S4 E1: From Student to Teacher: Trevor Muir's Journey and Insights on Education

Welcome to Season 4, Episode 1 of Schoolutions, the podcast where education transcends the classroom. I’m your host, Olivia Wahl, and in this episode, we’re thrilled to kick off the new school year with a truly inspiring guest, Trevor Muir.

Trevor is an acclaimed educator, author, and founder of the Epic Classroom and Epic PBL. His innovative teaching methods and impactful videos have garnered international acclaim.

Join us as Trevor shares insights from his new book,New Teacher Mindset: Practical and Innovative Strategies to Be Different from Day One, co-authored with John Spencer. 

We'll dive into Trevor’s Epic Classroom platform, explore what makes a classroom truly "epic," and discuss the essential distinction between engagement and mere excitement in teaching. 

Discover how Trevor’s experiences, from his impactful student teaching years to his evolution as an educator, shape his approach to fostering meaningful and memorable learning experiences. 

Whether you’re a seasoned teacher or just starting out, this conversation will provide valuable perspectives and practical strategies to inspire and engage your students.

Tune in to learn how to create classroom environments where every student can thrive and find their own success story.

Check out these resources from Trevor!

• New Teacher Academy
• (FREE) New Teacher Toolkit 

When coaches, teachers, administrators, and families work hand in hand, it fosters a school atmosphere where everyone is inspired and every student is fully engaged in their learning journey.

Transcript

[00:00:00] Olivia: Welcome to Schoolutions, the podcast where education extends beyond the classroom. You'll leave each episode with coaching and teaching strategies that ensure every student receives the inspiration and support they need to thrive. I am Olivia Wahl and it's here, season four, episode one of Schoolutions. I could not think of a better way to kick off the 24 25 school year than with a person who I have admired, been inspired by, and followed for a very long time, the wonderful Trevor Muir.

[00:00:40] Olivia: Let me tell you a little bit about Trevor. If you don't already know, Trevor is taught at the middle and high school levels and currently teaches at Grand Valley State University. He is the founder of the Epic Classroom and Epic PBL and his videos have been viewed by millions all over the world. Our conversation today will focus both on Trevor's Epic Classroom platform as well as his newest book with John Spencer.

[00:01:06] Olivia: I have it right here. It's wonderful. New Teacher Mindset Practical and Innovative Strategies to be Different from Day One. It is such a high honor to have you as a guest, Trevor. And, um, I think this conversation will leave listeners ready to make sure all their children thrive within Epic classrooms. So welcome.

[00:01:29] Trevor: Oh, thanks so much for having me, Olivia. So excited to chat with you today. 

[00:01:32] Olivia: Yes. Um, so I kick off every episode asking my guest who an inspiring educator is from their life. I know it's going to be hard for you to choose just one. 

[00:01:42] Trevor: Wow. That is such a hard question. Because I get to be with so many, teachers all the time now and I get to hear their stories and they always just blow my mind and then I look back at my own childhood and you know, I was like one of those kids that just didn't like school very much, which is funny that I became an educator myself, but, um, I just didn't really like it.

[00:02:03] Trevor: And I remember feeling like, oh, I hate school. And then I look back at my own life. I'm like, wait a minute. I can like count quite a few you. Unbelievable educators for my childhood. Like a lot of them I can name and I can tell you every little detail that I like. And so I'm like, man, a lot of people stick with you, but I, I want to, I would say I'm going to go with the one who actually inspired this book that we just wrote.

[00:02:27] Trevor: Her name is Sherry Steelman. Um, she, uh, I get to student teach with her. Um, long time ago. So she, I, I was, she was my mentor and I learned more in the year of student teaching in her classroom than I did in all of college. Um, I, I just, I learned so much from her. And then even when I became a teacher, she just constantly was checking in with me and grabbing Panera after work and listening to me whine and listening to me like she was just everything.

[00:02:57] Trevor: And she just retired after her 50th year as a teacher. So she taught 50 straight years and she's like, all right, I'm done. I'm, I'm retired. And then a year later now, um, she's teaching like almost full time at the university level with preservice teachers. She's like, I can't get enough. I'm back. 

[00:03:13] Olivia: Yeah. 

[00:03:14] Trevor: I’m just like, man, I want to be Sherry Steelman when I grow up.

[00:03:17] Olivia: Yeah. 

[00:03:17] Trevor: So, 

[00:03:18] Olivia: well, it's part of our fiber. I think, you know, people that choose to go into education, it's not for the money. It's not for the accolades, um, outside of students that come back and say, you rocked my world and you changed me or you inspired me. So I think, you know, one of the biggest issues I want to read right from your book because you speak so beautifully.

[00:03:39] Olivia: Is that cool with you? 

[00:03:40] Trevor: Well, thank you. Yeah, 

[00:03:42] Olivia: absolutely. Page 229, Trevor. Uh, the problem that arises is the fact that just because most people attended school does not mean they understand the inner workings of how they operate. The complexities of teaching are impossible to grasp without working in a classroom.

[00:03:59] Olivia: As a result, social input is too often given from a place of ignorance. Amen. Amen. 

