S3 E17: Streamlining Your Curriculum with the Storyboard Approach with Allison Zmuda and Dr. Heidi Hayes Jacobs

The extraordinary Allison Zmuda and Dr. Heidi Hayes Jacobs have collaborated to co-create a fresh approach to curriculum design. Allison and Heidi inspire in this episode as they share critical elements of their recently released book, Streamlining Curriculum: Using the Storyboard Approach to Frame Compelling Learning Journeys. Listeners will leave the conversation motivated and with a reenvisioned understanding of streamlining and storyboarding regarding curriculum development.

A big thank you to Allison, Heidi, and ASCD, who are so generous in offering a 25% off PROMO CODE (STREAM25), active 1/2/24–4/2/24, for Streamlining Curriculum: Using the Storyboard Approach to Frame Compelling Learning Journeys via ASCD.org.

Episode Mentions:

• Robert J. Marzano, PhD
• CBS Sunday Morning
• Sample Storyboard (Energy)
• Curriculum Storyboards Website & YouTube Channel

Connect & Learn with Allison

• at her website & Learning Personalized
• on Twitter 
• on LinkedIn
• on YouTube (Learning Personalized)

Connect & Learn with Heidi 

• at Curriculum 21
• on Twitter 
• on Instagram
• on Threads
• on Facebook
• on LinkedIn
• on YouTube (Curriculum 21)

#curriculum #curriculumdesign #streamliningcurriculum #curriculumstoryboards #storyboardapproach #thoughtpartners #allisonzmuda #heidihayesjacobs #ascd #edchat

When teachers, coaches, administrators, and families grow together, they create schools where everyone is inspired and every student is fully engaged, supported, and ready to thrive.

Transcript

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Schoolutions – S3 E17: Streamlining Your Curriculum with the Storyboard Approach with Allison Zmuda and Dr. Heidi Hayes Jacobs

[00:00:00] Olivia: Welcome to Schoolutions, where listening will leave you inspired by solutions to issues you or others you know may be struggling with in the public education system today. I am Olivia Wahl, and I am excited to welcome my guests today, Allison Zmuda and Dr. Heidi Hayes Jacobs. Let me tell you a little bit about Allison and Heidi.

[00:00:25] Olivia: Allison Zmuda is a longstanding education consultant focused on curriculum development with an emphasis on personalized learning. Allison appreciates creative expression, especially within education, which led her to create Learning Personalized, a treasure trove of personalized learning efforts by those she has encountered throughout her career.

[00:00:48] Olivia: Dr. Heidi Hayes Jacobs is internationally recognized for her seminal work in contemporary curriculum design, vertical mapping, and modernizing responsive school environments. She is founder and president of the Curriculum Designers Group. Providing professional services to schools and organizations internationally to upgrade curriculum and support teaching strategies to meet the needs of 21st-century learners.

[00:01:16] Olivia: Our conversation today will center around Allison and Heidi's curriculum storyboard work and their co-authored book, Streamlining the Curriculum, released in 2023. I am humbled and honored to welcome both of you as guests today on Schoolutions, Allison and Heidi. Thank you so much for being here. 

[00:01:36] Allison: Pleasure to spend some time with you, Olivia.

[00:01:38] Heidi: Thank you. 

[00:01:39] Olivia: Uh, I have your book right next to me. Let me make sure you can see it. It's just spectacular! And I told you both, I've actually read it twice. Um, and the reason I've read it twice, I always read a professional book for the first time to take it in and process it as a teacher, thinking of how I would utilize it.

[00:02:03] Olivia: And then I read it again, thinking of questions I would have if I could speak to the authors. And here's the gift. I get to ask you these questions today. Um, the design of the book is brilliant. You offer choice for the reader. Um, readers can follow the table of contents in a typical way. What I chose to do both times was follow your design around episodes. And you'll speak more to that later. Um, but there are 12 episodes and those episodes include three action verbs, and these verbs just continue to bounce in my mind as I was reading: engage, examine, and act. Um, and so I, I cannot wait to jump into this conversation. Before we do though, I always ask guests to share an educator from their lives that has inspired them.Um, Heidi, would you mind kicking us off with an educator that's inspired you? 

[00:03:02] Heidi: Olivia, there's so many key teachers in my life and, um, but I am going to mention one when I was in fourth grade. Um, I grew up in Salt Lake City. I moved to the East Coast in my early 20s, but I grew up there and they happened to offer Russian in our elementary school during the Cold War.

