384. Sober From Sin With Jeff Fields

What if the key to overcoming life's toughest battles lies in embracing grace and vulnerability? In this powerful episode, we are joined by Jeff Fields, a former law enforcement officer and recovering alcoholic, as he shares his extraordinary journey from addiction to redemption. Jeff opens up about his new book, "Sober from Sin," and how his faith guided him through the darkest times of his life, offering a beacon of hope for anyone facing similar struggles.

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Transcript

Chris Grainger: 1:46

Welcome to the Lion Within Us, a podcast serving Christian men who are hungry to be the leaders God intends you to be. I'm your host, chris Granger. Let's jump in. All right, guys, it is your meat episode and I am excited to be here with you today. So let's get right into it.

Chris Grainger: 1:59

So Scripture of the Week this week is in the book of Ephesians, chapter 2, just one verse though, verse 8,. It says For it's by grace. You have been saved Through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is a gift from God. So, fellas, we're going to really unpack that idea of grace today as well, but also in the spiritual kickoff episode. Go back and listen to that, because if you struggle with the idea of grace, I really tried to give you some insight on how you can maybe have a better view of what that is Okay, and I'm just going to go ahead and warn you for today's episode.

Chris Grainger: 2:31

This is a heavy one. This is hard stuff. So we brought in a friend of mine. His name is Jeff Fields. He's going to talk about his new book, sober from Sin.

Chris Grainger: 2:38

So Jeff was former law enforcement and his story, I should say it's hard hitting OK. As a law enforcement veteran and a recovering alcoholic. He really leaned in when he wrote this book. And he's not just talking about you know three steps here or two ways to a better you here. No, he's being real, he's being open. He's being vulnerable, being open, he's being vulnerable, he's being very transparent about what it looks like to be in law enforcement and to face the battle of addiction of alcohol. He had a lot of things that happened in his professional career. There was lots of complexities because of the different roles he had. He went from standard law enforcement to federal law enforcement. He just talks about all this and how he was able to surround himself with the right people and the right training and the right support to break through. So he breaks down some stigmas. He really talks about the family environment and what that looks like.

Chris Grainger: 3:46

So I'm telling you guys, this is one that's important. If you have friends that are in law enforcement, this is one you want to share out. I'll go ahead and tell you that right now this is one you want to share out to them. Okay, his book Sorrow from Sin is now available, because this is basically his memoir of detailing his whole journey, from the very all the way back to childhood trauma to the struggles with addiction to now. Okay. So, guys, you're going to want to pick this one up, you're going to want to share this one out. He is local to where, where I'm at as well. He lives in North Carolina. So he has a wife, he has a daughter and we find out on this episode, he has a daughter on the way. So hopefully by later this year he'll have two little girls at the house making him pull all his hair out but, at the same time, loving every minute of it. So, guys, hopefully enjoy this conversation with my friend, jeff Fields. Well, jeff, welcome to the Lion Within Us. How are you doing today, my friend?

Jeff Fields: 4:46

Doing well. Thanks for having me on, man, I'm so excited to have you here, buddy.

Chris Grainger: 4:50

So I mean, let's get before we kind of dive deep into what we talk about today, Give us a little fun fact, something about you that not many people know, Something about Jeff man.

Jeff Fields: 5:02

Something about me, well, and this may go along with why I am the way that I am from my past, but I am a clean freak. I'm a clean freak, yeah. Yeah. I am not necessarily a germ germaphobe, but to. It's unfortunate for my daughter and my wife, because my wife calls me danny tanner, you know I'm behind her with the, with the vacuum, everywhere all the time. But that is me. I like to keep the house clean.

Chris Grainger: 5:33

Man, you need to come live with us for a few weeks. Maybe you can clean things up around here. Hopefully my wife's not listening to this one. Anyway. Well, brother, I'm just excited to have you here. I know this is a heavy topic. You're a brand new author. Maybe, before we even get into the book itself, talk to us about that. What was it like being a new author, writing a book for your first time?

Jeff Fields: 6:09

on writing a book for I don't know six, seven years, and so I'd always constantly been taking notes in my phone or writing it down somewhere, and so I had all of these cool facts and information I wanted to put out there. But when I sat down to put pen to paper, I couldn't remember any of it. I couldn't find where I had stashed it, you know. And then, fortunately, I had a gentleman help me out. He lives out in Alabama, he's authored six books, he was in law enforcement also. He walked me through the process, kind of put you know a little bit of a flame under me to be like, hey, you got to get it done, so so, which helped me a lot.

Jeff Fields: 6:48

But what I found is and this is driving me to want to write more books because I enjoyed it it was very therapeutic, especially for um, you know, a trauma guy, right. So I tried to squeeze in as much of that information as I could. Towards the end of the book I'm like I've got to get it in. And got to get it in, and he rang me back and said, hey, man, you don't have to get it in, it can go in another book. And so then I'm like, okay, all right. So now I'm itching to write another book. You know whether, whether or not the first one does well or not, it doesn't matter. I got to get that information out there because, again, it's therapeutic.

Jeff Fields: 7:24

You know it feels good.

Chris Grainger: 7:26

Amen, I mean give us some insight. So I mean, first of all, let's get technical what software are you using to write it with? And then when's your best time to write? I'd just love to pick the author's brain.

Jeff Fields: 7:37

So I mean, I just use the general word. Okay.

Jeff Fields: 7:41

And then working with this guy. He had me working with the Google shared drive stuff, which I hate, right, but typically you work offline and then upload it. And when we were doing it that way and this is great for somebody who's working it and having somebody check in behind him, right, right Using that shared drive so they can come in behind and read a chapter at a time instead of trying to read the whole book all at once at the end, and so I would get up in the morning Typically. I'm real big about my prayer meditation time in the morning. We'll probably talk about that but when I would get done is when I felt the most inspirational and I would sit there and write for maybe about an hour.

Jeff Fields: 8:25

Now, it wasn't perfect. I would often go a couple of weeks without writing and then there'd be weeks where I couldn't stop writing. You know, I'd have my wife have to yell me to come in and eat dinner, but I guess there was no good time unless I was clear-minded, you know, and a lot of time at 9 o'clock at night I'll be laying in bed. I'm like man, I should be writing, but I would. I would never allow myself to do that, cause it'd keep me up all night.

Chris Grainger: 8:54

Yeah, but I mean the long the long of it is is probably the morning, the morning. Well, man, this is. It's a, like I said it's when I, before we started, I told you you know I enjoyed reading it, but it was a heavy read for sure. This is very transparent, very open, so maybe just give the listeners out there just popping in today they see us when we talk about sober from sin, so maybe give them an overview of your story and let's start unpacking your journey together.