[00:04:05] Trevor: It's so frustrating. Yeah, I, 

[00:04:07] Olivia: I 

[00:04:08] Trevor: just, as we move into this political season and like all of the noise and the turbulence and, and all of the outside voices who have something to say about how schools should run and how teachers should teach and, and how it all should operate, which by the way, I do give space for, it's like, you are paying taxes, you can have input on schools.

[00:04:30] Trevor: It's like one of the most important institutions in our entire society. So it's like, yeah, of course I have input, but also recognize just because you went there, 

[00:04:39] Olivia: doesn't 

[00:04:40] Trevor: mean you understand how unbelievably complex the work is, right? Like teachers are doing so much more than meets the eye. I mean, and literally.

[00:04:49] Trevor: They're doing so much more behind the scenes. I think a lot of people think teachers just show up and, Oh yeah, they know about their content. And so they just show up and teach. It's like, no, no planning, the meetings, the professional development, the stress, the grading, the stuff they bring home, the fact that you carry your students trauma with you, the fact that you understand that like, yes, students are behaving.

[00:05:12] Trevor: They're communicating their, their stability or instability when they come to class. And so therefore I have to pivot and adapt and change the way my approach every single day. It's like that is so much more 

[00:05:23] Olivia: than 

[00:05:24] Trevor: I think anybody on the outside would ever understand. That's what I think. I 

[00:05:28] Olivia: agree. And you've, you've selected the word.

[00:05:31] Olivia: Epic. So epic in the dictionary is defined as particularly impressive and or remarkable. So in your mind, you know, what makes the classroom epic? 

[00:05:43] Trevor: Yeah. So I do think it's remarkable. But when I use the word epic, and that's why it's always fun for me to define because like, you know, when somebody says, Oh, that was epic.

[00:05:53] Trevor: It means like remarkable or big or huge. That's like, yeah, I love that. I love big and huge learning experiences. And we can talk about some of them in a bit. I mean, I love. Doing things that like blow students minds, of course, but like what epic really means to me is like the story of epic, you know what I mean?

[00:06:11] Trevor: Like the epic of Gilgamesh or any good story is an epic. It's, it's a beginning, middle and end. It's, it's the fact that there are real authentic problems to solve. Like there's conflict and I'm going to learn what I need to learn and I'm going to overcome obstacles that I need to overcome and and accept guidance that I need to, to get.

[00:06:31] Trevor: In order to solve a problem so that I can, I can do something real and then look back at it and think, yeah, this was a story. I was a part of so epic classroom. It really means what's the story. We're helping right with students. How are we joining student stories? And that doesn't require blowing the walls off the classroom.

[00:06:48] Trevor: Every time that might mean that might mean like, hey. You're struggling with this, but you, you can do it, right? Like you got to put your nose down and you can work through this and you're going to look back at this and be really proud that you did. It's a story. 

[00:07:01] Olivia: It is. I appreciate that definition too, because the idea of epic being something that has to be revolutionary and entertaining at all times, you actually speak to that.

[00:07:12] Olivia: So let's go there because. I so I actually referred to your definition of engagement yesterday with leadership. I was serving and working with. I love how you break down the difference between entertainment and engagement, but then you lean on Philip. I want to make sure I'm saying his name, right? Select.

[00:07:34] Olivia: How do you pronounce this? Schlech…Schlech…

[00:07:36] Trevor: Schlechty. Yeah, it might be a silent. Hey, Phil. No offense. No offense because it's 

[00:07:41] Olivia: brilliant. It's brilliant work. So it's 

[00:07:43] Trevor: great work. Yeah. 

[00:07:44] Olivia: Schlechty, I think is how I heard it. Schlechty. 

[00:07:47] Trevor: Yeah. 

[00:07:48] Olivia: So, um, but that idea of engagement, high attention, high commitment. So let's talk about that.

[00:07:57] Trevor: Well, I, I'll start with like, I had this, you know, so I said earlier, I didn't like school growing up. So it's like, well then why'd you become a teacher? Um, And you know, a lot of that is like at the very end of college, I was an English major, I had no idea what I wanted to do with my life, but I was like, you know what, if I can get an English degree, that'll keep my parents, like keep my mom off my back and I can get my college degree.

[00:08:19] Trevor: Like you're supposed to do. And your grandfather saved up your whole life so you can go to college. And so it's like, you get your English degree. I've always been okay at reading and writing. I was like, that can get me through. Um, and then at the very end of college, I had this experience where, Um, I had the opportunity to go tutor.

[00:08:36] Trevor: Uh, I was like walking through the English hallway at Florida State University, and I saw somebody was hiring a tutor for their high school daughter. I was like, Oh, 7. 25 an hour. I'm going to be rich. So I went like pulled that phone number and I got that job and I started sitting down. And tutoring this girl.

[00:08:55] Trevor: And you know, the first time I met with her, her writing was not very good, which is why they hired a tutor, but I didn't know anything about teaching writing, but I was like, well, here's something I do when I write an intro paragraph. And so I showed her what I did and she kind of. Copied that and then and then the next week I met with her She's like getting a little bit better and all of a sudden her writing started improving And her grades started improving and by the end of that first semester She'd gotten like the first b of her entire life in english class and her mom was like had tears in her eyes She was like, oh, thank you.