[00:03:23] Heidi: And there was an immigrant, uh, Andre Anastasia from now St. Petersburg, then Leningrad, who came to teach Russian to elementary kids. And I'm going to mention him because something changed about school for me. Our program was after school. I remember it made for a long day, but when we go in that room we were in another world. Here we are, little neighborhood kids in Salt Lake City, watching The Firebird Ballet. Listening to Tchaikovsky, we even memorized a poem in Russian by Pushkin, but it was, he was a fascinating man, but he made me feel that school could take me to other places. And so, um, anyway, here's to you, Andre. Thank you.

[00:04:18] Heidi: So, thank you. 

[00:04:21] Olivia:  That's beautiful. Beautiful. Ah, Allison, how about you?

[00:04:26] Allison: So, my, uh, person as I started to think about it was, uh, Edith (Edie) MacMullen, and she was the Director of Teaching and Learning at Yale University. So she not only shepherded the entire program, but she was also just such an incredible mentor to me over the time I was there. So I graduated from Yale with an actual teaching certificate in my hand. So the opportunity of continuing to, um, treat Yale like a trade school is, is a beautiful thing. And to continue to feel that you can actually make a difference in real-time. So, the opportunity to do student teaching in the urban, urban area of New Haven to do my student teaching in at Hamden High School.

[00:05:18] Allison: Um, which has a little more of a suburban flavor to it. And the, and really starting to think about the moments that I had that started to expand my thinking of what's interesting, what's possible, what's relevant, what's doable. That was starting to be my drumbeat. And I think the other wild card is, um, Heidi has also been an incredible teacher for me. We, we start to spin like this kind of fantasy land where one day, Heidi, you, you know what I'm going to say? One day, she says, sometimes we're going to open up a school. Just like Heidi and me and maybe a couple of other people and just teach stuff. I think the opportunity to continue to collaborate and sort of be inspired by the close collaborators I have is just such an incredible gift. So, so thanks, 

[00:06:12] Olivia: I am so honored to have you both as guests today. And I always name an issue that I see in public education and they seek guests that are change makers addressing this issue. Um, not only are you both the solutions, but this book again, is just a tremendous, tremendous resource to use. So I am going to read the issue and solution right from page 2. Hold on to your hats listeners, just a moment. Uh, because you name it so much better than I ever could. “The curriculum as it currently stands is untenable, bloated, overly detailed, and uninspiring.” 

[00:06:57] Olivia: I'm just going to pause there because it could not be more true. I walk the halls of elementary, middle, high schools where students are laying their heads down on desks. We need to get children as engaged and excited as Heidi, you were as a fourth-grade student after school, right? That's what the dream is. And you offer this beautiful solution, and I again will read your words.

[00:07:29] Olivia: “The solution we propose is a fresh way of telling a curriculum story. It's one that calls upon educators to take on a collection of roles that may be unfamiliar.” 

[00:07:53] Olivia: But that's okay, because together you take us through those roles, and you offer a vision and possibility that I cannot wait to share with Schoolution's listeners today. So, I am so excited to kick our conversation off by thinking about the promise of streamlining. Allison, can you help us understand what do you mean by that - the promise of streamlining? 

[00:08:06] Allison: Yeah, so Olivia, first of all, thank you for getting to the, the, the crux of our book. So what you just read on page 2 is just something that Heidi and I truly believe to our core. And I think the idea when it comes to thinking about what streamlining is and what streamlining means, um, it's the opportunity to step back and deal with some basic realities. That we have to have a curriculum that's designed for the actual number of days that we have in a school calendar. So, oftentimes, it's just like this classic joke.

[00:08:44] Allison: I think, um, Bob Marzano, decades ago, made a statement that there are so many standards it would take at least another 150 days to cover all of them. And while the standards have gotten better, the reality of what curriculum looks like really hasn't. So it's designing on a make-believe schedule in terms of how massive it is. But I think the other part when it comes to streamlining, it's also thinking about how we are organizing topics, how we're laying the topics out in a sequence, and how we're starting to think about all of the wealth of possibilities that teachers can start to engage and participate in. 

[00:09:28] Allison: And so all of a sudden, especially, you know, I'm a huge believer in personalized learning, as you know, based on your beautiful introduction, Olivia, sometimes that many choices makes everybody dizzy. Sometimes people start going to this kind of click mode, and then after the first couple clicks, they start to say, that's not for me. I'm going to walk away from this massive treasure trove of stuff and go to another site that is not in tune with what the curriculum hopefully was designed to try to accomplish in the first place.

[00:10:04] Allison: So to Heidi and myself, streamlining is really about the idea of looking back - studying and evaluating your curriculum to determine what is necessary and necessary is not just those essential content and skills. Necessary also can actually go after the dimension of relevance, meaning, authenticity, because we also believe that there has got to be a way of clarifying a through line and it starts with that notion and territory of streamlining. Heidi, do you want to add? 