Jeff Fields: 9:19

Okay, so I spent the last 22 years in law enforcement. I got into law enforcement probably because the influence from my father. He was in law enforcement and I had some other family members. So, with that said, I went about my career. I did well. But towards the end of my career I started having a lot of issues. I started to drink in order to self-soothe, to try to make myself feel better. I couldn't figure out why I was doing this. Now I'd always been a heavy drinker my whole life, and when I say heavy drinker I'm a binge drinker.

Jeff Fields: 10:02

So you know, I'd go out and have drinks with friends, but then I was the guy that was drinking a little bit more. Or I'd get home and I'd drink even more by myself. And so they say a lot of therapists will tell you, when you get married and you start getting comfortable and you feel safe in your environment is when a lot of flashback memories may come back. You know why are you the way that you are?

Jeff Fields: 10:31

A big theme in my book is cause and effect, and so as I started learning more about the cause and effect in my life on the psychological viewpoint of it I started becoming really interested. I was like, holy cow, I've got some baggage to unpack and I don't know how to unpack it. Now you think that that would be perfect and I'd start wrapping it up from there. No, because the more baggage that I started to unpack, the more painful it became for me. And then so I started drinking more and more and more. I was just never had the tools to, you know, put it to rest, I should say Um, so my drinking turned into an addiction.

Jeff Fields: 11:14

Okay, Um it's about a seven year addiction.

Jeff Fields: 11:17

It started um more so when we moved up. We were in the Washington DC area. My wife and I we spent six years up there. I always tell people we were up there five years too long, so it was one year's enough, Um, and so that's when it really started hitting heavy. Um, and in that time up there, seeing a couple of therapists that I really trusted, that that uh ended up talking to me, like when I said talking to me, like talking to me.

Jeff Fields: 11:47

Um is when I started to discover that a lot of these flashbacks I was telling you about in my comfort zone were coming back because I was having nightmares, couldn't figure out why, what these nightmares meant. Um, a lot of the times they dealt with me at night, running back to my room, to my bed, from something. I didn't know what it was. Yeah, so the cause and effect of it's. Really trying to examine it, I started to discover, well, hey, I have some childhood trauma, and the trauma started to look more and more like I was probably sexually abused. And then, the further I got and the deeper I would delve into it, it started to explain a lot of my behaviors in my early adult life, and so it really started to make sense to me. And then, all of a sudden, it starts flooding out. I start really getting a good idea of what had happened.

Jeff Fields: 12:43

So, with that said, my law enforcement career didn't really help with all of this, because law enforcement itself has trauma in it and it's not a great career to go and say, hey, talk to your buddies like, hey, I think, I think I was sexually abused as a kid. You know, you don't do it, it's a very alpha career. I was sexually abused as a kid, you don't do it, it's a very alpha career. And plus you've got a lot of management that's more so worried about. Hey, get the job done. Where are you today? There's not a lot of care and compassion there. Sure.

Jeff Fields: 13:23

And so I started really thinking to myself well, man, I'm in the wrong career. I think I actually had a therapist tell, tell me that. And it made me angry at first, because that's all I knew, um, I'm not smart enough to do anything else. And and he said you know, you may be in the wrong career. And I said well, I think you're wrong. Um, but as I started getting closer towards the end of my career, I started to realize well, man, he was right.

Jeff Fields: 13:48

This is just not any good for me, because my priorities had always been messed up. I had always looked at my career, first my family, and then God, and then, towards the end, when I started to really try to work on myself, my priorities started to change. I started to put God first, then my family and then my career. But when I started to do that, I really started to lean into what God may have been telling me. I didn't know what it was. I knew something was there. I started to really lose the love for my career and it really started to be okay Like, hey, you know what, it's all right if I don't have this career anymore, and so towards the end there take it or leave it I was like I don't care.

Jeff Fields: 14:36

You know, I will submit to God, I will listen to you now. And when I did that, there was a wash of freedom over me. Now I'm saying this like it was easy and perfect. It was ugly. There was failure, relapses over and over. I had been to rehab twice um been to the hospital several times.

Jeff Fields: 14:58

you know Um and so um. In the end, having conversations with my wife, I talk about my book. I've had two neck surgeries. I've got spinal stenosis. They had to fix it up and every time it never healed right Cause I was always drunk the next day after surgery. I didn't care. You know, that was my medicine. Yeah.

Jeff Fields: 15:23

And so it became harder and harder for me to do my job too, because I mean just sitting at a desk or holding a rifle or, uh gosh, if I got in a fight at work, god forbid, I got in a fight at work and somebody put me a headlock, you know, I probably could be paralyzed. Hang it up, I'm going to hang it up, I'm done. I got to do what's right for me. Um and it it sucked. But towards the end there, man, I was like you know what. I think I've made the right decision. And even today I'm still. You know, I'm still coming up that hill. Even today, I'm like man. I am so fortunate that I found where I need to be. Yeah.

Jeff Fields: 16:03

But I don't know where it is. You know exactly where I'm going.

Chris Grainger: 16:06

Sure, I mean you have a new identity, right, I mean the new. You get the priorities back in alignment the right way with God, family and the rest, and so many guys they think that they really identify with who they are as a as for your case, a lawman, right, yep, so yeah.

Jeff Fields: 16:25

Yeah, and I touch on that a lot in my book. I, for the longest time I felt that my identity was through my career, my identities through making my family happy. That's what it was.

Chris Grainger: 16:38

You know, I played baseball in college.

Jeff Fields: 16:39

Well, that was to make my family happy. I mean, I love baseball, don't get me wrong. But it got to the point where I lost the love, um, and if I didn't do well enough, well you know I'm disappointing somebody. So all that does is I beat myself up, because of sure. Well then I'm like what's the next thing that I can do to please my family? Well, I'll do my law enforcement. That seems to be honorable. Ever, you know it's. It's treated my family well, and so I do that. Well, I didn't really love it.

Jeff Fields: 17:07

And because of the childhood trauma stuff, there comes all of these great I say great sarcastically a lot of great additives to it. Right, adhd. You know I can't sit. Still, I've got to do all these activities in order to make myself feel good. I talked, you know I joked about at the beginning, you know, being clean all the time. Well, I'd have to clean. You know, I got to feel useful, yes, and if I don't feel useful, I beat myself up. And it all comes down to those dopamine hits. What gives me those hits of dopamine If I'm not drinking alcohol? I got to find something else. So it's a very precarious time, especially after I stopped drinking. I've been sober for about two years. I still struggle with trying to find, um yeah, like a medium ground on what I should be doing. Like I drink coffee way too much you know, that.