[00:09:29] Trevor: This meant so much to caroline. Yeah And I was just like, holy smokes. I didn't know I could do this. I didn't, I didn't know I could take something I really enjoy doing and help somebody else learn how to do it. And it would not only help them do better in school, it would help improve their confidence and their self esteem and the way they carry themselves and believed in themselves.

[00:09:49] Trevor: I was like this. Feels like a superpower here. And, so I remember talking to a mentor about it and, and like I said, he, and I was like, he was like, well, what if you were a teacher? And I like spit in his face. I was like, nah, whatcha talking about, this is before Covid when you were allowed to spit . I wanna throw that out.

[00:10:06] Trevor: I just, yes. No, I was like, come on, I'd be a teacher. I hated school. Yeah. He's like, well, surely you had some teachers who, who you enjoyed. And that's when I started like, oh. I guess I really did like Mr. Peters, who helped me get through my parents divorce. And I loved Mrs. Schwanier, who helped me learn how to read my writing.

[00:10:27] Trevor: And I loved Mrs. Reams, who told me that, like, you could be an author. And she'd have me write long form stuff. And Mrs. Perry, who is the hardest, meanest teacher in the world, but boy, did she help me become a really strong writer. Yeah. And maybe she wasn't actually mean. Maybe she was just trying to help me.

[00:10:43] Trevor: hold me to a really high standard and it worked. And I go back and I look at these, these teachers who had this huge impact on me. And I can think of every single one of them was tough. Yeah, like what was gave me hard work some of sometimes they were fun Sometimes it was really exciting to be in their class often It was really challenging every single one of them and and so when I became an educator You know, my initial thing was like, Oh, I want to be off the wall and be exciting and play rap music when kids walk in the room and, and stand up on desks and all this stuff.

[00:11:18] Trevor: Um, and then I started learning and I can tell those stories too, but I started learning like, Oh, that's actually not engagement. That's excitement. We all like excitement sometimes, sometimes. I just need a little bit of downtime. I need to, I need to chill. Like this summer, I was all over on the road, working in different schools around the country.

[00:11:38] Trevor: And I was, and my family and I, we'd build in all these vacations in between, and then we'd go camping. And then my kids did camps and it was great, but it was a lot. And it was exciting. The last two weeks have been at home watching Survivor in the morning, reading books, writing, going on walks. And it's like, Oh, yeah.

[00:11:59] Trevor: Like this feels better. 

[00:12:02] Olivia: Yeah, 

[00:12:02] Trevor: but it's not exciting this, but this feels engaging. And I think it's this. That's my long way of saying exciting is one thing. Engaging is about is something else. But engaging is really about, like you said, high commitment, like students are committed to what they're working on.

[00:12:18] Trevor: And then high attention like they're here. They're here for it. And that doesn't mean they're bouncing off the walls necessarily. Sometimes it's fun to be exciting. Sometimes epic is remarkable. Sometimes it's hard. Sometimes it's tedious. But as long as their kids are with you, that's what matters. That's 

[00:12:34] Olivia: it.

[00:12:35] Olivia: That's it. And I think that idea of relevancy is so critical because What I'm finding even, you know, I'm moving forth into this school year, I have promised myself as a coach, I told you this before that I will never ask teachers to try something or commit to something that everyone in the system has not studied and tried themselves.

[00:13:02] Olivia: And that's, it feels like impossible, but I've spent the last, I would say six months with one particular school district priming. I'll call it like the work that goes in before the party happens. And, you know, it's all of that planning and thinking and studying research and making sure that teachers feel that they, they can commit to something that there's authenticity around.

[00:13:26] Olivia: Um, and that I hate the term buy in. Trevor, I've always hated that because I'm not selling you anything. You know, 

[00:13:33] Trevor: the idea 

[00:13:35] Olivia: of shared commitment. I want us to have a vision that we are committing to for children and something, you know, something that struck me with your book title. new teacher, right? And so if I look new teacher mindset, I may assume it's for new teachers, but it's not.

[00:13:55] Olivia: It's not at all. So why do we? It doesn't matter if we're new. It doesn't matter if we've been in the classroom 25 years. Why do we need to think differently? What does that mean to you? 

[00:14:05] Trevor: Yeah, I mean, I think it's because the world's changing always and it always has been, by the way, like, I know there's this, this accelerated.

[00:14:14] Trevor: Change that's happening right now. And so it's like, we're doing some really quick adapting as AI has taken the scene as, as we're still emerging from COVID and the lack of attention and commitment and engagement that we're seeing from a lot of students as we move out of, into a whole different space.

[00:14:31] Trevor: But, like, there's always been this need to pivot and adapt. That's, that's a requisite for teaching because teaching at its core is supposed to be about two things. It's about helping students find success in the future, but also finding success in the moment. I think sometimes school becomes so much about this hypothetical future.

