S3 E21: Securely Attached with the Creator of Attachment Nerd, Eli Harwood, MA, LPC

Renowned therapist and attachment theory expert Eli Harwood (a.k.a. "The Attachment Nerd") shares her journey and insights with listeners. Eli offers advice about navigating tantrums, allowing space for teenagers to practice making mistakes and condoning vs. accepting behaviors. Listeners will leave wanting to become members of Eli's Nerd Herd and empowered by understanding their attachment patterns thanks to Eli's recently released guided journal, Securely Attached.

Episode Mentions:

• Dr. Karyn Purvis 
• The Verdict Is In - The Case for Attachment Theory by Dr. Dan Siegel 1/30/2020
• Affect Regulation, Mentalization, and the Development of Self by Peter Fonagy, Gyorgy Gergely, Elliot Jurist, and Mary Target 4/17/2005
• Some of Eli's Reels That Will Rock Your World:
  • What can we learn from our dogs when it comes to the power of greeting the people we love?
  • What do you mean by teenagers are practicing grownups?
  • What must we remember when a child is in the thick of a tantrum?
  • What is the difference between accepting vs. condoning a behavior?
• Brené  Brown

Connect and Learn with Eli:

• at her website 
• on Twitter 
• on Instagram
• on Threads
• on Facebook
• on LinkedIn
• on TikTok
• on YouTube

#eliharwood #attachment #securelyattached #attachmentnerd #nerdherd #parenting #loveon #attachmenttheory #studentsupport #teachersupport #parentingsupport #parentinghacks #parentsfollowparents

When teachers, coaches, administrators, and families grow together, schools change. Students get engaged, get support, and get the chance to thrive. 

Transcript

Copy Transcript Copied

Schoolutions – S3 E21: Securely Attached with the Creator of Attachment Nerd, Eli Harwood, MA, LPC

[00:00:00] Olivia: Welcome to Schoolutions, where listening will leave you inspired by solutions to issues you or others you know may be struggling with in the public education system today. I am Olivia Wahl, and I am so excited to welcome my guest today, Eli Harwood, known to many as the beloved Attachment Nerd. Let me tell you a little bit about Eli.

[00:00:26] Olivia: Eli Harwood is a licensed therapist, author, and educator with more than 17 years of experience helping people process relational traumas and develop secure attachment relationships with children and partners. Eli has three children, one husband, a cat, and an extraordinary number of plants. Our conversation will center around Eli's recently published guided journal.

[00:00:55] Olivia: I have it right here, well-loved, well-post-ited, Securely Attached. I am thrilled to welcome you as a guest today, Eli. It is such an honor to have you. 

[00:01:06] Eli: Thank you. I’m so glad to be here. 

[00:01:10] Olivia: So I start off every episode with inspiration right out of the gate, and I love to ask guests who an inspiring educator is from their lives. Would you mind sharing with us? 

[00:01:21] Eli: Yeah. Well, for me, the person that always kind of comes right to forefront is Dr. Karyn Purvis. She was a developmental psychologist and engineered research specifically around children who have, um, severe early attachment traumas like relinquishments from birth families, institutional experiences, stuff like that. Um, but she was just this like presence and I got to learn in person with her probably about ten years ago now, 12 years ago, maybe longer. Um, but she just, her work, she was her work. Um, it says she's teaching about presence and co-regulation, and, and engaging trauma and the way she's teaching is the metaphor for the things she's teaching, right?

[00:02:07] Eli: She's engaging everyone in the room in the same way she's teaching other people to engage. And I don't know, I just, I don't know if you feel this as, as a woman, but I think the way that patriarchy often affects women is that it keeps us from fully developing from being able to grow into our full selves.

[00:02:25] Eli: And then, and it robs us of elders, of really having women who are into their sense of stability later on in their life. Um, and so for me, she was just this like elder, I just, I want to be like her. I adored her. Um, and at the end of our training, I, I don't remember what I was saying to her. I said something to her and she said to me, I feel like we're going to be hearing a lot more from you. And I mean, like I'm feeling emotional as I said that, like, I think, I feel like she's behind me in my work and a big part of why I've had the courage to try and be an educator myself. 

[00:03:05] Olivia: Yeah. Well, you've got to know, and I shared this with you before we started; you as a human being have had such an impact on me in my life as an educator, as a mom, as a spouse, as a friend. And I watch your reels and I'm sure there are hundreds of thousands, millions of people that feel connected to you. And it must be surreal. And to have this moment in time, I'm going to soak every second of it up. Um, but the idea of attachment; it really is the foundation of relationships. And I feel like as a teacher, as an instructional coach in the school system, if we do not start every moment with a child that we're working with, based on that relationship, that tending to their soul, nothing else matters.

[00:04:02] Olivia: Nothing else matters. Um, so, you know, our conversation today is focusing on your book, Securely Attached, and I think it's important to just start off, um, the forward rocks. It's just a great start. Um, thanks to Jessica or we'll say Dr. Jessica Stern. And she is amazing. And, um, I just, I think it's important that listeners understand, um, really why attachment matters.

[00:04:27] Olivia: And so the quote I want to read, here we go, evidence reveals that “What evidence reveals is that forming close relationships is not simply a nice extracurricular. It's a core part of what makes us human. More bluntly, when we're deprived of close relationships, our brains and bodies simply don't function.”

