Dr. Jennifer McCarty Plucker leaned on her 20+ years in education as an English teacher, speech coach, reading specialist, and district administrator while writing her new book, Inspiring Lifelong Readers. Listeners will leave this conversation inspired to try Jen’s tried-and-true, evidence-based strategies.
Episode Mentions:
Links to Jen’s Writing:
Connect and Learn with Jen:
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Dr. Jennifer McCarty Plucker leaned on her 20+ years in education as an English teacher, speech coach, reading specialist, and district administrator while writing her new book, Inspiring Lifelong Readers. Listeners will leave this conversation inspired to try Jen’s tried-and-true, evidence-based strategies.
Episode Mentions:
Links to Jen’s Writing:
Connect and Learn with Jen:
Get solutions from Schoolutions!
#solutionsfromschoolutions #schoolutionsinspires #schoolutionspodcast
[00:00:00] Olivia: Welcome to Schoolutions®, where listening will leave you inspired by solutions to issues you or others you know may be struggling with in the public education system today. I am Olivia Wahl, and I'm excited to welcome my guest today, Dr. Jennifer McCarty Plucker. Let me tell you a little bit about Dr. Plucker. Jen is the Director of Learning and Development and a Literacy Consultant at Mackin Educational Resources in Burnsville, Minnesota. Her current work with teachers is grounded in an inquiry approach that puts students at the driver's seat for learning. Our conversation today will focus on Jen's recently released book. I have it right here. It's beautiful. Inspiring Lifelong Readers: Using Inquiry to Engage
Learners in Grades 6-12. Jen, it is an honor to have you as a guest today on Schoolutions®. Welcome.
[00:00:59] Jennifer: Thank you. I really appreciate being here. I love the work that you're doing. So I'm honored to be a part of this.
[00:01:05] Olivia: Thank you. And right back at you. Um, I start off every episode by asking guests for an inspiring educator in their life. Would you share with listeners? Sure.
[00:01:15] Jennifer: Sure. I couldn't pick just one. So I do have to pick two. There's many, many, many, um, but two that come to mind, uh, when I was a sophomore in high school, I had a social studies teacher who came up to me and told me that I should audition for the speech team. And I was like, number one, how do you even know who I am? I don't say a word in your class. I put my head down, I do my work, I'm super quiet. And two, why would you think that I would want to be on the speech team? I don't talk. His response was, I've seen your writing, and you have something to say. So, say it.
[00:01:57] Jennifer: So I was like, okay, well if this, man thinks there's something there that I don't know about myself. I'm going to go for it. So I tried out for the speech team. I made the team. And then the second teacher is my speech coach, Marsha Nelson. Um, and she really just brought out in me all of these things I didn't know were in me. I wasn't like a state champion speechy in high school. Um, I was the captain. I did leadership. I worked really hard. And then I went on to get a degree in teaching speech and English. And I competed on my college speech team. And then I did go to nationals. It just. You know, took a while. And now I speak for a career.
[00:02:42] Jennifer: So, um, the two of them together and, and just their ability to see in me gifts that I didn't see myself, um, is inspiring. I'm still friends with Marsha and she still inspires me today. She is an educator who believes it is never too late. Uh, she definitely instilled that in me. And, uh, she believes that school is the place where we reach kids, all, each kid. Um, and that we have to find ways to not give up on kids and, um, and, and use the time that we have with young people to help them realize their potential and the excellence within them.
[00:03:32] Olivia: Well, here's the thing, that's exactly what I gleaned from reading your book. It's that idea of, yes, inspiration. And finding and unlocking the potential in each learner. I adore the idea of an inquiry-based approach too. I mean, that to me is the idea of curiosity and that we are not there to fill students as empty vessels. They have so much that we can tap into when it comes to curiosity. So I think it's exciting. Um, I also name an issue that I'm seeing in public education and why I sought you out to be a guest on the podcast.
[00:04:15] Olivia: Um, and I've heard it so many times and it's not with malintent. I'm going to read it directly from the pages of your book. It came from your mouth as a teacher. Um, And I think it will resonate because a lot of high school and middle school teachers feel this way. Um, you had had a parent that reached out to you and you were saying, like, I'm really concerned. Your student is striving and the parent said, well, what are you going to do about it? And you paused and said, “I hadn't even considered what my role was in helping 10th graders comprehend. Didn't they learn that in elementary school? I'm not a reading teacher. I teach literature, rhetoric, writing, public speaking, and interpersonal communication.”