[00:14:51] Trevor: About like, oh, we've got to get you ready for some day. It's like, yeah, that's true. Of course, we're getting you ready for some day. But this is your childhood, right? This is, this is 13 years of your human existence. This is like some of the most formative, beautiful. Innocent special time to be alive. And so if we're just focused on your SAT scores, when you're 18 or just focused on college attrition rates and, and, and standardized tests are about predicting how well you're going to stay in college, if that's all we're focused on, we are missing the main point, which is your childhood.

[00:15:24] Trevor: And so teaching is about how do I give you success now? And so you can have success later on. And that requires keeping your finger on the pulse. Right. That requires asking. All right. What do I need to do to adapt to different technologies? All right. Hey, some of the ways that I used to teach still work.

[00:15:43] Trevor: So I'm gonna keep doing those. Some of the ways I used to teach are no longer effective. Data is showing it's no longer effective. My students engagement levels are no longer showing no effectiveness. You know what? Maybe I need to change it up a little 

[00:15:58] Olivia: bit. 

[00:15:58] Trevor: Um, you know, for instance, Okay. You know, I was told in college that you should never smile before Christmas, right?

[00:16:04] Trevor: Like, 

[00:16:04] Olivia: yes, 

[00:16:05] Trevor: I was told Trevor, you look so young for your age. Yes. Um, you look like the karate kid, except not the Cobra Kai version. You look like, you look like a 16 year old Ralph Macchio. And so if these, if you go into this classroom, these kids are going to think that you Can be trifled with and they're going to take advantage of you.

[00:16:23] Trevor: And if you give an inch, they're going to take a mile. So you need to be firm. You need to be tough. You need to make sure kids know you mean business before you release any joy to them. 

[00:16:32] Olivia: Yeah. 

[00:16:32] Trevor: I was like, well, I'm not a tough guy. Well, you better be. So tried that out. Didn't work for a lot of my students.

[00:16:40] Trevor: Some of them were like, whew, this 12 year old means business. But some of them were like, you know what? I get yelled at all the time at home. 

[00:16:49] Olivia: Yeah. Yeah. This isn't what I need. 

[00:16:52] Trevor: Yeah, this isn't what I need. I listen to my parents screaming in their bedroom at 2 a. m. I don't need that from you. And so therefore I'm not going to listen to you.

[00:17:02] Trevor: And so like, it's like, you know what? Maybe there was a time in history where that firm approach worked for 30 kids at the same time. I don't know. It never really worked for me. But maybe it did. It did not work for me. And if it, and if it did, I think I was getting compliance rather than commitment. Huge.

[00:17:19] Trevor: Right? 

[00:17:20] Olivia: Yes. Yes. Yeah. And, 

[00:17:22] Trevor: and so I was like, okay. And, and I can, it's a long story, but like it kind of fell apart. I was like, okay, I need to find a more authentic way to manage my students. I need to be more proactive in how I manage them because clearly the Mr. Tough guy routine isn't working. And so it's like, okay, there is a pivot that had to happen.

[00:17:39] Trevor: Now, I've overcorrected it as well in my own career, where I, like, started with way too much energy at the beginning of the school year, and I allowed way too many inappropriate jokes to happen without getting checked, and I allowed too much to go on. And all of a sudden, students do start taking advantage, and they're like, wait, you're the fun guy, you can't, you can't tell me what to do.

[00:17:59] Trevor: Yeah. I'm like, ooh, actually I can. Yeah, I can. And so it's like, okay, maybe it takes a little bit of, it takes more than one answer. And I think that's part of the mindset. It's like, it's not black or white. It's it's nuance. It's figuring out. 

[00:18:12] Olivia: Yeah. I would say too, that I appreciate how you speak to the difference between climate and culture and the book.

[00:18:19] Olivia: So, you know, you just said you let too many jokes go by, but you also are brilliant with using humor. So I think so much, um, especially when I was teaching younger children, kinder, first, second grade, that age, there's a tenderness, a There's a kindness that needs to be had with children. So they know you're serious.

[00:18:42] Olivia: Like my kids knew I'm at business. Like we are the serious work of learning, but I really love them. And I love this work and I love the books we're reading. And so I think it's that odd juxtaposition we have as educators of being tender and super serious about the work that we're doing. Thank you. 

[00:19:05] Trevor: Was that hard to do with young kids, finding that balance?

[00:19:10] Olivia: It was, but I think that Children to me bring such joy. They make me smile. And this was actually before I had my own two boys. And so I think when you have your own children, you have a whole different appreciation for other people's children. You have, you're even more kind. I think, I hope like I, I pause.

[00:19:31] Olivia: Right. But this was when I was, I was a bit younger and. Yeah, it was hard, but they're innocence, I think, at that age. And, you know, if someone's acting out, there is always something behind the behavior, always. So that was something that's funny to me. You know, that idea of climate culture and you speak to humor.

[00:19:54] Olivia: And so that balance, I think, is important. 

[00:19:57] Trevor: I just, you know, when you say climate, climate is like that atmosphere for everything else to take place in. A climate can also be defined as vibes, right? Like, it's the vibe of the class. It's the, it's the place where everything else can happen. Yeah, absolutely.

