Reasoning Through the Bible
Topical Study - Will Christians Go Through Purgatory or the Great Tribulation? || Colossians 2:15 || Session 14
Since Colossians is so rich and dense with doctrine, this session summarizes the doctrinal section of the book. Jesus' many attributes are listed and explained, then a summary is given of the dramatic move when God transfers us from being a lost person to salvation and fellowship with Him.
Those that hold to purgatory tell us that Christians still must have some effects of sin purged from us. In another area, some teachers hold that Christians will go through the great tribulation while others hold Christians will be removed from the earth before the tribulation.
Prepare to challenge your beliefs as we compare the details of Colossians with the concepts of purgatory and the great tribulation. Colossians says the state of Christians is being holy, blameless, and beyond reproach, and He has made us presentable before Him.
Since Colossians is so rich and dense with doctrine, this session summarizes the doctrinal section of the book. Jesus' many attributes are listed and explained, then a summary is given of the dramatic move when God transfers us from being a lost person to salvation and fellowship with Him.
Those that hold to purgatory tell us that Christians still must have some effects of sin purged from us. In another area, some teachers hold that Christians will go through the great tribulation while others hold Christians will be removed from the earth before the tribulation.
Prepare to challenge your beliefs as we compare the details of Colossians with the concepts of purgatory and the great tribulation. Colossians says the state of Christians is being holy, blameless, and beyond reproach, and He has made us presentable before Him.
Welcome to Reasoning Through the Bible. My name is Glenn and this is Steve. We do a verse by verse Bible study through the Word of God. We've been working our way through the book of Colossians, and the first part of Colossians is very dense. We've taken our time and tried to go through all of it in detail. We're at the middle of chapter two and it's a good time to stop for just a minute, steve, and do kind of a summary of where are we in the book, because he's covered so much ground, so many deep concepts, that I think it's wise to just summarize those now and then talk about how those apply to some doctrines that we bump into on a regular basis.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think this is the first time in all the books that we've gone through so far that we've actually stopped in the middle to do a summary that shows how condensed and how much information is here in just these first part of Colossians.
Speaker 2:I said when we started this though I approached it with fear and trepidation, and it's because it's just so much doctrine and it was all so important that we were trying our best to be very careful to get it right. The couple of major themes here that are in this book so far, one of them are who is this person? That's Jesus Christ, and he spends quite a bit of time lifting Jesus up to who he really is and remember he was fighting against a heresy there that dealt with Gnostic heresy. One of the versions or sects of Gnosticism dealt with the idea of knowledge. Gnosticism comes from the root word gnosis, which means knowledge, and it was people that believed hey, you have to know some things, you have to come to some special knowledge of things. Paul was very clear in saying that Jesus is the center of all those things. We've created a list here just to kind of go through these in Colossians a big handful of things here about who Jesus is.
Speaker 2:115, jesus is the image of God. The image of God, and we talked about how that's not just kind of a lesser quality copy. It means image means all the attributes of, and 115, the first born over all creation. He is the preeminent one over everything that has been made. 116, the creator of the universe. 117, the sustainer of the universe. 118, the head of the church body. 118, again, the first born from the dead.
Speaker 2:119, the fullness of God. Think about it. Not only did he have all of the attributes, the image of God, but now he is all of the fullness of God. All the fullness of deity was in his physical body. That is a great, great teaching here, that all of God in every sense was in Jesus Christ. He is the reconciler of all things. We were enemies to God and he reconciled us. And then two, three, all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge are in Jesus Christ. Think of that, steve, all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. And then two, nine, for in him all the fullness of deity dwells in bodily form. 210, he is the head over all rule and authority. Steve, I have a question Is he worthy?
Speaker 1:Yeah, he is absolutely worthy and we see that through these listing that have been provided here because he's worthy that if we're in him, we get all of these benefits that are there listed out there, and it's just kind of sometimes a wonderment as why we as human beings can't sometimes get that concept. He is worthy.
Speaker 2:Is he capable of saving us? Is he capable of getting us all the way from the lost state up to full and complete and entirely clean before him? Is he capable of that?
Speaker 1:I would say that if he's the creator of the universe and the sustainer of the universe, that he's definitely capable of giving us and providing a salvation to us.
