.

[00:13:38] Olivia: And then if the answer is yes, I know it's a good question, right?

[00:13:42] Matt: Yeah.

[00:13:42] Olivia: Is it going to spark curiosity in this educator to try to start a dialogue back and forth? So that's what I'm being coached around, and it's been a game changer. 

[00:13:51] Matt: Mm-hmm.

[00:13:51] Olivia: And how do you communicate, um, the fifth question: Is it clear for this person what we're working toward and why? How do you communicate that with your staff?

[00:14:03] Matt: A lot of this work that I've written about or shared about comes from two sources. So one is Cognitive Coaching. I'm not a cognitive coach, and I'm glad you brought that up before. I'm not an instructional coach. When I do like a webinar, or I'll do a half-day training, one of the first things that I say is I'm not an instructional coach, just to make that clear.

[00:14:23] Matt: But regarding that number five question about clarity. Cognitive coaching was the first resource. The other one is Read, Write, Lead: Breakthrough Strategies for Schoolwide Literacy Success, Regie Routman's work around school-wide literacy excellence. 

[00:14:36] Olivia: Yes.

[00:14:36] Matt: And, uh, she's not the only one that's talked about it, but bringing in, instructional frameworks. So terms of practices that are desirable to use in classrooms, and it has, you know, description. Now we can write it, it can be a one-pager, and then I can put it out there as, for example, self-directed learning. Students are able to pose their own questions as one description of self-directed learning or student discussion. Who's posing the questions? Is it interrogative, or is it more thought-provoking?

[00:15:09] Matt: You know, so those are the types of things, but everyone will read that framework, and they'll get a different meaning in their mind. If there's 20 teachers in your building, they have 20 understandings of that student discussion or self-directed learners, so, so that's where the walks come in. Once I've developed relationships, gotten to know them, and then I will kind of like what you said with questions.

[00:15:30] Matt: I'll note five to seven things I noticed in the classroom. You know, student quotes, what the environment feels like and what the teacher's doing, what the students are saying. And I'll take some of that evidence, and I'll wrap it around a question. So I might say yeah, I noticed that you had kids working in pairs.

[00:15:46] Matt: Um, they were talking about their learning. Um, what went into this discussion in your planning prior to this happening that led to your success? So that's a genuine question, and it's not about. What's the answer? It's not like “A-B-C,” you know, and “C” is correct. It's getting them to reflect back to their whole thinking process of what were the steps they took and why did you place this kid with this kid?

[00:16:09] Matt: And this is very good for especially veteran teachers who I've shared with other people like they've forgotten more than I will ever know about their classroom instruction. So it's not that they need new ideas. They need to, in my opinion, keep coming back to what they're doing. They just take for granted, you know, I've always done this, and I'm like, yeah, but a lot of people need to know what you're doing.

[00:16:29] Matt: And, and so that might be how I end that conversation is, do you mind if I share what you're doing in here and in terms of how you set up student discussion that's successful with maybe a less veteran colleague? And that's a wonderful affirmation, and it, it's truly curious.

[00:16:44] Olivia: It is. And Matt, it's also building professional capital across your staff, right?

[00:16:51] Matt: Mm-hmm.

[00:16:51] Olivia: Like, What are each teacher's strengths, and how are we gonna tag people out so they can go and get into each other's rooms? 

[00:16:57] Matt: Yeah.

[00:16:57] Olivia: Um, and it's not, I, I don't even think it's a veteran or not, or a newer teacher. Everyone has different assets that we can build upon, right? 

[00:17:05] Matt: Mm-hmm.

[00:17:05] Olivia: And I also think that you are masterful with building collective efficacy, and those terms go hand in hand. How do we get smarter together? A huge part of that is risk-taking and feeling comfy with, you know, I'm safe to take a risk. I'm safe to live in this world of messiness that teaching is. So yeah, you're explaining that why and what they're working toward.

[00:17:30] Olivia: But I think it's also really important that when you're offering feedback, it's a reasonable next step… 

[00:17:36] Matt: Mm-hmm.