Jeff Fields: 18:08

That that is that is filling in the dopamine I I work myself to death during the week, um, with physical activity. Well, I got to do that for those dopamine highs. You know, like a lot of men do, I've struggled with pornography, you know, sometimes I got to get that in order to get my dopamine high. So that's where God comes in for me, right, just really sitting down and, and I've become so, um, religious about making that my um, uh, priority every morning and throughout the day, um, and as long as I'm doing that and asking for a little bit of peace, a little bit of calm, I get that. But, man, this is what I struggle with now and it's okay, I've told myself it's okay If I mess up that prayer meditation throughout the day, or if I drift a little bit, I beat myself up and the day sucks.

Jeff Fields: 19:07

Well, right now I'm working on, hey, it's okay. It's okay If it wasn't perfect, it's okay If I'm not going to be, um, the man I was supposed to be for the day, um, and so that's where I struggle and and, and it's okay, it's all right. You know, they teach you in in a lot, in a lot of drinking programs a day at a time right, and that's exactly what I have to look at each day as structured and had a plan and what I'm going to do next and where I'm going to go, and all this stuff that's out the window. I don't know what in the heck I'm going to do now. Right.

Jeff Fields: 20:00

You know, I wrote a book and I'm like well, what now? You know, yeah, yeah.

Chris Grainger: 20:05

Well, I mean, a little grace goes a long way, for sure, and I think most guys struggle with that giving ourselves some grace. So we're going to take our first break, jeff. We'll be right back. Guys, if you're a man who's looking for greater spiritual guidance into how to become a better leader, finding resources that you can trust and then implement can be daunting For me personally.

Chris Grainger: 20:30

I thought it was a lost cause and I decided to take the action, knowing that I wasn't alone. It was because of this wide gap that we created our Lion Within Us community, and the areas that we're helping Christian men grow are incredible. For instance, we've built ways for guys to lean in and grow through fun events like our daily spiritual kickoff, where you get that much needed boost directly from God's word, our Bible studies that always focus on how to discern and apply what we learn, and even our amazing form where you can speak your mind without fear of getting shut down or judged by the extreme rules of modern day social media. On top of all that, we know that many men won't help overcoming issues and becoming stronger in many different areas. That's why we created several mastermind groups, where the iron truly sharpens the iron.

Chris Grainger: 21:20

Our community is about having a growth mindset, accountability, intentionality and transparency. In other words, just leave fake you at home and come to community just as you are. I fully believe what we've built. I see the impact it's making on men right now and I would love to have you check it out. So start your very own 30 day free trial today to see how we can help you be a better leader. So if you're ready to take that first step, head over to thelinewithinus and get started. Your journey begins here. Visit thelinewithinus and I'll see you inside with them. I'm curious man. You mentioned several times this is something that most guys feel like they can't talk about and they never want to talk about it, so they suppress it.

Chris Grainger: 22:06

much like in your book you talked about is the childhood trauma and and maybe you know you don't have to go through through detail, but give some guys some insight, because I feel like there's so many guys who, uh, you know this is something, this is an area of their life. They just want to bury it and just hope it never surfaces again, right, I mean? It sounds like through the therapy and through the different types of counseling that you've gone through, you've recognized the need to address that hit all.

Jeff Fields: 22:36

Yeah, absolutely, I think. Well, first off, I think childhood trauma, sexual trauma, for men is grossly underreported and it's because men don't talk about it. Um, as a matter of fact, when I was doing research for my book, I was trying to look up statistics. They can't get good statistics because men don't first off report.

Jeff Fields: 22:58

but also you have a lot of uh clinicians out there that are jaded towards the issue where they may say, hey, um, it may be a misunderstood, uh, event, that had happened, um, which would tick it, ticks me off. But I think men, like I said before, most men are alpha males and and you don't want to talk about it, because we're supposed to be the rock, the support and the family, but yet when you have this thing, that's so, um, you know, and you don't want to talk about it because we're supposed to be the rock, the support and the family, but yet when you have this thing that's so you know, fragile and so it shows a sign of weakness.

Jeff Fields: 23:37

Sure, I don't want to talk about it and that's a lot of my story, and I pray that a lot of men start to realize that, hey, it's OK to be weak, because when the weakness is where you found your strength, you know you're never going to grow when you're on top of the hill. We, you know. A lot of people say that it is the truth. You know it's in the valleys that you, you actually grow. And so I think, by examining my behavior through college, you know my early in my career um with women and the way I objectified women.

Jeff Fields: 24:12

Um, which stunk cause in law enforcement, a lot of the men objectify women, right, and so, um, I was in good company. So it was never good. It was never a good place for me to examine um myself and say, hey, well, it's not normal, it's not right, it's not honoring God. So when I sat down and really examined myself and said, hey, why do I look at women this way, or why did I behave this way throughout college, early in my career I started to see, well, hey, there's some patterns to it and not all of it's normal.

Jeff Fields: 24:55

Certain fetishes men may have they call it the sexual template a therapist told me and it was the best way to put it for me because he was like your sexual template is A, b and C. Now, like, let's really look at why you have these feelings or these urges towards these things. And from there I kind of was able to reflect on well, hey, it may have been because of this early on in my childhood. And then I was able to start breaking that down, like, well, hey, that's not normal. Um, I need to find a different outlet or pray about it, and that you know, I, I, I need to really hit on the fact that none of this is possible unless you're in a safe place. Sure, you know, if in a good marriage, if you're not in a good marriage, you need to find a good community to surround you, because as long as you're in a position of vulnerability, you're not going to grow any, or you're definitely not going to talk about it unless you know that you're safe. Sure.

Jeff Fields: 26:03

And so my wife has been a huge rock in my relationship. She knows everything. She hasn't read the book. She knows a lot about the book. I doubt she will read the books. It's very painful for her right now.

Jeff Fields: 26:24

But with that said, though, if I didn't have her, I probably, like I said, like a therapist once told me I'd probably be dead in a ditch right now, and so I don't know if that answered your question. As far as childhood trauma and I mean it's okay and it's happened more than you think, and my wife has educated herself so much on it, and some of the features that show up in men now as adults because of childhood trauma, once you learn enough about it, you see it, that show up in men now as adults because of childhood trauma, once you learn enough about it, you see it, you see it all the time.