Speaker 2:And since he's worthy and capable, is he willing? And it says there that he does these things. He is the creator of the universe, he is the preeminent one, the firstborn, overall creation. So it's telling us there that Jesus is sufficient. The logical word there is sufficiency. He is sufficient. He's not only necessary for salvation, but he is sufficient. He has all the attributes and power and capabilities of taking a lost center and moving us completely over into the state of a saved person. That is just tremendous teaching. So that's the first thing that we've covered so far is that Jesus is all these things. The next one is the state of lost people, and he goes to great extent here describing the lost person in 1.13. The lost person is in the domain of darkness and a domain, there Steve, is like a kingdom. So we're in a lost person is in the kingdom of darkness, and I don't think we always think of ourselves like that.
Speaker 1:Well, he's under the authority of darkness and later on it talks about that. He overruled the authority and he put them on display. But, yeah, authority of darkness under that authority.
Speaker 2:So the lost person is not only in the domain of darkness, but 120 separated from God, in need of reconciliation. So we're in the dark, separated from God, and it gets even further 120 at war with God, needing to make peace. So Steve and we talked about when we got there. But some people think I'm not at war with God. Other people yeah. We can really tell it's the idea of we don't really see a holy and righteous being, and if we realize how much we don't want to do godly things, that's when we're at war with God and many times we don't actually see that how we once were, until we become believers.
Speaker 1:And when we become believers and we have this newness of life and we become this new creation, then we're able to look back and we go yeah, how was it war with God? And we understand it more fully.
Speaker 2:On this side of being a believer, we understand it once he's taken us out of the darkness, once he opened our eyes, moving on again, not only are we separated from God or needing peace with God because we're at war, but we're alienated against God. 121, hostile in mind. Anytime I want to do what I want to do and not what God wants to do, then I'm arguing against God, I'm hostile against him. We are engaged in evil deeds. 213, we are dead in sin, and that is a dark, evil picture of the state of the lost person. And he makes it completely crystal clear there's no good in us at all. There's not one drop of goodness in any of us in our lost, natural state. What is our answer here?
Speaker 1:obviously, Well, our answer is is that in order to not be in this state is to become a believer in Jesus Christ. And you know we're talking about hostile and alienated. And while some people say I'm a good person, I'm not against God, I just don't care for God. I have actually heard some of the skeptics or scoffers say well, you know, if you provide me with something as proof that there actually is a creator or God, okay, but I'm not going to worship him. Well, that is a downright, outright hostile towards God, doesn't want to worship God. So there are that aspects of it where there are some people that are just playing out and out. They don't want to have anything to do with God. Those are the easy ones to be able to parse out.
Speaker 2:If people really wanted godly things, they'd be inside the church. If they were really interested in godly things and godly people and being around God, they'd be inside the church. The fact that they don't care about these things means all these things are true, they're in the dark, they're hostile towards God, they're not at peace with God, all these things. So, moving on, the next thing I want to do is okay, we've said Jesus is capable and we've described lost people. The next thing is it goes to great lengths describing this grand and great and tremendous move of what happens to the saved person, the person that is in this lost state that then becomes right with God.
Speaker 1:Colossians says that Jesus has transferred us from that dark to the light. So here we are, now we're over into that light area, or the saved area.
Speaker 2:And there's a big double handful of things here that describes the person that is in a right relationship with God. We would call it salvation in another place or a saved state. So what is a saved state? These are people, again, that have been made right with God. 112 qualified us to share in the inheritance. Even just that, steve qualified us to share in the inheritance. And since our father is now the king, then we're inheriting a royal inheritance. He qualified us. We didn't make ourselves qualified. He qualified us to share in the inheritance of a king.
Speaker 2:And then, moving on, 113, he rescued us from the domain of darkness. We couldn't get ourselves out. We needed rescuing. 113, again transferred to the kingdom of Jesus. 114, he redeemed us. That's the exchange that's made.
Speaker 2:114 again he forgave our sins. 120 he reconciled us to him, and reconciliation is this idea that the parties were at war and they needed to be made peace again. That was one of the themes he makes here. 120 made peace. 122 reconciled to him. He mentions for the second time 122 presented before God, and I submit that is one of the most profound things If all we had was Colossians 122, where it says he made us presentable before him. He made us presentable before him, then that is just a tremendous, tremendous movement from the lost state. We were unclean. He cleaned us up and made us presentable before him. And on and on and on. 210, he makes us complete. 213 circumcised our old, dirty flesh away from us. He raised us up from the dead and made us alive. He forgave our transgressions, he canceled our debt and nailed it to the cross. And, steve, I just overwhelmed with all of the tremendous things that it says that we are in Christ.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and there in verse 122, it says that he were made presented us as holy, blameless and beyond reproach. That is something that is great If we can just get it in our mind that we are presented that way to a holy God.