[00:17:36] Olivia: …just like we would for our children. So how do you pick for each teacher (right?) that zone of proximal development, next step for them?

[00:17:46] Matt: Well, I try not to pick it.

[00:17:49] Olivia: Ah.

[00:17:50] Matt: Because once I start giving advice or a suggestion, and not that I don't give suggestions. So I was meeting with some teachers after an observation, and just we're talking, and these are the five things we noticed, and here was the process you took to get there. When I asked that question, I'll just ask like, based on what I shared with you and what you're thinking about, what do you think might be a logical next step?

[00:18:10] Matt: And if there's any role for improvement here? And it's just really interesting because I'll do a lot of paraphrasing of noticing what I've noticed. Then more times than not, they've already come up with it because they've heard me say it. They might say, well, you know, one thing I might do is the conversations were good, but I think what I'll do is I'll work with the special education teacher to give some background knowledge for this one student because I noticed this student wasn't as independent as it wanted them to be.

[00:18:36] Olivia: Yeah.

[00:18:36] Matt: Cause we were talking about maybe independence and discussion based on the framework. If they're stuck though, and they're like, I don't know; then I might say, well, here's one thing I was thinking about. I'm asking permission then just as one idea, but take it or leave it. So, I always try to work toward creating the conditions where they're coming up with the next idea and then they own it.

[00:18:56] Matt: You know, I don't know what the average tenure year of a principal is now, three to four years. 

[00:19:00] Olivia: Yeah.

[00:19:00] Matt: You know, we're always dependent on a great principal coming in; I don't know how we can build collective efficacy. So, when we get feedback, it's not just about today, but it's about building their capacity to direct their own learning and build those thinking routines and confidence to coach themselves.

[00:19:17] Olivia: And so let's circle back. You did publish a book recently. 

[00:19:20] Matt: Mm-hmm!

[00:19:20] Olivia: And it was February of 2022.

[00:19:24] Matt: I know the…

[00:19:24] Olivia: My gosh, it's almost a year. Isn't that bananas? 

[00:19:28] Matt: book-a-versary! 

[00:19:28] Olivia: You already threw the title out there - Leading LIke a C.O.A.C.H.: 5 Strategies for Supporting Teaching and Learning. And “C.O.A.C.H.”  - each letter of the word has a period after because each letter stands for something.

[00:19:41] Olivia: Um, “C”: create confidence through trust. “O”: Organize around a priority. “A”: Affirm promising practices. “C”: communicate feedback, and “H”: help teachers become leaders and learners. And those seven questions, as you said, are derived, or they're based on your book? You know, I think it's really hard when everyone wants the best for students and we're working together.

[00:20:08] Olivia: And yet there are some obstacles that feel like they're too big to remove. And so what's our call to action as listeners to just support educators from outside in? What would you say? Like how can we start this work right away?

[00:20:26] Matt: Yeah, those big gnarly challenges that just then cause us anxiety and may cause us to not move at all. 

[00:20:36] Olivia: Mm-hmm.

[00:20:36] Matt: And so I think with those big problems, like how are we gonna get these kids to 80% proficiency? And what I've asked, or I would encourage people to ask themselves: Is that a problem that you can solve?

[00:20:46] Matt: No. Okay. What could you do tomorrow that would maybe nudge you in the right direction toward that 80%? Know that core instruction is good: Oh, I could analyze my lesson plans and make sure that I'm asking for kids to think maybe at higher levels. Okay. You know. And then I might say: That's one option. What's another?

[00:21:07] Matt: And that's a question that comes from another resource with Jennifer Garvey Berger. Another option might be: Well, I can make sure I'm not teaching too long cause I see that a lot. And at many schools, teachers go on and on cuz they wanna make sure the kid has mastered it, but then we are trading off independent reading time or trading off read aloud.

[00:21:26] Matt: So now we've got two options. What's another option? Well, if I'm teaching less, then they can read more. So maybe I'll try to do more conferring and work specifically with those kids that, well, they all need my support, but maybe that one kid who I know just needs some more coaching and more confidence.