[00:05:01] Olivia: So many middle and high school teachers Did not sign up; are not trained to teach children how to read and it's a mindset. Often it's not teaching children to read, but it's that idea of transferable learning of that comprehension work. It's not teaching books. It's using books as anchor texts to capitalize, right, upon the comprehension work that we can transfer into every part of our lives. So, that struck me so deeply. And then, the other layer of that work is, issue 2, um, “High school students are not graduating high school with literacy skills necessary for college and careers.”
[00:05:45] Olivia: Inquiry is where it's at. Keep curiosity, relevancy at the helm, and the most beautifully articulated solution is right from your book. I turn to page six, and here we go. “As educators, we need to position reading and writing as tools for learning and inquiry. If we want to address these challenges with proficiency. To do that effectively, we also need to understand the demands for students’ attention and use that information to inform planning and instruction.”
[00:06:21] Olivia: Boom, mic drop. that's it! You hit it! And so the book is stunning. The artwork is stunning. So before we get into the nitty gritty, I have to ask you, I want to show the cover again. I mean, this looks like you. Um, and so talk to me. The artwork is stunning. How did this come about?
[00:06:45] Jennifer: So, uh, first of all, writing a book is hard, um, and thankfully, the team at Solution Tree was, they just really held my hand through the whole process, and then they took the, the words and the work that I had put in and made this just gorgeous book better than I ever would have imagined. Uh, but when the cover art came to me, I was given choices and all of them, I'm like, oh my gosh, that's a cover of a book. I would see that in a store. Um, but for those of you watching online, the cover that first came to me is this one of this gorgeous um, child reading a book and, and this child really, to me, looked like my sister. My sister is adopted. Her, uh, birth mother is white. Her birth father is black. Um, this just looks exactly like her. And she even said that when I, um, I sent it out to family members and friends, um, but I struggled with it because I didn't see myself in this and, and so much about teaching of reading is about the identity of me and the teacher of readers, as well as the identity of readers.
[00:08:02] Jennifer: So I went back to the artists and the creative director. And I said, any chance you have more? And they sent me a bunch and that is where I then found myself. And it actually reminds me a lot of my daughter. Um, we do happen to look a lot alike. Uh, they also sent me artwork that reminded me of my son. Um, and others. And so, uh, for those of you who pick up the book, you'll see, uh, more my identity on the cover, and maybe you see yourself in that or your students in that. But then throughout the book, there are quite a few readers and it's not every reader, of course, but it's, it's meant to represent that we have to get to know the identity of our readers and help them discover who they are. Uh, I think I talk about in my, um, initial part of the book that my, my dad's identity as a reader is Louis La’mour. And I remember that of him reading and having all of the books and rereading the books. Um, and, and that's not my identity as a reader, but I, I connect with my dad over that.
[00:09:16] Olivia: Well, the art is gorgeous. The charts, the tables are extraordinarily helpful. And, you know, something I'm also grateful for are the reproducibles. Offering tools so we can take the learning and bring it to the classroom level is just spectacular. So thank you for all of that access. I appreciate it. Yeah. I read and I reread the section on the Academic Literacy Intervention Program that you crafted, and a huge part of that is, you know, taking variables that compete with what we want to happen for students in their literate lives with all of the other distractions they have and acknowledging that. So, can you take us through the process of what it was like to create that program and then how it became sustainable over time?
[00:10:11] Jennifer: Sure, so the catalyst for the program was that parent conference that you referenced early on, it, I, it didn't sit well, that I didn't know what to do, uh, so I, I went back and got my reading license first, like if I, if I don't know how to do this, I need to figure it out, and then that wasn't enough, I needed to know more about how do you intervene for adolescents who are reading below grade level and far below grade level? And it was in my doctoral work that I did a quantitative research study looking at the incoming ninth graders. We have more than enough literacy data at our fingertips that we can triangulate that data and really get a sense of who are the students coming in and who's going to need some additional support and at the high school that I was teaching at, we're a high performing high school.
[00:11:14] Jennifer: We're in US News and World Report, you know, the median on the standardized test for the general population of ninth graders is the 75th percentile. So if students are reading at the 10th percentile, 15th percentile, that's an even greater gap. Um, so through that research, I, discovered that we had quite a few students that were coming in and we all know that students are going to mask those challenges in lots of different ways and we need to do something about it. So from that I had a very supportive principal who really listened to me I was reading from all of the Giants: Kelly Gallagher, Penny Kittle, Stephen Lane, John T. Guthrie, um, Cris Tovani, Sam Bennett, you know, all of these, um, really incredible literacy leaders who were painting the picture of what we can do to advance literacy.
[00:12:22] Olivia: Yes.
[00:12:22] Jennifer: And as I was reading that, I'm like, that sounds fun. Surround kids with books, give them what they want to read in a just right challenge. Make time for them to write and get them talking about it.