[00:10:46] Heidi: No, I think you, I think you've laid it out really, really well. I think that it's, uh, the only thing I might say is the actual definition of streamlining from engineering is useful here because streamlining just doesn't mean to cut things out. That's not what it is. It's to make a design better, make it more efficient. Often streamlined products are more aesthetically pleasing too. So it's time as it is in any product or service. We'll look at effective ways of making the decision when the decisions run better, making the curriculum more modern and more streamlined. So that's, that's part of our, our solutions. Part of what we're looking at.

[00:11:34] Olivia: And, I'll add to that. Something that is absolutely fascinating around this notion of streamlining is the, the purposeful narrative that, that is a critical aspect. So, Allison, just to button up that idea of streamlining, what do you mean by purposeful narrative? Why is that critical? 

[00:11:55] Allison: Yeah, I mean, because one opportunity that we think is a missed opportunity right now is to start to have the students be the stewards of their own learning experience. And so when students see things that are happening bit by bit by bit, it's very difficult for them to actually start to synthesize or see those connections. So we really are trying to step back and figure out how do we tell the story of a blank course. 

[00:12:27] Allison: You know, so the idea is that even in something that's so basic as like a U.S. History course, we don't start with, um, a period of time and then move to the next period of time. So it's silly to ask the question. So what happened in 2023 as we're starting to come to a close for that year? It's, it's an odd question because there's so much that happens. So you have to have some way of stepping back and looking through a particular lens. 

[00:12:58] Allison: Whether we're looking through the particular lens of um, a genre, we're looking through the lens of a theme, what they're looking through the lens of case studies, the opportunity to continue to make sure that there's something that is anchored, that is rooted, so that students can start to see and anticipate some of the, the, the deeper through lines that, uh, a curriculum is designed for.

[00:13:24] Heidi: Let me piggyback that with just another way of thinking about it. Right now, I would say overwhelmingly, most every curriculum any educator has was not written directly for students. It wasn't. Standards aren't. Standards are actually pretty obtuse. I mean, there are lists of, uh, officious sounding language that are important, but their function isn't directly to serve kids.

[00:13:53] Heidi: And the funny thing that happens to you when you start teaching is we teach on an “as if” basis. As if they really understood why things are in the sequence they are in. Or as if they understand why this concept in algebra precedes this one. We teach as if all of them understood it and it leads because of the pressure to something called coverage. Which is what you, what, what you found that nugget, and I've got to go back and read page 2, because I agree with what we wrote! It's just too much! But it wasn't written for the actual recipient. And what Allison's pointing to is they don't see the narrative. They don't see the flow. Maybe we have to work hard at not only, it's not just cutting out and that, it's how we write. The language choices that we use.

[00:14:48] Olivia: So I was thinking of both of you this Sunday morning and you didn't even know it. Um, I adore watching the CBS Morning News Show and Ridley Scott was being interviewed. And he was speaking about his most recent movie, but I learned through his interview that he is an artist. And he does spectacular storyboards of every scene of his movies. And so then when he meets with investors, um, he is able to show them the whole vision of the movie. And he actually said that it has oftentimes had investors double their investment because they're able to see the bigger picture. I thought of both of you immediately because that idea of storyboarding, it will up the engagement or investment of our students and teachers, let's face it, if they have that bigger picture. So Heidi, with that in mind, I'm hoping you can offer us perspective and a bit of contextualization around storyboarding in general. 

00:15:56] Heidi: Sure, and the fact that you mentioned Ridley Scott's interesting, because the actual beginning of the phrase, the term we found in our research, was the Walt Disney Studios, when they were working on animation, and they made these spectacular animated films, and they would storyboard each one. And remember, a whole slew of illustrators would be asked to create, create a Snow White or a Pinocchio or, um, a Geppetto and lay them out, but it was that sequencing, um, that many of our greatest filmmakers use it. What, what really caught it, and I want to make sure we are connecting, in the spirit of connection, the idea of streamlining to storyboarding.

[00:16:42] Heidi: We absolutely saw there was too much, and part of what we outline in our book is a procedure for making choices about what to cut, keep, create. But we kept going; it's not sufficient. And for us, the storyboarding piece emerged during the pandemic. Which we write about in the book. Where schools suddenly were in, many schools in our country and around the world were in lockdown.

[00:17:09] Heidi: Students were home. We were being sent pages, volumes of lists of activities, and it was written in EduSpeak. And in response to some of the school districts we were working with, we thought, well maybe if the parents and the kids understood what it was, and it was simplified, we could work on that.