Jeff Fields: 26:52

We, we, we sometimes look at men, we look at our neighbors or whatever, and we're like he does that and it makes me wonder if something happened to him in his past, and a lot of it's very accurate. I mean, there's a really good book that Dr Patrick Carnes wrote, you know. Look it up, it's a. It's a great book. It really talks about a lot of the symptoms for a lack of a better term that people get from from some type of child abuse, and that that is. That was a big guide for me moving forward. Now, I'm not a big victimhood guy. You're not going to get anywhere playing the victim your whole life, and that's where I draw the line. Now, what happened happened, it's done. I've forgiven these people, whether they know it or not, but, most importantly, I've forgiven myself, and so from there I can grow. I'm not going to sit and say, well, this happened to me and this is the way that I am.

Chris Grainger: 27:59

Well, yeah, it is what it is, I got to move on. I got to move on. If not, I'm going to be, you know, drinking. So I mean the forgiving yourself part. I'm just curious what did that look like for you? How did you get to that point where you forgave yourself?

Jeff Fields: 28:09

Oh, I mean, it's something I still struggle with and, like I said, a day at a time, just forgiving myself, and I think the hardest thing for me to wrap my head around was well, why do I have to forgive myself if I was the victim?

Chris Grainger: 28:23

Exactly. That's probably what a lot of guys are thinking right now, so walk them through that mental exercise.

Jeff Fields: 28:29

So the way that I look at it is you forgive yourself for the way that you treated yourself, for not knowing how to cope with it, because if you ended up drinking or cheating on your wife or doing something really bad, that's what you got to forgive yourself for, because you didn't have the tools, you didn't understand why you did what you did. So forgive yourself for that, because you know what. You did the best you could with the information that you had. And so now it's time to move on. It's time to educate yourself. It's time to feel good about yourself. Now confidence, to feel good about yourself Now confidence is out the window. I mean, that's something I'll struggle with probably my whole life, but that's okay. That's okay. That's part of the forgiving yourself.

Jeff Fields: 29:16

You know, I used to be a great speaker. It's a good example. I used to be a great speaker in my career. I used to go out and give presentations about, you know, different crimes and prevention and awareness. Once I came to this point of vulnerability where I am now, I can't. It's really hard for me and I'm like, well, you know what? That's okay, because I'm talking about something that's coming from my heart. Finally, right, and I don't know how to do it, because I've never done it, and so that's okay. Let's move forward, because I'm hoping, by me showing vulnerability and weakness as a man, that other men will see well, hey, it's okay, right, right, it's okay, I'm still alive. I haven't blown up. You know, there's nothing bad's happened to me 100%.

Chris Grainger: 30:03

Well, I'm curious too. I mean, kind of just walking along your journey with you, talk about your addiction, and lots of guys when they think about alcohol, they just think about well, I'm not an alcoholic, or you don't think about the word addiction too often with alcohol. So pull those together for me. What did that addiction look like? I mean, obviously I've read a lot of your book, but just unpack it for our listeners. I haven't read the book yet.

Jeff Fields: 30:31

So I'm, an addiction can be anything, um, and the definition of addiction is anything. You know that you um do excessively, but if it's destructive, that's when it becomes an addiction. But if it's destructive, that's when it becomes an addiction. And AA, which I'm not a big AA guy, but the principles are great. Aa was originally founded by, you know, some priests, so there's a lot of religious undertones to it, sure, but they say whatever you do, when it becomes unmanageable, then it's a problem. And so, obviously, my addiction was alcohol. Well, I'm like, well, my drinking's become unmanageable. Well, it's not just the drinking, my life had become unmanageable. So, if.

Jeff Fields: 31:23

I'm prioritizing other things like drinking over, um, you know, life, then it's a problem. Or if I'm sitting at home trying to recover from the night before, um, that's unmanageability, right there, because I can't spend time with my family and so, with me, drinking is one thing, you know, on weekends, partying or whatever it is. But when I started drinking alone, drinking and access, and then getting to the point where I had to drink in order to survive because I was dependent on alcohol, so my blood pressure would go through the roof if I stopped drinking or I would get the shakes really bad. I had to drink. So the dependence kicks in. That's definitely. I mean, you're already past the manageability side, you're on the survival side. That's why, when a lot of people go to rehab, they put you in detox until you they can regulate you know a lot of your blood pressures and and whatnot.

Jeff Fields: 32:33

Because people die, and I didn't. I didn't know this. Um, you know, I had always known that. People that are addicted to drugs. I thought, well, it's bad for them when they come off of those drugs and I I'm talking about, like you know, illicit drugs. Sure, well, it comes. I learned that alcohol is more dangerous coming off of than a lot of those drugs.

Chris Grainger: 32:56

Seriously yeah, okay.

Jeff Fields: 32:58

Yeah, and so I had spent probably three, four times at the house detoxing myself and in that that looked ugly. They're laying in bed with night sweats, um, but freezing at the same time my blood pressures up anxiety through the roof. You think you're going to die and this will go on for three, four or five hours. Um, when I did those things, that was dangerous. I could have gone into seizure, I could have died. But that was just the lack of education of it, and once I had learned, that's a bad thing.

Jeff Fields: 33:38

Believe it or not, a lot of people that are coming down from an addiction will actually drink periodically in order to just slowly land the plane. But they always say you know you need to go to a rehab or with a medical professional in order to just slowly land the plane. But they always say you know you need to go to rehab or with a medical professional in order to do it. But circling back to the fact, when you talk about addiction, it could be any addiction, and one of the worst addictions out there is to pornography, right? Sure.

Jeff Fields: 34:02

And that can be debilitating for a man, because if it becomes unmanageable and unmanageability looks like, well, hey, I don't want to be intimate with my wife anymore, or I prioritize my time on the computer over my family Well then you have an addiction Gambling, I can't make the bills this month. Well, that obviously became unmanageable for you, so it's an addiction. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Jeff Fields: 34:33

And I don't know if that answered your question directly, but I mean, and if you want to get specific, just and there's no somebody can be an alcoholic drinking two glasses of wine a night and that's it, because if they can't go a night without two glasses of wine, then it's an addiction okay and so I you know I was drinking goodness.

Jeff Fields: 35:00

I mean nearly a gallon of vodka in two days, sometimes a gallon a day. It got bad for me because my dependence had gone so high. But one of the biggest things I hate is dry January. It's just my own personal pet peeve when people say, well, hey, I'm going to do a dry January, I'm not going to drink any alcohol, I'm not going to drink any alcohol. Well, if you have to have a month to stop drinking, then you've got a problem. Right.