[00:20:12] Trevor: It's the environment. It's the air you're breathing. Um, and, and I think that, call me crazy, I think there should be a climate of joy in classrooms, right? Yeah. Not that it always has to be laughing and it doesn't have to be smiling. And sometimes the climate allows space for, for conflict to happen.

[00:20:30] Trevor: Healthy conflict. Sometimes students get mad at each other and we've got to allow that to happen. But man, do I think that we should have some joy at school? I've heard the sentiment many, many, many, many times, many, many, many times that school isn't supposed to be fun. It's not about fun. It's about learning.

[00:20:48] Trevor: And it's like, okay, I hear you. 

[00:20:50] Olivia: Yeah. 

[00:20:50] Trevor: And then I had my own kids. And they come home and it's like, I want you to have fun. Like, I don't, I don't want you to just have your nose down in the book all day. I want you to laugh. It's your childhood, right? Like it is, 

[00:21:02] Olivia: it is indeed something though, that was interesting to me.

[00:21:06] Olivia: It's that idea of being flexible too. And so I was reading the section, um, still around culture and, and the idea of room setups. And so now shifting to that middle high school world. And. So many teachers I've been working with in that realm have been told, you cannot have your desks in rows. You have to have groups all the time.

[00:21:29] Olivia: Like this was, I'm telling you, I reread this section because I'm like, yeah, I felt like I was like fighting for teachers with, with your voice, because it's not all one group. Thing it's not that black and white, right? And so the idea of flexible movable furniture Please speak to that because I think a lot of teachers will be like yes 

[00:21:50] Trevor: Yeah, you know, I I love that you agree with that because man do I agree with that?

[00:21:53] Trevor: You know so many - I have been to too many professional developments where the answer is whatever the person that's doing the PD has to say they'll show up and be like, “Here is the answer to teaching. Here is the new solution. Now, I like this idea that like, hey, here's the one-size-fits-all, this is the new answer to engaging students.” And then every teacher in the room rolls their eyes because they know like, okay This is the new solution until we get a new principal, and then a new professional development.

[00:22:21] Trevor: And then all of a sudden we have a brand new solution, right? Like, this technology is the answer until a brand-new technology. And then it's, and it's like, we all get it. You know, I often ask when I'm with teachers, I always do a poll, like, all right, who's been teaching for 10 years, 15 years, 20 years. And then always, there's always, who's been teaching for 30 years, 35 and everybody claps.

[00:22:42] Trevor: Cause it's like, Holy smokes, you've been doing this a long time. And then I always ask. Have you seen anything change since you've been a teacher? Yes. And everybody laughs because it's like, of course. Yeah. All right. Have you ever had a new principal who said, this is how you're supposed to teach? Yes. Did that principal ever, ever leave?

[00:23:00] Trevor: Yes. Did you have a new principal that had a new way of, and it's like, it's common. And so when I hear this thing, like, oh, we have to get rid, we have to get rid of this. That always makes me pause a little bit. Like, wait a minute. Why do we have to get rid of it? Are you sure we can't, Supplement it or are we sure we can't adapt it a little bit?

[00:23:20] Trevor: Yeah. Like you said, speaking in rows. It's like, listen, I, when I was a brand new teacher, it was like, we got to get rid of rows. They were made for the industrial revolution. Heck I, you know, Right. And a lot of that's true. Like kids were preparing for working in factories. So like, let's put them in rows, get ready for factories.

[00:23:39] Trevor: And so like in 2012 or 14, I gave a TED talk. It was like one of the first times I got to speak on a stage. And it was all about like, we got to get rid of rows. We got to, we have to change things up. And I meant it, it was the idealism of, uh, A fairly new teacher, but then you start teaching a while and you start giving some direct instruction Which still has an absolute place in the classroom and it always will People sometimes you got to deliver the big idea to students.

[00:24:06] Trevor: Sometimes you have to tell a story. Guess what? It's hard To keep your students attention when they're all sitting in groups with their backs to you. 

[00:24:13] Olivia: They can't see. Yeah, I can't see I need you to orient 

[00:24:16] Trevor: this way. 

[00:24:17] Olivia: Yeah. Yeah 

[00:24:18] Trevor: Sometimes, you know, as much as I don't love standardized testing all the time or I wish we could have less of it Back then students still have to test Guess what?

[00:24:27] Trevor: Sometimes, testing, it's a lot easier to manage students when they're sitting in a nice, uniform row for testing, or like I said, with direct instruction, or sometimes the introverts don't need to sit in groups. Sometimes, my introverts are going to burn out if they're constantly looking at other people and having to interact.

[00:24:45] Trevor: Sometimes they need to sit by themselves. So flexible furniture. Let's move it to the way we need it. You know, one of the things I've always done is have, uh, different orientations for the classroom and I put them on a diagram on the wall, um, and we just number those orientations and say, okay, guys, today we, I'm going to be telling some stories and then I'm going to have you just write about it.

[00:25:04] Trevor: So we're going to sit in a model number three, which is the horseshoe. So you have two minutes, get the room into a horseshoe. Ready, set, go. Everybody grabs their stuff, moves it in. I don't have to do it during my planning period. I can just sit back and watch because they're trained. We spend that first week training.