[00:12:38] Olivia: Yes.
[00:12:39] Jennifer: And the scores will go up. Johnston and Ivey have like statistically significant studies to support it. So I was like that, that's what I want. Um, others were telling me that a computer program is what I wanted. And like I don't, I, I don't want to try that. I want to try this. Uh, but I was also compelled by the double dose. That, we can't take away English and replace it with this. Students really need both. They need support in their English class, but they need this. And, and I had to advocate that we hold sacred the time for reading, writing, talking at that just right challenge every day for a year. It's not social studies help hour. It's not science help hour. I can help you social studies teacher, scaffold.
[00:13:33] Jennifer: I can work with you on how to meet their needs in your class during your class period. But we need the time to accelerate the literacy growth and, and fortunately, we had the data to support it. They accelerated their literacy growth at four times the rate of their on-grade level peers. It was statistically significant and we were able to replicate it, um, over several years. Um, and the kids liked it and they, they talked to, you know, they didn't come in thinking they would like it. It's kind of like you can't swim. And I put swimming on your schedule every day. You know, they're scared, but it didn't take long to turn that around to build the community, uh, so much so that in the summer we did books and barbecue where we had, we had kids take books from our classroom library, and then come back mid-summer.
[00:14:34] Jennifer: Let's play some kickball, let's swap out some books, let's eat, let's talk about what you're reading this summer. And we had about 80 percent of our students come to that. Because it's a community and because they are reading and, and it is fun. Um, but in terms of the competition, especially now, um, it was difficult pre-COVID, but especially now students - people want the quick dopamine fix of their device, and reading is a slow drip of dopamine. And so we have to teach kids, we have to coach them, we have to have patience with them, um, because just like me, when I start a book, I'm quicker to check Instagram on, you know, paragraph two, than I am once I'm in the book, then I could care less about my phone because I want, I want the story, and I'm going to stick with it.
[00:15:40] Olivia: So it's interesting. Many of the literacy leaders, uh, and just educational leaders in general, you mentioned are near and dear to my heart as human beings. And I'll never forget reading Kelly Gallagher's book years ago, Readicide. And I remember I read, oh my gosh, there was just a section around that idea of losing all sense of time and space because you're so entrenched in a book that I think he had purchased a book, taken off for a flight, and then like lost track of the time. And then he was landing and he was like, oh, what's going on? He says so many of our students have never experienced that. And that idea of building in time, time, time, time, um, and holding it sacred is what I appreciate so much from your stance, from all of the people that I circle up with, because what happens, this is the thing that's bananas to me.
[00:16:44] Olivia: I work with school districts, K-12, even PreK-12, and it's fascinating the higher up I go working with teachers to support when you have a conversation often with middle or high school teachers and you ask, how long do you think the students could read for; sustain; you know, just independent reading. I'll often get numbers, like 10 minutes, 15 minutes, will be pushing it. And I sit there like, Are you serious? Because they could walk down into a second-grade classroom, a kindergarten classroom, first-grade classroom in that same school district, and the kids are sustaining for more than that because the texts are engaging, relevant, exciting.
[00:17:29] Olivia: So, I think there's also something to be said about not just welcoming the community in for having seats at the table in the conversation, but getting into each other's classrooms as teachers. So you can have that bar raised to see, whoa; these kids can do a lot if we believe a that all can and if we're getting out and seeing the work that's happening amongst the district and other classrooms. So it just struck me so deeply.
[00:17:59] Jennifer: So true, just in my own work of trying to figure out how do I meet the needs of it's very different to teach an academic literacy 9 class from. An AP class or an on-level grade 10 English speech class, I did go and visit my colleagues’ classrooms in elementary because I wanted to see how are they creating the conditions and the environment for this love of reading. And, and I learned a lot.
[00:18:34] Olivia: Yeah. And so I think something else we have in common is curiosity. I am always wanting to know more and that's why I thought I better start a podcast because I can ask people the questions directly instead of wondering. And the layer that you add that's unique, just totally unique to you and your work and your approach is the idea of inquiry. Inquiry to engage. And it capitalizes upon adults curiosity into topics. You know, we talk about the 6T's, um, with Ron Berger and Cris Tovani's work. And so, topic, task, text, uh, targets. And then Cris added time and tend. But when we also think of inquiry, um, you cite different layers of research that I appreciate. And so there's a Banchi and Bell. There are four layers of inquiry and then also the 3M and the Google, um, the Genius Hour. Would you speak to those and share that work?