Jeff Fields: 35:33

You know, and what's disconcerting about it all is so many people that I know that do dry January, can only do it for a week or two. And if you can only do it for a week or two and you're like, well, I had a wedding to go to or I had, you know, my kid's birthday or whatever, well, you've got a problem, You've got a problem. And so that's where the identification comes in. And if you can identify and sometimes it takes those around you to tell you, but you got to sit down long enough and listen in order and if you're resistant to listening to them or it makes you angry, you've got a problem.

Chris Grainger: 36:13

Wow, hey guys, let's take another quick break. We'll be right back. I find it. It helps me to have a guide at times when I'm reading, studying the Bible. One way that helps me is by using devotionals to guide not only what I read, but insights into the scriptures themselves. So we were blessed to become an author on the YouVersion Bible app and we saw an immediate opportunity to help others with devotionals around the areas that we spend the most time talking about at the Lion Within Us.

Chris Grainger: 36:49

So if you enjoy the show, you may enjoy these devos as well. We have some guys that are using them as part of their small groups as well, as they're a great way to get conversations going. So to see the ones that we've created, head over to thelionwithinus slash you version, and that's Y-O-U-V-E-R-S-I-O-N to learn more. So that's the lionwithinus slash you version, to get started with your own men's devotional today. Well, jeff, you talked about identifying and you had to have the right people around you. What did that look like for you? What types of guys or obviously your wife was in your life were speaking into your life the truth that you needed to hear?

Jeff Fields: 37:37

Well, I mean, for the longest time it was just my wife. But as I started getting into recovery and working with other alcoholics, they're the ones that really help and you can lean into, because you gain the most out of somebody who's been there. We learn from hearing other people's stories. That was the whole premise behind me writing my book is you hear somebody's story and from there you build upon it, because I guarantee, with any addiction I have not met anybody yet. That doesn't say they don't hear their story in somebody else's when it comes to addiction, because it always looks the same.

Jeff Fields: 38:23

And when I started to see that myself I was like, well, holy cow, I'm not unique. I'm a unique person with not a unique problem and so I'm not special. And so when you work with another individual that has that background, it's a whole lot easier for you to relate to what they have to tell you or what you're telling them. They often say, like I have a sponsor now, and if you sponsor a guy or it, I, it could be anything, it could be a good friend that has struggles. You don't tell people what to do, you tell them what you do. Okay, because as an alcoholic I had hundreds and hundreds of people telling me what I should do, and all it did was make me angry. Okay.

Jeff Fields: 39:19

But when somebody tells me well, hey, this is what I did. And then you see, well, he, you know, he's living a good life and he seems to be happy, and and then it starts to resonate a little bit more.

Jeff Fields: 39:33

If that makes sense Because I mean, I, my wife and I went around and around and it become. It became a where I resented her when she would come out and say, well, you know, your daughter sees you passed out on the couch. That means nothing to me. When you're an active addiction, it sounds terrible. I would give my life for my daughter, but you're so clouded that it doesn't make a difference. But when I start hearing other people talk about, well, hey, yeah, my daughter saw me all the time passed out, but you know, this is what I did. And now I'm picking my daughter up from school and you know she enjoys our time together, and then I'm like, ok, well, it can be done. And you know she enjoys our time together, and then I'm like, okay, well, it can be done. So I think your community is a big, big catalyst to a lot of this. And who you surround yourself with? Like-minded people, obviously people of faith, because that was my journey.

Jeff Fields: 40:32

You know I've always been a Christ follower. I just didn't know how to have conversations with God. You know, it had to be my. I asked God to do things instead of just listening to God, and I had multiple times where I heard something I'm not saying audible, but I felt something and I should have paid attention to it and then later on, learning that that was God directing me in the direction I needed to go, 100%.

Chris Grainger: 41:10

Yeah Well, you said you're a lifelong follower of Christ. But I mean, give us a little more insight about your faith testimony, about how you come to, because at some point you know, our faith becomes who we are and our new identity, as you kind of talked about earlier. But give us some insight. You know, did you grow up going to church? You know what does that look like for you when you think about the faith over your life.

Jeff Fields: 41:36

Well, I hope this doesn't offend anybody, but I'm a recovering Catholic.

Chris Grainger: 41:41

I've had several of those on the show, brother. So you're good, You're good.

Jeff Fields: 41:43

Okay, yeah, and it's unfortunate because it's a beautiful religion, which I hate the word religion, which I hate the word religion. But Catholicism in itself really pushed my guilt and shame, something that already was there, and so it didn't help. So I grew up going to being forced to go to church and then being forced to not feel good about myself at church, because when you're there you know you need to repent and you messed up during the week where you've got to live with it now. And so I had a Mexican mother and it's not her fault, it's the way she was raised, you know, and Catholics are real big in the Mexican culture so it pushed me away from the church and so I kind of just did my own thing for I don't know almost two decades where I was in and out of churches, didn't really pay much attention to what I was doing during the week, didn't have, you know, if I had prayers, it was request, it wasn't praise. That's a big component of my life now is praise over prayer.

Jeff Fields: 43:05

And so when I met my wife, she turned me back on. She was at wit's end with my addiction and so she really wanted to push me back, that me back in the direction of Christ and you know, thank goodness she did, and it was up in the DC area. I started attending a church again, a non-denominational church, um, and that's where I really started to enjoy church again and realize, hey, it's okay, I don't have to feel guilty when I go to church, sure, and I'm like I'm meeting other people here that are actually happy to be here you know, and so, um, I try to involve myself in groups as much as I can.

Jeff Fields: 43:48

So I do things at a hundred percent, everything I do drinking, you know, working and if I'm going to get involved with church, I'm going to do it a hundred percent, and so I would involve myself with other men as much as I possibly could at the church, um, and that really brought me back to where I needed to be Now. It wasn't perfect, um, I fell away several times, um, but now today it's such a, it is the cornerstone to my livelihood Christ first, then my family, but if we don't have that element in our life, then I know that it quickly could fall back to where we were, because God is definitely responsible for everything. So one of the big parts of somebody getting clean from any type of addiction is realizing you have to rely on something bigger than yourself. You've already proven to yourself over and over that you're not responsible or powerful enough to stop what you're doing, and so that's where you start looking to God, and God's bigger than me. And why didn't he, you know, get me sober quickly? Well, because he wants you to learn how to get sober. And or why did God?