[00:25:19] Trevor: It's about like, how do you do this type of stuff? “Oh, today guys, we're working in groups. Uh, we're going to keep working on the project. We're going to go into, uh, orientation two, ready, set, go.” 

[00:25:33] Olivia: So smart. So Yeah, it's not black or white, but they also it's giving students the autonomy to understand the why, you know, something you said, right?

[00:25:42] Olivia: If I am, if we have a speaker come in, it's really stinking hard to see the speaker. If we're all in groups and that, and even in professional learning experiences, I think of that all the time. Like, how are we positioning and setting the room up so everyone can have access to the learning, ask the kids.

[00:26:01] Olivia: Two, you know, it's not just us assuming what's best. It's asking the kids. So I think those are key pieces. Um, something I absolutely loved that you shared too in the book though, it is the onboarding system you have in place. Because when I was teaching in California, we had huge transiency in the school.

[00:26:20] Olivia: Um, and so we had new kids coming constantly throughout the year and it was, it's such a beautiful example. I think it will help teachers. So would you share your onboarding system? 

[00:26:30] Trevor: Yeah, well, I mean, it really just boils down to having mentors and buddies paired up, right? Like, it's, it's about having, uh, there is just nothing worse than being alone.

[00:26:40] Trevor: It's such, it's, it's even like a common, like, trope in, like, TV shows and movies about kids go to school and they don't feel comfortable. Like all the other kids laugh at them or they feel alone or the new kid in town. It's like, that is a really, and you know what? That's a realistic feeling. That's difficult.

[00:26:54] Trevor: It's hard for adults. You know, I remember moving to a brand new school. Um, in my fifth year of teaching, I went and taught at a different high school. You just feel like the odd man out you're entering somebody else's community. Um, and so I think when we can create systems. That invites students into the community right away.

[00:27:12] Trevor: There doesn't have to be this ease in. I mean, of course, give space to ease in, but like, hey, you are part of it right away. And so, um, having students designated to pair up with kids, sharing the routine, sharing, like, you know, putting it all together, you know, I think for younger kids, a map of the school, this is actually a really cool project that I know, um, A second grade teacher I know did where they she had her second grade students.

[00:27:36] Trevor: They have to learn about maps anyway, right? That's in the common core, right? And so they're learning about maps. So, like, let's create maps of the school and we'll put all the different locations. Like, here's the best water fountain. Here's the best way to get. And then they went and presented it to the kindergarten class and said, Hey, anytime you come to kindergarten, you get this map on your very first day.

[00:27:56] Trevor: And it'll show you how to get around. 

[00:27:57] Olivia: And then they 

[00:27:57] Trevor: expanded it. It's like, all right, anytime there's a new student at the school, they get this welcome packet including in the well pick welcome packet is like to show you. And it's like, and they got to learn content during it. So it's not saying, Oh, I want to do this thing that's really about empathy and onboarding and love.

[00:28:14] Trevor: And so we're going to have to throw out content for a week. It's like, no, we're going to learn content at the same time while we're exercising empathy and love. We're going to do both. I just don't see any reason why 10th graders can't do that. 

[00:28:27] Olivia: I agree. Like 

[00:28:27] Trevor: I don't know why we can't use geometry to create our maps or whatever it is.

[00:28:32] Trevor: Like I don't see why we can't have that kind of joy tied in but it really does. I think that's what it comes down to is community and pairing kids up and but having a system in place for that. So, you know that like when there's a new student. We, we have like, okay, uh, this week, Kenzie and Mike, you are going to be paired up with our new student, you're going to show them the way around, you're going to make sure that they understand all this stuff, you're going to invite them in, they're going to sit by you, um, and do that, so.

[00:28:59] Olivia: It's, I, I adore the map idea. Is it good? It's awesome. And what a great thing to do with kids the first week or so of school, just to get the bearings, um, of the environment. And that's something it seems so small, but the impact and ripple effects that can have are tremendous. So you write, you speak to.

[00:29:21] Olivia: The problem or the fear of that superhero mindset. Um, I interviewed Colleen Cruz, and she talks about a savior complex, you know, and all the movies and all the media teachers are that savior. “I'll sacrifice everything to help you.” This is a perfect example of. A realistic way to connect children, to welcome them in that doesn't have to be a savior or superhero.

[00:29:46] Olivia: So I'd love for you to speak to that idea of why the superhero notion burns teachers out. 

[00:29:53] Trevor: Yeah, because we're not. 

[00:29:55] Olivia: No, 

[00:29:55] Trevor: We're not. Teachers are not superheroes. That's why it doesn't work. 

[00:29:58] Olivia: Yeah. 

[00:29:59] Trevor: Um, you know, I, uh, tell a quick little story. I had, uh, this was early in my teaching career. I had this student in my class.

[00:30:06] Trevor: Won't say his name. Um, We'll call him Mike. So I had this kid named Mike in my class and he was so difficult. He was just, he didn't do anything. He, he was constantly like sleeving class in the middle of class, he was stealing cell phones, all of these issues, terrible attitude, just a really difficult kid.