[00:17:33] Heidi: So we began to lay it out and suddenly we were going, you know, this is actually a storyboard. And what we also researched was imagery, and I could hold off on that for a moment, because you, I know you, you probably want to get a little more into the elements in a moment. But the idea was, it's not just the streamlining, it's the actual format. When we looked at so many templates, and we, we used the phrase, the tyranny of templates. And we used it with a few of our colleagues, and they'd all go, oh, that is so the truth. Lots of demand and curriculum templates, and by the time you fill them all out, you have no energy to think about how you're going to talk about inspiration, you're just exhausted. It was a combination of those things. If that helps set it a little bit in the context. Allison, do you want to add something to that?

[00:18:23] Allison: Yeah, there are a couple of things that resonated as you started to clarify that, Heidi. The first is I was with a school division last week and one of the teacher leaders there said it takes me longer to fill out my lesson plan template form than it does to actually teach the lesson. So, it's like from a tyranny of template kind of thing, it's like, what are we doing? You know, in terms of how are we trying to sort of step back and shift the idea that we're trying to get the opportunity to focus on the thinking, the conversation, the action, um, and it doesn't mean that any kind of planning is bad.

[00:19:08] Allison: Please don't get Heidi and I wrong on that. But we're also trying to figure out how to continue to make the template to be more functional, to be more usable, and ultimately to be more compelling, more interesting. Because if the teacher has gone on autopilot, as they're continuing to fill out the form, the likelihood that that will be contagious to the student is again, part of the conundrum. I think the other part that I want to continue to emphasize related to COVID, Heidi and I, we affectionately called, um, this our, um, COVID project. So lots of people made sourdough. We actually did this. Um, one of the fun things, but again, the tough things is that we found that when it started to feel very clinical, when teachers started to draft items, assignments, et cetera, and turn it over to families, to students, the narration got lost along the way.

[00:20:15] Allison: And as we continue to go after this - Heidi and myself continue to emphasize the teacher is more important now than ever before. Because they are the original storytellers around the curriculum. So the notion of narrative story, storyline really is an opportunity for the teacher to first and foremost, begin to actually have that kind of narrative long view, but the second part right after it is that students are then taking the mantle, taking the lead in navigating their own way of making connections, deepening their skills, better understanding a particular topic so that they can actually not only be engaged, engaged to what end.

[00:21:06] Allison: So engage means that they are more fascinated by problems, issues, and challenges, and they're also more intrigued by engaging in conversations with one another, actually starting to push and elevate the opportunity for new problems, projects, and ideas that are squarely situated into what they find fascinating. 

[00:21:29] Olivia: So let's, let's talk parallel practice for a moment because Allison, your teacher roles have been integral in my work as a coach and an educator, and I think that thinking of the classroom facilitator and coach, thinking of curriculum designer, assessor, advisor, um, going through communicator and, just thinking of those roles - when I am planning a lesson I am thinking of how am I balancing those roles as an educator to enable students to run with the work, to fly. I also think there's something to be said both of your work in this book, it allows teachers to have that long-term vision, that bigger picture, so they can be fluid in the day-to-day. It's not that slog through a minilesson planning template.

[00:22:31] Olivia: They can go right to what do my students need based on what they're saying, what they're doing, what they're making. Um, and so because you're creating this beautiful narrative, you have this, this picture, this vision, it allows for the fluidity on that day-to-day basis. And that's the gift. But we cannot be fluid in our day-to-day work if we do not have a long-term plan that's relevant and engaging for students. So I'm grateful for that. So just to linger there a moment, Allison, would you name the roles you see students taking on in this work with specificity? Cause I think this is groundbreaking. 

[00:23:15] Allison: Yeah. I mean, it takes something as basic as communicator. So what's the qualities? What are the descriptors that go on the front end of communicator? So what is a contemporary communicator look like? What forms or formats are they communicating in so we might start to play with the idea of a phrase or two in front of communicator. So we care that they're responsive and respectful communicators. We care they're thoughtful and strategic. That they are adaptive and flexible in their ability to communicate with others and so the opportunity in the name of a particular role. There are a couple of criteria that Heidi and I started to clarify. I think it was episode 2 of the book, of starting to say, in terms of this role, first and foremost, is it a contemporary one?

[00:24:13] Allison: And in what ways can we actually craft the language? Even if the way we're defining communicator, that's another way to craft it. But I think the second and something Heidi and I were talking about this morning, um, they have to actually have an opportunity to practice to play and get feedback on their capacity as a communicator. Because if it's not built into the bedrock of classroom practice, then all of a sudden, it's what I, I affectionately call classroom wall art.

[00:24:49] Allison: We have these pretty statements on the wall but it's dysfunctional in how we assess and assess again is designed to be something where we are again engaging in contemporary connected ways that actually can translate not only to what mark, we might ultimately get, but I can see the power and the value of it across the capacity, whether it's different classrooms or inside of school and outside of school.