Jeff Fields: 45:08

Um, a lot of men struggle with the fact well, why did he allow me to be a childhood victim of something? Or why did he allow me to fall into addiction? Be a childhood victim of something, or why did he allow me to fall into addiction? Well, he didn't allow you to do anything. The person that may inflicted the trauma to you fell away from God and as a child you may have not, you don't have the tools to negotiate that, right. But God gives you some really good things, like disassociation, you know, as a child, where you learn how to not feel and see those things as a child to protect you. But when you get older, those things start popping back up, like I in my story. Well, now God's saying well, hey, now you need to learn the tools because I want you to be a strong man and be able to shepherd other people through your story. Right, right.

Chris Grainger: 45:57

I'm curious, along the way you know through that, to that journey, you're back in church now. You were serving, you were coming alongside other men. Did you have any guys that that you look toward to as mentors, as leaders, as elders that helped you along your discipleship? Maybe they're they're still in your life right now, potentially. I'm just curious. This is a gap for a lot of guys and I just didn't know this was something that you know, you recognized, or you know, did you? How are you sharing that up now?

Jeff Fields: 46:24

I'm, I still struggle. It's tough for men to make friends, right, yeah, especially friends with common interests. Um, I, I had a couple of men up in Virginia that I leaned on heavily. One's a pastor up there now and he was a good person to talk to, just simply because I saw somebody who was in law enforcement also left law enforcement and started working at the church and I was like, well, hey, that's okay, and started working at the church. And I was like, well, hey, that's okay, you know he's, he's he. He didn't need that cool identity because working for the church is just as cool, you know, and I just, I still struggle with that because I work at a church now I'm on staff and I struggle with that identity.

Jeff Fields: 47:10

But anyway, to go back to your question, um, I think along the way I met the right people Now, whether or not I really stuck with the relationship with them, they were there long enough to guide me and a lot of great care pastors at churches the church I go to now has one, and the one up in Virginia had a great one and they sat me down and it again, here we go. The care pastor up in Virginia was recovering alcohol and so it was divine um that I, I um met these individuals when I met them. Sure.

Jeff Fields: 47:55

Being in the position that they were in, because if I had met a random pastor that has no background in it, would I have listened to him? I probably wouldn't have listened to him, and that pastor up in Virginia is the one that told me make your testimony, and that stuck with me for years, and so he had a huge influence on me.

Chris Grainger: 48:19

And it's so important to have that. I mean to your point. I think sometimes this is where some pastors struggle with connecting with people who are walking through this. They don't know how to handle a lot of these things that are being thrown at them these days. I'm not picking on all the pastors, but for that pastor who is a recovering alcoholic and you walk into his office there's some red threads there. He knows the struggle that you're in. He can speak your language in a way that some people just can't.

Jeff Fields: 48:50

Yeah, absolutely. It's so important to seek these individuals out because they often won't seek you out. People don't know if you're struggling unless you tell them Right, and so I think that by being vulnerable again talking about a man being vulnerable that's when you will find your help, because if you just keep it closed up, like I did for years, you're not going to get any better 100%.

Chris Grainger: 49:21

Well, let's take our last break, guys. We'll be right back. Are you a manager, solopreneur or business leader? Are you a husband or father? Do you have people counting on you to guide and direct them personally and or professionally? Get the guidance and confidence you need at the Summit Leadership Development, an intensive, biblically-based mastermind group that transcends the boundaries of conventional leadership. Where there is no vision, the people perish. That's why we focus on the perfect, inerrant Word of God to become strong men and leaders in our business, home and community. Join other men who are ready to speak and embrace truth. Learn how to refine your approach and become a beacon of light in a dark world in all aspects of life. Our intentional monthly sessions will give you an accountability partner to dig deeper throughout the month. The Summit is empowering leaders like you to amplify their influence in the workforce, home and community. Don't miss this opportunity to become a strong leader in a weak world. Secure your spot today at the lion within dot us slash leadership. That's the lion within dot us slash leadership.

Chris Grainger: 50:46

Jeff, I'm curious. A lot of your passion is also helping those in law enforcement, those that were in your prior career field, who are struggling with this. You know, because I mean, just think about it, just think about the dangers of it. One, if you have an addiction to alcohol, you're carrying, you know, loaded firearms. You have a lot of responsibility, you know, just by the role itself, and lots of dangers in the role itself as well. What's your message to them? What do you hope, ultimately? That you're trying to get out with your story to help others in that law enforcement arena.

Jeff Fields: 51:24

I think it's be weak. Be weak and embrace it. And that's like I said before you're not going to grow unless you show that you have some type of weakness and you're willing to build upon it. It's those that put up the facade are the ones that are the most troubled, because the fact that you had to put up a facade in the first place shows that you're not capable of working on yourself, so you have to fake your way through life, and this is what I did I mean, I did this for 20 plus years is put up that facade, and so my message or my assignment for right now is, I feel really passionate about really trying to help other law enforcement or any type of first responder and to let them know well, hey, there's others like you, I'm one of them. And also, it's okay to be vulnerable and you need to get your way out of this, because in law enforcement, like we said before, you may have past complex traumas, but your career is piling up a whole bunch of new traumas on top of it, sure, and then you have the whole culture of law enforcement with those traumas, those new traumas that will say well, be a man, it's not a big deal Shouldn't bother you. You signed up for this. Yeah, I signed up for this. But if I don't have coping skills to begin with and I haven't learned how to navigate my own traumas, how the heck am I supposed to come out of this? You know, feeling fresh and clean.

Jeff Fields: 53:05

So I want other other men to know this, because it's only going to get worse for you. It doesn't have to be alcohol addiction. It doesn't't have to be, you know, you name it addiction. It can be a suicidal thing that comes up Right. I have had a lot of people in my life commit suicide. I contemplated and had suicidal ideations a lot in my life, and that's not where we want to go. We want people to know that.

Jeff Fields: 53:38

Hey, again, you're not unique. Let me tell you a story and let's move on from here, because you're taking the easy way out, and it's not even a way out. You're going to a different place. It's not going to be anything you ever could fathom, and so I just really want to try to I know it sounds cliche. I really want to try to save lives, because you can't keep what you don't give away, and so what I'm learning um daily, I want to share with others and I and I hope that they can pick something up from it and carry it on and help somebody else. And also I really want to push family structure within law enforcement, because that's another issue that we have with many men, not just in law enforcement, but the prioritizing of family and raising children correctly. I mean, I tell people so I have a 7-year-old daughter and my wife is 14 weeks pregnant right now, oh wow.