[00:04:51] Olivia: So, you know, how can we, we have beautiful human beings, um, a bit younger than the grownups in school buildings that are coming in. And if they don't have secure relationships at home, often the educators or the people in the building are the only attachment they have sometimes. So that's critical.

[00:05:13] Olivia: And then here we go. I always name an issue. And the issue I'm seeing is that if attachment shapes who we are in human development, why do we not all know about it then? Why are we not all well-versed? Well, here we go. Jessica goes on, “There's some limitations. Attachment theory is notoriously hard to understand. It's simple and elegant insights are often hidden behind long, painfully dry academic texts, jargons, and paywalls.”

[00:05:46] Olivia: And you are the solution, Eli. Your book is, your work is, your reel's; just you, you, you. And here's why, “This book takes decades of high-quality, complex academic research and boils it down to its core wisdom in a way that's easy to understand, actionable, funny, and simply delightful.”

[00:06:12] Olivia: Just like you. 

[00:06:12] Eli: Thank you.

[00:06:14] Olivia: Just like you. So, um, I have loved pouring through the pages. I'm not quite done with my journey. 

[00:06:21] Eli: I mean, it's a lot of work. It's a lot.

[00:06:25] Olivia: It's a lot work. It’s a lot of work. It is. And so I've just been, you know, revisiting, revisiting. I want listeners to understand, you know, I, I alluded to you being known as The Attachment Nerd. What are 2-3 aspects of your journey that stand out, that got you to that point? 

[00:06:42] Eli: Well, I would say the first most important, um, in any endeavor anyone is doing anywhere is always the personal aspect. And for me, you know, that's being born into a family with a lot of unresolved generational trauma. Um, and being luckily born to a mother who made a decision when I was nine years old to check herself into a psychiatric hospital and to begin the journey of acknowledging depression, acknowledging PTSD, acknowledging sexual abuse trauma; beginning to process the, the long-term inheritance in my family of insecurity, um, and of relational insecurity. Um, you know, she was raised in a home where you were seen and not heard, you know, you're job was to comply. Um, if you were, you know, emotional, you were overreacting always-period.

[00:07:39] Eli: Um, you know, there wasn't the freedom to run into somebody's arms and experience safe haven and support, um, and there wasn't also the secure base to go out into the world and explore freely. Everything that she did or didn't do was criticized, right? Unless it was exactly in order, um, of what the structure of the system wanted from her. And so my personal healing journey was, um, a big piece of how I stumbled into the attachment research. Um, I was in therapy, I was trying to understand why is it that this feels so hard and we were a middle-class family, you know, so we didn't have the added barriers for security in terms of finances. We didn't have the added barriers of being folks of color or living under an oppressive government state.

[00:08:36] Eli: We had a lot of privilege and yet I could feel within my body, like something's off. It doesn't feel good. It doesn't feel right. And I noticed specifically that it was always most activated in close relationships for me. So best friendships, romantic relationships, this kind of ilk, this feeling inside of me of like something's wrong, something's wrong, something's wrong.

[00:08:59] Eli: And so in my therapy journey, I discovered attachment and it was like it all, the light bulbs all went on. Oh, yeah, that's what this is. And oh, I do fit into this particular pattern. And oh, my dad fits into this one. My mom fits into this one. And like, I can see this in my grandparents. I know some of these stories. I can put puzzle pieces together. So there was this personal element, which then led me to my career in counseling. Um, you know, there's only two reasons that people become therapists or psychologists. And the first is to try and heal themselves. And the second is, um, to have power. So, so think, think, um, be thoughtful about what therapist you choose. What, what does this person is looking for to, to, to join in the process of trying to heal and learn and be human or maybe to be the expert over, over versus with? Are they trying to overpower me or empower me? Um, so anyway, so there's a personal journey. 

[00:09:59] Olivia: Oh, that's good. 

[00:10:02] Eli: And then, um, yeah, in graduate school, um, I started my graduate school in 2005 and at that point in time, no one was talking about attachment at all, um, except for one of my professors. And once I started digging in, I remember saying to everyone, like, this is it. This is the thing. Like, literally, this is the foundational thing. This drives everything else. Um, and people kind of been like, oh, yeah. You know, okay, sure, but there's also this and there's this and I thought, well, yeah, of course, but like, literally, like, this is square one. And so I started reading everything I could find at the time. Dan Siegel had started writing little pieces about attachment. You know, there was like little. Um, but I read, you know, the big bulky books to Affect
Regulation, Mentalization, and the Development of Self, right? Like, and I, my brain hurt, you know, I would sit there like going, I think I know what this means, but I'm also not positive I know what this means.

[00:10:52] Eli: Um, and so from there, I've been. applying all that in my clinical work for the past 17 years as a therapist, trying to help people heal that early pattern of relating and translate it into effective relating in the present moment in order to deepen one's sense of security in the world. Um, and then after 17 years of doing that, I got a little brokenhearted in a way. I felt I felt a heartbreak of recognizing how many people were continuing these patterns without access to the information. I found it hard to refer people to resources. There are some, um, but there weren't any resources that I felt like were super practical.