[00:19:39] Jennifer: Sure. So when I started my own inquiry into inquiry, uh, I, I had so many misconceptions as a language arts teacher about so many topics as they would come out; formative assessment. I thought assessment was multiple choice tests. You know, I mean, it just, it took Cris Tovani’s uh, So What Do They Really Know? to teach me that, uh, uh, no assessment is instruction. Um, anyway, with inquiry, I just thought that was science, like the scientific inquiry. But I had just this incredible opportunity to be a part of a cohort of English teachers back when the Common Core State Standards were being developed. And Minnesota was in this unique place to provide responses while it was in draft. So we were able to try on some things and I just happened to, I don't know, stumble upon this cohort of teachers and we were trying on inquiry in our classroom. I was a complete island in my school. Um, I had great friends on, you know, and they're like, so great, Jen, whatever you're doing, we cheer you on, but we don't know what you're doing.
[00:20:52] Jennifer: I didn't know what I was doing, and that was good for me because I am a Type A control freak teacher, um, and I, I needed to step out into curiosity. I needed to learn how to let go of, of the controls. So, one of the things that I learned early that was helpful for me, um, and, uh, Banchi and Bell really helped with this, is that there's many rooms in the house of inquiry. And I think sometimes we think inquiry is chaos, free for all, let kids do whatever they want. Um, you know, it's misconceptions about Montessori and it's not. In order for inquiry to be really, really powerful, it requires planning and intentionality and structure and routine.
[00:21:47] Jennifer: And these were things that brought me comfort in my own controlling way. Um, and so, you know, you can have confirmation inquiry, which is simply we've learned something. Let's pose a question, go out into some of the texts and just make sure that we're confirming what we know. Is our understanding correct? So that's like dip your toes in inquiry. And then there's structured inquiry where it's really, really like this tight structure, but it's still an investigation. We're still looking in and pursuing a question. Um, but there's a lot of room for control for a teacher. And then there's guided inquiry. And we're doing that inquiry together, teacher and student.
[00:22:40] Jennifer: We're designing the question together. We're pulling the resources together. We're deciding how we want to share our knowledge together. And then there's that open inquiry. And this is what, you know, Google started in their 20% where they said to their workers, work four days a week. But one can be you to pursue your passion. And the only thing we ask is that you come back and share what you've learned. And we know that when 3M did that, that's where Post-it notes came from because there was, um, a, Like that they thought the glue was a failure and then someone turned it into - wait no, this is actually a really cool thing where you can stick and unstick. And I've seen that I've seen Genius Hour done in schools and in giving kids an opportunity to pursue their own passion project and then present out to the community is remarkable and they're learning at high levels the entire time they're doing that.
[00:24:05] Olivia: Yes, absolutely.
[00:23:48] Jennifer: And, and I think for, for me, it was really being able to let go. Trust that when students are engaged, they are going to persist and they are going to have the stamina and they are going to wrestle in ways that they're not when I decide everything for them.
[00:24:13] Olivia: It's so well said. Um, I want to give Rebekah Macden a shout out to with her work with Maracujá, which is, uh. It's not really even a program. It's more of an approach that she is utilizing with schools all over the world, and it's all grounded in passion. And so I love the juxtaposition of, you know, we've got to teach into standards. We have to make them accessible to our students through beautiful texts that they see themselves in.
[00:24:43] Olivia: Um, they have to have choice. They have to learn about the way others live in the world around them and we need to honor what we love to do as an asset to the community. So that idea of tending, it's tending to our souls. It's tending to what makes us light up and show up and want to be part of the world and what we have to talk about.So I appreciate that. Um, and so you just beautifully described what inquiry would look and feel like. And I also appreciate that you're naming as a teacher, it's hard to let go of the control because every minute is sacred. Um, I was having a conversation yesterday with a group of, um, instructional coaches around, we cannot teach everything.
[00:25:34] Olivia: There has to be, uh, it's an illusion if you think you can, uh, but we have to prioritize standards. We have to prioritize topics, um, of what's going to be the most relevant and engaging for our children, and which standards are the most heavily weighted based on the real world. And so, I know I did say in your intro that you are, um, the Director for Development for Learning and Development and a consultant for, um, Mackin Educational Resources. I cannot say enough about Mackin as a company and the resources they have to offer. What other resources supported you on your journey with inquiry?
[00:26:19] Jennifer: So, uh, like I said, visiting elementary classrooms was huge for me, um, that, that, and then seeing workshop translated at the secondary level from Tovani's work was a game changer, and we can talk about that in a little bit. Um, and then I had to create an environment that kids wanted to be in. And we didn't have classroom libraries, and there's a desert in secondary schools when it comes to classroom libraries. We could spend hours on that. We have to, like Kelly Gallagher would say, we have to flood them with books. Um, flood the environment. So I knew that in order to bring in a classroom library, I was going to have to secure some funding. So I wrote a grant. And one thing that I feel certain about is that our community organizations want to support literacy.