[00:30:28] Trevor: And I remember all the teachers had trouble with Mike, and it was just like, man, this kid is really hard. And then one day the principal, Uh, at a staff meeting. Um, it was like, Hey, so we found out that Mike is only eating meals at school. So he's only eating lunch and he doesn't eat dinner and he's not getting breakfast and in our state, we didn't have free breakfast at the time.

[00:30:54] Trevor: You know, I just, I like, so this kid only eats at school and on the weekend, he eats what he can find or he doesn't eat. Like you said earlier, behavior is communication. Like, guess what? His bad behavior is communicating some serious deficiencies. So, as, as teachers, we were like, you know what, let's, let's.

[00:31:14] Trevor: Do what we can. And so we just started bringing them in breakfast. It was not a big task, but it was like, all right, whether it's granola bars or somebody picking up McDonald's on the way to school, let's make sure this kid has a full belly in the morning. Cause that's really when it rears, it's ugly face.

[00:31:26] Trevor: So we started doing this and man, did I start connecting with Mike? And I just used to. And we just saw a rapid improvement. I got to start sitting down with Mike and, and, and I, I took him, he was right in the bus, but he was at a bus money. I was like, well, let me take you home. So I got permission to take him home.

[00:31:42] Trevor: And I really was connecting with this kid. I was like, yes, it's happening. He started working in school and we were all like celebrating it. And then one day I was teaching class and my principal knocked on the door. And Mike was a 10th grader, by the way, she knocked on the door. Um, and she's like, Hey, can I talk to you, Mr.

[00:31:59] Trevor: Muir? I said, sure. Um, and I go out there and she said, hey, we just found out that Mike's cousin was murdered last night. Um, and Mike lives part time with this cousin. So do you want me to tell him? Or do you want to? I know you have a relationship. I'll talk to him. So I went and told Mike and kid. The child bawled his eyes out, of course.

[00:32:22] Trevor: And I remember hugging him and letting him just sob on my shoulder, and it was a really tough thing, and I didn't know what to do. Um, and then that Friday, I remember going to his cousin's funeral and seeing Mike there, and it was like the hardest thing I've ever been to. I've never seen people wail like that, and it was so hard.

[00:32:39] Trevor: And then the next week, Mike didn't come to school on Monday, didn't come to school on Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, so he missed that whole week. And then the following Monday, we found out that Mike dropped out of high school and I've never seen him again. 

[00:32:54] Olivia: So I'm like, 

[00:32:56] Trevor: yeah, that's it. So it's, and then guess what?

[00:32:58] Trevor: I don't have a happy ending to that story. 

[00:33:00] Olivia: No, 

[00:33:00] Trevor: I can't be like, well, but then I got an email from Mike years later. It's like, no, I have no idea what happened to Mike. And so I'm just like, Hey, you know what? I remember being told in my first year of teaching, Oh, Trevor, you can't save them all. Right. Like I had this like savior complex.

[00:33:16] Trevor: And I remember getting so pissed at that. Yeah. Uh, It's like, what do you mean I can't save them all? This is the attitude that's hurting kids. And um, I think I misinterpreted it. It's, it's, it's actually Trevor, it's not your job to save anybody. 

[00:33:31] Olivia: Yeah. 

[00:33:32] Trevor: You know, I remember during COVID, I was struggling so much getting students to turn on their zoom cameras and show up to class and stop playing Fortnite.

[00:33:39] Trevor: And, and it was like, It was the worst. And I remember like venting about it on the internet and somebody shared some wisdom with me that I have taken with me ever since your job is not to get 100 percent participation from your students. Your job is to continue to give them opportunities to succeed.

[00:33:57] Trevor: You are not a puppet master. You cannot control them. All you can do is give them opportunities and you can get better at giving opportunities and you can find ways to give different types of opportunities to meet different students needs. But at the end of the day, it is out of your control. I could do everything I wanted to help Matt, Mike.

[00:34:14] Trevor: Some of it is just beyond me. Um, it's beyond us teachers. And so relieve yourself of that pressure. It's not for you to hold. It doesn't help. It's not helpful. I guess we can sum it up with that. It's not helpful. Instead, it's like, hey, how can I continue to try to give the best opportunities possible? 

[00:34:30] Olivia: Yeah, I, I, I see that.

[00:34:33] Olivia: And it's that idea of, again, what do I have control over and what can I, um, the impact I can make and you offering those opportunities and trying, um, that's, uh, that's a hard story. 

[00:34:45] Trevor: Yeah, it's a hard one. Yeah, but guess what I tell that story sometimes it's not a it's not a rare story 

[00:34:51] Olivia: No, it's not it's… 

[00:34:52] Trevor: Right? like that's part of it is like this is everybody's story in some way. 

[00:34:56] Olivia: Yeah, and I think for newer teachers coming in. I know you do a lot of work supporting new teacher preservice teachers, and so I'd love to wrap our conversation. You know, what's a story that surprised you? Um, working with new teachers or preservice teachers 

[00:35:13] Trevor: Yeah, you know, like I'll give maybe two examples, but like one, I, often, uh, pull teachers, and I pull new teachers too.

[00:35:21] Trevor: Like, who here was an A student in high school? So who are my 4.0 kids here? 