[00:11:36] Eli: And so anyway, I, I kind of got my courage up and I, I was like, okay, I'm going to start sharing these messages. And then I wrote a book and actually wrote a second book that's coming out in the fall. That one has a parenting focus. This book is, this book is meant to help you process your beginnings and help you heal some of the pieces that are still in your nervous system is how I would describe it.

[00:12:02] Eli: And then learn how to relate securely to other adults in your world so that you can feel secure, which is the first step to offering your children security, because even if you do all the parenting tricks and tics, but you haven't actually processed your own beginnings, your kids will feel that from you. Um, yeah, so I'm, I kind of say to everyone who's waiting for my parenting book like this one first. You got to do this one first. 

[00:12:27] Olivia: Yes. Yes. And, and I couldn't agree more. Um, something that I continue to think about as I'm reading, there are so many pieces of this though, that are that idea of parallel, the parallel practice that you absolutely can speak to with your family, um, your spouse, your partner, your friends, And one of my favorite aspects of your journey is your presence on social because those reels that you put out into the world, um, they're so impactful. It's a dose of goodness. It's just what I need in the moment. Um, and I joked with you, holy reels, Batman, because they're amazing. They're like a superpower.

[00:13:14] Olivia: And I feel that there's this essence of just when I need a dose of guidance, you come onto my feed and it's you. And so I'm fascinated; some of the reels, I have ten that are my absolute favorites that I shared with you. What of those reels are your top five that you think would really help caregivers, teachers, anyone that works with children to, to help them?

[00:13:43] Eli: Oh my gosh, I love that you trust in my memory skills this much, but we're going to try. So, um, I mean, the one I think is the most important, probably the work I'm the most proud of is a reel where I talk about how our dogs greet us. Um, uh, that when our children enter the room, whether that's in the morning or when they come home from school, but when we've been separated and we return, um, that there is this ritual of lighting up of showing that enthusiastic delight we feel in their presence um, that is medicine for all of us, actually. It's medicine for us. It's medicine for them. It's why our dogs do it. It's why we call them our best friends. Right? Like, um I think as a teacher, like you never know what a child is experiencing at home, and, you know, I've done a lot of work on abuse and some of the most charming people in the world are deeply abusive to their children.

[00:14:40] Eli: You don't, you don't know. And so I think, you know, when a kid walks up in the room, let them see on your face, you are glad they're there. Right? Like, yeah, it's so good to see you. Good morning. Oh, I love that you tied your shoes that way. That's a, that's a fantastic way to have tied your shoes. Like, um, you know, if they walk in the room forlorn, their face is down, you know, you don't want to jump for jellyfish. That would be misattuned. But you come in and you go, hey, kid, I'm glad you're here. Right? You enter their realm. You connect. You make that, that human um, moment before you do anything else, right?

[00:15:21] Eli: Like, I think, yeah, I could go on and on and on and on obviously, I can lecture for hours about the power of teachers. And I will tell you, as a therapist, um, we talk about protective factors and risk factors. So many children are born into families who are risk factors for them. And I cannot tell you how many incredibly kind-hearted, tender-hearted, thoughtful, accomplished people I have worked with who had epically terrible childhoods and one incredibly invested teacher.

[00:15:53] Eli: That changed their lives. I mean, I got emotional just saying that. Like, there is so much power. Because as a teacher, you are, in a way, a metaphoric parent. You're the classroom parent. And so you're offering that space. And you know, when my kids right now, they're off at school, their, their attachment figures are, are at school. They're teachers. And I'm so thankful for them. Um, so yeah, so lighting up like a dog. 

[00:16:20] Olivia: All right, I'm throwing one at you. So here's another where I want to go a bit older realm. There's, there's something you say that you say that teenagers are-wait-I want to make sure I'm saying it correctly. Teenagers are practicing grownups. What do you mean by that? Cause I have a teenager in my house and it's, it's interesting. 

[00:16:38] Eli: So we live in a culture that's so focused on control that I see a lot of people struggle in the teen years because there is this deepening dread that we're losing control over our children. Um, and so there becomes a power battle between parent and adolescent. And my invitation is to recognize that when your children claim their own authority, and they're going to do the thing you told them not to do, and they're going to independently, autonomously decide something that you don't agree with, it's not truly about you at all. It's that, they are, they are trying to practice being in charge of themselves. Because they are so close to that, and they know that. And we know that, and we might be feeling scared because we, are you used to trying to influence or determine that their world, but that they need us to give them enough space to practice and also to mess up because I don't know about y'all, I’m still messing up every day.

[00:17:47] Eli: Yeah, I have; it is an incredible life lesson to learn how to mess up and not completely shut down on ourselves. Right, or defend ourselves. We have to learn how to face our mistakes with dignity and grace. Um, and so when our children are in their teens, we want to make sure they have that space.

[00:18:10] Olivia: So true. It's so true. I was actually speaking to my husband this morning. I was having a conversation with my older son and he was just talking and talking and talking about something going on at school. And he paused because I think he saw I was ready to just try to fix the world for him. And he goes, I'm just venting. I'm not asking for advice. And I was like, oh, wow. And I said to my husband, it was so evolved that he was able to name, uh, this is a 10-minute vent and then I need to go get back to it. I just needed to say what is on my mind so I can unload that. I was like, that's amazing. I was so honored that I was the one that he came to, but that was brilliant. Um, okay, wait, let's flip the switch. Child is tantruming; what, what, if that is, is that a word, is that a word tantruming; within a tantrum? What is your best tantrum tip?