[00:27:21] Jennifer: And so it wasn't hard. And it was a small grant. It was like 3,600 that I got. But it was enough to bring in a nice classroom library, some bookshelves, some rugs, some pillows with covers that we can wash, you know, all the important things. Um, to make this feel like a coffee shop kind of vibe, right? But I had no idea what books to bring into the classroom library. I had read Of Mice and Men 20 times. I was not, I don't read young adult books in my free time or I didn't. I do now, but I didn't. So I was at a loss and it was our librarian who said, why don't you call Mackin? They have a team of classroom teachers who will build lists for you.
[00:28:17] Jennifer: They meet with publishers. They preview books, they read reviews. They know reading levels, they know standards, they can align it. You just tell them what you want and what your budget is and they'll put a list together. And I was like, no, I don't have any money to hire somebody to do that for me. You don't understand. I want to use every dollar for books. And she was like, Oh no, no, no, it's free. They don't even, you don't even have to buy the books from them if you don't want to. Um, we did because we built this relationship, but it was such an amazing service and I felt like they were my team. Um, you know, and full disclosure, five years later, I was at the district office and we were bringing in inquiry text sets in middle school science, social studies, ELA, some high school classes, you know, in a large district for Minnesota, um, it's not large, um, in the country, but fourth largest district in our state.
[00:29:19] Jennifer: And it was Mackin who helped us build the lists, they helped us figure out the logistics, the containment, like all the, stuff that I don't have time to think about, they have people on staff to do that. So that, and, and their heart is for getting authentic texts in the hands of teachers so they're in the hands of students. Um, what Daniel Pink would call a for-purpose company. Um, so that is why I ended up, uh, they needed a professional learning division and asked me If I would come and start that, uh, so that's what got me there. Um, and then the other, I've already named all these authors, but it was a team of other teachers at my school.
[00:30:06] Jennifer: There was another English teacher who decided to get her reading license. There were, there were a couple of special education teachers, an English Learner teacher, and then even a like a math teacher who were like, what are you guys learning about? What are you doing? And we just did our own organic PLC book study. And we started with John T. Guthrie's Engaging Adolescents in English. Literacy, I think it's called in Reading, in reading, maybe. Um, anyway, 2006 book, I highly recommend it because it, he includes surveys. We were able to survey our students. We did our own action research and we know from Hattie and, and Donohoo, who's work on collective efficacy, that that's what made the difference. The fact that we were working together, we were leaning into the same science, evidence-based practices, applying them in our classroom, looking at the results in our classroom to make sure that we had the evidence to continue to move forward. And, um, and it, it made all the difference.
[00:31:18] Olivia: Yeah. So much of this too, I think is about connection. You know, we want students to connect with themselves in their own literate lives. And I also think it's important they're connecting with others around the world. And I think it would be neglectful to not mention Pernille Ripp because, you know, her work with The Global Read Aloud and just, you know, she's just, she's an amazing human being in general and her mission to, you know, connect us with conversation and, um, really highlight the work and what kids have to say. Um, it's, it just, it's important work that I wanted to make sure to put out there, you know.
[00:32:01] Jennifer: Yeah, I'm glad that you brought her up. There were so many times when I was doing the work and I felt on an island. And I'm trying to explain to others what we're doing. And then I would go to a conference and I heard Pernille speak at an Iowa conference and I was like, oh, thank God. She's speaking my language. Okay, what I am doing, you know, and I felt the same when I saw Gay Ivey speak one time. I was like, yes, that's what we're doing. And she's got the research to back it up. Okay, we're doing the right thing.
[00:32:42] Olivia: Yeah, so let's pause there because you've mentioned workshop and, uh, Cris Tovani's work. And I know Cris, um, works very closely with Cris. I'm so lucky because the last 3 years I've been working with Cris and Sam in a school district. I'm a lucky duck. I don't take it for granted a second. Um, and their work combined, you know. Sam's book,That Workshop Book is a life-changing read and she speaks to the balance of 1/3 being facilitator, uh, one voice at a time in a 40 or 80-minute block, however you use your periods. And then 2/3 of that time, it doesn't matter what type of class it is. I want to put that out there. It doesn't matter the content area needs to be owned by the students to read, write, problem solve, talk; where the teacher's role shifts to facilitator of small groups of one-on-one conferences. But it's not that 1/3. And the way I think about the 1/3 is it's 1 voice. So here's what gets dicey, Jen. One voice is also if it's a student talking. So sometimes I'm in high school classrooms, middle school as well, where it's that, you know, I pose a question, a student responds, I pose a question, a student responds. Or even at the elementary level, the share of a workshop. If one voice is resonating in the walls of a classroom, that's out of the 1/3. The reason being, you have no way of guaranteeing how other people are engaged in learning if there's one voice. So, I think that's fascinating. Um, and then, time is a huge component of workshop as a structure. What, in your vision, does workshop look and feel like at the middle and high school level?