Speaker 2:That last list was what we are. We were lost. Now we are saved, and in a saved state. The next list that he's given throughout this section and we'll have another slide for that that says okay, now what can we do? What are the benefits now that we are reconciled? What are the benefits that we have, for example, 1-4, love for the saints. 1-5, we have hope in heaven. 1-6, we bring forth fruit in our lives because of the power of the Holy Spirit. We can know the grace of God, we have love in the spirit, we're filled with the knowledge of God's will All of these wonderful benefits. We have wisdom and understanding. Now I think back, steve, before I was saved and I was so lost, so confused, I didn't really the world just really didn't kind of make sense and I was just living in this world of self and self-focus. But now, once I've saved, there's this treasure trove of wisdom and eternal understanding that's open to you. It really is the opening of the eyes, don't you think?
Speaker 1:I, absolutely I do, and I know that, just like you, I've experienced it. It is a tremendous opening of the eyes and the richness, being able to understand and look at these things that Paul are talking about here. It's a little bit overwhelming. Look at all the great things. Many times I think we just want to think of oh yeah, I'm saved and I have eternal life. We have so so much more that's being listed here in the items that you're going over.
Speaker 2:Just stop for a second. We'll ask a question about just one of these. In Colossians 1.23 it says, quote we are firmly established and steadfast, not moved away. That's what it says Firmly established and steadfast, not moved away. So the Christian that wants to stay in Christ, but I know I'm weak, what does he say that I am, even though I feel like I'm weak, what does he declare of me? I am firmly established, steadfast, not moved. Is it because of my strength that I'm that? No, no, it's because he made me in his sight, not how I feel. He made me unmoved, firmly established, steadfast. I can take comfort in that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and Paul, through all of this he's very clear to make sure that all of this was done by Christ. It's all on the work of Christ, it's all on the part of God. It's none of it has to do with any of us. It's all these things that he has done. I think of the verse that says what greater gesture is there than for somebody, a man, to lay down the life for another and to think of Christ? That's going to do that on our behalf shows the love that he has for us. You just can't put that sometimes into words and it's just hard to sometimes to comprehend.
Speaker 2:So that's all that. What was covered up to now, it's this tremendous treasure trove of doctrine. So at this point, what I want to do is, once we've summarized all those things all those things, steve, are these doctrine, this theology that is presented to us here in Colossians I want to stop for a minute and kind of deal with a couple of issues that are taught by different churches, that I think all of this long list of things we did kind of rubs against some of these doctrines, and the first one I want to talk about is this idea of purgatory.
Speaker 2:Roman Catholic Church and I believe there's some others, have this concept of purgatory, and purgatory, according to their teaching, is the state that's in between Earth and heaven. The idea here is that there's some things that need to be purged out, hence the name purgatory. The official Roman Catholic Catechism calls purgatory a purification so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven, and it's for those who are imperfectly purified, at the point of natural death. And purgatory is supposed to be this purging of things that are left over in the life, that need to be purged out or purified before you get to heaven, and as, according to the definition, it would be for people that are in a state of grace. They're going to heaven, but there's still some leftover, either temporal aspects of sin or some leftover uncleanness because of sin, and those things have to be burned away or purged away. That's the definition of purgatory.
Speaker 2:If we hold that up against all of this teaching that we just had in Colossians it was a long list that we just went over then we have to have a idea here that many of these things are not as Paul said. They were not as God said. They were in order for purgatory to work. Because purgatory is described as this cleansing fire for people that need cleaning. It's described as painful, it's some sort of a suffering process. It's necessary for people that have any sin in our lives and the justification is heaven is a place where no uncleanness is, and we know we're unclean in here, so we have to be purged out. Our response.
Speaker 1:Before I get into mine any thoughts, steve, before I jump into some of how these passages deal with this Let me interject this so that our listeners, our audience, can be thinking about this idea as you continue on in what you're talking about here. This is the God's plan of salvation. All these things that Paul is talking about here in Colossians and it's not just here, it's in his other epistles, and it's not just him, it's the Gospels, it's also in Peter and his epistles James. It's God's plan of salvation. Paul can't be any more clear.
Speaker 1:This is everything that we get by being in Christ. So, once we become in Christ, here's everything we get and there's nothing to be added to it. If a false teacher comes along and says, yes, you're in Christ, but you have to do this, or but you have additional things that you're going to have to do, there is no but Bringing this home before you begin again, additional things to believe in Jesus Christ by saying but-, then we need to evaluate our faith. Have we truly placed our faith in Christ or not? And I think that if we say, yes, my faith is in Christ, but we need to just we didn't take a step back and say, wait a minute have I really truly put my faith in Christ?