Jeff Fields: 54:43

So, and it's a girl, so I'm going to have two girls. Now I want my next assignment to be to really try to shepherd all the men with boys, because, hey, I want my daughters to have good boys to play with and maybe one day marry. You know, you better shape up, because I think we fall, or we fell a lot there, with a lot of men. They don't raise their kids well and they blame it on society. No, a lot of it is the foundation that you're setting. So in law enforcement I saw a lot of marriages get broken up and a lot of children suffer because of it, and addiction may or may not have been involved. But I think it's important that we need to show that, hey, we've got to clean up our act, because you're not just responding and helping other people as in the line of duty. You need to respond to yourself. You need to respond to your family. That should be first Um and then really quick here.

Jeff Fields: 55:45

Another issue I have is is the law enforcement agencies themselves have a. They're very misguided when it comes to addiction. They're misguided when it comes to trauma within their their workforce addiction. They're misguided when it comes to trauma within their workforce. I know a lot of. Now that I'm out here touching base with a lot of different organizations, I'm seeing that local law enforcement seems to be a little bit more in touch with helping their employees with addiction and stuff. It's not perfect, but they are the federal law enforcement enforcement, because that's part of my story.

Jeff Fields: 56:16

I was in federal law enforcement for 12 years. Man, they really did not treat me well when they found out I had an addiction, really yeah, and it was disconcerting because I was like, well, you have all the money in the world here, what can you do better? So I really want to push that out there and try to educate managers and and workforces that, hey, this is the, these are the signs you look for and this is how you shepherd your employee along. They're not just a number. You spend a lot of money on them, but you should also love them, and so let's do that, because I felt like a broken toy when I left my career and I don't want other people to feel that way.

Chris Grainger: 56:58

Mm-hmm. Well, man, you have definitely a testimony that makes an impact. I'm sure lots of guys out there listening it'll resonate with, and I mean the story. Like I said, sober From Sin guys. It's available now. We'll get some more details here in a little bit, jeff, but before we wrap up, man, let's do a little lightning round with you to have a little fun here. Dan, it's some heavy stuff we talk about, so maybe we'll wrap up on a lighter note.

Chris Grainger: 57:28

You good with that man, all right, so let's just jump into it, buddy. So what's something that you enjoy doing for fun? You got any hobbies out there, jeff.

Jeff Fields: 57:35

I do. It's an expensive hobby. I collect vintage baseball catchers equipment.

Chris Grainger: 57:43

Vintage baseball catchers equipment. That is the most unique answer to that question we've ever had. So tell me, man, what kind of stuff do you got?

Jeff Fields: 57:50

So I man, I've got. So I've got catcher's masks from early 19th century stuff. I've got a couple 1890 catcher's masks. I've got a chest protector. So chest protectors back at the turn of the century were inflatable Seriously, so they put air in them. So if you look at some pictures and this is probably, I'd say, pre-1920, 1910 down, look at a picture, you'll see it looks like the Missionland man. So they'd inflate their chest protector with air. So I was lucky enough to find one of them. I'm a big eBay guy. I found one of them. Probably spent too much money on it, but that's one of my pride possessions.

Chris Grainger: 58:35

Now the mask back at back in. You know that far back. What were they made out of?

Jeff Fields: 58:40

oh they're, they're metal, I mean, they're heavy all metal yeah yeah, it was like eight. I mean just really quick, just a little bit of facts. Um so pre oh gosh, I won't get mess up my my times here. So pre 19 or, excuse me, 1880, they didn't really wear masks. It was looked at as a weakness, if you did. Okay.

Jeff Fields: 59:02

Um, sometimes they'd wear a mouth guard because the fans couldn't see the mouth guard. Um, and granted, they were standing a little bit further back from the plate. Um, and they're also weren't using the conventional gloves that you think of. They were using almost like a worker's glove, using the conventional gloves that you think of. They were using almost like a worker's glove, like a five-finger glove. So the injuries were bad. But when they started to introduce the mask and then came the chest protector and then came the leg guards, they were ridiculed over and over and over again because it looked like a sign of weakness and that they were changing the sport Right. Obviously it was for the good.

Jeff Fields: 59:43

But at the time, a lot of the catchers would hide the equipment underneath their uniform. That's crazy.

Chris Grainger: 59:50

Yeah, See that pride's back. Then too, guys, it's all around.

Jeff Fields: 59:56

Yes, pride's all around.

Chris Grainger: 59:56

Yes, there you go, pride 100%. So what's your? So it sounds like baseball is your sport. What's your favorite baseball team?

Jeff Fields: 1:00:04

Washington Nationals.

Chris Grainger: 1:00:05

Okay, okay, gotcha, gotcha.

Jeff Fields: 1:00:08

Yeah.

Chris Grainger: 1:00:08

Well, you lived there. What seven years you said? Or six years? Yeah six years? Yeah, Okay, I was there the year that they were in the. Did they win it? I was there a few years ago on World Series weekend just by chance, but man, that was a busy place for sure.

Jeff Fields: 1:00:25

Oh, yeah, yeah, they won the year after we had moved down to North Carolina, okay, okay, so we missed it there you go, there you go, yeah.

Chris Grainger: 1:00:36

So how about favorite food, jeff? What do you enjoy eating, man?

Jeff Fields: 1:00:39

Oh anything. So I'll tell you this really quick If anybody is struggling with alcohol and you get clean, you're going to eat more sugar and candy than you ever did, and probably for the rest of your life, because you got to replace that sugar that alcohol gave me.

Chris Grainger: 1:00:57

So I'm a big candy junkie all right, okay, favorite what's your favorite candy man? Oh it's probably gotta be reese's cups okay, yeah, standard, they're a staple good stuff yeah, yeah, yeah nice.

Chris Grainger: 1:01:11

What? What about right now, man, when you think about the last couple, you know, six, eight months, what's something that you've been struggling with? Because we still still like to to share with our listeners out there that, hey, even though these guys they've they've done some great things You've authored a book, now you're helping people. I'm sure you still got stuff that you're that you're working through.

Jeff Fields: 1:01:28

Oh, absolutely. Um, probably staying in the moment and my confidence, um, I really struggle with, with what's in front of me. The good thing is is I'm not looking behind me as much as I used to, good, um, but I'm looking ahead now, um, and I'm always like, well, what if this, what if that I'm having a baby now, you know what is what? What does life look like, um, instead of just enjoying my time with my family? And so I struggle with that daily, and I know it's okay, just as long as I'm identifying it.