[00:34:38] Jennifer: So, that was also, paradigm shift, is that idea of, of, if I'm not talking, I'm not teaching, which is so not, it's - we need to be listening and following, so, and it, that idea of let's, let's see and learn and hear what do kids already know before we assume what we're supposed to teach them. Um, and so, again, it was Cris Tovani's book, um, So What Do They Really Know? That her structure became the Bible for me. Um, and, and we sort of simplified it into this start together, guided practice, end together. Um, and so that, that 1/3 is kind of split up between that beginning and end. You know, and in a 50-minute period, we were taking about 10 minutes for our, whether it was a read aloud, a mini-lesson, sometimes it was students that were doing some instruction.
[00:35:50] Jennifer: If it was something that the data was saying, the whole group is going to benefit from. And then guided practice time that is structured. It's not free for all, it’s everybody knows what their job is and what they're doing during guided practice. Um, but a lot more of the instructor is listening and responding. And that's where the teaching happens because it's responsive. It's, you know, that idea of don't assume what I need to learn until you know what I need to learn. That's how I feel as an adult. Um, so we, we, and, and there's a lot of professional development that's needed for secondary teachers for that guided practice time, especially because we don't know how to confer. We don't know how to do small group instruction. We don't know how to uh, set our students up for productive group work. We need to help our students with peer support. Uh, you know, all of that requires really intentional professional learning.
[00:37:04] Olivia: I agree.
[00:37:05] Jennifer: And then, uh, the piece that I wasn't committed to at the beginning was that end together, because I was like, so joyous that kids were engaged to the bell, and they weren't lining up at the door anymore, that I was like, I'm just gonna let him work till the bell. Well then I realized wait, I don't have the data I need for tomorrow. So we have to do some sort of end together, whether it's an exit card or whip around. Um, I mean, there are lots of tools for that. And then we just, we just got very committed to that structure to the point where I bought a visual timer.
[00:37:49] Jennifer: And I, I had students hold me accountable. When the red runs out, we're, yep, we didn't finish the read aloud. That's okay. We'll pick it up again tomorrow. Or if we don't need to, I'll leave it out for you know, that independent reading time. And if you really want to know how this book ends, come, come read the rest of the picture book. Um, and just really holding ourselves accountable and helping students to understand the why behind that. That if I take up all your time, I'm, I really am stealing your time for the deep learning, and that happens during that guided practice time.
[00:38:30] Olivia: It does. It's something Sam taught me as well, is that you actually have to start your planning with the guided practice. So you start with the 2/3, and I'm going to actually go back a step. You have to know your targets. So what do all kids need to know and be able to do? Um, and the why behind it. And so then you can articulate the why to the students and or for the students. And then, you know, what am I going to have them read?
[00:39:00] Olivia: What am I going to have them write? What are they going to talk about in order to reach that target? And what do I then need to model through think aloud or potential catches? Like what's going to be tricky for them that that's how I sprinkle my 1/3 time as a facilitator throughout the workshop, whether again, you're holding it as a 40-minute or 80-minute chunk of time?: Um, something that I think is so powerful. I want to just again, revisit that you said is that you have to have some type of end because you cannot plan your next day of instruction, right? The days of having a calendar with I'm going to do this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, you know, yes, we still need it pacing.
[00:39:48] Olivia: Absolutely. But it's more, you know, what's the immersion work I have to do? Background knowledge I have to do is for this unit of study for every content area. What am I going to have students reading and writing for the bulk of the unit, um, producing in small doses as makes in order to hit that big summit of assessment at the end? That's usually a project, not a test. Uh, it's relevant and it shows; it's a presentation of their learning. Hopefully for an authentic audience beyond the people in the classroom. So all of this goodness, right? That guided practice time, their independent time needs to be hitting that and structuring it. So if I were ever to have the gift of going back in the classroom as a teacher, it would be that I wouldn't, I couldn't imagine teaching any other way now. Because this is where I see kids the most engaged at the high school level, at the middle school level, and so many of the elementary schools that I support and serve are already living in a workshop structure. Um, so then let's continue. The conversation into the idea of braiding strands, because you have a gorgeous section in your book that talks about how do we weave this all together? And I love the visual of braiding. So how do we do that work?