Speaker 2:And that's really it. Have I put my faith in Christ? What I want to do now is to go back through some of these passages that we just covered, put myself in a position of what would I have to say if I was trying to defend the doctrine of purgatory. If I was trying to defend the doctrine of purgatory, how would I deal with these passages in the book of Colossians that deal with the state of the believers at Colossae? That Paul said had already happened? So our listeners, please don't misunderstand, I'm gonna half defend a position that I don't hold here, but this is what I would have to say in order to defend purgatory. Again, if we look here at Colossians, 112, says we are qualified for an inheritance, you'd have to say, well, yeah, but you're not really fully qualified. Even though it said I'm qualified, you're not qualified. Qualified because you still have to have some things burned up. You're not qualified. That's the point of purgatory. You're not qualified to get into heaven yet. So you have to say no, you're not qualified, you're at least. You're not fully qualified. You've fudged on the idea of qualification.
Speaker 2:Next one is we are rescued from the domain of darkness. And it says in there he rescued us from darkness and you'd have to say well, he got us kind of out of the darkness, but he didn't really get us fully in there. I still have to have some things burned up. And everything on this list is like that 113 transferred us to the kingdom of Jesus. Well, it says I know that we're already transferred that's what the verb tense said but we're not yet really transferred because we still have some sin in our life and I can't be transferred until I get these things burned out of my life and then redeemed us. Well, I know it says we're redeemed, but we're not yet redeemed until I have some purification done. It says we're reconciled to him 120 and 122, but I'm not really reconciled until I have these things removed out of my life. And boy, it's going to be painful because he didn't quite reconcile me completely. He reconciled me, but he didn't reconcile me. And then he forgave our sins. Yeah, I know it says he forgave our sins, but they're not really all forgiven yet because there's still some hanging around that have to get purged up. You see what you have to do. You have to go through this entire list. Made peace with him? No, he didn't really make peace.
Speaker 2:Look at Colossians 122. If all you had was Colossians 122, colossians 122 says that he made us presentable before God as holy, blameless and beyond reproach. And in order for purgatory to work, you'd have to say I know it says that he made us holy, blameless and beyond reproach. But we're not really holy, we're not really blameless and we still have reproach that has to be burned up because he didn't quite get me there fully and I still have to go through this burning process. That's going to hurt like I'll get out, because that's what people say, my Catholic friends. It cuts against every one of these. There's about 16 of these and you have to qualify, you have to hedge, you have to equivocate on all of them, not just one.
Speaker 2:This isn't just one passage in Corinthians that talks about okay, gold, silver, precious stone, wood, hay stubble which, by the way, read the context talks about burning up our works that were done in the past not me and purifying me. It's talking about my works getting lost. All of these things are talking about what I am. I have made peace with him, I am reconciled, I am beyond reproach. So it gets down to what you're saying, Steve. Do we believe that we're beyond reproach or not. Do we believe that he declared me holy or am I hanging on to something that I feel inside of me? And I submit he declared me holy, blameless and beyond reproach? Why Not because of anything in me it's because I'm in Christ.
Speaker 1:I know the evidence that you're talking about, glenn, here is purgatory and related to the Catholic doctrine of purgatory. However, it also extends into the evangelical realm. Once again, if anybody comes and says, yeah, it says that you have this. But in my opinion, you need to stop them right there and say no, there is no.
Speaker 2:But Paul says it's very clear that the doctrine is here Now move on to the next one, which is a totally different doctrine, so we'll change the channel here for a second. There's a concept in the Bible called the Great Tribulation Period. Great Tribulation Period is the pouring out of God's wrath on the lost world. It's described as the great and terrible day of the Lord. It's where God judges the earth. There's different views of the tribulation, but where I want to get into is not so much when the tribulation is, but whether or not Christians will go through the tribulation, because the same answer dealt with purgatory is going to deal with whether Christians go through tribulation period. Because there's, for example, some people are called preterist or partial preterist. They believe the tribulation happened in the first century, 70 AD. There's some Christians that are a millennialist, which means we're living in the time now of the millennium, and there's some people that believe the tribulation is going to happen at the end of the age. Regardless of that, it's a biblical problem with 16 or 18 places in Colossians when you say that Christians have to go through the tribulation. Again back to the same list. It says he qualified us for an inheritance, rescued us from the domain of darkness, transferred us to the kingdom of Jesus, redeemed us for gabbersons, reconciled to him, made peace with us, presented us before himself as holy, blameless and beyond reproach, but you're still gonna have to get God's wrath poured out on you. What, what? You've got to be kidding me, whether or not you believe in preterism, that it happened in the past, or whether it's happening now, or whether it's a future seven-year period, like you and I would. If we have to go through the tribulation, by definition it's pouring out the wrath. Okay, I get it.