[00:19:05] Eli: Okay. So this is another video. It was the three things to do to help your children calm down faster. So one, get down on their level. So, as human beings, we sometimes forget that we are also animals and animals are absolutely equipped with material to process danger and a process threat. And when a child is deeply upset, they are mostly in their animal brain. They're no longer in their processing human brain. And so, we want to make our bodies smaller as a easy avenue to helping them not feel as overwhelmed. And so if you can imagine, you're crying and you're upset and someone four times as large as you is hovering over you with a stern face.

[00:19:52] Eli: Right? That's, that's not going to help you feel more calm, right? And so we want to, we want to, we want to communicate a withness in that moment, right? Which is different than letting them feel in control or trying to be in control ourselves. It's I'm going to be with you. So I'm going to make my body small. I'm going to make my voice so tender. Right? And, and, and that really is about expressing vocal empathy. I hear you. I hear you, my love. I know. And, and side note, sometimes this will actually make your children more mad if they are upset about a boundary you're setting. Um, so if they're, if they're not upset about you, that'll work like magic.

[00:20:32] Eli: So if they're upset about something else and you go, this is so hard, they'll go, oh, and they'll melt. But if, if you've said, no, you can't have another popsicle before dinner, then you say, I know this is hard. They might actually increase their rage at you. That doesn't mean it's not working. They're learning how to tolerate the boundary and they're, they're smart enough to know that you are offering empathy and not the popsicle. But ride the wave, stay there. It's still working. It's still what they need. And once their neuro-cortical firing starts coming down, then you will have stayed available to them and then you can repair. So, I got you. I'm so sorry. I hear you just gentle words. And then you want your face to express emotion.

[00:21:11] Eli: So in the, in the attachment science, we call this mirroring. And it's basically, you know, if you imagine that you're really upset and you're crying and someone blank faces you, it's uncomfortable. You can't tell if they've received what you felt and understood it. So you're, you're, you're a little bridge in the middle of your eyes gets crinkly, and you look in and you're, you're, you're letting their emotional state enter your body just enough that you can express it. I always say like take a sip, not a chug, right? So when someone is in front of you and they're deeply upset, you want to say you want to take a little sip of what they're feeling so that they can tell you can feel what they're feeling, but they can also tell you're not overwhelmed by what they're feeling.

[00:21:52] Olivia: Ah, that's beautiful. Take a sip, not a chug. It's so true. And then you're not me too-ing. You're there in the moment with them, but it's not, you're not like getting ready to share an experience that you've had too. Uh, that's beautiful. Um, a couple more just because they're, they're huge. Um, one that I think really gets to me is the difference. Let's stay in that realm of accepting versus condoning because you said you're not condoning. What's the difference between the two?

[00:22:19] Eli: So. I think again, this comes back to this control mentality we all need to work on purging out of our brains. Um, children misbehave out of dysregulation out of lack of ideas out of knowing other things that they could do, right, out of exhaustion, out of trauma, right? There's-so we're looking at a child's behavior, and we're recognizing that underlying that behavior are deficits, and those deficits might be physical, right? They might be emotional. They might be, um, relational. We don't know what the deficits are, but there's some form of a deficit. Havoc sensory; that’s another important one as a teacher.

[00:22:56] Eli: Um, and when a child acts out, we can sometimes get into a mindset where we feel like we have to like, um, oh, what's the word? Help me find a good word. Going against the behavior. I am this behavior. 

[00:23:12] Olivia: Well, to take a stand…

[00:23:14] Eli: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm taking a stand. I'm going to take a stand against this behavior. And I think this can be especially triggering if we've been a part of a community that's experienced violence or abuse, or we’ve personally experienced violence or abuse, because when children are dysregulated they might act out in a way that we interpret as violent. But it's actually more accurately, probably aggression and aggression and violence aren't the same thing. Um, violence is a mindset that drives a behavior. Aggression is an instinct, um, in dysregulation. And so aggression is far more about self-defense than it is about dominance. Um, and so young children are never violent. Even if they've grown up in violent homes, they've learned violence from caregivers. They don't understand what's happening. And so when we, when we accept a child's behavior, it means we understand it's here. It's in the room. I cannot control it. I cannot do anything about it, but I can also accept there is a child in the throes of this behavior and, and that there is dignity somewhere within the situation that I don't understand. And I may never understand as a teacher, you don't always get to know, right? But I do know this is a child and all children have dignity and all children deserve support in dysregulation.

[00:24:27] Eli: And so condoning is when someone goes, well, boys will be boys. That's condoning. That is, I am going to, I am, I am truly not going to intervene with this behavior. Right? 

[00:24:43] Olivia: Shrugging it off almost. 