[00:25:22] Allison: So, I don't know, Olivia, if that was a quick snippet, but even the most classical roles right now of communicator, problem solver, critical thinker, those roles are not the issue. It's the way that we are crafting what do we mean by that and how are we very much integrating that into our curricular experience.

[00:25:47] Heidi: One thing we are, I just want to step back and say I'm really glad you picked up on the roles of Olivia, because we see that if I am - sometimes people say, don't teach the material, teach the kid. But we're saying, you're also teaching to the role we want to develop in the kid. That we do that in the arts and athletics. Athletic coaches teach kids to be players! They don't say, oh, I'm going to teach you about softball, or you're a music teacher, you're going to be an oboe player. I think one thing to add and build on, and what I love is you did take a classical role because I think sometimes say people to give lip service to these and they really do need to go deeper on communicating.

[00:26:31] Heidi: And in addition, there are roles that are very, very right now. Students need to be self-navigators. They can reach in their pocket. They can go anywhere in the world; they can get information. They need to be better at making decisions that way. So we've got to give them those opportunities. If you want innovative designers and the curriculum has to give them opportunities to innovate, not just a token gesture. So the interesting thing that happens, it's a boomerang, just to curse me, it's a teaching boomerang. If I am going to teach my kids, I'm going to really cultivate you guys to be innovative designers, then it comes back at me to look at what I'm laying out in this storyboard, or in this learning opportunity that gives you a chance to do that thing. In partnership with you. 

[00:27:22] Olivia: It's brilliant. So then with that said, as we are learning how to craft storyboards ourselves, you know, it may seem daunting to those listening, but hold on to your hats because you so brilliantly have streamlined, no pun intended, but kind of intended, four foundational elements of a curriculum storyboard to help and support us in this journey. Um, so Heidi, would you mind outlining what those four elements are? 

[00:27:55] Heidi: Yeah, I think what Allison said really well was about form should follow function. But if, in fact, right now, not the storyboard world, you have so many forms with so many details, and you said jokingly, but isn't it painful that the teacher doesn't have time to spend more time filling in and out than doing it, then the actual form isn't supporting the function. In fact, if I were going to try to find a way to make it so teachers wouldn't want to teach, boy, I got, I got some good evidence out there. So, what we want to do is, in a storyboard model, there's a simplicity, but it isn't simplistic. And there is, there is what we think is one of the most fundamental points, which is lay out a year.

[00:28:43] Heidi: In a sense, it's like a series. It's episodic. So, the units are connected. But first, we want titles that are engaging. Think like a creative writer, because this is creative writing. You're just writing curriculum. What will engage them, but also capture the essence of the concept that's there, as opposed to we're doing chapter one.

[00:29:04] Heidi: Please, or even better, unit one. I don't even know what it's about. We'll figure it out when we get there, by the way. We want the titles, but we want them to kind of lay out and make sense. And then I think one of the the key things was that image cue. And the deeper we got, the more we got into it. The more smitten we were with iconography, with capturing a really good image that could be at the top of a photograph, could be a work of art, um, and eventually to teach kids about how to do this.

[00:29:34] Heidi: But what we know from the brain research is that people function better and quicker and retain better with visual cues that underscore the focus and one of the first things we always get when we show a storyboard is a little bit about. Oh, wow. Because suddenly it makes more sense. You can actually see how it works. So it's not just any old picture. Um, and then for each of the units, what we're looking at is a focus of the story. And this is - we have worked long and hard. And I would say now with the schools I'm working with right now, this is the place with the traditional behavioral objectives. Well, here's the aims. You can start with that, and then we convert it with the student-friendly language that parents could read. But here's to me the key, the teachers rediscover why they're doing it, because they're not cutting and pasting. What's going to happen? What are the kids going to do? Can you do this in a paragraph?

[00:30:34] Heidi: That's a turnkey. And then, um, in the book we mentioned student connections. There are several options here. One could be student response as you go. It could be learning targets that you're working on that are student-friendly I can statements. Um, it could be authentic assessments that the major ones, but again, keeping it in mind, major ones that show evidence of the learning and that students are engaged in. Um, but you can also with some of the software platforms that are coming out. You can, you can click and it converts into a more traditional template so you can have all your standards and everything spelled out. It doesn't mean you don't do those things. It means you simplify, streamline, and make it palatable for the kids. Allison, I'd love you to add any other thoughts on that. 