[00:21:42] Matt: All right, those are three options. Of those three, which one do you think might move the needle, so to speak, tomorrow? And so, again, I'm building resourcefulness with them. I'm not giving them advice unless they ask for it or they feel like they just need some direction, and now they've got three different choices. 

[00:22:00] Matt: And that can give 'em a whole month's worth of-two months worth of focus, you know? And it's like, oh, I know three things I could do, and they have options every day. So I think that's ultimately my goal with working with faculty is always feeling like they have options and, when they get overwhelmed, come back to those things.

[00:22:27] Olivia: Yeah. I love the choice because choice is voice, as we say often in this work. I think your teachers would say that you've made it safe for them…

[00:22:27] Matt: Yeah.

[00:22:27] Olivia: …to give you feedback as well. So how can your staff offer you the real feedback you try to offer them?

[00:22:35] Matt: Every year I do a survey through a Google form. One year it was on trust. This year it was actually kind of broke down, Leading Like a C.O.A.C.H.: 5 Strategies for Supporting Teaching and Learning, uh, chapters. And just used some questions that you mentioned, collective efficacy, crafted, some questions around that, crafted some questions around, are we clear on priorities?

[00:22:54] Matt: Actually, the seven questions, you know, you could reframe those and make it a survey. And so then what I do is I publish the results. So here are my top three strengths, according to you. And then, you know, yay. And then here are my lowest three result areas. And of the three, which one do you think I should work on the most?

[00:23:14] Matt: My lowest one was follow-through on commitments and responsibilities and things like that. I think in the past I would've gotten defensive about that, and I was like, oh no, you know, here are the five things I've done to, to address your needs. And, and now I'm just like, oh, thank you for letting me know that.

[00:23:31] Matt: Now there are some underlying issues, right, with like lack of resources and money and time. Um, but I don't share that anymore because it doesn't fix anything. Again,

[00:23:41] Olivia: No.

[00:23:42] Matt: They've got their own problems. And then what I do is then I'll make a list of things I can do within better meeting my commitments and reducing disruptions.

[00:23:50] Matt: So, uh, when I meet one of those things, I like tick it off. I'll put it in my staff newsletter, say: Hey, here's something I did to improve following through on responsibilities. And it could be something super boring like, Hey, I finished my title one grant application and we got it done in record time, but then they know what we're I'm doing.

[00:24:08] Matt: And I, teachers don't know what principles are doing. Sometimes they think we're just sitting around waiting for kids to come down to their office. And so I think it's good for leaders to be public, at least with some of the more managerial tasks. Because when things are going great, no one really notices; it’s when things are going wrong.

[00:24:26] Olivia: Yeah, it's the stress.

[00:24:28] Matt: Oh yeah.

[00:24:30] Olivia: The more you can be in classrooms, the better off we all are. And I know COVID was just impossibly challenging in a million different ways and even the sub shortages…

[00:24:45] Matt: Yeah.

[00:24:45] Olivia: …and sicknesses are still having just an incredible effect. Well, all of us are grateful for leaders like you, and I adore your newsletters. Please keep them coming. They help me pause. They're just enough.

[00:24:59] Matt: Good.

[00:25:59] Olivia: …uh, to get me thinking and I'm just grateful for your voice in the educational field. And I think your questions in the way you approach leadership, it's refreshing, and I know listeners will too. Thank you, Matt, so much.

[00:25:13] Matt: Thank you, Olivia. I appreciate the time to chat with you.

[00:25:17] Olivia: Yeah, absolutely. Take Care. Schoolutions is a podcast created, produced, and edited by me, Olivia Wahl. Special thanks to my guest, Matt Renwick. Thanks to my older son Benjamin, who created the music that's playing in the background. If you like Schoolutions, please share, rate, review, and follow us on Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook @schoolutionspodcast. If you want to reach out, leave me a SpeakPipe voice memo at my website: www.oliviawahl.com/podcast or via email @schoolutionspodcast@gmail.com. Don't forget to talk about us nicely on social media, and please keep listening. Let's continue finding inspiration together.