[00:24:44] Eli: So, um, you know, the, we want to empower children. So in a moment when a child is acting negatively, we want to say, hey, we don't hit the hitting is dangerous or hitting hurts. I'm going to have to; we're going to have to separate your body to the other side of the room. We're going to have to put you over here because I want to keep you safe, and I want to keep your classmates safe or we're going to need you to do whatever. Um, but just because you don't come down hard and shaming and reactive doesn't mean you've, doesn't mean you've condoned the behavior, you've accepted it. And then we want to come back around to a place of dignity. What's going on? You know, how can I help? And, you know, with nonverbal kids, it's getting that team involved. What's going on? How do we help them? How do we, you know, oh, shoot, they're wearing a wool sweater. Well, we know they have sensory stimulation issues. Let's make sure that, you know, we've got a change of clothes if that happens again. Let's make sure we refer to the parents again about this particular type of clothing and how we see it affecting that this day and, you know. So we're not, we're not accepting a behavior if we don't come down hard on it, we can still be teachers. We can still be empathetic. We're not excusing a behavior if we try to understand what's underneath it. 

[00:25:58] Olivia: It’s, it's so beautiful. Yeah, well, and so it's this, it's reminding me of something in my younger son. He gets in the car uh, I think it was actually just Friday and he said, you're not going to believe what happened in my class today; one of his classes. And I said, what happened? And he said, um, there was a student that was tapping a pen. Over and over and over. And the teacher asked like five times for him to stop tapping his pen. And Henry said it was frustrating, whatever. And he said that someone was called to come into the room because the student wouldn't stop.

[00:26:32] Olivia: And he goes, and I'll tell you, mom, it's the guy you want to come if you're in trouble, this is the person that you want to come to have a talk with you. And I said, why? And he goes, he's so calm and he said, and he's not angry. He, and he said he came in and even though we all knew that the student wasn't making a good choice, the, this person started off with, buddy, I just need to talk to you. We need to just go out. Um, you're not in trouble. And my son said, you know, I just, it was, it was handled in a way that no one got, like elevated or angry. And that's what he, he loved. To hear his perspective, like, if you're in trouble, this is the guy you want to talk to you and this is why.

[00:27:21] Olivia: And it was all around his calming approach. And so, you know what you're saying if, if adults take this in. And understand even when our children are pushing our butts and making us so frustrated, to stay calm in the moment; that is everything. It's everything, to stay regulated. So I just, it's so, so big. Um, let's, let's get to the book. Let's get to it. I'm so excited. So Securely Attachedagain. I have it here. And, um, I'd love for caregivers for educators to have a better understanding of what attachment really looks and feels like or strategies across the developmental stages. Could you take us through?

[00:28:11] Eli: What the strategies look like across developmental stages?

[00:28:15] Eli: Yes. So, um, we have four categories and these categories are patterns within specific relationships. So everyone I know, you can have a different pattern with a different relationship. So you might have had one pattern with, uh, you know, your mom, one pattern with your dad, one pattern with this foster parent, one pattern with that adoptive parent.

[00:28:33] Eli: Like there, there is no, um, you become the pattern. That's not how it works. Um, but basically in a relationship as a child with a caregiver who is warm, attuned, and responsive, okay, those are, those are the three biggies. Warm, attuned, and responsive. Um, you will develop a secure pattern and that secure pattern looks like this.

[00:28:55] Eli: When I feel tender and distressed, I reach for my caregiver and I receive the soothing that they offer me. That's it. It's very simple. In a caregiver who is consistently ineffective, so consistently ineffective could mean that you're, that the caregiver is anxious all the time. They're intrusive. It could mean that they are dismissive all the time. So you're fine. It's fine. Checked out, blank face, that type of thing. But if a caregiver is ineffective as their primary pattern, then a child develops an avoidant coping strategy and that avoidance strategy is when I am distressed or I'm afraid I go inward. So I avoid trying to feel I avoid expressing what I feel and I try to distract myself and everybody else from the emotions.

[00:29:50] Olivia: Okay, that’s fascinating. 

[00:29:51] Eli: And this is by 12 months of age, by the way. I know. Um, so then the third category is if you have a caregiver who is intermittently effective. So sometimes they're able to be there for you, but they are not able to be there for you enough for you to trust in it. And so this is like caregivers who have mental illness that goes in and out depression. This was my; my mother had a lot of depression and PTSD. So I had this particular pattern with her. Um, caregivers in abusive relationships, maybe they're able to be responsive when the perpetrator isn't there, but then they aren't when the perpetrator is there or…so inconsistent in their ability to be effective.

[00:30:32] Eli: Then, then a child develops a pattern that we would consider resistant, which means this. They become hypervigilant about everybody else's feelings, so they're always watching, they're scanning, they're on high alert. Um, so they do reach for people, they want people close, they want to know how they're feeling, they want that, but then they resist or they protest any offers of support because they don't believe that, that, that will work. So they, they're relying on their clinginess in order to have closeness with people. Okay. And then the last category is considered disorganized. And this is for our little people who have abusive caregivers or deeply fragmented caregivers, meaning, uh, their caregivers have a meth addiction or severe untreated schizophrenia.

[00:31:20] Eli: But the caregiver is a source of terror for the child, a source of fear. They're frightening in some way. So the other three patterns we're looking at, like, how does the child cope based on the level of effectiveness of the parent? But this pattern is not only is the parent not effective, the parent is also, um, scary. Okay. 