[00:31:27] Allison: Yeah, I mean, what's, what's fascinating is when people begin to lay out ideas for their curriculum storyboard, they often start to realize how jarring it is. So they have unit one, do you know what I mean, and they have like just something that is very basic and very traditional. And then they come up with a very basic image. You know what I mean? So I'm thinking about, like, I was designing an Algebra 1 curriculum with a fabulous, um, uh, curriculum lead in Texas. And again, she, like, put, like, a traditional title, like, Linear Equations, and then showed a graph of, like, and it's just a visualized Linear Equations.

[00:32:12] Allison: And it's like, when I looked at it, I was like, so how is this energizing for students and she's like, it's just not. So there's a level of like, oh, geez, do I mean this? It's like, how do I even make this interesting or dynamic? And so I think the theory is that there has to be a level of playfulness. I think I want to continue to underscore that for your listeners and that you can lay out something that is basic and traditional, and that's a legit great first small step. But your massive next step is to step back and say, how can I make this more just, it's not enjoyable, because I'm just trying to figure out the right word, but it's really something that actually sparks your thinking, that I actually want to spend a little more time being engaged and immersed in this.

[00:33:11] Allison: So, I think the last part around the focus of the story, I oftentimes, um, I have folks begin to rework it instead of the student will do next. It's we are going to do or we're exploring because I think the other dimension is that the, the teacher, the, the head leader in the classroom is actually partnering with the students.

[00:33:39] Allison: So if learning truly is a voluntary endeavor, then we want to make it so, like, from a hierarchy, you're moving it down to this space. Because conceptually is that's how we're actually thinking and working together. It's what students are bringing to the table, all of their prior knowledge and personal experience ripe with their areas of fascination and wonderment, as well as their misconceptions and misunderstandings about topics or concepts or skills or how things work.

[00:34:11] Allison: And it's that, that integral way of thinking and working and connecting. That's really at the core of the focus of the story. So it's not a students will do, it's the we will begin to explore. And this is the kind of problem, task, challenge, inquiry, that we're going to be experiencing to become more skillful at X. I mean, so I think that's the space or the theory around the focus of the story. 

[00:34:42] Heidi: Let me add one other note of it, because I think and Allison's going to love me for this. Um, one of the things we keep saying is the story. So we, we looked squarely and it was sobering to see how units right now may be well designed, but they're siloed. They're like, and then this, and the expectation, remember the what if, you know, or as if, pardon me. is as if the kids had studied algebra before and see how everything's connected. So one of the things we work hard on in the focus of the story is to also write it as narrative so there's something that connects. Remember, you know, like in our last minute or building on the concept. In our, the website we've put together, there's that a wonderful fifth grade example on energy. 

[00:35:41] Allison: Yeah. It's in the book too. 

[00:35:44] Heidi: Yeah. I was showing it to some teachers recently, Allison, and that was the first thing they noticed. They went, Oh my gosh I read across, I even understand better how all these units are connected, and I'm going, you're expecting kids to see those connections, they didn't major in science. So, the, the, the idea is the style is very, it's not just, oh, it looks great, mm mm. There's really thoughtful writing involved. 

[00:36:14] Allison: Well, and Heidi, I mean, it reminds me of the story, um, I think I've told you this before, Nancy, who was the powerhouse that designed that 5th-grade storyboard and started, to prototype it in Virginia Beach, um, she actually did one prototyping session and a teacher like looked at it and then started like shaking her head, like with like a very grumpy expression on her face and Nancy said, it's like, what's going on?

[00:36:40] Allison: What's what's upsetting you? And she goes, if I had only known that this, that energy was the seminal focus, I would have made very different instructional choices. And so in that moment, you know, again, a 5th-grade teacher teaching multiple subject areas, the opportunity of beginning to see the power of what curriculum storyboards are, it's not just a sequence to make learning more accessible and interesting from a student point of view, it actually helps teachers to start to get real clear on what is the area of emphasis so that when I have this wealth of instructional material that I get to pick and choose from, that opportunity is hardwired to the idea of what that focus on energy is in that grade 5 example.

[00:37:37] Allison: So that's something that's featured in the book. You can also see it on our website in, in full color. Color is important too, um, but yeah, so that's, that's just adds a little more dimension to it because oftentimes one of the people, people always ask when they start looking at curriculum storyboards is who is this actually for and it's really a misunderstanding to say it is only for the students. It's also for families so that they can begin to see sort of the scope and the flow of the experience so that they can be more. Um, interactive, you know, in conversations with their kiddos when they come home. But it's also certainly for the, for the teachers so that they actually have a broader concept of what it is that they're after. And it's also for, um, other staff members, an administrator, actually building principals got so energized by looking at early prototypes to start to say, my gosh, if I actually had this, then I could be much more, you know, strategic and approachable as I sit in PLC meetings, as I do my classroom observations, et cetera, so…