Chris Grainger: 1:02:03

Amen, yeah, amen. When you think about God, jeff, what's your favorite thing about him?

Jeff Fields: 1:02:12

Probably his mercy.

Chris Grainger: 1:02:16

Amen to that brother. Yeah. Let's flip it 180. What's your least favorite thing about the evil one?

Jeff Fields: 1:02:26

Something I've learned with the devil is sometimes the devil will give you gifts that appear to be good, or abundance right. He can give you abundance knowing that you will fall in that abundance. So that's a big thing. I mean, look at all the. If I had a million dollars right now, I would hope that I'd be okay. But if you give me a million dollars when now, I would hope that I'd be okay. But if you gave me a million dollars when I was drinking, I never would have been. Yeah, I wouldn't be talking to you today I mean look at hollywood man absolutely.

Jeff Fields: 1:03:08

I always say people's um temptation or people's urges and what they want and what they can get. If you can get and have everything that you want, like a lot of these really rich people have, that's when they start getting things that the unattainable, trying to get the unattainable, going after children or going after things that you would never even fathom right, it's because you've had too much, You've been given too much.

Chris Grainger: 1:03:41

Yeah, that's right, that's right. Well, let's do two more real quick. So, when you think about the last year, what did you spend too much time doing?

Jeff Fields: 1:03:54

Positive or negative?

Chris Grainger: 1:03:56

It could be either Most guys. It's like social media or something like that oh yeah you know what would you spend too much time on?

Jeff Fields: 1:04:03

yeah, I would probably. I probably have to say social media as well. I mean I'm not a big social media guy. I never have been. I mean, I have my social media for my, my book, my business and my baseball stuff yeah you and you think I'd just use it for those things. Well, no, you go down the rabbit hole every day with other things, Right, and so I? I feel very guilty and we will try to work on it a lot. My family is being present with my family instead of being on my phone.

Chris Grainger: 1:04:32

Amen, good stuff. Yeah Well, last question for you in the lightning round, buddy, is what do you hope to the listeners out there remember the most about our conversation today?

Jeff Fields: 1:04:43

I think I really want to try to push out there that, hey, I want you to remember that it's okay to be weak, it's okay to be vulnerable and don't play the victim. It's okay to be vulnerable and don't play the victim. You know, those are the three main things, Because if you can identify where you're weak, you can start building upon it. If you start knowing that, hey, I have these things that have happened to me, but I'm not going to sit in it and feel sorry for myself, nor am I going to expect anybody to feel sorry for me, because I'm not going to grow if I do that.

Chris Grainger: 1:05:22

Amen. Well, jeff, this has been a great conversation. Where do you want the guys to go to connect with you to get your book? You know, support things that you're doing.

Jeff Fields: 1:05:33

So I've got a website it's the Jeff fields dot com altogether, and from there you can. There's contact information, you can contact me on there and also you can find my book. Ok.

Chris Grainger: 1:05:50

And the book is on Amazon, other places, any other places that you recommend they find it.

Jeff Fields: 1:05:54

Walmart dot com and Barnes andandnoblecom. Okay, I think Amazon's probably more of our friend there you go, there you go, all right guys.

Chris Grainger: 1:06:03

Again it's called Sober from Sin a law enforcement veteran's journey to unraveling addiction and faith. So check it out, get a copy. Particularly if you guys got buddies who are in law enforcement or you're in law enforcement, this could be a great resource for you to use with your friends and colleagues there.

Jeff Fields: 1:06:23

So, jeff, is there anything else you'd like to share today with us today? No, I appreciate you having me on and I love your mission, chris. I think it's important for men to get together collectively and follow Christ openly, so I appreciate what you do.

Chris Grainger: 1:06:36

Amen, brother, amen. Well, it's an honor to serve and help you, and thank you for putting this together for your time today. Buddy, you have a wonderful day. Thank you you too. All right, fellas, I told you it was going to be a good one. So, jeff, powerful story, lots of things.

Chris Grainger: 1:06:52

I made lots of notes while he was talking, specifically that praise over prayer. You know, we just need to make sure we're taking the time each and every day, and if we're going to spend that time talking to the Lord, let's just not go to him with a list of knees, knees, knees. Let's praise him for what he has done for us. And I think Jeff's comment about making your test your testimony Guys, how many times have I talked about this on the show? Your testimony matters and you're going to go through the trials. You're either in a trial, coming out or getting ready to go into one. You know that's the three stages of life, okay, so use your experience of walking through the trials. Let that be a way you support and encourage others who are going through the same trial. Right now, your test can become your testimony. Use it for good.

Chris Grainger: 1:07:40

And the whole idea that he talked about around not being a victim being vulnerable, just walking in the truth of who you are as a son of the king. I'm telling you, if you're struggling with alcohol or any other addictions, this is something that you need help with. Don't suppress it. The best thing you can do is expose it to the lion. Talk to others about it If you need someone to talk about in a safe space. This is why we created the Lion Within Us community.

Chris Grainger: 1:08:11

Hop in, let's chat about this. We have lots of guys who struggle with lots of different things, from alcohol to pornography to infidelity. I'm telling you there's so many different things out there that guys are struggling with each and every day. If you try to hold it back, if you try to hold it in, if you try to conceal it, it's just going to take you down. You need to let the grace of Christ just pour out over you. You need fellow. Let the grace of Christ just pour out over you and you need fellow brothers in Christ to come walk alongside you. Which kind of leads me to my question how do you explain grace to others? How would you do that? It's a fun exercise to think about, but it's also one that's very important as Christian men to lean into. So, guys, if you're enjoying this stuff, again, give us a rating and review. That helps big time.

Chris Grainger: 1:09:03

Share this stuff out. Hit the share button on your phone right now. Share the podcast out with someone else. Just send it to a couple of guys. Hey, check this guy out. This is a pretty good conversation. Little steps like that go such a long way. Head over to thelionwithinus. That's thelionwithin. Dot us to connect with us, to find all our resources, from our u-version devotionals to our community to the summit leadership development, to our our discipleship masterminds. Guys, it's all there available for you, but you can't take advantage of any of that until you head over to the website. Okay, you guys, have a great one. Come back on Friday. We'll have a good fun Friday episode with some tips, a couple of dad jokes and obviously, guys, we'll have a book of the week. So get after it. Have a great day. Just keep unleashing the lion. Good night.