[00:31:40] Olivia: Yeah. And a danger almost. 

[00:31:41] Eli: They can be a danger physically, sexually, emotionally. Um, yeah, practically, you know, all those things. Okay. So this is what it looks like in childhood. Now, what's amazing about attachment is that it can change and this is why I was talking about teachers. So you could have a child who has any of those insecure categories, but then they enter into a relationship with the teacher who gives them a different relational experience, they internalize that teacher, you know, and, and it shifts the way they relate. Maybe they choose to relate to their friends differently now, and they find other people and they, you know, have a healing trajectory through that route. Um, but for most people, you sort of stay in your trajectory. So unless there's some form of intervention like therapy or, or a healing or other healing relationship. Um, so in adulthood, a secure person creates close relationships and when they are tender or in need, they reach for their people and they receive the care that their people get them. Okay, so it's similar to childhood only it's reaching for other adults. Um, they don't wait for other people to notice their needs.

[00:32:44] Eli: They just voice them automatically. Which I think is a really interesting thing. Um, and they don't feel like it cheapens it, right? So it's like, if I have to ask you for a hug, that doesn't mean that you didn't mean the hug. It's just like, thank you for responding to me. The avoidant person tends to develop a dismissive kind of way of coping, which means that they dismiss their own feelings and feelings of others, they often actually struggle to even know what they feel or remember feeling moments. Um, there's the, the thing to remember is that this person isn't avoiding attachment. They're avoiding strong emotions in order to remain in attachment. And so that gets confusing because I think sometimes when people are in relationships with someone with an avoidant pattern, it feels like, well, they don't want to be close to me because they don't want to talk about this stuff. No, it's that they only know how to be close by avoiding these things. 

[00:33:37] Olivia: It's so interesting. 

[00:33:39] Eli: And then the resistant pattern in adulthood, we call it preoccupied. Um, in this book, I also use the term ambivalent. I know it's just so obnoxious. The research is like filled with different labels that all mean the same thing, but, um, the preoccupied adult, um, is kind of always waiting for someone to leave or to fail or to…you know, so they're, they're, they're really worried they aren't enough. Like you're going to want someone else cause I'm not pretty enough, smart enough, funny enough, make enough money. Um, so there's a lot of hypervigilance in those relationships. Um, I call it scanning. Like there was kind of like a scanning of the relationship and of other, it's like, well, was that something bad or was that something, um, there's a need for a lot of reassurance. 

[00:34:22] Olivia: It's exhausting. 

[00:34:23] Eli: Yes, it is exhausting. Um, and then the last one disorganized. I mean, I always say that for someone with a disorganized attachment experience, close relationships are their um, Vietnam, their Afghanistan, their war zone. I could say they're Gaza. Like their, their, their terror is closeness because closeness, it feels like the beginning of being harmed. So, so it's really hard. There's a lot of like I don't want to be close to you. How could you leave me? Don't try to say that to me. Why don't you care about me? Kind of this push-pull experience in relationships. That's really confusing. 

[00:35:05] Olivia: That what you just illuminated is so helpful. I think it's helpful for grownups listening. And I think there are glimpses of this in children that we're working with in schools, right? And so that was extraordinarily helpful. Um, and the, the graphics in the book are also just, they're beautiful, but so accessible. A layman like me is, is, you know, I don't have the understanding outside of your support and therapy, but this just made everything so clear and that's what I appreciate. It's, it's just wonderful. I think it'd be really helpful for listeners to understand, you know, have you identify what are the five big emotions and how can we help? You've already spoken to a bit. How can we help children understand when they are feeling those emotions at different times? 

[00:36:04] Eli: Okay, so the five big emotions are sorrow or sadness, which is an emotion designed to help us process the pain of loss. Okay. Anger, um, which is the emotion designed to help us recognize when we are feeling violated. So, in some way, we feel either a form of neglect or a form of intrusiveness relationally um, it's letting us know that. There is fear designed to help keep us safe, to alert us to danger. Um, uh, and just so you know, I've been thinking about this a lot lately. There's a difference between fear and anxiety. Fear is about danger, which danger is present and anxiety is about what happens when we imagine future danger. And so fear is incredibly important and we, we need to allow ourselves to feel fear when we feel it, but anxiety, it actually doesn't offer us any protective experience. 

[00:37:02] Olivia: That's so interesting.

[00:37:04] Eli: And so if, if, if you're feeling anxious, one question to ask yourself is, does, is this, is this fear offering me wisdom that I can use to protect myself, or is this anxiety that is burdening me with an overwhelm that's keeping me from absorbing the safety of this moment? And if it's anxiety, then I need to talk it through with somebody and let somebody in on it and, and allow myself to be soothed by someone else's responses.

[00:37:33] Olivia: Oh my gosh. Okay.

[00:37:34] Eli: Um, we all have anxiety, by the way. No one's like living without anxiety. Um, okay. Fear. Shame; so shame, shame is the emotion that arises when we feel we are unworthy of belonging or unworthy of connection. And um, I believe, and I, I've listened to Brené Brown talk about this. I still think there's no way to kind of fully conclude on this, but I believe that shame originally, um, was an emotion to help us recognize when we were engaging in behaviors that might get us kicked out of our village because human beings survive through social connection, right?