[00:38:51] Olivia: So you're walking in my mind for many reasons because that idea of a feedback loop - I think teaching sometimes feels so lonely. And one of my favorite things to do with grownups. is to think of curriculum design and to tease it out of, you know, what do we want students leaving this unit of study with? I think we miss so many opportunities though to bring students in. And to offer feedback in the planning process and to know what's effective for them, what is not, to bring caregivers in and say, look, what's clear, what's messy to you still? So that idea of a feedback loop, I think that it's just a missed opportunity often as educators for students to offer us feedback - it's, it's humbling at times, but I think as educators, where the position of the adults being the holders of knowledge has really that that's an older vision of education, and that's not where we're going. The grownups really need to be facilitators in the work and really be tailoring the instructional experiences based on what their students have in place, um, and with evidence. So that idea of a feedback loop, Heidi, do you mind speaking a bit more to that? What? What does that even mean? 

[00:40:20] Heidi: Um, first of all, I think you, you did a really, um, smart and incisive description of why it's important and the phrase loop suggested somewhat cyclical. Um, I would, I would only add, if I might, that, um feedback is everything. That's how we learn. That's it. That's it. If a kid doesn't know how to kick the ball better, and no one's giving them any thoughts about how to step into the kick, they're not going to get better. And I think for me, this spills a little bit into my work – my - a lot of my career work has been in curriculum mapping and still is. And to me, this is sort of the next iteration. That the idea here is, it's not all either - it certainly is the student giving feedback to the teacher, but it's also the vertical journey the student's on. The student is on a journey having stories every year along the way, and when there's a gap, you can call it gap analysis, either informal type of assessing, or more informal or observational, or students speaking up.

[00:41:35] Heidi: This is boring. I need something more. You need a place to be able to go and make adjustments coherently. So, for me, it's the sort of scale of the loop. Like, sometimes it'll be the intimate, the relationship between the teacher and the student, and the student provides feedback. But, this is, this is mapping stuff, too. We're looking at storyboarding. And we're looking at storyboards over time, just like we're looking at the curriculum over time. And my experience so far on this, because this is relatively new, what we're doing, is that it's already making mapping so much better. Because now it's like you said, Allison, the woman who shook her head about, and I do remember that story now was about 3 years ago. And you told me, like, 6 in the morning. So sorry if I forgot to remember that. But somehow now the teachers 5, 6, 7, 8 in science. Very quickly, as opposed to pouring over 100 review processes. This actually expedites and streamlines the review loop. So I'm so glad you asked that question. 

[00:42:54] Olivia: Heidi, you're just making me think of something else as well. There is something I've experienced. It's been fascinating because I support school districts from pre-kindergarten through 12th grade. And especially when I started working more with middle and high school, it was always fascinating when I would ask a teacher, how long do you think the students will be needing to write for in this given period? And they would say, I don't think they can write more than 10 minutes, and I'd sit gobsmacked, wanting to cry a bit, knowing that I was just in a second-grade class the day before, and the students were writing voluminously for 35 minutes. And I started to think, wow, we really need to get middle and high school teachers down into the elementary classrooms to see that level of stamina and level of engagement.

[00:43:45] Olivia: There was also a huge disconnect between content and what was being taught. The horrific five-paragraph essay that just gets hammered into children year after year after year, uh, in the same topics being taught over and over and over. So I think that that idea of storyboarding pre-K through 12th grade, allowing educators and administrators, as you said, Allison, to have that vision for where education is going in a school district, that is groundbreaking work. So it's just so exciting. 

[00:44:22] Allison: I'm also thinking about and Heidi, um, chime in on this, uh, example as well. Um, Alivia is, um, a powerful world language educator in world, world of learning. And she actually heard Heidi speak in Pennsylvania. I believe it was like a year and a half ago. Um, and she was so inspired. She drafted her very first curriculum storyboard. And since then, we've become, um, good colleagues and friends, um, Heidi, uh, myself and Alivia. And she started to see, like, I showed her an example of a scope and sequence. Instead of it just being one curriculum storyboard like Spanish 1, we started to imagine you know, what if you could visualize Spanish 1, 2, 3, and 4 and so immediately she's like, I'm on it, you know, true to form, like, I think it was like the next day or two, she turned around again, something that was so extraordinary, and I believe that it's, um, in the book as well of really starting to show so what is the year-long scope and sequence look like? And then. How can I actually clarify Spanish 1, Spanish 2, Spanish 3, Spanish 4? So you can do it that way, or you could do it the other way around. So I've worked in a school in Connecticut, a middle school, where we drafted a vision for grades 6, 7, and 8, and then we turned around and drafted the detail orientation at each grade level and this way it starts to continue to clarify not only honoring where people are but also starting to say it is something that we are attuned to so that students do not feel like they're going on autopilot. Just because the grade level changes doesn't mean that anything meaningfully else changes.