[00:35:26] Olivia: Yeah. 

[00:35:27] Trevor: I would say, and I asked this question, all over the place. And I'm always making a certain point. It's not even this point, but I'll tell you the point I've tried to make. But I probably about 80 to 90 percent of teachers I talked to were good students in high school.

[00:35:41] Trevor: Like they're all the hands go up. Cause then I say, okay, if your hand’s up, like, and then everybody looks around and we laugh, like, yep, you were all A students, which makes sense. Like you did well here. So I want to help other people do well here. So that's often high achievers go on and become educators.

[00:35:56] Trevor: And then I say, all right, keep your hand up if you hated group work when you were in school. And everybody keeps their hand up. And it's like, yeah, cause why, why do you think that is Olivia? 

[00:36:03] Olivia: Well, because you want, you're controlling, you want to own the work, you know, it's sharing and having to count on someone else gets a little scary.

[00:36:11] Trevor: Oh, exactly. Especially when you have to share the grade and the credit, like teachers often don't like to do group work with their students because it was a really sour experience for them. And then our conversations become, okay, well then how, can we make this a better experience for your students, for all of your students?

[00:36:28] Trevor: But what's interesting is a lot of people did well in school. And so the natural belief would be like, Oh, this is going to be cake. And then you get there. And then what often happens when I work with new teachers, it's like, this is hard, this is tiring, this isn't, this isn't as easy as I thought it would be.

[00:36:46] Trevor: And it's like, no, but then what happens, and this is what you always want to say to new teachers, is, the more you do it, and the more you lean on other people who've already been in your shoes, the easier it's going to get. So many new teachers leave the profession. I won't say quit because it's not just quitting.

[00:37:07] Trevor: It's leaving in the first five years. Cause the first five years are 

[00:37:12] Olivia: hard. Some not 

[00:37:13] Trevor: always, but sometimes it's like, I don't know how to work with difficult parents. I don't know how to deal with, with, with students who are off the wall. I don't know how to do tier one, but then also tier two and differentiate and, and manage my grades and keep an organized classroom and, and deal with.

[00:37:29] Trevor: It's a lot, but then you start working with them and you start hearing the stories and you're like, see. You can do it and you're getting better at it. Right. Like I, you get better at it. My first year of teaching was, I would like to define it as a dumpster fire. Yeah. I don't know if my students learn very much about the content that I was teaching my first year.

[00:37:54] Trevor: And I'm not just saying that to be falsely humble. I don't think. Like, I think they learned a lot of other things. I think they learned that I cared very much about them and that they developed lots of skills and, and it was a great experience. And I still hear from some of those kids from the first year.

[00:38:08] Trevor: It's like, well, kids, I still hear from some of those 30 year olds. 

[00:38:13] Olivia: We don't age. They do, Trevor. 

[00:38:15] Trevor: Oh, that's right. That's right. But I'm just like, you know what you, but you know what, by. My second year, I was heck of a lot better than I was in my first year. Third year was a lot better. Fourth year. And it's just like, that's just the way it works.

[00:38:29] Trevor: That's why you talk to Sherry Steelman who finished her 50th year. 

[00:38:32] Olivia: Yes. 

[00:38:33] Trevor: And she's just like, gosh, some of this is so easy. Some of it is still hard, but some of that hard stuff is what makes it good. And so that's what, that's what I think it is. It's like the hard stuff's the good stuff. The good stuff's the hard stuff.

[00:38:47] Trevor: And find your 

[00:38:48] Olivia: people, find your people, 

[00:38:49] Trevor: and listen to 

[00:38:51] Olivia: Trevor Muir because you inspire a quote from your book. Um, it got me in the conclusion. So if it's okay with you, um, I'll wrap with this. The impact teachers have on their students, both big and small, lasting and momentary, underscores the immeasurable value of dedicating one's life to education.

[00:39:12] Olivia: It's in these simple joys and transformative moments that the true essence of teaching comes alive, reaffirming the profound difference educators can make in the lives of their students. Therefore, you say, we adapt. It's why we innovate. It's why we persist and develop resilience in a career that requires it, in order to thrive.

[00:39:35] Olivia: Thank you, Trevor. Thank you for kicking off the 24 25 school year with inspiration. And, um, thank you for all you do to keep education moving forward. 

[00:39:46] Trevor: It's all my pleasure. And I appreciate what you do as well. So thanks for having me on today. I really enjoyed it.

[00:39:53] Olivia: Absolutely, take care. Schoolutions is created, produced, and edited by me, Olivia Wahl. Special thanks to my guest, Trevor Muir. Also a big thank you to my older son, Benjamin, who created the music that's playing in the background. You can listen to Schoolutions wherever you get your podcasts or subscribe and watch on YouTube.

[00:40:12] Olivia: Don't forget to reach out to share your coaching and teaching strategies by leaving me a voice memo at my website, oliviawahl.com/podcast, or sending me an email at schoolutionspodcast@gmail.com. Make sure to tune in every Monday this school year to explore how coaches, teachers, administrators, and families collaborate to create engaging learning environments and ensure every student's success.