[00:38:10] Eli: And there, we often engage in behaviors that aren't socially acceptable. And we, we need this feeling to sort of help us stop doing that. But shame is also deeply problematic because it can come up as a result of trauma or problematic cultural ideals. Um, and so shame is the, is the emotion that helps drive us towards other people in order to get insight onto how we can best be in community. So if we are feeling shame about something, then the very first thing you need to do is share it with somebody who is warm and safe and trustworthy. So shame and then joy. So joy, joy keeps us fulfilled. Joy moves us towards what is good and lovely. You know, joy is what makes you want to eat another blueberry.

[00:38:55] Eli: You know, that experience of pleasure and fulfillment in life. So when you asked, how do we teach children about emotions? My favorite metaphor is potty training. So when we potty train, we help a child to recognize the presence of sensations in their bodies, so the tingling in their bladder that signals a full bladder. The movements in their bowels that signal it's time to release, you know, our poop, right? So the first piece of potty training is simply helping children recognize the need and the sensation related to it. And then labeling it with language. So that connection between that sensation and I have to pee, okay, helps the, the child process what it is that's happening to them, what they're feeling, and how to understand it.

[00:39:52] Eli: And then we link with that, what do you do? Go to the potty. Action, right? Okay, so we're doing the exact same thing with emotions. Um, and what I would say is for most grown-ups, the first step here is learning to do this for yourself. Do you know what anger feels like in your body? You know, and every body is different to some degree, but there will be similar themes. Um, you know, anger tends to elevate our body temperature. So I, the more angry I'm becoming, the hotter I get. It tends to create constriction in our body. I'll notice my fists are getting a little tighter. Um, I, I tend to notice anger first by through sweating. Um, but so like, what is, what is that sensation look like in your body?

[00:40:33] Eli: And then what, what expression starts to arise on your face? And we're reading our children in our classrooms and our homes by, by recognizing those micro shifts in their facial expressions. Um, so that we can sense, oh, they're starting to feel angry. Oh, they're starting to feel sad. Right. What does sorrow feel like in your body?

[00:40:53] Eli: Where do you first recognize it? Where does fear arise in your body? What does shame, you know, with shame, we tend to want to hide our face and run away, by the way. Um, so, you know, anytime a kid is running away and going under the covers and, you know, or hiding in the corner, you're probably dealing with shame. And shame is a word that we still don't have fully integrated into our lexicon. So sometimes it feels too big to use with kids, but you can use it with kids. Are you feeling ashamed? Are you feeling embarrassed? Did that make you feel like you're not a good kid? Oh, that feeling is so terrible. I know that feeling too.

[00:41:26] Eli: When we feel ashamed, you know what we need to do is take a minute, calm our bodies, get into a safe place, and then we reach out to someone that we know loves us and we say, I'm feeling like I'm a bad kid. Do you think I'm a bad kid? You know, and you help them learn how to articulate the core human piece behind the emotion and co-regulate. So in a perfect world, we want kids to learn how to use relationships to regulate. Um, sometimes they need coping skills. Sometimes relationships are, you know, too complex for them still based on their experience growing up, but in the long, long run, we want children to go, you know what, when I'm sad, I can reach out for someone and ask a hug. When I'm scared, I can say to the adult in the room, I feel afraid, am I in danger?

[00:42:12] Eli: Can you help me? Right? Like that's, that's what we want. And so you're, you're, you are emotion training, the children, helping them notice sensations, helping them label the sensations, and then helping them take action that helps them to get what the underlying needs met and the soothing that they need from those emotional states.

[00:42:32] Olivia: What I'm thinking about is something that my younger son said, and I'm noticing children in schools are using the term shame. It almost is a verb, shaming. And so he was speaking to me again, car ride, car rides are the best, Eli. They're the best. They're not looking at you necessarily, but you hear a lot, right? It's a good, good way to engage. Walks every straight-forward. Um, so he said, I felt really badly for a student in a class today. And I said, what do you mean? And he, he shared that he felt that the student was shamed by an adult. And I said, well, what did you do to, how did you respond? And he shared that he didn't know how to speak up for that child. And so it was a different conversation. And so I think that idea of shaming, even if your own child doesn't feel shame, it's such an important conversation to have around these emotions with your kids and students too.

[00:43:33] Eli: And so many grown-ups shame children as a tool of control. That is not wrong. It happens all the time. You know, what's, what's complex about shame is, you could have said, you can say something to me that is entirely innocuous and not shaming at all, and it could activate shame in me. This happens a lot in conversation about race. You know, folks of color will kind of talk about the experience of oppression in their lives, and it will activate a sense of shame for a lot of white folk because white folk are grown up believing that they, aren't racist. And so then when they start to hear that maybe something they do or think is complicit in a system that's oppressive to other people, it becomes, it activates shame. But that doesn't mean that someone was shaming them. Okay. Now shaming is I'm going to take away your face. I'm defacing you. So, so if you're in a conversation and someone says, you know, well, you wouldn't have any idea what that means cause you don't blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. They might be shaming you, right? But they might also just be saying like, hey, this isn't your space to speak. So it is complex. Um, what we want to teach children to do is to recognize shame and to also know that shaming never tells the truth, you know, like um, and that we can connect to it. I think there's power in saying to a kid, oh, that feeling is so painful. I, I have that too. Sometimes it comes up. We all get it. 