[00:46:22] Allison: So again, I think that's sort of speaking, Olivia, to what, what you're describing right now of that, that the, the, the, the discouragement that comes from writing yet another five paragraph essay, working on another memoir or personal narrative and really moving into a space where it's designed to be, be fresh because teachers are very cued into what one another is doing, because they are not only seeing curriculum storyboards, but they're also interacting and impacting the storyboards at one grade level to another. 

[00:46:59] Heidi: Let me just finish this one thing, because I think this is an important point that was beautifully said. There's people listening to this right now, viewing it, um, that have been curriculum mapping for many, many years.

[00:47:13] Heidi: That's the opposite. No, we've been decades where people have thought platforms that have K through 12. The purpose of that was gap analysis. The purpose of that was so what repetition. So, as somebody who's been in that work for all my career, a lot of times what I realize is people weren't really using them because they were as inaccessible as, as all curriculum, almost all curriculum, uh, templates have been. I will own being part of that problem. I look back on it, I don't know what was I doing? We should have been spending more time on directing it to students. This has been a set of serial epiphanies. And as Allison said, it came naturally. It was almost organic. So the point here is, yeah, as you said before, Allison, it will be for the students and the parents. But this really is a godsend to teachers. So many teachers just get excited and that's one thing we need right now. It's been a tough bunch of years to see the energy returns, it's great. So thank you. 

[00:48:25] Olivia: Yes. And I would say both of you I usually ask us what a call to action is moving forward. I'm going to pause there because really the call to action you've named so beautifully. The call to action is to start streamlining, um, and you give us the beautiful roadmap to do that work with your book that you co-wrote together. Thank you so much for that. Is there anything else you'd want us to think about as a call to action moving forward before I let you go? 

[00:48:58] Allison: Yeah, I mean, I think one of the things that continues to strike me and make my heart happy when I'm working with any school that is venturing to this territory is that level of playfulness that you see. I mean, usually curriculum writing, because again, I've been part of the problem too, as Heidi was clarifying, but usually like, I make a joke, like I'm sponsored by some type of pain reliever or, you know, snack treat or what have you, because you're rolling up your sleeves and you're slogging through the work, do you know what I mean? Again, that's still, it's still, it's a cognitive heavy lift still. I, I won't, I won't lie. But at the same time, you're doing it with a level of just, um, it's, it's, it's not, it's not, it's joy, but it's also something that it, again, playful is probably the only word that I can describe it so that it's, it has a lighthearted touch to it.

[00:50:02] Allison: And so the notion of being lighthearted, being somebody that feels like the energy has shifted in the room. And once you see that shift, this is not your classical curriculums, curriculum writing book. This is how do you design something that you're proud of actually handing out to families? You're proud of actually using with students. So that to me is, is, is the magic and the call to action. If it's not joyful, you need to step back and recalibrate because that joy should show up pretty darn quickly.

[00:50:45] Heidi: Yeah.  Now do you can see why I like writing with her? 

[00:50:48] Olivia: Yes.Yes! Well, this has been a gift to have an a conversation with both of you. I live and have breathed your work for my entire career as an educator. And it's just such a privilege to have you as guests on the podcast and to ask you questions about your book and your writing. Um, you've written voluminously, uh, many other books that I am happy to list in the show notes as well. You have beautiful websites. I will make sure to list, uh, just thank you for your important work and for continuing to inspire us and to think outside of the box and streamline and revisit, revise, it's just inspiring in every way. So thank you so much, Heidi and Allison, you're a gift to this world. 

[00:51:31] Heidi: Olivia. Thanks for your generous words, um, this opportunity.

[00:51:35] Olivia: Thank you. 

[00:51:36] Allison: Appreciate it so much. Thank you. 

[00:50:48] Olivia: Take Care. Schoolutions is a podcast created, produced, and edited by me, Olivia Wahl. Special thanks to my guests, Allison Zmuda and Dr. Heidi Hayes Jacobs. Also, a big thank you to my older son, Benjamin, who created the music that's playing in the background. I would love for you to share the podcast far and wide. Leave a review, subscribe on YouTube, and follow us on TikTok, Twitter, Instagram, Threads, and Facebook @schoolutionspodcast. If you'd like to become a Schoolutions sponsor or share episode ideas, leave me a SpeakPipe voice memo at my website, www.oliviawahl.com/podcast, or connect via email at @schoolutionspodcast@gmail.com. Please keep listening. Let's continue finding inspiration together.