[00:41:15] Jennifer: Again? This was a shift for me. I was a very traditional language arts teacher. I taught in the way that worked for me, I had a great rapport with kids. I, tried to make it fun, but we read a book. We did our novel unit. And then we wrote a paper, and it was usually a literary analysis, and then we did a speech unit because it's a speech class, too, and, um, it just became this more assignment-driven English classroom. And when I went through the inquiry learning, my own learning and really seeing what a true inquiry unit is about, uh, Jeffrey Wilhelm helped me understand this when he said, you know, can you get rid of your Romeo and Juliet unit? And instead ask the question, what makes or breaks a relationship? I was like, okay, light bulb. Yes, that sounds way more fun than trying to pull my kids through Shakespeare and let's all sit in a circle and try to read a language we can't read. Um, so that, that idea of let's reshape this into using an essential question that is provocative for students, that's engaging for our, um, kids to, for us to think about what's going to be engaging for kids.
[00:42:46] Jennifer: And then, um, allow that overarching question to drive the building of the text set. Texts being liberally defined to include podcasts, TED talks, music, art, picture books. Trade books, are amazing to use, especially in the content areas. Um, and then when we do that, it's no longer a novel unit. It's no longer a writing unit. It is a unit in which we are going to interrogate that question, and we are going to read, and we are going to write. And we are going to talk and we are going to reread and we're going to revise our thinking and we're going to talk some more and it's going to be okay to wrestle and say, wait a minute, I thought this yesterday, but I read this from this perspective and now I'm thinking differently and, and that that's, that's encouraged in the classroom.
[00:43:44] Jennifer: Um, and it allows us then to, I think, save time. You know, we're so concerned about checking off every benchmark, every standard. Well, we can, I, joke with the teams of teachers that I work with that, you know, we're going to cite textual evidence all year long We don't necessarily have to assess for mastery every unit. Let students collect some evidence of that for a while and then they can pick the evidence to show you so that you can check off the standard. Um, but we're going to be doing that we're going to be looking at central theme all year long. We're going to be focusing on the language standards all year long, and it gives us freedom to be responsive to the language standards that students need; that they individually need. Because not everybody needs to work on comments.
[00:44:45] Olivia: Right.
[00:44:45] Jennifer: And so how do we, you know, I mean, it just gives us that opportunity to, to braid them all together. And what's even more fun are the districts that I'm working with where they're doing multidisciplinary projects. And they are braiding the learning standards across the discipline. In addition to the learning goals that are important to their community. Many of the districts I'm working in are weaving in the, uh, teaching for tolerance, social justice standards. They're weaving in their own scholarship standards, um, technology standards. We can only do it if we bundle. If we, if we try to do it as a checklist, A, it's not fun or engaging, and students don't really learn it deeply.
[00:45:33] Olivia: No, and we know transfer is everything. And so why, why wouldn't we knock the silos down and help students see, you know, I have the gift of supporting a team of humanities teachers, um, Heather Roberts and Tom Bateson, and I have an episode with them. It's spectacular, and it highlights their work. And, you know, Tom is a global studies teacher, and he used the New York state Enduring Issues, um, as the crux. Those are the bigger themes. And then he and Heather shook them up to say, you know, from these enduring issues, what patterns in history can we organize? And so it's not an exact timeline, is history is often taught, it's tied to those enduring issues. And then Heather, as the ELA component of the humanities work, pulled gorgeous texts and resources that illuminated what the authors were living during those different time periods. And that's what authors do.
[00:46:34] Olivia: Their work, their perspective represents what's going on around them in the world at that time. So that idea of braiding is brilliant. And, you know, to wrap our conversation, something you said in the book, it just continues to resonate with me is that idea of, we have to create the conditions for learning. Um, it's our responsibility. So when I hear people say, oh, the kids, or they speak about students as low, medium, high, I pause and say, nope. No, that's not the way we describe human beings. Um, and it's also the idea of “smart” or AP or honors. I wish we could get rid of all of those labels because you know, as Carol Dweck says, you don't get smart or you don't have smart, you get smart. And we all, we all grow together. So what conditions of learning can we set moving forward for our students, um, so that they all have access to learning?
[00:47:38] Jennifer: It's a huge question. Um, and, and it is something that I'm, I'm very passionate about. I, too, bristle when, in the way that we talk about, young people and, um, and I, I, I just, I, I, I'm so happy that we are making progress and moving forward and thinking about neurodiversity and, you know, looking at attention deficit as a gift by my nephew has it, and I'm like, I, you, you have this hyper focus that is incredible and the creativity in your brain. And I wish I could live inside of it for just a little bit, right? And, and, and his, he calls me, I'm the book aunt because every time I see him, I bring books and I'm like, what genre are we into now? And, and that idea of recognizing that the gifts that are in front of us in the classroom and the joy that it brings me to be able to spend 50 minutes with the gifts in front of me.