[00:44:58] Olivia: I agree, but I'm also thinking it's intent. And so that's a huge piece of it. Right? So you can feel sometimes someone's intent when they are trying to intentionally shame. So we talk a lot with our boys around intent and impact. And it's, I think, tremendous. I also say it doesn't matter if your intent wasn't to hurt someone. If someone's names that you did, then you acknowledge it because your feelings are irrelevant, your intent is irrelevant in some way. Um, the other thing that you made me think about with feelings that I adore is that feelings are always evolving. And I think so much in classrooms when children are studying fiction and literature; they're often asked at the precipice between second and third grade to identify the difference between character feelings and traits. And then that leads to motivation. And I'm thinking so much around, you know, traits we describe as more steadfast. They don't really change. But feelings do. So if we equip our children with understanding those five big emotions, that also transcends to the characters that they're meeting in their books. So it's just so powerful. It's so cool. So exciting. Um, Yeah. So I just, I'm grateful for you and just this book you've put out there in the world. And you also put yourself out there as a podcast host that I look up to. So what, what are a couple favorite moments that you have from being the host of the Attachment Nerd Cast? 

[00:46:36] Eli: Well, you know, what's funny, I have not done very much of it. It's on my list. I'm in this funny stage of my life where I put my hands in so many honey pots that I like; I'm just a little overwhelmed, but, um, I just started doing it with my long-term business partner, who is one of the most incredible people I know, and, um, also unbelievably well versed in attachment. And for me, I don't know; there's just something hopeful about having discussions around healing. Um, so we're going to be launching those soon, but they're not all up yet because I need to hire somebody. Anyway, um, 

[00:47:13] Olivia: Yes, it's a lot of work. 

[00:46:14] Eli: But yeah, I don't know. I like anytime someone feels seen or heard or understood or empowered to be the kind of person who is seeing, hearing and understanding other people. I, I don't know, it helps my heart. 

[00:47:29] Olivia: It's a good thing. It's a good thing. And I think out of anything that's come from podcasting in general, it's listening, it's having the safety of listening to conversations and stretching yourself to hear other people's perspectives, in the comfort of your car, or if you're vacuuming, however you choose to listen, um, or watch whatever your preference is. So that idea of connection, it's a beautiful metaphor for being securely attached, right? Like you're connecting with people that you may never meet, but you're hearing their story and that may resonate. It's just, it's brilliant. 

[00:48:06] Eli: I think I'm so thankful that I hopped on social media before my kids were adolescents, because I'm getting such an experience of how real internet relationships are and, and that yes, of course, you need your in-person relationships. Everyone needs that. That's a core piece of health. But I think like, like, this is a real connection. Like, you are a real person. I'm a real person. We're having a real connection and we may never meet in person. Who knows? Maybe we will, but like that, it's, it's powerful that we have all of these technology tools to allow us to band together the way that we have on Attachment Nerd on Schoolutions. And I just, it makes me so happy. 

[00:48:47] Olivia: It makes me really happy too. And so, um, I always end with a call to action and, um, I will make sure to put all of your contact details and social links in the show notes. But Eli, you know, you said we have a book to look forward to another book coming out, um, in the fall, what is our call to action to become as securely attached as we possibly can be.

[00:49:10] Eli: Well, so step one, go buy the book and do the work, find a part, find either your partner or a set of friends who will do it at the same time with you. Go through it together with people cause the whole point is being more connected to people. Um, so let yourself process your story, you have an attachment story, you have a journey. Let yourself process it. Um, and after you've done that, I would say, give yourself some time to just feel really proud of yourself and do what you can to take stock of that security and enjoy it. Um, and if you're a parent, the next book is called Raising Securely Attached Kids. So it's more of a manual and it's a bookie book. You know, this one is a workbook. This one, the next one's a bookie book, um, and it will be on Audible. Speaking of that, I couldn't get this work workbook on Audible. I really tried hard, but they won't do workbooks, but the next one will be. Um, so yeah. Thank you for having me, Olivia. So lovely to be with you.

[00:50:07] Olivia: Thank you. This has been a dream of mine for a long, long time and I, your footprint on the world, your impact is so, so tremendous. And you help me on a daily basis with your words. And I just am grateful for you. So thank you so much. 

[00:50:27] Eli: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. It's so good to be with you. 

[00:50:29] Olivia: Yeah. Take Care.

[00:50:27] Eli: You too.

[00:50:29] Olivia: You too. Schoolutions is a podcast created, produced, and edited by me, Olivia Wahl. Special thanks to my guest, Eli Harwood. Also, a big thank you to my older son, Benjamin, who created the music that's playing in the background. I would love for you to share the podcast far and wide. Leave a review, subscribe on YouTube, and follow us on TikTok, Twitter, Instagram, Threads, and Facebook @schoolutionspodcast. If you'd like to become a Schoolutions sponsor or share episode ideas, leave me a SpeakPipe voice memo at my website, www.oliviawahl.com/podcast, or connect via email at @schoolutionspodcast@gmail.com. Please keep listening. Let's continue finding inspiration together.