Speaker 2:There's people out there that would say, okay, show me where the rapture happens. I've turned that table right back on those critics and say show me where. It says there's this bubble that says, oh yeah, there's all this horrendous things in the book of Revelation that's going to get poured out on the earth, but this one house is going to get totally destroyed by the angel of death, but the guy next to him is going to have enough food, water, clothing, the weather is not going to be bad, his house is not going to burn up. Where does it say that All I see is the pouring out of God's wrath on all the earth? That's what it says.
Speaker 2:And if you're going to say that Christians go through the tribulation you have to go through and explain all of these things, and Colossians and say, well, yeah, okay, we're qualified for an inheritance, but we're still going to be judged by God. We've been rescued from the domain of darkness but we still have to go through this judgment of God, this horrible. We've been transferred into the kingdom, we're child of the King, we've got this inheritance, we've made peace with him, but he's still going to have us go through the punishment of God. That is totally, entirely, thoroughly, against everything in Colossians. So comments on that, steve. I've got one or two other little things before the end.
Speaker 1:I think that this has been laid on our heart going through Colossians, because Paul has just made it very, very clear that all the work is done by Christ, and he's addressing the false teachers that have come in and said no, no, no, there's additional things you have to do. We just don't see any additional things that through Paul's teaching here in Colossians.
Speaker 2:Third thing, different doctrine entirely. That's addressed by all these passages in Colossians. There's people out there in different churches that teach that it's not faith alone, but it's at the point of obedience and you have to do something. There's either, before you get full and complete and entire forgiveness, something has to be done. You either have to obey in baptism or you have to go through some action. You have to do some penance, you have to do something in order for this to be cleansed from you. And I submit the same list.
Speaker 2:If you're going to say that faith is not enough and I have to do something, then okay, it says you're qualified for an inheritance, but you're not really until you obey. It says you've been rescued from the domain of darkness and transferred and redeemed and forgiven and reconciled and made peace and that you're holy and blameless. But no, you have to do something first. No, we're in here. Does it say that? No, we're in here.
Speaker 2:Does it say or anywhere else for that matter in scripture, that these things have to be obeyed? That is the point of obedience and we even went through that when we talked about baptism. That's usually the place where they put it is going through some sort of baptism or some sort of church sacrament or rite that we have to go through. None of these things require that. He said in 2, 11, 12, 13 that we're baptized because of faith and that we are considered holy, blameless and beyond reproach because of him. And the last thing, steve, I'd have with all of this is one that you brought up earlier in one of the sessions, which is people say, okay, yeah, all these things are done, but look at all that it can't be that easy. So they say I still know what goes on inside my heart and inside my mind. There's still sin in there. I still feel unqualified, I still feel in the dark, I still feel like I'm apart from God. So is it based on how I feel or is it based on what has God has?
Speaker 1:declared to be so, and that's the question. That's why we keep coming back to whether you're in Christ or you're not in Christ, because when you're in Christ, it solves all of these questions. And, look, we hope that this is going to be a lifting of burden on many people that have been taught these doctrines that there's additional things that you have to do.
Speaker 1:I have talked with many people through the years and when you ask them, do you know whether or not you're going to heaven? Do you know where you're going to go when you're die? And they'll say, even expressing that, yes, I believe in Jesus Christ? And you ask them that stuff, well, do you know you're going to heaven? And they'll say I hope so. Well, wait a minute. If you believe in Jesus Christ, why would you say you hope you're going to go to heaven? And then, of course, you get into these. But well, I need to do this, or I don't feel like, or we hope that this is going to be lifting of a burden off of many, many people, because this is something that we're going directly off of what Paul was teaching here in Colossians to go against some of the specific false doctrines that were coming in. But we can see that even in modern times there's still other doctrines that are out there that just want to take it away that everything that Christ has done and the plan of salvation that God has.
Speaker 2:So we should indeed trust God in what he says. The work is complete and all we do is trust him, and that's really what it goes down to. He has declared us clean and praise God for that, so we'll be stopping there. Today, we have gotten to a great spot in Colossians, and next time we'll continue on with more great things and we'll be reasoning through the Bible, next time when we trust that you'll be here with us to do so as well.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much for watching and listening. Thank God bless you.