[00:48:52] Jennifer: Um, I, and I want students to feel that at the same time. I struggled when I first started academic literacy because I was seeing all of the avoidance behaviors at one time. And in the book, I talk about my colleague and I, at happy hour, we’re lamenting about like they're driving me crazy because they will do anything but read. And I feel like I'm walking around whack-a-moling the behaviors and that's not working. It's just a power struggle. I don't know what to do. And, and so in jest, we cast the characters. We're like, who do we have? We've got Makeup Molly, who always pulls out our makeup as soon as it's time to read. And we've got Hallway Hank, who's in the hallway every time there's anything that is work-related.
[00:49:47] Jennifer: And I've got Bobby Belligerent and, you know, I mean, just like all of these characters. And then we started to think about, don't we do that? Don't we avoid? And I'm like, oh yeah, I am online shopper, Olivia. Yep. As soon as I've got to write that blog, I'm looking at J. Crew to see what's on sale. And so what if we shared that with students, that we all avoid hard until we can like get into it. And once we get into it and build our confidence, then we can get into the flow. And, and so we shared the cast of characters with our students and they laughed and they called each other out and they recognized themselves.
[00:50:37] Jennifer: And then we, we worked our way into coaching students instead of calling them out. Because that doesn't, if you call me out for being online shopping instead of doing, I, I'm going to resist that and I'm not an adolescent anymore. If I were an adolescent, I'm really going to resist it. So we moved into taking on a coaching role. Um, I do have some tools in the book that really helped us. Just an engagement chart and being able to have conversations to say, okay, something's getting in the way. What are some tools? What are some ways that we can work together? Maybe it's not the right book. Maybe it's not the right place in the classroom to be sitting.
[00:51:27] Jennifer: Maybe you, I mean, I had one student who played video games till 4 o'clock in the morning, so he slept the first hour. And I'm like, I wanted him to say, I won't play video games so late. That was not his solution. His solution was maybe if I could have a snack first hour, I could keep myself awake. And I said, okay, bring in something that won't make a mess in my reading area, Cheerios or something. And we'll give that a shot. And he did that and you know, over time he'll make his own choices to not play video games so late. But I'm not at his house. I can't control that. I can help him recognize what's getting in the way of meeting our goals of reading for 20 minutes every day.
[00:52:18] Olivia: Yeah, I keep thinking of a conversation I had with my younger son this morning around, you know, there's always something behind a behavior and one of the books that, it just rocked my world around this is Cris Tovani's Why Do I Have to Read This? And it speaks to all the masks. And so in the same light as what you and your colleague were doing, you know, there's the avoider, the person that shies away, but they're all masks. And it's so much about getting to know each other deeply and, you know, what's behind the behavior. And then it's, it's just not okay to shame anyone for anything. And I don't know why it sometimes feels comfortable for grownups to shame children because it's not, and we have to model having empathy and tending to each other's needs because I'm so much more willing to show up for you and be engaged and do the work if I know you actually care about me.
[00:53:22] Olivia: So, um, Jen, you know, reading your book, Inspiring Lifelong Readers, um we can inspire lifelong readers when they know we love them. And when we know we love the work and we're doing the hard work of, um, checking in on ourselves and transforming, you know, a lot of this conversation hasn't just focused on inspiring lifelong readers, you are a lifelong learner, and I think it's all about transformation. So I am grateful for you and your work and just having you as a colleague to talk this through together. So thank you.
[00:53:57] Jennifer: I agree. It's been amazing to connect with you. And it's always fun to talk about this work.
[00:54:04] Olivia: It is. I will make sure to put all of your details in the show notes. And, um, so listeners can get in touch with you for your support and, um, just thank you for being you. Take care.
[00:54:14] Jennifer: Thank you.
[00:54:15] Olivia: Schoolutions® is a podcast created, produced, and edited by me, Olivia Wahl. Special thanks to my guest, Dr. Jennifer McCarty Plucker. Also, a big thank you to my older son, Benjamin, who created the music that's playing in the background. I would love for you to share the podcast far and wide. Leave a review, subscribe on YouTube, and follow us on TikTok, Twitter, Instagram, Threads, and Facebook @schoolutionspodcast. If you'd like to become a Schoolutions®sponsor or share episode ideas, leave me a SpeakPipe voice memo at my website, www.oliviawahl.com/podcast, or connect via email at @schoolutionspodcast@gmail.com. Thank you for joining the conversation. Let's continue finding inspiration together.